A (4:08)

Everything, man, that I get goosebumps, dude. That makes me feel so good. I'm glad she's doing better. Honestly, what I thought when you said the unicorn, I just thought of money. I thought of, like, a company, you know, the unicorn. That is so much better. What a great story.

B (4:23)

It feels good because she was begging me for years to insert that as a joke just so she could see it and show her friends. And now it's the dedication. So I feel. I feel great about it.

A (4:31)

I love it. I love it. So that's from the very beginning. Now let me go to the very end, because I love stories about people who bet on other people, especially when those people recognize it. So there's two guys, Brian Richards and Craig Shapiro. Is that how you pronounce his last name? Okay, got it. You said Brian Richards, who bet on me before anyone else, and Craig Shapiro, who bet on me when he didn't have to. I got to learn more about Brian and Craig.

B (5:00)

First off, Ryan, I do so many podcasts. These first two questions nobody's ever asked me and they're phenomenal questions. Thank you. I just want to add that in there. Brian Richards was my boss at the Motley fool, where I started my writing career when I was still in college. I was a junior in college and haphazardly stumbled into a job as a writer for the Motley Fool. Had absolutely no idea what I was doing. Completely hacking my way through the first year. And I think Brian Richards, when he did not need to, when there are other people who are much better than me, saw something in me and said, I'll give you anything that you need to become a better writer. Whatever you need. You want to write more, do you want to write less? Whatever you need will make it happen. And I remember just being stunned at the time because I knew accurately this was not like lack of self esteem. I knew accurately I was not that good. But I thought in my own soul, as I think virtually everybody does, I thought, I have the capacity to get better. I enjoy this, and I'm going to learn and try as hard as I can, I can get better. And I think he saw that and he was like, great, whatever you need, I'll do it. And as the years went on, he was my boss for, I don't know, seven years or something.

A (6:03)

And.

B (6:04)

And he was just so unbelievably supportive all the way. And so as I look back, I've now been a writer for almost 20 years. And I look back, it's like I owe all of it to Brian. I owe a hundred percent of it to Brian. If I had had not only a bad boss, but a normal boss, an average boss, I would have quit 19 years ago and found something else to do. And the only reason I'm here doing this is because of Brian Richards. And I'll be eternally grateful for that.

A (6:28)

Now, how about Craig?

B (6:29)

So after I was. I was at the Motley Fool For 10 years, I was happy. It was great. It was and is a great place to work. And I still have very fond thoughts, memories of the Motley Fool. It was wonderful for me. And Craig Shapiro, who runs the Collaborative Fund, reached out to me cold in 2015 and said, hey, I've been reading your blog. I really like it. Why don't you come work for me? Collaborfon is a venture capital firm at that time, a very tiny, basically startup venture capital firm. And I said, look, look, my wife and I had just had our first child. We just bought a house with a big mortgage on it at the time. And I was like, I'm not in the Mood to throw career upside down and do this. And he just kept pushing, pushing, pushing very politely, very professionally. But every couple months he'd email me to say, hey, I really think we should do this, like join collaborative fun and keep writing what you're doing. We'll just make it a new home for you and you can write anything you want, as much as you want, whenever you want, no holds barred. It's just your canvas to paint. And he did not need to do that. Collaborative Fund was a tiny venture capital firm. When Craig was looking at his list of needs and his list of hires, hiring a full time blogger should not have been on that list. So he did not need to make a bet on me. But I don't know if I'd consider it like a patron of the arts or whatever it would be. But he looked at it and he was just like, I want to do. Let's, let's do it. Let's do this together. And I am so unbelievably grateful for that. And so look, those are my two examples. But I think you and everybody listening can come up with a couple examples in your life. Whether it's professionally, friends, doesn't matter what aspect of your life is. When you look back and you're like, you did something for me when you didn't need to. It's one thing if you make a bet on someone when you, when you need to, when it really benefits you personally, that's great. But it's a different thing when people bet on you when they don't need to. It's very special and you should be eternally grateful for it.

A (8:10)

Doesn't it make you want to do it for others?

B (8:13)

Yes. And I'll give you the right answer and the truthful answer.

A (8:17)

Okay.

B (8:17)

Does it make you want to do it for others? Yes, of course. The truthful. The answer is it's hard. And that's why it's so special. That's why I look at Craig and Brian and be like, man, you guys are saints in my life. Because it's hard to do. It's hard for me and you or anyone to take our busy schedule personally, professionally, and say, I'm going to carve out a chunk of bandwidth and time and money and effort to bet on someone who's not going to benefit me at all. It's the right thing to do. It makes me want to do it and it's very difficult, which is why when people do it, you should consider them saints in your life.

A (8:50)

Let me go to Craig real quick. Because looking at it from his perspective, if he perhaps fell in love with your writing, which now millions of others have, and maybe he was one of the early ones to say, like, I want to make my company the home base where Morgan publishes his work, there is a potential massive upside for him, which I'm guessing I don't know the business, but I'm guessing he is now reaping the rewards for making that early bet. So there was upside for him. It wasn't just him donating to the arts. He had to view it as that as well, I would assume.

B (9:24)

I think. I think you're right. And if he was here, that's what he would say. He would say that he has benefited from it. But it didn't feel like that to me at the time. It really felt like, I think because writing has never felt like work for me. It's just what I like to do. Like, if you were a athlete or a musician, it's like, yeah, it might be your job that you get paid for it, but it's just. It's just who you are. It's not something you have to do. And so the fact that Craig was saying, hey, even though I'm a tiny, tiny, tiny little firm, come on in and do your thing. Yes, you're right that there was some self interest in there in terms of brand recognition for collaborative fund and whatnot. But in my gut, it just felt like I was just being allowed to do the thing that I love to do every day anyways, and so was going to pay me to do it. It just felt incredible. And also, it's easy for you to put that together in hindsight of like, oh, Morgan, your blog does well and millions of people read it. And then Collaborative Fund. That may be true now, it was not necessarily true back then. It was a leap of faith back then that this was going to work at all. And so the fact that Craig was willing to make that leap of faith meant a lot to me then, it means a lot to me now.

