← The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
656: Dakota Meyer - Medal of Honor, The Battle of Ganjgal, Leadership Under Fire, The Loyalty Question, and What America Needs Right Now
01:04:09
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- [00:00]
A
Jim Collins told me on episode number 216 that the single greatest determining factor in my long term success or failure would be my who, who I chose to surround myself with. And that conversation has had a huge impact on how I've designed my business. And one of the most important elements or services that I provide is my Learning Leader circle. And I open up applications one time per year and that time is now. At learningleadercircle.com is where you can apply. Now this is the most inefficient element of my business because I personally read every application and I personally choose who will go on to the next round and then who will ultimately be one of the 12 people to be in my next Learning Leader circle. And I only do it one time per year and that time is now. If you are intentional, intentional about surrounding yourself with others who will push you, challenge you, make you think differently, if you're willing to self reflect and do some work, this could be for you. And you can apply@learningleadercircle.com we meet once per month on Zoom and then we meet one time per year in person for our leadership retreat for members of my Learning Leader circle. So if you'd like to apply, go to learningleader Circle. Welcome to the Learning Leader show presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Go to learningleader.com for show notes of this and all podcast episodes go to learningleader.com now on to tonight's featured leader, American hero, Dakota meyer. At just 21 years old, Dakota's actions during the Battle of Ganjg in Afghanistan saved many lives. When he repeatedly went against his orders and drove into a Taliban ambush zone to rescue trapped soldiers, he became the first living Marine in more than 40 years to receive the Medal of Honor. Today, he's a fighter, fighter, entrepreneur and New York Times bestselling author. Dakota is dedicated to developing leaders who can handle crisis and complexity. During our conversation, you'll hear why Dakota believes his most heroic day was actually his greatest failure. That blew my mind. Then he talks about what he was feeling the day he received the Medal of Honor from President Obama. And he shares his practical blueprint for bringing our divided country together. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Dakota Meyer. First Man, I just want to say thank you for your service to our country, man. You're a true American hero. So thank you very, very much for that.
- [03:04]
B
Oh, thank you. I really appreciate that.
- [03:06]
A
I want to start with a story about when you were 11 years old. Your dad, the person who became your dad, who you call Big Mike, encouraged you to enter a contest. Your school was holding a contest for the best public speaker in each grade. Can you tell me what happened next and what you learned from that time in your life?
- [03:28]
B
Yeah, I mean, there was a speech contest. I entered the contest. I think initially you had to write the speech anyways, you know what I mean? I don't think that. I think it was like a class requirement. And then I entered it. My dad. I did the typical me. I waited till the last minute to write it. My dad sat down and helped me write this speech out. You maybe practice it over and over and over. It was about a cow. I wrote a speech about my cow. I guess it like pulled the heartstrings. And the next thing you know, I'm competing. I think I got second place. But. And it's kind of crazy. Like looking back, it's crazy you brought that up, you know, looking back, how crazy it is that I hated public speaking. And I spent my whole life trying not to be seen by anybody. It's why I was a sniper. Now here I am having to go out and do public speaking 24 7.
- [04:15]
A
What do you. What do you think of it now?
- [04:18]
B
Look, I don't like talking about me, but what I like is being able to share a story or to be able to give people hope. Right? That's what it comes down to. And it's not about me. If it was up to me, I would go out in the middle of nowhere and I would have a flip phone and I wouldn't have Internet or I wouldn't have anything. And I would just stay out there by myself as long as I could. But I think there's a disconnect in this world today is good people aren't telling their stories. You know, the people with credibility and knowledge aren't sharing their stories. And the people without it, they're out there trying to get knowledge and credibility by telling their stories. And so we've got to reverse it. And we need more good people out there doing the second part because I think there's a three step phase to everything in life. You have an obstacle you face. You have to get through that obstacle and on the other side of it and become better from it. Right? That's the second piece. It's very, very important. And then the third piece is you have to share it and how you got through that obstacle. And that's kind of the circle of how you pass on wisdom.
