Podcast Summary: The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk

Episode 650: Michelle "Mace" Curran – Building a World-Class Team, Running an Excellent Debrief, Rebuilding Trust, Feedback Loops, & How To Turn Fear Into Your Superpower
August 24, 2025

Episode Overview

Ryan Hawk interviews Michelle “Mace” Curran—former combat veteran, Thunderbird lead solo pilot, and author of "The Flip Side: How to Invert Your Perspective and Turn Fear Into Your Superpower." The conversation centers on high-performance leadership, the power of vulnerability and curiosity in building strong teams, the art of running debriefs, the process of rebuilding trust after mistakes, feedback loops, and lessons on channeling fear into strength. Curran draws from her unique military experience, offering actionable advice for leaders in any field.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Upbringing & The Foundation of Confidence

• Independence Through Upbringing (03:45-07:24):
  • Curran describes growing up in rural Wisconsin in a hard-working, blue-collar family where her parents supported her adventurous goals, even if they weren’t always physically present.
  • Stories of accompanying her dad on hunting trips as a young girl—often the only girl in male-dominated situations—fostered her independence and comfort in "any room."
  • Her parents invested in her interests by sending her to special camps, reinforcing the lesson that "when an opportunity came by that I got excited about, it wasn’t just an opportunity, it was a possibility and I could go after it." (07:19, D)

2. Entering a Male-Dominated Field & The Role of Naiveté

• Navigating the Fighter Pilot World (08:11-09:59):
  • Curran entered the Air Force when only 2% of fighter pilots were women (now ~4%).
  • Early on, she didn’t feel hampered by gender because of her upbringing, but realized there were “nuances” that became apparent as she advanced.
• The Double-Edged Sword of Naiveté (10:24-12:24):
  • “If I had known just how much the like ‘death by a thousand paper cuts’ would start to wear on me, I don’t know if I would have gone after it.” (10:29, D)
  • Naiveté helped her start, but challenges of high-performance military culture and the pace of learning shook her identity as a perfectionist used to rapid visible progress.

3. Advice for Those Feeling “In Over Their Heads”

• Normalizing the Learning Curve (13:00-15:42):
  • Curran shares that anxiety and fear in new roles is not a signal you don't belong but confirmation you’re a beginner.
  • Biggest mistake: Not seeking help or mentorship, fearing it would reveal she wasn’t cut out for the job.
  • “These feelings of anxiety and fear and stress and inadequacy... are not signaling to me that I am not the person to be in this role… They’re just signaling to me that I’m a beginner.” (13:22, D)
• Self-Fulfilling Prophecy of Isolation:
  • Refusing to ask questions slowed her learning and reinforced impostor fears.
  • Importance of finding mentors and “your tribe” to accelerate growth and build confidence.

4. Navigating Burnout, Setbacks, and Loneliness

• The Dark Side of High Achievement (17:22-21:09):
  • Curran went through a tough period: isolation, professional adversity, a very public divorce.
  • The close-knit nature of military life amplified feelings of failure and vulnerability.
  • Volunteering for assignments away from main base provided “a light at the end of the tunnel.”
• Community & Vulnerability as Healing Agents (21:25-25:19):
  • Curran credits moments when colleagues went beyond platitudes—demonstrating genuine curiosity and vulnerability—with helping her recover.
  • “Curiosity plus vulnerability equals community.” (22:32, D)
  • Leaders make the most positive impact when they know people as individuals, not just performers: “...if you’re willing to create that openness with them... sometimes that means you have to be a little bit vulnerable yourself.” (26:39, D)

5. A Story of High-Stakes Trust: The Near Collision

• Thunderbirds Incident Breakdown (29:14-41:41):
  • Curran recounts a near head-on collision with her new opposing solo pilot during training—a high-tempo, high-risk maneuverer done at a combined speed of 1,000 mph with only visual references.
  • “There was a point where my internal timing clock is like, oh shit, he should be starting to drift to the side... and he’s still not moving. So he is still pointed at me. And I’m like, he’s going to hit me.” (34:19, D)
  • She describes “temporal distortion”—a slow-motion experience common in high-stress moments—and choosing to hold her line rather than risk an even deadlier mistake.
• Debrief & Rebuilding Trust:
  • Upon landing, her co-pilot immediately apologized. Rather than berating him, Curran focused on maximizing learning.
  • “It’s not the mistake that sabotages the trust... It’s if we go into the debrief and they don’t take feedback and they’re not willing to have an open discussion... That vulnerability... will sabotage trust. Like, I can’t trust you if you’re keeping secrets when you mess stuff up.” (44:07, D)
  • The experience accelerated her co-pilot’s learning curve because it gave him an indelible reference for correct/incorrect maneuver spacing.