A (10:26)

I love stories where they're full on win, wins. He wins, you win, we win. As the readers, we all win. That shows that things are right in the world. When stories like that, when things like that happen, I love it. Okay, I want to dig in now to some of the things, some of my notes from the Art of Spending Money. As I told you before we started recording, there's no way we'll get to all of them. Not even close, but we'll get to some of them. So this is one that Made me cry. Okay. I'm on the elliptical, at the gym. It's in the morning. You're talking about what money can't buy. And you said you heard a story from a priest that you'll never forget. Okay, this is a priest who delivers the last rights in hospitals. Okay. And he said, he described the difference between what kids say to their parents and when they're about to die. And this priest tells them to tell their parents, quote, what are you most grateful for? Okay, can you take me inside that story of what that priest told you about what the kids tell their parents from both what you deem like, quote, the good, healthy families versus the ones who are not.

B (11:33)

Yeah. So this priest, it's a very difficult thing. Of course, I. I have not dealt with it, but many of your. Your listeners have, of course, of when your parent passes away. So a lot of these people, when they're in the hospital, will come to the priest who's delivering last rites and say, help me. What do I say to my parent? How do I say goodbye to them? I don't know how to do it. Help me. So the priest, as you just mentioned, says, go tell them what you're most grateful for. And he said he noticed over the years that in families where there was a lot of tension, kind of strained relationships, whatnot, the child would, I think, instinctively go in and thank them for something material. Thank you for putting me through college. Thank you for always putting food on the table. Thank you for buying me a car, whatever it might be. The family is where there was a very good bond, like, clearly a good relationship between the parents and the adult children. He said almost every time the child said the same thing, just they'd walk in the room and say, thank you for believing in me. You mentioned you cried or nearly cried. I had the same reaction because I'm fortunate to have a good relationship with my parents. And when I look back, it instantly hit me that, like, that that's what I'm grateful for. And it also gives me a lot of guidance as a father myself. I have two young kids, and like a lot of parents, this is so superficial, but, like, I want to use my money to give them a good life and help them along the way, a good material life. Show them experiences, all of that. But it's also that, you know, you know in your bones and your soul that, like, all they really want is for you to love and believe in them, and nothing else matters from that. And so I love that story as well, Ryan, because it was like look, there is a list of things that money can buy to give you a better life. Things, tools, stuff that you can buy and have an awesome life that exists. There is a longer list of things that money cannot buy. And I always kept that in mind when writing this book. And like all the books I've written, I'm writing this for myself. This is self exploration. This is almost a diary that I'm just. I happen to like. If other people want to read it, go for it. But I'm writing this for myself. And so I always want to think, like, how can I use my money to live a better life? And the answer is, yes, you can do that, but you need to check some boxes first. The relationships with your children, the relationships with my wife, relationship with my parents, my friends, my health, all of that matters before anything material is going to make any difference whatsoever. And so that's why I included that story in the book.

A (13:53)

So we have the psychology of money, which the whole world is read literally. And now we have the art of spending money. Can you walk me through the difference, the fundamental difference between knowing how to make money versus knowing how to spend money?

B (14:09)

Well, I think they're two very different skills. And that seems weird because one of the things that's why I wanted to write this book was there are literally tens of thousands of books written on how to make money, how to work, how to invest. There is so much to be said about that. A lot of it's good, a lot of it's less good, but there's every. That that topic has been addressed so much. There are virtually no books written about how to spend money. And I think the reason why is because most people intuitively assume nothing else needs to be said about it. Nothing at all needs to be said about it. That, like. What do you mean, like. Like spending money? I just. I just go spend it and if I spend more, that's better. I think that's the intuition. And I think if you've seen particularly wealthier people because they have a magnifying glass on the social issue, it is not that simple. That there are some people who have gotten a lot out of their money and have done a very good job spending it in a way that gave them a better life, there is, I think, even more people. There's a higher percentage of wealthy people for whom it didn't do that much and they really didn't do a good job. They're trying to fill a hole in their life with money, with spending with stuff that could not be filled with a bigger house or a faster car. They were buying things that society told them they should like, even if they didn't actually like it. They were chasing their peers. They were trying to insert themselves on the hierarchy ladder to have a bigger house than their neighbors, a faster car than their co workers, whatever it might be, and it didn't work for them. And so I think it's a. It's a much more complicated topic than we give it credit to. And I've noticed this in. In my own life, as I said earlier, just writing this for myself, I took a step back and I said, when in my life have I been envious of other people? And why. Why was that? What was I trying to get at? What was the hole I was trying to fill? When have I been jealous of other people? When have I been totally content? When have I been happiest? What purchases made me the happiest? Which ones fell completely flat? It was just asking those questions about my own life, observing people in my life, my friends, and then trying to observe other people across society. What's worked for them, what is clearly not. The book is called the Art of Spending Money. It is not called the Science of Spending Money because there is no such thing as a science of spending money. It is a very personal endeavor. What works for me might not work for you, and we're all very different, but that to me was one of the most interesting parts. Is that because it's not a science, you can't just say, you know, they have the cliches of like, by experiences, not things. It's not bad advice. But you can't make a formula like that because everyone is very different. And the reason we're different is because we have very different paths, different genetic wiring and different experiences in our past. And therefore, my desires are based on a mental model and trying to fill a hole that is unique to my past and yours as well. So that's why, like, this is not a spreadsheet endeavor. This is not a formulaic endeavor where we can just say, spending money on this is good and this is bad. It's this deep psychological collage that we're trying to make sense of. And I think a lot of people, again, like society, will tell you very clear what you are supposed to like. Sometimes it's true, and sometimes it is very not. And so that's why I wrote this book. I thought it was just a very interesting path to go down in which very little had been said about before.

