← The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
648: Ed Latimore - Going From Zero to One, Taking Ownership, Positive Body Language, Strategic Hardship, & Hard Earned Lessons From The Hurt Business
01:02:03
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- [00:00]
Ryan Hawk
This episode is brought to you by my friends at Insight Global. Insight Global is a staffing and professional services company dedicated to being the light to the world around them. If you need to hire one person, hire a team of people or transform your business through talent or technical services. Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world have the hustle and grit to to deliver. Hiring can be tough, but hiring the right person can be magic. Visit insightglobal.com learningleader today to learn more. That's insightglobal.com learningleader welcome to the learningleader show. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Go to learningleader.com for show notes of this and all podcast episodes. Go to learningleader.com now on to tonight's featured leader. Ed Lattimore is a professional heavyweight boxer, bestselling author, and a veteran of the United States Army National Guard. He earned a degree in physics from Duquesne University. Ed has gained recognition for overcoming personal struggles with addiction and poverty. We recorded this at our 2025 Learning Leader Growth Summit in Scottsdale, Arizona. This was a private event for members of my Learning Leader Circle. If you would like to be part of my next Learning Leader circle, go to learningleadercircle.com Some of the topics we covered how and why you should work to beef up your obituary. Love that term. Why you shouldn't just dabble. And the importance of building a discipline, disciplined routine. We talk about that and so much more. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Ed Lattimore.
- [02:08]
Ed Lattimore
You have lived and live multiple lives, right? And this idea of a boxer, a physics guy, you're into chess, all this different stuff and you got whole other parts of your story that we're going to get to. I'm just curious if your younger self looked at your current self, what would surprise them the most?
- [02:27]
You know, not all of that. I just, I don't know, man. I'm fortunate. But I think the thing that would surprise my younger self the most is the stumbling blocks along the way, particularly the stuff around addiction and alcohol. Because, you know, I grew up next to a crack house. My mom had her alcohol issues. Everyone in my family had their substance abuse issues to different degrees. Some got involved in the selling side of it, the using side of it all there. So I had this like healthy fear of a lot of this stuff. So that's why I never tried anything harder. But the alcohol stuff, that really would surprise younger me because I know how I am thinking about it now and how I looked at it. And I went through that phase in my life, be like, wow. But on a more positive note, I think the thing that would surprise younger me is how much fun I have being a dad. I didn't know that, like, that was a really fun thing, man. Cause, you know, my dad wasn't really around, so I didn't really have any model for that or anything to expect from that. But, boy, is it. I mean, it's exhausting. And there are these, like, fun moments of frustration. That's the best way to describe it. But it's a really good time. That's. Those are the two big things that I think would surprise me, which, as I'm saying, that has nothing to do.
- [03:57]
With any of that, which is you mentioned your sobriety, and we've talked before, and you said that that's the hardest fight you've ever had. What finally made it stick? What finally helped you get past that? I mean. Or I assume it's still another fight.
- [04:13]
Yeah, still. Still a fight. 13 years. 13 or 14. I'm starting to lose track. And that's a good thing.
- [04:19]
That's good.
- [04:19]
Yeah. What made it so difficult? You ever hear that quote from Anna Karenina by Leah Toy Story? He's like, you know, all happy families are happy for the same reason. All unhappy families are unhappy for different reasons.
- [04:33]
Wait, you're not smart enough.
- [04:35]
What is this quote again, Paraphrasing? It's the Anna Karenina quote. He goes, all happy families are alike. All unhappy families are unhappy for their own reasons. Right. And I start with that, to say that everyone has kind of their own issue or reason for having a substance problem. And you don't need to know that to kick it. Yeah, you can figure that out later, which is what happened to me. I just knew things were getting rough. But as I look back, really close and zeroing. The big thing that happened is as I started to believe people cared about me, I started to believe I mattered. I'd tell this story and then get back to the alcohol thing, but it's. We had a baby shower for the kid, and all these people showed up, all my friends and. Well, mostly my friends, because I'm not really close to my family. And I'm just sitting there, like, choked up because I've got this issue where I don't think, or I didn't think that my friends were, like. They didn't really like me. I had to prove myself. And that's what drives a lot of the things I do. I feel like I gotta prove myself for Affection and. And respect. Just people like me. But they showed up, they took their Sundays and brought gifts for this human that doesn't even exist yet. All because he's my human. So we'll pause there. And I had to tell them. I was like, look, you know, you guys know I have this issue, or maybe you don't, but for me, this means so much. And I. It overwhelmed me. So back to what helped me get sober when I went away for basic training in June of 2013, came back after basic training, AIT in December, went out, tried to party, had a horrible time. And sobriety day, December 23rd. I sat there, I made this list. As I'm making this list, I go, okay, I'm in school now. I'm in the army now. And there's the Uniform Code of Military justice on top of civilian justice, trying to make my pro career matter. And I just started this relationship that's still going on today, right? I don't want to lose any of this. And it hit me that the thing that made it stick, all of that together, though I had spent that six months away building an identity that was completely free of alcohol. It was the first time I did it in my adult life. And I got to see all these people respect me, look up to me, like me, and there was no alcohol involved. And I said, okay, I don't need to keep trying to be liked. I can actually be respected. And I think the two things look similar, but they're very different. When people like you, they want to party with you, they want to do things with you, but a lot of times they will make you behave in a way that makes you less respectable. But when people respect you, maybe you don't get all the invites to the parties, but you start getting invited back to family events, you know? Cause that's when I talk about my family, I'm talking about my friends. And growing up in high school, they invite me around and a little less, a little less. And pretty soon it's like, I see the pictures, things are happening and I'm not there. But it got a lot easier to stick with it when I finally looked and I said, okay, people care if something happens to me. I care if something happens to me. Yeah. And that self love. I hate that word, but that's what it is. That self love, that makes a huge difference in allowing a person to basically not destroy themselves.