6. The Debrief: Muscle of Continuous Improvement

• Structure and Culture (46:41-56:28):

  • Fighter squadrons rely on highly structured pre-mission briefs and post-mission debriefs.
  • Objectives are clear, measurable, and aligned with the commander’s intent.
  • After action, every participant—regardless of rank—joins a frank, distraction-free analysis of what went well, what failed, and why.
  • Mistakes are dissected, root causes are sought (“just keep asking why”), and “lesson learned” takeaways are created and shared with the whole squadron.
  • “The level you’re getting from [your team] might be good enough, but it’s not what they’re actually capable of. If you’re willing to create that openness with them... sometimes that means you have to be a little bit vulnerable yourself.” (26:39, D)

• Translating to Corporate America (50:30-56:28):

  • Pre-meeting objective setting and structured, blame-free debriefs can help teams in any field extract more learning, prevent repeat mistakes, and foster psychological safety.
  • Ego is checked at the door—“rank comes off,” everyone learns from mistakes and shares lessons company-wide to build trust and excellence.

7. Feedback Loops, Teaching, and the Growth Journey

• Embracing the Teacher’s Role (58:48-61:47):
  • Young professionals should focus first on building their own skills and resilience through starting before ready, failing, and learning.
  • “Then there’s going to get to a point where you realize you’ve gained a little bit of wisdom... And now you get to reach a hand back, and you get to get with that new grad or that new hire or that person that you can see yourself in.” (59:49, D)
  • Curran notes that teaching others (as an instructor or mentor) is often the most powerful driver of one’s own learning: “There might be no better tool for learning than teaching.” (61:01, C)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On overcoming fear and asking for help:
  "These feelings of anxiety and fear and stress and inadequacy... are not signaling to me that I am not the person to be in this role… They’re just signaling to me that I’m a beginner." (13:22, D)
• On building trust after mistakes:
  "It’s not the mistake that sabotages the trust… It’s… if I give you feedback and your ego doesn’t let you accept it. But if you make a mistake… that’s part of the learning process." (44:07, D)
• On the importance of open debriefs:
  "The egos that people see in Hollywood around fighter pilots, I think there’s some external confidence there… But what they don’t show is the humility that has to happen behind the scenes, like among your peers." (56:28, D)
• On community:
  “Curiosity plus vulnerability equals community.” (22:32, D)
• On leadership:
  “If you’re going to have a high performing team, the only way that team reaches their full potential is if you have that two way flow of communication.” (28:47, D)
• On learning via teaching:
  “There might be no better tool for learning than teaching.” (61:01, C)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:45-07:24: Michelle’s childhood and parental influence
• 08:11-12:24: Navigating a male-dominated profession, realities vs. naiveté
• 13:00-15:42: Dealing with impostor syndrome and the importance of mentorship
• 17:22-21:09: Recovering from personal and professional set-backs
• 22:32-26:39: How community, curiosity, and vulnerability build trust and team cohesion
• 29:14-41:41: Near-collision story and lessons about trust, feedback, and recovery
• 46:41-56:28: Anatomy of a fighter pilot debrief — and translating it to business
• 58:48-61:47: Advice for young professionals: The value of teaching, passing the torch

Actionable Takeaways for Leaders

• Model vulnerability and curiosity—both build trust and psychological safety.
• Normalize asking questions—leaders and new hires alike should see this as a sign of engagement, not weakness.
• Implement regular, structured debriefs—define what success looks like, analyze both wins and failures with no blame, and share lessons learned widely.
• Encourage mentorship and teaching—having to explain processes and ideas to others accelerates the leader’s own growth.
• Maintain feedback loops—teams grow stronger when feedback flows in both directions.
• Practice presence and empathy—show people you care by being present, especially during tough times.

“More learning happens in the debrief than actually does during the flight itself.”
— Michelle Curran (56:28, D)

Summary

This episode goes deep into the mechanics of world-class team performance, drawing critical connections between fighter pilot culture and universal leadership. Through stories of fear, failure, mutual support, and extreme accountability, Michelle Curran and Ryan Hawk provide a blueprint for leaders to help themselves and their teams grow, trust, and succeed—especially when it counts most.