- [05:26]
A
Isn't there something cool about what you Learn both about yourself and just learn in general. When you put yourself in the position of the storyteller, of the teacher, you're trying to get really clear, right? You're trying to get really clear on what you think, what you believe, what the story is, what are the learnings from it. Because you want to help other people, right? So it seems like putting yourself in that position, how has that made you actually a wiser, better leader?
- [05:51]
B
Well, because like, you know, your story doesn't matter if it doesn't help anybody or people don't listen. So there's a lot to that piece of how to deliver it. And communication today especially, it's not straightforward anymore. Used to transmission was a two factor piece, a transmit and receive. And both of those had to happen. And today when you're looking at it, you have to be able to transmit it, you have to be able to say it, right? And then there's so many different factors of diagnosing of what you meant, what you said, what they heard, what they received from it, what they thought you meant from it, and then turning around and making that into an action, right? Because people are smarter, that's why. Because people are so, so smart today, this next generation, hands down. And that's why it's hard. That's why leadership has got to evolve. Trust me on this. We don't have a generational problem. We have a leadership problem that's failing a generation. And that is ultimately what you see going on in society today. And now I'm thankful because I believe in the next six years, seven years, this next generation is going to be so smart. They're figuring out truth and all these other things that they're going to be able to pass, overcome this lack and this inability of terrible leaders that we have in the world today of people, right? And so whenever I'm able to go back and pass it on, the success to passing on knowledge is, is when people get through it and you see them be successful. Like the real power and the real part of making your struggles worth it is when you see somebody else, when you're able to help somebody else get through that struggle and then become successful.
- [07:41]
A
I want to get to your story because part of that story is what you just said, right? The fact that you've been willing to share some of the tough things that you've, you've gone through. And I think that I look at your initial story that we're going to get to and I think, well, this dude is not even like real. He's so Heroic. He's got to be like a machine. To be willing to put yourself in danger over and over, to save lives, literally save lots of lives. And then afterwards, to really struggle with things mentally and then have the guts and the courage to share and to tell people about that. I think it is really, really inspiring. So, September 8, 2009. You know, a lot of people know your story, but there are some who don't. And I would love if you are open to it, to talking about that day, setting it up, what happened, why, why you responded the way you did. I mean, there's just so many learnings to draw from the heroics of that day.
- [08:44]
B
Yeah, I mean, I won't get into, like, the big details of it. I mean, that thing is, is, you know, it's been told 50,000 times. And so, you know, basically we were. I was on a team, an embedded training team. We live with the Afghan national army. And we'd been asked to come down and go and run a mission in a place called the Gangegal Valley. The Gangegal Valley is in a place called the Kunar province. You know, most people know the Kunar province from a very prominent battle called Operation Red Wing, which was the lone survivor, the movie, all that came from there. But this was a terrible place in that timeframe. I mean, this place was one of the most deadly places on the planet at the time. I mean, there were multiple Medal of Honors that came out of there. I mean, I mean, literally when I got there and checked in on my base, you know, Jared Monte had. They named the base after him, and he got a Medal of Honor in the same area up there. And so we were going in to run this mission in the Gangegal Valley. I had brought up some concerns. I had a team. I was on a four man team. It was myself, a Gunnery Sergeant Aaron Kenneth, Lieutenant Johnson and Doc Layton. And then, you know, brought up some concerns about the mission going in that morning. And basically what we were supposed to do was go in and hold what's called a key leader engagement. And it was, you know, this is a typical thing that we did. It was a routine thing that we did of going in and building rapport with the locals. And like imagine a, a town hall. It's kind of like a town hall. And so you go and you meet with the leaders and what can we do? How can we help you? What are the security issues? Like, what are you all facing? You know, just kind of keeping a finger on the pulse in order to support them ultimately. And so that was what this was supposed to be. I didn't have a good feeling about it. A, because the planning B, because I knew about this valley and it was notorious for the level of violence that they were always bringing. I mean, this was like an old school valley. I mean, this was not like. And they were fighters. And so I brought up some concerns with the planning of the mission. I was taken out of the team and I was left with the vehicles. They replaced me with a guy named Gunnery Sergeant Johnson. So we were going in that morning, we drove in, parked, and they got out and started walking into the valley. I could right off the bat see guys running up to