A (17:18)

One of the things you write about is observing in your life, what actually makes you happy from the money you spend? I liked that question. I did that audit for this year. And you as a skier, I thought I'd bring up this personal story of mine. I took my family on a ski vacation, and as you know, ski vacations, they cost money. And so we have our daughters, our teenagers, and then our youngest one there. And there's some learning to ski, there's some tears happening on that trip. But by the end of it, we go to Park City and Deer Valley and Alta, and it was an amazing trip. But when I really, really analyze them, this is like a Morgan Housel thing to say, when I really analyze what it was. Yeah, I love going up the lifts together and I love seeing them go from crying to then being pretty good by the end of those seven days. But my wife even videoed one of these times when I had two of my daughters making fun of me, looking at clips of my podcast where I would pucker my lips for no reason as I was listening to somebody talk and watch them make fun of me. And us laughing, falling on the ground, sharing dinners. Right. The skiing was great, don't get me wrong. But what actually made me happy was us staying in a small house together, sharing meals, making fun of each other, falling on the ground laughing. I mean, that's the best. They're literally, to me, there is nothing better in the world. Now, did we have to fly all the way to Utah to do it? I don't know. I mean, that's where it happened. So, so great. But it's just interesting if you actually observe what makes you happy. Some of it or most of it probably doesn't even have that much to do with money. It's like just creating the environment for you to be around the people you love. And to be falling on the ground laughing together is just the best.

B (18:59)

Totally. I think that's part of why a lot of people, particularly families, like travel. It's not necessarily the location, it's not necessarily the view, even though those are great, of course, and worth experiencing. A lot of times you need to get on a plane and fly somewhere else in order to detach from your day to day rigmarole, to spend time with people who you like. I had a very similar experience I wrote about in the book. This was the summer of 2023, not that long ago, my family and I went to Maui, my wife and two kids. And I remember there was a moment, I think it was our first full day there, when I was on the beach in Maui, building sandcastles with my two kids. It was one of those moments where you catch yourself and take a step back and you're like, this is as good as it gets, man. My kids were laughing. We're on the. It's a beautiful sunny day on the beach in Kaanapali, Maui. And it was just like, this is a 10 out of 10. Life does not get better than this. And you have those moments where you're like, oh, like, I'm so fortunate to do this. And then it kind of. It kind of hit me. I was like, if this is a 10 out of 10. I've also had experiences at home with my kids on the living room floor building Legos. And if Maui was a 10 out of 10, the Legos are like a 9 out of 10. It's like, it's almost just as good. And it's like it was one of those experiences where I love Maui. I hope to go back, but what I liked about it was the uninterrupted time with my family. And maybe we needed to do that because if we stayed home, my kids would have been like, I want to go to the neighbor's house. My wife would have said, oh, we got to go. We got to go grocery shopping. We got to mow the lawn. We got you. Maybe you have to go somewhere else to detach. But you should recognize that what you actually like for a lot of people, not everybody, but what you actually enjoy most of the time is uninterrupted time with the people who you love. And so can you spend money in a way that's going to make you happy? Yes. But oftentimes it's indirect. The travel may not necessarily make you happy. The travel can foster time with people who you love, and that makes you happy. The bigger house might make you happy if it makes it easier to have your friends over on Friday night for a barbecue because the friends are making you happy. Not necessarily the living room money can make you happy, but it's often indirect. It's a roundabout, like, second order tier that fosters deeper connections in your life.

A (21:00)

Again, I just like the idea of observing what actually makes you happy. It's on us to do the actual work we've talked about before. We were recording renovating homes. You're in the process of it. I finished one about a year ago. And you talk about, in the book, if you were going to renovate your house, think about the inside more than the outside, because the outside is what the whole world sees, and it doesn't I mean, it matters, but it doesn't really. The inside is where you can actually be with your family, be with your friends. Right. The kitchen is where everybody lives all the time, even our family, a big family of seven in the house. Well, renovating the kitchen is one of the greatest investments we've ever made. It was terrible while they were renovating it, don't get me wrong, is awful. But the end result has created, now we've had it for a year, so many more amazing because it's bigger and we open it up and you know, all the things you do when you renovate and it's created more times of us having friends over, having our family have dinners together, having extended family dinners, because everyone can fit those types of things. That is money well spent. That was an investment in the future of our family and loving our friends and people to come over. That's what the art of spending money, I feel like is all about, is really understanding that and then figuring out, okay, this is what's worth it. Not, you know, the flashy thing that others will see. It's actually what I'm trying to buy is time. I'm trying to buy like time with people that I love. I think that's what your work really helps people see.