- [08:06]
We talked about ownership and not being a victim earlier today. And if there's anyone who could have chosen to be a victim, you're Certainly one of those people who could have made that choice. And you and I have talked about the fact that a judge and a jury does not care about my terrible upbringing if I commit a crime. I use that quote a lot since you originally said it to me. And I think that is the ultimate example of taking ownership of your life. Can you talk more about this? I mean, this is harsh, but the world doesn't care that you grew up next to a crack house with a mom who suffered from addiction and all these awful things. The world doesn't necessarily care if you're going to go choose to harm other people's lives or commit crimes, you're going to jail, right? That's taking ownership when you could have easily chosen just to be a victim and follow in that path and commit crimes and do terrible things. And I'd love to hear you talk more about that.
- [09:07]
That accountability. It has to start with recognizing that you have an impact on the world, for better or worse. Like I always say, you know, like, her goal with raising our children is to make sure that they are a net positive. They make things better. But if they can't do that, at the very least, let's make sure they don't mess anything up. No one wants to give birth to a serial killer, right? That's a net negative. No one wants to give birth to a dope dude. That's a net negative, okay? When you start looking at your place in the world and you realize that you are not in a vacuum, everything you do is gonna affect someone else for better or worse, then you have to take some responsibility. I don't know where I learned this, because I know I didn't learn it at home growing up, but it's always stuck with me, this perspective that everything I do, it's gonna affect other people. And so I started to, even from a younger age, even, you know, stumbling around, I go, okay, I can't do that because it will affect someone else negatively. And that, look, that's a really great start. If you do just that, you probably gonna avoid prison. Like, and you take it a step further and you remember that, like, you got one body and you got one life. And how people are looking at what you do from afar, they're going to judge you, and they're not just gonna judge you. Now we're getting back to that effect on other people. You know, they're going to see how other people interact with you as well, and which people decide to interact with you. You don't want people to cast you off or to distance themselves. You behave in a way that that makes you a net positive to your surroundings. People like to be around you. At the very least, they don't feel like they gotta clutch their purse. Yeah.
- [11:09]
You talk a lot about discipline. You write about discipline and how discipline is kind of like the way out for you has been the way out. How have you become a more disciplined person? What role did that play in helping you get to where you are today?
- [11:25]
The boxing thing, man, this is where it comes from, right? Yeah. And I don't know if we talked about this before, but I tell people a lot. So first we gotta go all the way back to high school. I was terrible at math. Like, bad. In fact, I technically, technically didn't graduate from high school, like, on paper. I had no faith in my quantitative abilities. And, you know, I was smart enough to know then that, like, ah, you know, you can't do anything that is worthwhile to go to school for. Don't bother. Like, okay, so I start the boxing thing. And I was terrible when I first started boxing, like, legitimately bad. There's an amateur fight, I was fighting this guy who was way more skilled than him in doing it for a long time. And I was. I had two left feet, no leverage, it was all arm punches. I swung a few times and I actually fell over and knocked myself down. They didn't count it as a knockdown. And then I took the training seriously. Well, I was always taking the training seriously, but really started to learn, really started to improve. And then I eventually beat that guy and I go on to. I win a state title and then go on the national Golden Gloves and then eventually get another. I didn't win that tournament, but another national tournament. And so all throughout my amateur career, I'm watching myself get better at something that I was really bad at. And the only reason I got better at it is I took accountability. I made the changes when I needed to make the changes. And it was a very disciplined approach. And I watched how that made me, like, a change in my life. I'm sitting here with you right now, you know, because of what I was able to do when I fought, and then what I was able to do when I decided to go back to school. Because, remember, I was bad at math. I said, okay, if I did this with my body, let me do this with my mind. Okay, let's go right back to the basics. All the way back. Back to where I didn't even learn how to do fractions correctly. Rebuild that foundation, do that. And I Said, okay, well, I did this with my body. I did this with an abstract skill, math. Can I do this with my writing? Can I do this in every other area of my life? And each time it's not like. No one says boxing is fun. It's kind of fun to beat a guy up. Like, kind of. But that guy's not like, it's not like he's not trying to beat you up back. And he's good at it too. And math is enjoyable, but it's not very enjoyable when you don't know what you're doing. And you're like a fish out of water. And these problems are hard. And you've invested this money already, but you got to figure it out. And all of this comes back around to the key idea here. How you feel about doing something is irrelevant if it is vital to your success. I live by that. And it has changed the trajectory of my life. I don't look at things like I do or don't want to do them. I go, is this or is this not necessary? And if the answer is yes, then it's gotta be done. And if I don't like it, okay, what am I gonna do? Complain?
- [14:41]
Well, I mean, there's something beautiful about the simplicity of that right there. James Clear was here a few years ago and I told you this. He quoted you. And it's. I've re quoted that a thousand times. I feel like, I think it's about like how hard sometimes it is to do. The first thing to get started, the quote is, the heaviest weight at the gym is the front door. I love to hear what you were thinking when you came up with that. It's beautiful. And then what that means to you, that the heaviest weight at the gym is the front door.
- [15:15]
When I said that, that was back in the 180 character days of Twitter. Yeah. And so what that did. You gotta train your short game, your long game. Right. I started to think in Twitter it's.
- [15:31]
Actually a useful skill.
- [15:33]
Well, yeah, Twitter is what it is. Right. But one of the things that at least when there was that restriction, now they removed it twice. First taking it to 240, and now you can extend your tweets. And then, well, what it's done is it's removed the need for economy of word choice.