the hills. And so that, that was always a sign that they were going to their fighting positions. It's something that typically happens. And so my team had walked in basically to an ambush. It was normal, like in the beginning, like any, in any gunfight, like, there's a lot of chaos in the beginning. It's no different than any problem you have in life. Like when a problem comes down the chute, right, we all have an emotional reaction to it of like, you know, what the hell? So it was kind of chaotic in the beginning. You know, eventually you're just. Your training kicks in. Like, you know, okay, well, this is what I'm dealt. It's like again, in life, like, you know, you just start doing what you got to do to get through it. And that's, that's what it is. And so gun fighting is very simple. You know, you have to figure out where they're at, you have to figure out where you're at, and then you figure out what you've got to get rid of them. And that's, that's ultimately what you do in a gunfight. It's a very, very simple thing to do. So I think the first sign that I knew how bad it was was when you started hearing the radio traffic and requesting for all the assets that we had been promised going in there that you can normally rely on in other places, such as air, such as mortars, all the support elements that are in place in order to give you backup, even all the way down to a quick reaction force, which is a platoon that's sitting back waiting. If you need to amplify reinforcements is what you would call it on the tactical level. They started calling for all these things. They just, it just seemed like they weren't there that day. So eventually I hear Lieutenant Johnson come over the radio and he starts to call in a support artillery mission. And what his goal was with them being the closest to the village. He said they were pinned down. And he'd made that clear. And he wanted to put rounds between him and the village. His response was, after he gave the format that you call in artillery, was it's too close to the village. There'd been a rule of engagement that had been put in place, which if you don't know what a rule of engagement is, it's basically a policy that states what is acceptable, what's not, and you know what the parameters are of what you're doing. Right. So it's basically a law. And so they put a rule of engagement in that you couldn't fire munitions within a certain radius of a village. So they told him no. And he said, if you don't give me these rounds right now, we're going to die. And it was. They said, we'll try your best. And so it was at that point that I knew that we were going to have to figure the situation out on our own. So myself and my driver, Staff Sergeant Rodriguez Chavez, which is an incredible guy, we drove in and we made four or five trips, and each time we were evacuating out the wounded. And on the first trip in though, I heard Gunny Kennefit come over the radio and he stated that he needed a medevac. And so that told me that somebody had been injured. And so he started to give the grid. Eventually he got cut off. And so, you know, we did that for another five or six hours and finally located their bodies. Wow.
- [13:47]
A
There's so much to the story in regards to the support wasn't there that was supposed to be there. That tells me that's a leadership problem and then also an ownership of the problem. You taking ownership over somebody else's problem in order to try to save your teammates lives. Can you walk me through just your mindset and the decisions you made to put yourself in harm's way over and over again in order to be there for your teammates?
- [14:17]
B
Yeah, I think as a leader, look, you don't have to have a title just to be a leader. So first off, leaders are just people too. And you can lead from anywhere in an organization in a position. Leadership comes in many forms. And so what I'll say is, yes, it was 100% I should not be a Medal of Honor recipient. It was not a story of heroism. It's an absolute story of leadership failure at its best. That's ultimately what it was. I mean, in every aspect of it. And it wasn't just one single leader. Failure. It was a multitude of what you're seeing today in leaders, which is like, it is responsibility, hot potato. That's what you see across why all these organizations. That's why organizations are having culture problems. Is this was, you know, this was that typical piece of leaders don't want to assume responsibility anymore. Majority of them don't. I mean, I had to go against orders to go in, right? I mean, I requested three or four times. I was told no each time. And I just did it because it was the right thing to do. And I think that what it ultimately comes down to is what is a leader's loyalty? Where does their loyalty lie? Is it in the people that trust them, to lead them and to protect them? Or is it in the organization in order for themselves to keep getting promoted? Where does it lie? And I think that everybody, every leader has got to identify that right off the bat. They have got to identify that and state that right off the bat. What's more important, the betterment of their people? They're trusted to lead or do you want to do what's right or keep your job? Because they don't coexist all the time? Both cannot be your number one priority because there's consequences no matter which decision you make. And so for me, I made the decision, and my loyalty always lies with the people that I am responsible for. And so, you know, I was on the battlefield, I was able to do something and I was willing to deal with the consequences of taking the actions that I did.