B (22:27)

Sometimes you have to put these things in very extreme examples just to understand the point. So here's a very extreme example. Would you rather be a billionaire in a mansion with a private jet and a fleet of sports cars and a yacht, but divorced, in poor health, Your kids don't talk to you, your community despises you. You can be that person or you can be a completely middle class, average, middle of the road, $75,000 a year in income, live in an 1800 square foot house, drive a Honda Accord, but you have a wonderful marriage to your soulmate, your kids love you, can't get enough of you, your community values you and appreciates you, Your friends come over and you guys just laugh until midnight, having the time of your life. Which of those two people would you rather be? If some people said I'd rather be the first, I won't, I won't judge them for that. But I think to me and others, it's so obvious which one you would rather be. You would rather have a lower material status but a higher social status than the reverse. And it's not until you put it in very stark terms like that that you're like, yes, of course that's the case. And that example I just gave you, I just made up that example but those exists if you're driving through Beverly Hills or whatnot. You are passing many 30,000 square foot mansions with Rolls Royces in the driveway who are occupied by people who are lonely and upset and in poor health. And it is very easy when you're driving past that to say, I wish I had their life. I wish, I wish. If only I could be in their shoes, things would be so much better. And the answer is maybe, probably not. It's almost like in a, like a negative way. When I think about the art of spending money. I would venture to say it is 40% about how to spend money to make yourself happier and it is 60% about realizing what money cannot do for you and the boxes that need to be checked, the other areas of your life to invest in before it's going to make any difference whatsoever. One of the really interesting things to come out of behavioral finance just in the last decade is in my mind settling the debate over does earning more money make people happy? And for decades, literally decades, half a century, some studies said yes, some studies said no. Some of the more like metadata that's come out in the last decade more or less shows that if you are already a depressed, anxious, unhappy person, earning more money is not going to do anything for you. If you are already a happy, joyful, content, empathetic person, earning more money will make you happy. It's like it leverages whoever you are in either direction. Which gets back to the point of like there are other things in your life you need to invest in before spending money is going to make much of a difference.

A (25:05)

You say if you want an example of someone that you would call wealthy, right? And you can distinguish the difference between wealthy and rich and others. Have a look at Chuck Feeney. I'm pretty sure I'm pronouncing that right. Can you tell me more about Chuck Feeney and why he is the example of wealth?

B (25:23)

So Chuck Feeney started the duty Free stores that are in every international airport in the world. You get off your international flight and you walk through and you can buy like 7 gallons of tequila or whatever they sell in there and like in those stores, duty free. And he made an absolute fortune. He made about for himself, he made about $10 billion for himself, very lucrative business. Now the well known part of Chuck Feeney's story is that he was probably the cheapest billionaire to ever exist. He lived in like a tiny little middle class apartment, he drove a middle class car, he flew coach. He lived like an ordinary person when he was worth $10 billion. That's the well known part of his story. He gave everything away. I think the statistic was he and his wife kept 2 million for themselves and gave away 10 billion. It's just, it's an extraordinary story. The less well known part of Chuck Feeney's story is that when he first became very wealthy in the 1980s, he started living the life of a billionaire. He had mansions all over the world. He had a private jet, he had a yacht. He lived like you would think a billionaire would. And he realized it was not for him. He realized he just didn't like it. Society told him he should live like that, given his wealth. And he tried it and said, this isn't for me. He has a quote that I love. He said, I realized one day that I was happy when I was giving money away, and I was not happy when I wasn't giving money away. So he just chose to live that life. And what I love about Chuck Feeney is not that he lived that life. I'm not saying everyone should go live like a miser and give away 99.9% of your money. It's cool that he did it, but that's not what I admire. What I admire is that he chose it for himself. He picked it. He said, society tells me to live like this and I don't like it, so I'm going to live like that. He was in total control over his wealth. And a lot of people, even at much, much, much lower levels of money, we don't. You don't have to be a deca billionaire to experience this. The money controls their personality. The money tells them how they should live, where they should live, what kind of house they should live in, how they should dress, how they should travel. The money dictates that for them, and it's in full control over their personality. And a lot of those people are not that happy because they're not using money as an expression of who they actually are to leverage who they actually are. It's like money is forcing them to put on an act and do things and live a way that is not consistent with their personality. So what I really admire about Chuck Feeney is that he used money as a tool to live a better life. He did not let it dictate his personality and tell him how to live.

A (27:44)

I love those stories. I went whitewater rafting yesterday, Morgan, with some of my closest friends and our guide. You know, you can imagine it was in West Virginia, the Upper Gully. It's like one of the best Places you can go in America to go, whitewater rafters, intense. I fell out. Like, we're all I scrambled on. It was amazing. Anyway, our guide, though, he lives in a bus currently. Like, he bought a school bus and he lives in a bus. He's got a kid, he's in a relationship. And to me, we talked to him for, you know, the course of an entire day. We were together, we had lunch, all this stuff. It felt like this dude was doing exactly what he wanted to be doing every day. Is his life perfect? I'm sure it's not, but, man, he seems so comfortable in his own skin and content and happy and appreciative of being out on that water and looking at all the beauty around us in West Virginia. To me, it was like, this guy is wealthy. This guy is living now, if you look at his bank account, guessing he's not, you know, but that to me, felt like a wealthy life. When you see and just you can feel it in people when as they talk to you, that they're kind of doing what they want to do. And it leads me to the simplest formula for a pretty nice life as you write it is quote, independence plus purpose. The independence to do what you want and the wisdom to want to do meaningful things. Can you walk me through the simplest formula for a pretty nice life?