- [15:51]
Compression of ideas is something you're good at, James. Like a lot of the best thinkers are able to compress these long thesis statements into bumper stickers, into the.
- [16:03]
They get to the meat.
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Exactly. And I think that's a Very useful skill.
- [16:08]
And, you know, the way they trained a lot of us coming up in school. This essay has got to be a minimum. Like, no, there should be a maximum. There should be a limit. And then you gotta get that idea in there. Clearly. So what? All I'm thinking about is like, okay, well, it's hard. You know, zero to one is the hardest part. What's a cool way to say that? Well, there we go. Okay. And just thinking about that, I just. I'm looking at Jimmy, Sonny, because Jimmy's been incredible, helping me in my journey as a. Now, like, not yet, but the release date's done. They sent me my checks. As far as I know the book's gonna come out. But Jimmy was really helpful, not just helping me get connected with people and talking to me about different marketing aspects of it. But one thing, I don't know if I told Jimmy this. When I sat down to write the book, I didn't really know what I was writing, right? I knew that they paid me to write a book, and if I didn't write that book, they were gonna take that money back. That's what I knew. So I said, all right, let's just start writing something. And that's what happened. I just started to write. Funny story about this. Kind of a side note. The first book I wrote, there were three books. The first book I wrote about 45,000 words. And I remember clearly, I said, this isn't what they want. I don't think they want this kind of book. It was pretty much an autobiography with some key moments in my early life up to when I graduated from high school. So I started writing the other book, the next book. That was a set of themes around, you know, discipline, motivation, dealing with pain, forgiveness, those kinds of things taking different aspects of my life. And then it was time to submit the manuscript. And I looked and I said, I don't know what they really want here. These are two different books. You know what I'll do? I'll combine them. And I did that. And I remember my editor sending me these praise, like, this is the greatest thing I ever read. No, he didn't say that, but that's how I heard him. Okay. And I messaged him, my agent. I'm like, yo, is Noah like this all the time? Or is he just, you know. Or is this real? He goes, nah, I never heard him be so happy. This is great. And then crickets. He got to the second book, and I saw the feedback, and I realized that I was like, oh, wow. I wasn't supposed to write that second book, but it's a good thing I amended that first one. Because he's like, this is the direction you want to go. But if I had just been sitting there thinking about this the whole time, I wouldn't have anything. I'd have nothing. You got to be willing to correct. I tell my wife all the time she's involved in the travel industry, and every now and then she'll get a client, and it'll be the weirdest problem. Ten years knowing this, it'll just be a new problem. And when you first start something, you run into these problems on an exponential curve. You just keep hitting them, and eventually it goes linear, and then it turns logarithmic and you stop bumping into the wall so much. But once you bump into that wall, you know where the new problems are. But you gotta bump into the wall a bunch of times. A lot of people don't wanna bump into that wall. This is where discipline comes in. You gotta go, okay, it's gonna hurt. It's gonna waste time. I'm gonna hate my life. But I will learn something. And eventually what I create is gonna be. Be really cool.
- [19:34]
Well, boxers, not a boxer. I've done it a little bit, but certainly nothing like this. Have to live and die by routine. Like some. There's, like, wrestlers, boxers, like some of the most routine, regimented, kind of work ethic type people. You gotta be in such impeccable shapes. How have you taken this learning of routine and being regimented and getting after it every day to, like, everything outside of boxing?
- [20:02]
First, boxing is really boring. It's boring and it's miserable. I don't know. My coach and I were talking about this last week. I've always believed this. He's always believed it. But this was the first time the idea was said out loud, and we said, yes, there's something wrong with every single person who decides to do this for real. There's gotta be. Most people run from fights. We try and get into them, but the way you do that is you just make it. You just practice until you can't forget. Like, I think in psychology, the term is overlearning. And they've done some research on this that, like, if you were learning a new set of words in a new language and you memorize those words and then you go, I got them. And you, you chill out. And the second person goes, I'm gonna learn those 10 words, and then I'm just gonna say them all the time over and over and over and over again until they don't sound like. You ever say a word so much it doesn't sound like a word anymore. You're like, is this real? Okay, Turns out that person in that overlearning situation, their attention is going to be far superior to yours. And that's what we gotta do in boxing. We practice until we can't forget even if we wanted to. You see guys walking around shadowboxing, and part of it's, like, obsessive. But the other part is just rehearsal and when you realize how well it works, because that's a great place to see how well something works. Either you get it or you'll make a mistake. And you probably won't last to make the mistake more than twice. And in parenthood, that has been a godsend, because it feels like Groundhog's Day, man. Like, every day. Wake up, get a snack, change a diaper, go to the park. Nap time. Wake up, go to the park, get a dinner, bedtime, read a story, tuck them in, go to sleep, wake up, then sort of. And then just. It's just the same thing. And every now and then, I look up and I go, man, why can't you get so tall? Right? Like, when did that happen? But I know that kind of monotony can really break a person. Yeah, you get a tolerance for boredom. And we're getting away from that because phones, there's always something novel to look at, right? I'm reading a book now, real book pages, and I'm like, wow, this is crazy. There's no flashing notifications or anything that pop up. I remember this. It's like the 90s. It's a good time. But my point with saying that is that routine works, systems work. It's the human that gets bored with them. And if you can be bored, you can go really far. Because a lot of it is just. Even at the highest levels, from what I've seen with my own eyes in boxing, it's just the repetition of really basic things, like super basic. If you look at. I don't know if anyone in here knows any of the guys in the sport. Some of these names are bigger or not, but Terence Crawford and Naoya Inouye and Alexander Usyk. You look at these guys practice, and all these guys on YouTube are trying to break these things down and show these crazy, fancy things. But we look at them, people who know all they do, their footwork is just perfect. And it's perfect, not fancy. But these basic things are perfect. And all they've done is just String together these different aspects of the sport that are boring and basic, and they do them so well that they fight unconscious. There's no time to think. So if you can get really comfortable with what it takes to attain that level of muscle memory, then you can do anything, because that's the only way to get good at anything, is just do it a lot.