- [16:20]
A
My background's in sports. Yours is too. But then military, after being a football player, and the military is known at least from outsiders, as like, very order driven. You're given an order, you follow it. I think of like A Few Good Men or whatever, like movies and stuff like that. So you're given orders multiple times. Hey, Dakota, do not go in there. Do not get into the fight. You're going to get killed. It's too dangerous. Basically, you cannot do it multiple times. And you defy orders, which again, from outside of the military, we're like, no, you don't defy orders. That's not what you do. Yet you did right because of your loyalty to the people you were serving. What's going through your mind in those moments every time when you go against what you were ordered to do?
- [17:05]
B
These situations are always multidimensional. Like, was my leadership wrong by telling me no, no. I mean, they were putting me first, right? But organizations and leaders today, they are so, so risk adverse that risk comes before results. And that's it, right? Do you want to be successful or do you want to be safe? Do you want to not take chances? They don't live around each other. Like, you can't be successful, do hard things and stay comfortable and be safe. In no world does that exist. And so that's what you had was a battle that day. And, you know, my leaders were right. They were 100% right by telling me and denying me to come in, but it wasn't right for what needed to be done. I was there and I had a job to do. And so for me that day, I'm a peopleist. And so, you know, putting them first and what needed to be done and getting the results of getting these people out, nobody else was going to figure it out, so somebody had to do it. And, you know, and those things become contagious too, right? Like, another thing is about, about leadership. Leadership is nothing more than an influencer, right? And influencers inside organizations. So leadership that comes in and is influencing one way or the other, that is a leader, like an influencer is a leader, because that's what leaders do. Leaders get people to do or they get people to don't. And that's ultimately what leadership is. And so that day, you know, being able to bring people in and to maybe inspire, motivate people that we needed to keep pushing, it was still worth it, you know, but there was nothing formal. It was just the right thing to do.
- [18:39]
A
Again, I'm so grateful that you're here to tell the story, but I am, again from an outsider who hasn't done it, going back in each time to go be there for your guys. What is actually happening? What's. Who's shooting at you? Where are you at? Like, what's it look like? What's it feel like? Do you even have time to think, think, or are you just going like, what's happening? During each of those times when you went back in after your guys, the.
- [19:03]
B
First trip in was the worst with the heaviest fighting. I mean, you got guys shooting at you. I mean, it sounded like, like static. And the static was the rounds passing by you. You know, when, when a bullet passes by you close enough, it makes like a crack sound. Honestly, the best way to, to make the noise is if you hold a sheet of paper up and you take a, a pencil and you hit it, like the tip of it through the pencil. That's the noise, right? It's like a crack. And that, that's what it sound like. But there was so much of that. It was Static. It sounds static going over my head. And.
- [19:32]
A
And are you standing up, like, as a gunner outside of a. I'm on.
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B
Top of the gun. Yeah. So I'm in the turret.
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A
So you're exposed, You're. You're out there. You could easily be hit.
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B
Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was just like, I remember going in, and it's probably the most helpless feeling I've ever felt my entire life on that first trip in, and my Afghan soldiers, they were all like, they were kind of laying down, right? I mean, there was some that had made it out. There were some that were pinned down, and they would lay down and what they would do is they would move their leg or something to let me know that they're alive. But they're like laying down, trying to.
- [20:04]
A
Act like they're dead.
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B
Yeah, well, they're trying to stay down as low as they can. Right. And I remember rolling in and like, these guys were like. It was like three of them that stood up and they were so excited to see the vehicle coming in. Like, help was showing up, right? And they're like sprinting towards the vehicle and, like, a couple of them just got, like, mowed down, and you just felt so helpless that you. You couldn't stop it, you know, and that was the kind of like the first trip. And then you were trying to grab the ones you could and the ones you, you know, you're trying to help the ones you could. And then the second trip in, you know, you would get. Like, the rest of the trips were mainly recovery. I couldn't find my teammates. I was. I couldn't. We were trying to locate them, and we were getting shot at. So what I would do is I would get out of the turret. Like, I would see somebody and I would jump out of the turret and I would run to where that person was and I would try to render aid to them if I could, and put a tourniquet on them. Like, you could only do basic life saving stuff. You didn't have time to. To really get into it, you know. And there was these Ford Rangers, these track trucks that the Afghans were driving. And what I would do is I would drag that body back to the road and then put them in the back of the truck. And if they were dead, I would put them on the bottom. And if they had a chance to live, I'd put them on top so they would find them first when they got back to the casualty collection point. And, you know, you just did that and. And really, like, all you could do is. Is you could put a tourniquet on them, or you could just really just try to comfort them as they died. And that's. That's really all you could do at that moment.