B (29:12)

I always try to avoid formulas for like this because like I said, it's not a science. Everyone's different. But if you did come up with a very simple formula, I think it's that independence plus purpose. It's very difficult to have a happy, content, joyful life if you don't have both of those things almost in equal amounts. You need independence financially and independence of thought. The independence to live where you want, do what you want, spend the time with whom you want that you can get from saving and having assets and not letting the ups and downs of vicissitudes of life to really control your day to day. So you need that. You need independence of thought. You need the independence to believe what you want to believe, not just going along with the tribe of what you have. And then you need a purpose. That purpose is very different for everyone. It can be as a parent, as a spouse, it could be religion, it can be your work, whatever. It might be something bigger than yourself that you are moving to. Everything that I think we know about the psychology of happiness and contentment will lead to those two things that look, the kind of spending that might make you happy might be different for me. Maybe we have different taste in Food. We have different tastes in travel. Like, everyone's different. The common denominator across people is that they need independence and purpose in order to be happy. Very difficult to do it without those two things. And so that I think about that with money, too. For independence, I always view it as, look, I've been a big saver for my entire adult life. Since I earned my first dollar when I was a teenager. I've saved the majority of what I've earned, but I've never viewed it necessarily as savings. I always viewed it as purchasing independence. When I saved $10, I was buying a $10 independence ticket. That's always what it felt like to me, that the higher the savings, the higher the net worth I had. The freer I was to be myself, the freer I was to not let the ups and downs in life that are inevitable for everybody take control over my entire day. And so I viewed it as buying independence and then purpose for me. It's different for everybody. It was clear as day. I think maybe you and a lot of people can relate to this. The moment I became a father, it was like, that's it. There's. There's my purpose, clear as day. Nothing else matters. I don't matter anymore. That's the only thing that matters right there. And so that's my purpose right now, and I think will be for many, many years and decades to come. But whatever it is, you need something that is a little bit bigger than yourself. You will recognize very clearly when people have that. For your rafting guide yesterday, at least, probably part. I'm assuming part of his purpose was his work. He loved it, and maybe there's more to it. He has family and religion, whatever it might be. But you can see it clear as day when people have a purpose in their life, and you can see it clear as day when they don't. When they are just going to work to earn a paycheck and they don't know what they're earning to paycheck for. They don't like. It's clear when you see when someone is just kind of going through the motions. You can spot that just as quickly as you could spot the guide yesterday who loved what he was doing.

A (32:01)

So you and I aren't in this category I'm about to describe. A ton of people are. A lot of my best friends are. Let's say they need to provide for their family, right? So they get a job and then they want to get promoted because, you know, they start having kids and they need more money. To pay for all the stuff that comes with houses and kids and cars and college and weddings, whatever. So some people say, hey, man, you got to get a job because you got to be a provider. That's our job. That's one of our roles. That's part of our purpose, is to be a provider. But they're working at a company and they're. They don't hate it, but they also don't love it. They're just kind of like, yeah, it's good. It's pretty good. You know, I'm a VP of whatever. You know, I have some options. I get a bonus here and I have a good salary and everything's my good, pretty good, people. Pretty good. It's not like, amazing. I'm not itching to get there on Monday, but I'm. It's still good. It's not bad. I don't want to quit. I don't hate it. What about for that person? What advice do you give to them where they're not in a mode of like, I hate this, I gotta stop, or they're not like, I love this. This is my purpose. It is perfect. They're in between those two things. What advice do you give to them with the art of spending money and the. Even the psychology of money of what they're striving to do when it comes to independence, purpose, not loving it, not hating it, just somewhere in the middle.

B (33:17)

Let me give you three very short stories to summarize my thoughts on that. Number one, there's a great quote from Jeff Bezos where he says, if you can enjoy half your job, that's really good, there's no job where you're like, I enjoy 100% of it. That by and large does not exist. Sometimes it's more than others. But if you can enjoy the majority, you found yourself a really good job. So just keeping those expectations in check that, like, work is work, very often there's going to be co workers you don't like, there's going to be tasks you don't enjoy. Keep those expectations in check. One other that comes in mind, I have a very good friend of mine. I've known him for 20 years. One of my best friends, salt of the earth, one of the best guys I know. I love hanging out with him. I've never had a bad moment with this guy. That's not an exaggeration. One of my favorite people ever. And he also earns a decent but not substantial income. And relative to a lot of our friends, he might financially be near the bottom. And it bothers him. He talks about how it bothers him. He expresses that he doesn't like this. And I finally told him one day, I was like, if you are as he is, a good husband, a good father, a good friend, if you're funny, if you're smart, if you're helpful, if you're honest, you have earned 98% of the points I'm willing to give you in life. And if you also happen to be a very successful rich entrepreneur or whatever, I might bump you up another point or two in terms of, like, what I think of you. But let's not pretend that makes any difference whatsoever. I like you because you're a great friend and you're so funny, and I enjoy hanging out with you. Every time we have dinner and go to a bar, I laugh for hours. You think I care how much money you make? And that also extends to his family. He's an amazing dad. It pains me to say this, but I think he's a better dad than I am. Whenever I watch him interact with his kids, I'm like, you got this thing figured out, man. And so I think his kids don't care that he makes less money than his friends either. I always just think of that when I told him that one day, of just, like, putting the priorities together, of just, like, you think this matters? I'm telling you, it matters less than you think. And then the third little thing I'd say, I wrote about this in the Psychology of Money. There's a gerontologist named Carl Pillemer, and he wrote a wonderful book called 30 Lessons for Living, where he interviewed a thousand elderly Americans, a lot of them who are 90 to 100 years old. And the book is him just asking them for life advice. It's a really cool idea, really cool book. And there's a part of his book where he's talking about money. And he says, of the 1,000 people that he interviewed who are 90 to 100 years old, he said not a single one of them, looking back at their life, said, I wish I earned more money. Not a single one of them, looking back at their life, said, I wish I chose a career that paid more. I wish I worked harder. Virtually every single one of them. Almost universal were people looking back at their life and saying, I wish I spent more time with my kids. I wish I was nicer to my spouse. I wish I was more helpful to my community. That was nearly universal. And so if you define risk as what you are going to regret on your Deathbed, which is a pretty good definition of risk. We know, like, statistically, you and I, particularly at this phase of our life, we are not going to look back and say, I wish I worked harder. I wish I had added in another side gig to earn a couple more bucks on the side. What is very likely is that you and I are going to look back at these years when you and I have young kids and say, I wish I spent more time with them. And so statistically, just the base rates of what we're likely to regret. I try to keep that in mind, too, when you are so back to your question. If you're one of those people who might feel like you are in a decidedly mediocre career and whatnot, I value ambition and hard work and success and providing as a husband and father, of course. Absolutely. I would challenge you to think, though, that it probably means less than you think, as hard as that is to wrap your head around.