- [24:03]
It's like you're unconsciously conscious. Like, you just. You get to the point where it just is automatic. Right.
- [24:10]
And that's boring.
- [24:11]
Yeah. You got to be willing to do that. Peyton Manning was famous. He said, when I don't love taking every rep in practice, I gotta stop. I gotta stop. Like, so he took every rep, every single rep in practice. And when that day comes, I gotta stop. So I'm gonna open up in a second. I'm gonna ask one more to give you guys time to think. So I want you to, you know, feel free. I know Ed is free for.
- [24:32]
Look at you guys. Sorry about that. Just facing this way.
- [24:36]
So one of the things. My buddy Brooke Cupps is back there, and we talk a lot about body language. Right. And having positive body language. And I think boxers have to have this man. Right. You're not gonna walk in a ring with bad body language.
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You're gonna.
- [24:52]
And from a leadership perspective, I don't think this is a small detail to be like, ah, yeah, I'll worry about that later. I think it's something to think about all the time. Can you talk me through whether it's intentional or not thinking about your positive body language, entering a ring or going for a speaking gig or anytime, really, in your life, being a dad. But the importance of having positive body language.
- [25:16]
Yeah. I wish I could have remembered the research, but I know it exists. That idea that if you smile, you'll feel happy. You don't smile because you're happy. I mean, sometimes you do, right? Yeah. But you can also work that system in reverse. You smile, you feel happy. It's like you puff up your chest and the testosterone flows because you feel like you're stronger. Yeah. So if you can do that with your body, then you have to remember this. We make a big. I make a big deal. I hope you guys do, too. So I'll say we. We make a big deal about how we talk to ourselves. Right. But what you're saying is accurate. And a lot of people don't put that much energy and that much effort into how they present themselves physically. Not just in body language, but in grooming, but in style. Yeah. Because that is the first way we gather information, we see it, and then you get the feedback. And if you get great feedback, you, it becomes this self fulfilling loop. You go, okay, these people must like how I look. I must be a cool person. Let me act like a cool person. And then they go, he's acting like a cool person. We shouldn't. He is cool. And then it bumps up and that's how we take advantage of it. I think that's how we should take advantage of it. As far as like in boxing goes, right? It's weird, man. You got this posturing that's going on and you guys are about to fight. There's no reason to posture. But we gotta do it. It's this show and it can make a difference. Mike Tyson talked about this all the time. He's got that great monologue where he's like, I'm looking at the guy across from me and I'm looking at his eyes to see. I'm waiting for the moment he looks away and that's when I know I got him. Guys are losing the fight before the fight even starts because they're scared and they betrayed their own self. And the other guys looking to wait to see what happens. So to take and apply this to every other part of life. And that fatherhood thing is really key too. I can't act scared because then they think something's wrong and then I start acting like something's wrong because then I triggered a whole fear cascade. I have to remain calm in the face of a danger. I have to always look for solutions, even if a situation seems hopeless. Because the minute I accept that it's hopeless, why try? I'm not saying there's always gonna be a solution, but I have to keep trying. And then remembering that I can't mope around the house because that's bringing me down. I gotta move around. You gotta lie to yourself. That's pretty much what you gotta do. But it's a very useful law because your brain's dumb. As weird as that sounds, your brain's stupid. Doesn't really know what's going on. If you're walking around all proud and happy knowing you got a big bill due and you don't know how you're gonna make it, your brain's gonna go, man, we must have figured this thing out. Why feel down? Because no matter how bad a situation is, if you let your internal state go to heck, that doesn't help you solve it. Reality's gonna be reality. You can't change reality. But you can Change how you interact with it, how you perceive it. And if you don't take that seriously, reality will steamroll you in these bad situations that you could potentially have found a way out of. Or you take something that is just, this is the coolest thing with babies. Anybody with kids knows this. I learned it kind of the hard way, I guess. But, like, when he was learning how to walk, he falls. They get two responses to this. You freak out and go, oh, is the baby gonna die? Or you just look at him and go, hey, was that fun? Sometimes you start laughing. He's looking at you going, that must be funny. Let me laugh, too. It's the same thing. Like, it's the same thing with people. And that's what leaders figure out, is that when something's going on, if I start acting like it's going, everybody starts panicking. If I act like it's calm and cool. It's like that scene in the Titanic when they're sinking and they just keep playing the music. That's crazy, right? But look, if the maestro's like, we're going to play some music, those guys are like, I guess we're going to play some music. Maybe this isn't that bad.
- [29:44]
So good. Let's open it up. Who's got a question for Ed? What do you think? Yeah, go ahead, Rob.
- [29:49]
Talk a lot about personal accountability.
- [29:51]
Who was some major influencers in your life?
- [29:55]
Mentors.
- [29:56]
And what did they do to impact your mindset?