- [21:35]
A
Is this just you and a driver?
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B
There was other people on the battlefield. We kind of linked up on probably the third or fourth trip in. They're getting people on a medevac, but the first couple trips in, it was me and a driver.
- [21:50]
A
Did you think you're gonna die?
- [21:52]
B
No. I knew I was. I knew I was, but I just made a commitment to myself. It sounds so weird, but I just remember thinking, I just. I wondered what it was gonna, like, would I feel it, right? Like, I know it sounds nuts because, like in. In the turret, it's really your shoulders and up that's exposed, you know, the rest of it's got. You've kind of got this steel around you, but you have to expose to be able to shoot, because you've got to, you know, use the sight and so there's no way to kind of stay down. I just remember thinking that, like, would I know it or was it just all going to go black? You know what I mean? And so that was all. But I had made the decision that I knew they were going to kill me, but I was going to make them do it. They were going to earn it, man.
- [22:37]
A
What did you feel like the next day?
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B
Really? Like, I, you know, I went back that evening, put my teammates in body bags, flew them home, and I went back immediately and I. I got something to eat real quick, and then I went back to cleaning my truck and I helped my Afghan soldiers. You know, I was close to my Afghan soldiers. They were just as close to me as the Marines were. So I went over there and helped them with doctoring theirs up and cleaning up their dead as well. They were all my friends and they were all. They were just, like I said, just as close to me as the Marines. So then after we did that, then I went over and just cleaned my truck up, you know, got my truck refitted, restocked it with ammunition, cleaned my weapon systems, and just was ready to go again and just in case whatever was next. Two days later, I jumped on a convoy back and I went back to my base, went back in the house that I lived in, like the little room that we lived in. And, you know, I left there on that Monday with me and my three other guys, and I. I came back on that Thursday and I was the only one that was still alive. And so then I Just started inventorying their stuff up and putting in a bag to send home to their families.
- [23:53]
A
Man, I'm. Yeah, I just. I'm at a loss. It's hard to imagine. It's impossible for anyone else. You're later told you're going to get a medal of honor, even read. I don't know if this story is true, a somewhat funny story that President Obama called you and you didn't take the call because you were working and you said, if I don't work, I don't get paid, right? And so eventually he got a hold of you to tell you, you're going to get that medal. What were you thinking at that time?
- [24:21]
B
I think it was confusing to me. It was confusing because. And this is why, like, situations are so much bigger, right? It's all bigger than what you know or what you think. And that day, to me, and from my perspective, is the single biggest failure of my life. And no matter how you want to make it feel like we try to be emotionally understanding of people at the expense of reality, and it's crushing people, right? Talk about it in sports, if you got the ball at the last three seconds, had the opportunity to score, and you missed and lost the game, did you lose or do you go home and you tried your best? And so for me, like, I mean, my whole team died as a war fighter, but if you take pride or you. You take the title that you are a war fighter, gunfighter, whatever you want to call it, then you live by the ethos of you either get them out alive or you die trying. And if you didn't die trying, you didn't try hard enough. You have to live in a world of absolutes. When you do a job like that. You have to. There is no room, there is no gray area. It's you either live or you die, Period. Period. You know, it's kind of like same thing in sports. It's you either win or you lose. There's no participation trophies. Nobody cares how hard you tried. Nobody cares how hard you work. Nobody cares if you gave your best. If your best doesn't equal to the scoreboard, there's no winning teams out there. There's no legends out there that blame the other team for them losing. So that's why I didn't understand, like, why was I getting an award for my team? Like, I went in to get my teammates out alive, and I didn't do that. They all died, which is, I mean, the biggest failure you can have as a brother, as a gunfighter. And so now, was there a lot of good that was done that day? Obviously somebody thought so. That's why I was awarded the medal. Right? But if you change the narrative of the losses, all because it doesn't feel good, do you ever learn?