A (37:00)

You've made me rethink debt, meaning I like to not have any. And I've changed some of the spending and fortunately the income has risen to make it a little bit easier for that. And now the last little piece left is the house. There's no other debt in my life other than that. And that will probably be done soon too. You write, and you've said this before, quote, every dollar of debt that you have is a piece of your future that someone else owns, unquote. Now, some others would say, dude, sometimes you use it and that could help you get richer. You use debt for other things. And I know you, you said last time you paid off your house, you don't have any debt. And again, it helps to like, have a good chunk of money to be able to do that. But I like that idea that thinking it's really shifted how I view it from where I used to be just a few years ago to where I am today. Of like, yeah, I kind of like that. Can you talk more about this idea of every dollar of debt that you have is a piece of your future that someone else owns?

B (38:03)

Well, I'd start with the idea that if I look at my life 10 or 15 years ago relative to where it is today, I never could have seen this path, the good and the bad. I never could have seen foreseen where it ended up. Probably same for you and virtually everybody else. So you start with the idea that your future is very unknowable, extremely unknowable. So that's the first part. And then you add into it this idea that what debt does is it defines your future. Debt tells you, hey, if you take out a 10 year car loan or whatever, 10 years from now, you have to be doing X. You have to be paying $500 a month or whatever it is. It's defining your future. So debt defines your future in a world where you don't have any idea what your future is going to be. And that could be very dangerous. And the point that I think is important is that whenever people think about the cost of debt, they focus almost entirely like a laser beam on the interest rate. That's the cost of debt. And people will say things like, this is cheap debt. Maybe they don't say it anymore, but five years ago they were. And that's a very narrow way to think about debt. I think what debt does is it narrows the range of outcomes that you can endure in your future. So if you have no debt, you can handle a lot of what life throws at you. The ups and downs, losing your job, divorce, medical. You can handle a lot of the curve balls that life is going to throw at you and I and everybody. And the more debt you have, the narrower that channel becomes. And then you start getting into situations where because you have even a modest amount of debt, life is going to throw you a curveball that you can't endure. And that's the cost of debt. It's the narrowing of options and outcomes that you can endure in your life. And you have to add that cost onto the interest rate before you actually understand what that debt is costing you in life.

A (39:41)

I like thinking of the internal versus the external scoreboard and living for that internal one. I'm going to mispronounce these names. I'd love for you to tell kind of the story of them. Crowhurst and Montessor. Yep. No, that's not even close. Can you talk about the internal versus the external scoreboard and those two people?

B (40:00)

So in 1968, the Sunday Times newspaper in London hosted this race around the world. The race was the first person who can sail solo and NonStop will win £5,000. And they called it a race. But the truth is nobody in human history had ever done that before. So the first person who can just finish the race is literally the greatest sailor of all time. So it was a big deal. Drew up a lot of attention. 12 people signed up for the race. Only one of them finished. But there were these two guys, these two sailors who didn't finish, who had by far the most interesting stories. One of them was this guy named Donald Crowhurst, who really had no idea what he was doing. He was at best an amateur sailor. And about three months into the race, his boat sprung a leak. He didn't want to turn around and go home and face the shame and humiliation of people saying, look at you, you failed. He. His career outside of sailing was. Was very mediocre. He had. His business was failing, and so he didn't want to come home and face shame and humiliation again. And he basically spent six months in this little fraud, this scheme that he cooked up, where he would send fake radio coordinates back to England to make it seem like he was still sailing around the world, even though all of it was a ruse. He was just drifting aimlessly in the Atlantic. And when he realized that this scheme of his was not going to work, I detail this in much more detail in the book. But when he realized this was not going to work, he threw himself in the sea and killed himself. And then at the very same time this was happening, a French sailor named Bernard Mor was sailing around the world in this race. And he, unlike Rohurst, he. He was an expert sailor. After nine months at sea, he had actually sailed around the world. He was about to win the race and be crowned the greatest sailor in the world. And it really bothered him because he was like, he just wanted to be at sea alone, by himself. And he realized that when he got home, he was going to face all kinds of attention from the press and magazines. They literally had a ticker tape parade set up for him when he got home. And he wanted nothing to do with that. He hated the idea that he was just a prop for the press and for the sponsors when he just wanted to do what made him happy. He didn't care about getting anyone else's attention. And so when he was just about to win the race, he quit and he turned his boat around and he set sail for Tahiti, where he built a house on the beach and married a local woman and lived happily ever after. And so I use that as an example of, like, Donald Crowhurst just wanted everybody's attention. All he wanted in life was for strangers to look at him and say, you're so great. I'm so proud of you. You've accomplished so much. It's all he wanted. And when he realized he couldn't have it, he literally killed himself. And Bernard Botissier could not have been more polar opposite. He just wanted to live a life for himself. And when he realized that strangers were going to start giving him attention, he was like, hell with that. I don't want anything to do with that. I just want to. I just want to be happy myself. That is, like the most extreme example I found between the internal and the external benchmark. I think the irony is that if you look at those two people, most of us will say, I want to live a life that is closer to Bernard Motessier. There were very extreme examples, but I just want to do what makes me happy. I don't care what anyone else thinks, just what makes me happy. But the irony is that so much of the modern world, modern society, pushes you to living a life closer to Donald Crowhurst. How can I get other people's attention online, on social media? How can I get other people to look at me and say, you're so great. You're so cool with the clothes I wear, the car I drive, the house that I live in, what I post on Instagram, whatever it might be, particularly for young people, that can dominate their life. The external benchmark dominates their life. But the internal benchmark is, I think, what. What people actually aspire to. Even if it's so much harder to actually chase relative to the external benchmark.