- [30:01]
So I didn't have a male that I looked up to until I was 28, 26. I just know the age range, because the first person that I really looked up to who really held me accountable was my coach, my professional coach, when I switched. And he made it very clear he never told me to stop drinking, but he made it very clear he disapproved of it. He lived life very clean. Well, lives. He's still alive. He lived life very cleanly. One time, he invites me over to his house for his father's birthday, and there's cake. And I know Tom doesn't think I should eat sweets when I'm trading, but there's cake and it's in his house. So I have a piece of cake and he loses it. And he's like, what's wrong with you? Like, you invited me. The cake is here. I was like, I didn't eat any. Why'd you eat it? That type of accountability. That's the person who I look up to, the first role model that I really ever had. Because for whatever reason When I'm looking at somebody in the media or the tv, that just feels like fiction to me. I know it might be manufactured. I can't really see how the sausage is made, so to speak, so I don't fall for it. I've never had an idol or role model that I can't see or touch. And I didn't have my father around or any positive people around growing up, so I didn't have anyone to look up there too. But when I got to that gym, which was different from where I was when I was, this was the first person. And I said, this guy's living what he's yelling at me about. It'd be one thing if he was, you know, throwing them back and eating cake himself and then flip him. No, he lives it. And so I said, I want to be like this person. So good. Matt, you mentioned the sheer boredom. When you have a day and you are completely bored with the process, what gets you through that text you. Am I going to remember that? I want to give you a magic answer. I really do. I'll do the next best thing. I'll tell you what scared me. What scared me is being embarrassed. And that's what I used is being afraid. I said, okay, if I lose this fight, we'll just talk about boxing and go bigger. If I lose this fight because I was not prepared, it'll be my fault because I decided that today is the day I'm gonna take a day off. And I don't want to be embarrassed. So let me get in there and get in the gym. And then once you get in there, you know, after about the first 10 minutes you're in, it's that zero to one that's the problem. On a much greater scale, I'm not so fear driven anymore. Now it is this sense of responsibility. And that sense develops from having responsibilities for a start. But how does one get responsibility? That process that leads up to it, all of those boring reps, Boring reps. And I hope this doesn't sound too circular, but that's what is a hard, kind of a hard question. There's no one thing that gets me through. It's just I look at it and I see it's what has to be done. And I want. I want the outcome, but I also don't want what happens if I don't succeed. So all of these things come together and it's just in the back of my head, you gotta do this, you gotta do this, you gotta do this. And eventually it gets done or it Doesn't. And I'm very confused.
- [33:30]
Yeah.
- [33:31]
Alyssa, the theme of our summit is at yout Best.
- [33:34]
Audience Member
So what is at yout Best look like, and how has that changed over time?
- [33:39]
Ed Lattimore
So at My best, for me, for a very long time just meant, you know, little things, like I don't have to know what day of the week it is, or I can just go to the grocery store or go on a trip or whatever. I gotta have my time. I have enough money to enjoy my time. It's a good day, and there's no worries. This is what I had my best meant for a very long time, probably, or at the very least, over the last five to seven years, minus two and a half. So, like the better part of the decade now, though? Very much so. What At My best means is that everyone else, everyone in the house is taken care of. And if I have to lose a little sleep to make that happen or miss out on something, that's what At My best means. Now, it's very external. It is about the people around me. If everyone else is doing well, then I know that I've done the best I could. I think what would bug me is if someone is disturbed for some reason, and it was because of something I didn't do that I should have done, you know? So, yeah, that's where the big shift has come, is that it's no longer about how I assess my own time and my own satisfaction. Now it's about the people around me. Oh, go on. Yeah. Mark, why are you so humble? You're so accomplished, but yet you talked about your sobriety being fought. Nah, man. Cause I've had my ego dragged through the mud a lot. Few things will humble you, like looking like an ass. I just can't. I mean, I'm just trying to think off the top of my head. Really big humbling event was getting knocked out on tv. That'll. That'll do it. Because you go and tell all these people to watch you, and then you can let yourself get kind of obnoxious about it, too. And then, like that, it's over and it's not the way you wanted it to go. And you gotta remember that that can suck. Being broke after having money and being broke, you know, the up and down and seeing how quickly life can change. Remembering this is, I think, when people say this a lot of times what I'm about to say, I think what they're trying to do is kind of bring you down in a negative way. But remembering where I came from and interacting with Many of those people still, I know that there's no guarantee, right? Just cause it's going well now doesn't mean it's not. It's always going to go well. And I never forget that. I just, I always feel like I'm one step away from anything putting me into a really bad position. One of the reasons I stopped drinking, for example, you know about the law of large numbers, right? You know, there's a chance a thing will happen. And the more trials you have, the closer the outcomes look like, the theoretical outcome. So like you flip a coin, you flip it 10 times, you get head 7 times. Assuming you know you're not dealing with some shady characters, that coin is not rigged. But you flip it 50 times, it's more like 26 and 24. And then overall you get closer and closer to that 1/2. So crazy stat. Most people who drive under the influence don't get pulled over. It's terrible. It's like one in 2800. And unfortunately, you know, I driven under the influence when I was drinking and you get lucky, get lucky. Four, five, six, who knows? A lot of times and it's like, well, how many times can we outrun the law? Large numbers. And so I stop and I tell that story to set up this part where I worked with a guy, clearly the guy had a problem. But I worked with a guy when I was working at Starbucks, he had five DUIs. And I'm like, man, the only difference between you and me though is that I was lucky. You unlucky. When you remember it, all it takes is some people ain't even bad, just wrong place, wrong time. And you gotta, you gotta remember that you're not that different. You may have made some different choices in accountability, and that's great, but it doesn't elevate your value relative to other people kind of intrinsically. You know, there's like that human value thing and there's like, oh, how much money do you make? Two different things. But, but remembering the first one, that is key. I think more people need to remember that the only reason, you know, lucky, where were you born? Who were your parents? All this stuff comes together and it keeps a perspective that allows me to remember I'm not anyone special. Pretty much, yeah. Go ahead, Mike.