- [26:52]
A
What have you learned from that day?
- [26:55]
B
I know the stakes are high. And I know that every single small moment, from thoughts to actions, matter. And I know what the consequences can be. So for me, I don't go through life, which a lot of people do. They go through life not preparing. Instead, they go through life choosing to ride on this false insurance policy that it'll never happen to them. You know, it's like, how many times you think Michael Jordan practice that buzzer beater shot done. How many guys don't do that? Because they never. They just hope that they're not the guy that gets the ball at that buzzer beater because they don't want it. They don't. They can't take that pressure, you know? And so it's like, do you think Michael Jordan just all of a sudden got the ball at the buzzer beater and, like, just shot it and, like, made it? No, he practiced for that. How many times? And so, you know, it's like those moments. And so for me, I know the stakes are high. I know what the consequences of failure feel like. So it's the fuel for me to go out and to pass that on and to live in a way like, nobody's coming. People have got to realize nobody's coming. You know, you can dial 91 1. All you're doing is asking other people to fill in the discrepancies of what you chose not to do. You're just passing on this responsibility onto other people. And so for me, you know, it's a. I know how high the stakes are. I know how valuable life is. And I've been given that not by doing educational piece, but through a knowledge and living it piece. And that's what not letting go of that failure does. But I think where people mess up, though, and where people don't like the feeling of it is that was a failure. But that doesn't mean I'm a failure. I failed, but I'm not a failure. It's not your identity.
- [28:50]
A
Nobody else literally in the world thinks that was a failure, including the President of the United States when he's wrapping a medal around your neck.
- [29:00]
B
Yeah.
- [29:01]
A
How do you feel about this? The fact that literally every other human in the world who read your books has listened to your talk and knows the story now including the most powerful people in the world, say this is a hero, A legitimate, real life, living hero. We don't have a lot of those, like, actual heroes, like, we call people that, but there are very few who actually are. You happen to be one of the few who actually are a living, breathing American hero, yet it seems like you're, like, the only one who. At least to me, it doesn't feel like you think that that's true.
- [29:33]
B
Yeah, because I think that, like, what we try to define it, like, everybody's a hero to somebody, and everybody has the potential to be a hero to somebody. Like, look, I'm not a. I'm not like, the fastest, the best shooter, the strong. I'm none of that. Like, I am absolutely none of that. All I am is I am an example of the potential that's in every human being that has air in their lungs, of what they can do and what's inside of them. If they believe in a cause that's bigger than themselves, and they love people so much that they're willing to do whatever it takes to stop the suffering and pain of other human beings, and even if it's at the cost and up to the cost of their life.
- [30:16]
A
What was that day like? The White House was at the White House. When you're getting the medal, I'm just curious of your emotions, what you were feeling on that day.
- [30:24]
B
It was confusing. I mean, I was 23 years old. I didn't know what it meant.
- [30:29]
A
Geez, that's crazy.
- [30:31]
B
And I've got the whole world watching me. And then you talk about, you know, this expectation of what they put on you because they think you're a hero, right? Like, well, I'm just. I'm just another guy. I'm just a guy that loves people. I mean, one difference in me and anybody else is, is like, there's tons of guys who deserve a medal of honor. Like, there's tons of first responders that deserve way more than that. I mean, there's tons of people out there who've done extraordinary things that have never been recognized. And so, you know, that's the first piece, especially 20 years of war. There's so many guys that you could talk about that just did way more stuff than I did. They're everywhere. Heroes walk amongst us all the time. But what people don't understand is. Is that when you say the word hero, they try to make it like it's something other than just somebody like themselves. And it's not. You know what I mean?