A (43:36)

I think everybody listening to that would agree the next part is actually doing it and living that way.

B (43:42)

How.

A (43:42)

How can you get better at living for that internal benchmark versus the external? And what can you actually do to make that happen?

B (43:50)

To me, it's the constant reminder. And you have to constantly remind yourself, because it is not intuitive, that no one's watching, no one's thinking about you, no one's paying attention to your stuff. If they are looking at your material possessions, they're doing one of two things. They are either imagining themselves having that. They're imagining themselves having the sweater that you're wearing, the car that you're driving, the house that you live in. So they're bypassing you. They're just thinking about themselves. Or if they are thinking about you with those things, by and large, they're envying you for them, which means they hate you for having him. They're not. They're not. They're not saying, like, wow, Ryan is so cool for having that house. I'm so proud of him, if any. They're either not thinking about your house, they're imagining themselves in your house, or they're looking at your house saying, screw that guy. He didn't work hard enough. He thinks he's better than me. And so it is very easy to massively overestimate the social reward that we get for having nice stuff. And you have to take a Step back and realizing nobody is thinking about you as much as you are. They are too busy thinking about themselves. That is all over the place all the time. And so I have to remind myself about that because it's very. It's so easy to say, if only I had this thing, people would think better of me. And you have to remind yourself, no, no, no, they wouldn't. No, they wouldn't. They don't care. And they might actually envy you for it, which means they hate you now. And so the message there is not, don't buy nice things. I love nice things. I like nice homes. I like nice cars. I like nice clothes. All of it. The message is like, you are going to overestimate what it's going to do for you. And then once you come to terms with that, it's been more helpful for me to say, okay, they're not going to admire me for that new car, so maybe I shouldn't buy it. Maybe I should use that money to buy what is going to make me happier, which is independence. And again, I don't view that as saving. I view that as purchasing independence. Because then the more independent I am, the more I can wake up and say I can do whatever I want today with whomever I want for as long as I want. And that. That, to me is like the highest purpose of money. That's where you're going to get the highest roi. And so that's what's been helpful for me. The constant reminder that nobody is thinking about you as much as you are.

A (46:00)

Let me run, like, a theory by you just because I love the way you think about things. When I go for walks, I had this conversation with my wife while we were walking. I like walking in neighborhoods with big houses. This is weird, but it makes me think bigger. I like going to events with people who have done really well. Because when I leave those events, whether they're small ones, big ones, have conversations with people that have, let's say, they've done big things within their career. Now, I don't know, their full lives, Right. But the reason why is because it makes me think grander. It makes me think bigger. It makes me feel like I can make a bigger impact. And when I start, like, reading your books and going through this, I think maybe this is misguided, maybe this is wrong. Why do I feel this way? Why do I think this way? Is it good? Is it bad? I don't know if it's either of those things. What do you think about this idea about. I like walking to see big houses because it makes me think big. I like being in rooms with, like, really impressive people where I am not even near the smartest person in the room because it makes me feel challenged and make me think grander and bigger. What do you think about that?

B (47:06)

I want to repeat what I said earlier, that you asked such good questions that no one else has ever asked me. I don't think I've ever told the story, but I can tie so much of my career ambition to one moment. This is probably 2010 or 2011. My wife and I lived in Bellevue, Washington, in the suburbs of Seattle, which is right on Lake Washington. Giant, beautiful lake that is surrounded by enormous mansions from people who've made a fortune in Microsoft and Amazon stock, by and large. And we went kayaking. And so we were not married in our early to mid-20s, let's say, and we went kayaking on Lake Washington. We were paddling around these gigantic mansions. These are $25 million mansions, you know, 30,000 square feet just out of this world. And I remember kayaking and basically telling my. My then girlfriend, now wife, I was like, we need to go home. I need to work harder. I want one of those one day. And it was not envy. It was ambition. It was. I was being driven by that. I was like, what? That is, I want it. And I think when you walk through the neighborhoods of big houses, that's probably it, too. It's like, man, there's another world out there, and I want to work hard to get it. I think this is not black and white, what I'm about to say, but I think it's roughly true. It's a shade of gray, that it's easy to have that feeling when you don't know the people, when you're just viewing their house from the outside or just just paddling past their house. It is more common, although not black and white. If you disagree with this, I probably agree with your disagreement. But it's more common that once you get to know the person, it becomes easier to envy them. To go from being inspired by their success to saying, man, you think you're better than I, don't you? Maybe that's not true for you and I in these situations, but for a lot of people, that's what it is. And so the line between being driven by somebody else's success, which is a very good thing, and then tiptoeing into envy, which is a catastrophe for both of you, is very common. And so I like that, too. I will say I'll go Ahead and name this person. One of the people who has been the biggest inspiration in my career as a writer is James Clear, who wrote the book Atomic Habits Psychology. Money would not exist if it were not for Atomic Habits, full stop. James has inspired me so much, and he is a dramatically more successful writer than I am, objectively. And I have absolutely not a single cell of envy for him because he is the nicest guy you will ever meet. You will not meet a nicer human than James Clear. You will not meet someone who is as successful as he is and more humble than he is. He is another saint in my life, and because of that, I look up to him and I'm like, I adore every bit of this guy, so I cannot envy him. And so I am just inspired by his success, full stop. I will not name names of other writers who are also more successful than me that I don't like their personality. And sometimes I hate to admit this, but it's true. Of course, I'm a flawed human that sometimes I look at their success with envy because I don't like them. I don't like their personality. I think they're jerks. I think they look down upon me and others, and I think about that a lot. James is so unbelievably kind that I am just inspired by his success with no envy whatsoever. But for a lot of these people in those mansions that you and I walk past or paddle past, if you got to know them and saw bits of their personality that you didn't like, it's very easy for that ambition to tiptoe into envy.