- [38:39]
One of the things you talk about often is the concept of sustained excellence.
- [38:43]
And I think one of the traits for that is being fearless.
- [38:45]
Like just seeing all the competition you've.
- [38:47]
Done and being in the military as.
- [38:49]
You continue to grow older, how do you remain fearless as you continue through your life.
- [38:54]
Funny answer here. I think I know I'm gonna die. I mean, we're all gonna die, right? Some people are in denial of that, some aren't. But one day I'm gonna die, and on top of that, but it's gonna take 100 years, maybe 150. Unless I do something really good or really bad, no one's gonna ever remember me. So that means I gotta make the most of my time here and not waste it. And I value that time. So I have to try at least to do the things that I wanna do and to do them to a high enough level to where I'm like, okay, I didn't just dabble here. I picked up a new skill. I met some new people. As the most interesting man in the world used to say, I beefed up my obituary, like, that kind of thing. So just remembering my mortality is a really powerful driver. It's also why I'm just. Procrastination is like, just an awful habit in general. And the distractions are all around. There's so, like, if you really just wanted to do nothing, you could just sit. Never get out of bed. And on your computer, between the Netflix and the Hulu and the social media, there's all this stuff that'll just take, take, take, take, take. How are you going to give change from a consumer mindset to a producer mindset? Remember, you only got a finite amount of time to produce. That right there. You'll never want for any challenge in the world ever again. If you think that way, that you've only got a little bit of time and most people are just going to be consuming and you can figure out a way to produce. Pat? Yeah. So, Ed, this is kind of a follow on to what you're saying. Just now we look at the, you know, the list of things that you've done at the beginning there, boxing, physics, now writing. And you're talking about only having a finite amount of time, right? How do you go about making the decision of what the next thing's gonna be? You say the hardest thing is to start and decide, what am I gonna start next? Man, I wish when I was a kid that I had, like, got a chance to do stuff. Cause I feel like I'm just playing catch up now. And that's why I keep doing so many other things. As far as figuring out what I'll take on next, there's the path that is grooved out, and it kind of makes the most sense. Based on your previous set of skills and Then there's this, this path and it's a jungle. And you gotta decide, do you really wanna go through the jungle? For example, here is a jungle that I'm pretty sure I'm going to. Not I'm just gonna stop because I keep running the walls. Really wanted to learn Russian for a while. Like it was really fascinating to me. Got a guy in the gym who speaks Russian, it'd be easy. But Russian is just difficult. And it's difficult without the payoff. The Spanish that I know I can use that, I've used it here in Phoenix. And this is in. Never gonna use that. But the fiction. That's why I carry this notebook around, by the way. Not to take notes while writing. But I was sitting up there before they came and got me. I was just taking notes on the next scene. That makes sense. I wanted to do fiction. I've always wanted to write fiction. I stumbled into this non fiction world, which is cool, but fiction is interesting to me and that's what I've always wanted to do. So that's what I'll do now. And here's like kind of a cool test to try. If you're trying to think about the next thing. Think about what you wanted to do when you were like 10, 12, you know, right when you had like agency but no real responsibilities. What did you do for fun? I wrote stories. I used to, back before computers, in the before times, I used to steal rungs of paper and those binders that were like. It was like this weird kind of fake plastic that you opened up and had the metal. And I didn't write, don't think they were any good. But I wanted to try. And we'll see how we can, how we do now. But that is, that's kind of the path to go. You look at what you find interesting. Then you decide how difficult is it? Is it worth trying out? Are you going to get some from it? And then if it checks those boxes, do it. If it only checks that interest box. But that difficulty box isn't worth it. You let that go. And if it doesn't hit either one, you move on and you'll find it. There's just so much, so much in the world to figure out and do and have fun with. So you talk about the small little boring things and you reference it to boxing. What are the small boring things you do in your process now to maintain your sobriety? So what, the sobriety thing, I kind of cheated in the first year and a half because I was super busy. I Didn't have time to go anywhere. And when I finally went out 15 months in, it was to watch Jon Jones and the Daniel Comeier fight. The first one, anybody who's fans of mma. And there was alcohol on the table. And I was like, I just don't want that. Like, it was a weird thought process. I was like, it was weird, man. It's here, but not interested. So I can answer this question how I approached it initially, but now it's part of me. I've got my sobriety day tattooed on my arm. Little hashtags for each year. When I first started, I knew that I had to make sobriety a habit the same way I made drinking a habit. In retrospect, I kind of did that automatically by just not drinking. But there's more to it. I learned how at first, small steps and then on and on. How to actually talk to people and interact with people without alcohol being the pretense. You know, like, let's get some drinks. A lot of people one happy hour away, one missed happy hour away from being lonely. And I didn't want to be that guy. I didn't want to be boring either when I was. Was not drinking. So I spent a lot of time consciously trying to meet people during the day. Coffee shops, learning to talk, learning to connect, really have a conversation for no other reason than I'm not trying to drink. I won't say I like them because some of them I don't talk to anymore, but it really helped. And so to bring all this together, now that I have like a clear answer and I don't know how much stock you put into, like the Myers Briggs thing. I'm an ENTJ. One of those things they say about ENTJ's for other ENTJ's in the room is that like, we think out loud and then as we're talking, the idea becomes crystal clear. So it's become crystal clear to me and it drives my wife quite Asia. Cause she's the opposite. Is I identified some other positive habit. When you remove something, you gotta fill it with something. And so I found a really small easy one and just stuck with that, stuck with that, stuck with that. And then when that became no issue, you stick with something else. Now, like, I mean, I was never like, I don't wanna step foot in the bar. But I also have no reason to be there at this point in my life. But I can go into a bar, there can't be alcohol around. It's no big deal. Because I started with this Small thing of just talking, trying to talk, which is like, people hate that small talk thing. I love small talk. It's a good talk.