A (50:25)

I love James. He lives in Ohio, about an hour from here where I'm standing right now. So I love this writing when he just wrote a James clear dot com. So I'm happy to add on to the Love Festival. And we did a live podcast before Atomic Habit, like, a year before the book came out. And I'm doing wing with him, actually, next Wednesday in Ohio University on campus for all these students. Gonna be amazing. I'm pumped. But talk about as good of a human as it gets. We went to dinner with him and his wife, Christy, who is also equally as amazing of a human as James. It's like two perfect humans got together, and now they have three kids. It's like, I just love Morgan. I mean, I view you as the same way. I love when great things happen to great people, when those great people worked like crazy for years and years and years to make those things happen, and then they get to reap the rewards that's again, back to it. That's when I feel like the world is right. The world is right. When people like Morgan Housel and James Clear have great things happen for them because of all of what you guys have done for others by having the guts to put your thoughts out into the world for everybody to judge. And then we read them or we talk to you and say, oh, my goodness, man, this is really changing my life for the better. So I love, love, love stories like that. One more thing before we run I want to talk to you about. I love stand up comedy. I think they're some of the greatest speakers. They're the modern day philosophers. I think they're some of the smartest humans on earth because the way they think and they make you laugh. You wrote comedians are the best thought leaders because they understand how the world works, but they want to make you laugh rather than making themselves feel smart. And that is so true, like for leaders in general to think about stand up comedians to think about how they make people feel. Not that leaders in the world are going to be the funniest people, but that last part is that so many people in the leadership space want to make themselves look or feel smart or feel better than you, whereas comedians just want to make you laugh. And I think there's a lot to learn from a leadership perspective from those. I'd love to hear what you think when you add on to that.

B (52:33)

Yeah, I mean, if going down the list of the great comics, George Carlin, Jerry Seinfeld, Chris Rock, Bill Burr, whoever they might be, if you strip out the humor, they are so smart. They are observing truths about psychology and society that are just very deep and profound, but they deliver it in a way that makes you laugh. And there's a great quote from Will Smith who says, nobody gives a shit about anything other than how you make them feel. I think that's, I think that's universal in any context. The only thing you care about is how did you make me feel in this interaction? And comedians want to make you laugh, do make you laugh. And so they are delivering profound insights that can teach you about the world, teach you about yourself, teach about others. And they do it in the most incredible way, which is rather than patting their own back and putting themselves up on a pedestal, they're saying, let me make you laugh for the next 60 minutes. And I adore them for that. And I feel like my favorite comics, if I watch their Netflix special, not only do I come away smarter with insights about myself and other people, but I do it in the best way possible. This is not like dense bedtime reading. I'm going to sit here and laugh for an hour. What could be better than that? I think they're some of the greatest people around.

A (53:46)

I'm with you. 100 man the the latest book's called the Art of Spending Money. Simple choices for a richer life. Not surprising. You'll stay up reading it forever if you try to read it before bed. If you're on the elliptical, you'll be going for hours. It's one of those books. It's a Morgan Housel classic. I'm excited for it to get out into the world here soon. Morgan, thanks again for coming back on the show. I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress.

B (54:10)

Man thanks so much, Ryan. Appreciate it.

A (54:12)

Foreign it is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note. Ryan learningleader.com Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Morgan Housel A few takeaways from my notes. The simplest formula for a pretty nice life. Independence plus purpose. The independence to do what you want and the wisdom to want to do meaningful things. It takes work to figure this out. It takes work to earn that independence. But it is worth it. The simplest formula for a pretty nice life. Independence plus purpose. You got to have both. And then what money can't buy. Morgan told a story that he had learned from a priest that he'll never forget. And this is the type of priest that delivers the last rights in hospitals. He describes the difference between what kids say to their parents when they're about to die. The priest just tells them, hey, tell your parents what you're most grateful for. And in families with some issues and problems, the kids usually talk about something that costs money. You know, thanks for paying for my car or, or for college. But in the best families, the ones with great relationships, the kids say the same thing every time. And I think this is something for us who are parents to think about. And they say, quote, thank you for believing in me. Really powerful. And then observe what actually makes you happy. Morgan and I both told stories of family vacations. Mine to Utah to ski, his to Hawaii. And yes, the skiing was amazing. I enjoyed the time on the lifts. I enjoyed the time learning and seeing them overcome challenges. All that was fun. But when I really analyzed the trip, what I really look back on and get emotional thinking about are the in between moments. The times when we're laughing, falling down on the ground because of what one of us did. Sharing meals together, being in a somewhat small house, confined, playing games, making fun of one another, all of those little things or what seem like little things are the absolute best and I think it's worth it to observe what actually makes you happy and then try to do more of those things. Once again I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader show with Morgan Housel. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader and because you continue to do that and you also go to Apple Podcasts and Spotify and you write reviews, you subscribe to the show, hopefully rate it 5 stars. By doing all of that you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis and for that I will forever be grateful. Thank you so so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.