- [46:44]
Yeah, go ahead, Sid.
- [46:45]
I've seen many of the boxing matches. This may be a stupid question, but I'll just ask. When boxers come in, we spoke about, they display a lot of body language and all of that. But in majority of the bouts, you see when boxers walk in, they have the cape down and they're not looking at anybody. Both the boxers are not actually looking at anybody. Is it the show for the audience or is there body language? Is there a language which is communicating between the two boxers? So, like, there's two things going on at the same time and you gotta like, fight them. On the one hand, you don't want to think about anything else. But this fight coming up, some guys come out and they really relax or whatever. And sometimes they're like dabbing people up. But for the most part you're trying to like stay locked in and not be distracted. And then there's the other part where you're like, really don't want to think about this going badly. And there's a possibility it could go badly. So you don't want to think about that either. So you got this thing you don't want to think about, but you got to think about and you don't want to focus on anyone else. But that's the only. Like it's this cacophony and you can't make up anything individually. You just see everything. What's trying to happen here is you're really just trying to create this space. And in this space, nothing else matters. Because boxing is really weird. If anyone's ever boxed, you'll know what I'm talking about. That's what I say. But if you haven't, try to imagine this. No one is doing anything else but looking just at you. That's it. You are almost naked and there's a chance you're gonna get embarrassed, right? All of this is going on. It kind of. It's like I wrote about this once just to myself, and I was gonna use it somewhere, but like, there are like five fundamental fears. I don't think I'll get them all. It's like self mutilation. Not self. It's like mutilation, restraint, invasion. Like something gets in you. Loss of autonomy. Some almost there. But boxing brings up like every fear all at once and not the match itself. But like, as you're leading up to it, the anticipation of this thing. You can't run away something, you're restrained. I mean, like, that's the part just. Even now, when I think about it, just they put you in these gloves, and they gotta put the gloves on before the fight goes. That's obvious. What you don't know, what a lot of people don't know, is that once they. The official comes, checks, makes sure there's a good tape you're in, like, you can't take that tape off if you gotta go to the bathroom, right? That's it. Funny story. A guy I trained with, he had to go to the bathroom once the gloves was on, so the coach had to help him out. So you got all these things going on, and you don't want to give into that fear. You don't even want to give it energy. But it's loud. It's loud and you can't ignore it. So the best thing you're trying to do is just turn everything into a blur. It's like, look over here. I know all these people here. I'm going to just stare at this spot on the wall kind of deal and block it out. Maybe it helps some guys. It doesn't. But you see when guys to zone in, all it takes when we get in there. A lot of guys have said this. I agree with you too. You want to get hit not so hard that the fight's over, but just enough to know, okay, I'm in a fight. This is not paper. I'm not going to crumble. Let's go. And now that brings you real front and center. But up until that point, all you've got, you got this long. It's like they draw it out. I'm watching a fight and I hate how long the opening stuff is drawn out. So I know what it's like. And I know what it's like in there, too. It's like, why can we just start the fight? Okay. Yeah.
- [50:54]
Oh, yeah, go ahead.
- [50:54]
Audience Member
Mirta, you briefly touched on it that you grew up next to a crack house, your mother had substance abuse issues. Like, you are the person you are today. And you've learned the lessons that you know from that upbringing partially, and it's made you into this super centered person that you are today. You mentioned you have children. How do you find the balance of, like, trying to teach your children the same valuable lessons that you've learned from all those horrible experiences? While obviously they live a very different life than what you did. How do you teach them those things in a much more safe and secure upbringing?
- [51:37]
Ed Lattimore
So you familiar with Survivor's bias. The idea is like, okay, we look at the people who succeed as an example of the process and everything that led up to it being successful. So in this context, one might look at me and go, well, you know what you need to do? You need to move out of the suburbs and drop yourself right down next to a crack house and get yourself a pet crackhead while you're at it. Okay, What a lot of people forget. Most people who grow up in my environment, they are not anything close. While I know guys, when I was doing research for my book, I just wanted to look stuff up. And I started going down memory lane and looking up some names and seeing a bunch of guys in prison for different things. So my challenge is not so much because the research, even if the research wasn't clear on this, I've seen it with my own eyes. But the research is clear on this too. The research is very clear. That environment messes you up pretty bad. And I'm had to deal with a lot of things too. My challenge is not how to teach him the lessons from that life. I don't want him to know anything about that because love is a lot better. The challenge for me is how do I get him to know that exists and to know what those people are like and to develop a sympathy and an empathy for them without him getting too close to it. You know, I want him to know the stove is hot, but I don't want him to touch it. Problem is, as a good friend of mine said, when you play in the mud with white gloves, the mud never gets glovier, right? So I thought about this. I talked to my wife about it. Probably gonna take him to the boxing gym. You know why the boxing gym is great? Because it's this weird microcosm where the drug dealers and the cops are training and nobody, as long as nobody, comes in trying to bring the business. It's like a John Wick at the Continental. That's what it's like. We don't conduct business here, right? And you get to get to see that. Now, boxing is great for this because it's this hard, painful thing and. But it's conducted with respect because it has to be. Otherwise it devolves into a street fight. And those don't have rules, those don't have dignity, those don't have respect. So what I'm doing with my son is introducing him to boxing if he wants to compete. I'm not going to encourage or discourage, but I will probably have an argument and see what happens. But I guess the crux of this is introduce hardship strategically and with awareness. Because the analogy I use, if I give you a weight that's like 2x times your max, you're not gonna be able to move that weight. Nothing will happen. No matter how hard you push, it's not gonna go anywhere. Not only that, but you might hurt yourself trying to move it. But if I step it up incrementally, okay, you're gonna get stronger. You're gonna be able to eventually deal with the other stuff. I think a lot of things we call trauma are a lot like that, that people get hurt really early and really intensely and they can't recover from it. Not that these things are ever good, but it's a lot different. If I pick a guy out the crowd and go smack him up a few times and call them names, he's gonna be mad at me, he'll recover. If I do that to a five year old a few times, they'll be like, what the heck happened? And now that, like, they're too young to grasp and I don't want them ever have to deal with that. So all that together, put a bow on it is I'm introducing hardship strategically and with love, as opposed to I'm just gonna throw you to the wolves and hope you come back with a cape.
- [55:46]
The clothes, man, talk about beefing up your obituary. It's a great one. What do you want your obituary to say?
- [55:54]
Oh, man, you know what? I just hope that on my way out, because when I'm gone, I'm gone. I hope on my way out, I hope my kid remembers that I was like a present happy dude. Because, like, I don't have no real memories of my dad. Like, I have trouble remembering what he looks like, right? And my mom don't really have pleasant memories. My wife, when I met her dad, already passed. I have figured out over the years that her and her mom and her sister, they don't have a good relationship with her mom. So, like, for all intents and purposes, she's got no grandparents. As I get older, I don't want that. I want 100%, okay? Hey, I kind of, I don't mind my parents. He ain't gotta like us. But, you know, I don't want to come up with excuses why want to talk on the phone kind of deal. But as far as when I die, man, you know, it'll be cool. No one's gonna read it, no one's gonna know. I mean, maybe I'll invent something cool or do Something really, really cool, but not really worried. When I'm gone, I'm gone. And it's gonna take a generation or two before it won't matter. I know that's not a cool answer, man.
- [57:06]
It's real.
- [57:07]
But like, I think a lot about that. Like, I'm 40, right? I'm about halfway done here. Hopefully not halfway done. I think I'm Gonna Live to 120, but that's just me. You're a third. But I think about the time I got left. But once it's up, it's up. I guess I'd like to write a best selling fiction book. Ooh, there you go. And yeah, maybe one day I'll get back around to Russian. But it is just a miserable. It's hard. My high school was unique. I got to take Japanese and I took it for four years. And then when my first tried college before I fell out, I took it for another year or so and I was really like, I was that dude, man. What do they call them? Otakus. I loved the Japanese culture. I thought it was really cool. And then it hit me one day, this is a very difficult language and only one country speaks it. And a lot of them speak English. And on top of that, that's a lot. Long flight. I probably won't go. So I lost all interest in Japanese. Russian is a little like that. Except now I don't want to get thrown in for just being an American. I don't know if that is what will happen. I know some fighters that have gone over there, had no problems whatsoever. I just hope, man, people remember that I tried to help.
- [58:29]
Well, the book that everybody in here is going to get is called Hard Lessons from the Hurt Business. And I know, Howard, you worked on it. And I'm just really grateful that you decided to come here. By the way, Ed is also gonna stay with us. Come to dinner. He'll be with us tomorrow. So he's gonna be a regular attendee. He wanted to be an attendee the whole time. And I said, let's make it like a little bit of a surprise.
- [58:49]
And so I. I wanna tell you guys a story. This is cool. So first he invites me and I said, great. And then I was like, man, this is really cool you invited me. Do you want me to do a presentation? He goes, yeah. So I'm putting together the presentation. I get an email, hey, hey, I got this idea. I got this idea. We had James Clear do this thing last year. You want to come and do that? I said, do I ever. Because this is a lot easier than creating.
- [59:16]
No, it worked out, dude.
- [59:18]
It did work out.
- [59:19]
Yeah.
- [59:20]
Yeah.
- [59:20]
But he'll be with us the whole time. You're all going to get his book. I'd like you to, like, order it on Amazon in addition to getting it for me. That stuff matters. It should be a bestseller. I know. It's not like, I mean, it kind of matters, I guess. I want to support Ed and his work for all that he gives to us and gives to so many people. Like, super inspiring, dude. Like, just amazingly inspiring to me and to so many, man.
- [59:42]
You inspire me, man.
- [59:43]
Yeah, I appreciate it. Give it up for Ed Lattimore. Awesome, dude.
- [59:52]
Ryan Hawk
It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are are, send me a note. Ryan learningleader.com Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Ed Lattimore. A few takeaways from my notes. How you feel about doing something is irrelevant. If it is vital to your success. You might have to bump into a wall a bunch of times. A lot of people don't want to do that. If you're willing to do the hard things, you'll be a better person for it. That is the difference between great and good. And then the heaviest way to the gym is the front door. You got to get started. Lace up the shoes. Once you get moving, the momentum will carry you a bit, but you got to get started. Start the thing, whatever it is that you're hesitating to do. Just get started. Start before you are ready and figure it out as you go. And then what do you want your obituary to say? He said, I didn't just dabble here.
- [60:52]
Ed Lattimore
I love it.
- [60:53]
Ryan Hawk
I think the biggest difference between people who leave a positive dent in the world and those who don't is the willingness to fully commit everything you have to something to put your whole heart and soul into it. And in Wintour once said that people respond well to those that are sure of what they want. What people hate most is indecision. So don't just dabble with things. Make a decision and commit everything you have to it. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader show with Ed Lattimore. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that. And you also go to Spotify and Apple podcasts. You subscribe to the show. You rate it, hopefully five stars and you leave a thoughtful review. By doing all of that, you are continually giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon.
- [61:50]
Ed Lattimore
Can't wait. SA.