- [31:24]
A
Well, I think part of that, though, is because, I mean, I don't know what I would do. I don't know if a lot of people, if they're in that situation where it's a life and death, probably death situation that they say, I'm going to. Because you could just say, hey, I was ordered to not go. I was ordered to stay in. I'm a good military leader. I'm going to stay. I'm a good Marine. I'm going to listen to the orders and I'm going to stay. It's not my fault. I'm doing what I am told to do. And instead a hero, I think, says the right thing to do is to disobey these orders multiple times to try to save lives, and in doing so, I'm probably going to get killed. That's heroic.
- [32:10]
B
You don't just wake up a hero, though, right? You know, I think people think that it's just some natural instinct in you of, like, yeah, I'm going to go run into this. And I mean, even as a firefighter, like, I still get scared. I was scared to death that day. Like, if you want to know, if you said, hey, describe the most prominent emotion of that day, Fear. I was scared to death. I was scared to death. And so doing what's right. People think that, oh, I'm just naturally gonna want to do what's right. No, you're not. You're naturally gonna want to put yourself first. You're naturally gonna want to choose comfort. Like, it's why we have roads, it's why there's paths. It's why, I mean, people are naturally drawn to. And it's a human instinct of the easy route, choosing comfortable. Right? And that's that. But it's about, you see people, the extremes that they'll go to when they believe in something. And so people got to believe. And like, for me, you don't just wake up and do the hard thing. It starts every day. It's every day, like, do you get up when you say you're going to get up? What I did that day was nothing more than me upholding my end of the deal to my teammate and to my country. Look, when I raised my right hand, the country didn't ask me to choose it or to serve it. I raised my right hand and I said, hey, look, if you allow me to serve you, I am going to always stay ready to be willing to try to find a way to perform the impossible, even if it's at the cost of my life. That was the commitment and the oath that I made. And in return, you all appreciate me, you all respect me, I get to wear the nation's cloth. You all honor me. Like, people do that, right? Every single day, they thank me. Does anybody thank you for your service? People are thankful. They think about that, right? And so now I've got to live up to my end of the deal. And that's all it was, was me upholding the commitment. Just like being a father, just like being a citizen. Just like me being an American. Just like me. Whatever titles you uphold, it's. It's just you doing what, you know, you. You said you were going to do. It's that simple. And I just think that, like, I believe, right? Like I believe in the greater good. And I, I love people. And it's. It's no different today, right? Like, I, I don't pass a car that I feel like I can pull over and help that person if they look like they're struggling. Like, I, I see somebody walking through a. You know, it's always easier to do nothing. It's always easier. You're never going to have enough time. You can always justify. You're too busy. You know, you can always do that. There's always that easy route sitting right there. But you have to choose to be who you say you are. I think it's the only thing we owe the world is to be who we say we are. Are you a good person or are you not a good person? Like, life is simple. You're either good or not. And if you're good, are your actions matching that? Is it conditional?
- [35:07]
A
It feels like you are the ultimate definition of taking ownership. False situations of your life, of unforeseen circumstances that aren't good, right? But I'm going to own it. I'm going to take ownership over. I'm going to do something about it. I'm going to surge into action, whatever that thing may be. But additionally from that, as I talked about the beginning of this, you're also a human, right, who's seen some stuff, who's done some stuff, who's been in the thick of the worst of the worst. And so afterwards that can have really, really damaging effects. What was life like afterwards? And how did you deal with some of the ptsd, some of the mental struggles, you know, potential suicide attempts? How did you handle it?
- [35:57]
B
Look, the one thing my generation got completely wrong is mental health. I think the jury's out on that one. I mean, you know, if you look at the suicide crisis we have going on, this mental Health pandemic that we have in every scene. It's not due to anything other than people not taking care of people and it's getting away from reality. You know, we are so emotionally driven. You'll be able to understand this in sports and you're going to think about two players, the difference. Emotions in sports are very powerful if they're anchored in logic and reality. When reality and logic is anchored in emotion, it's very dangerous. So you know the guys, you know the guys who were very emotional, but they were emotional at the right times and they were able to channel that in order to help the overall goal of winning the game. But you also know the guys that once they got emotional, they were fighting, getting flagstone on them, they were all of a sudden moving you backwards. You know, the difference in those people, right? And that's what you see out there right now is, is we're giving people no hope because we're trying to accommodate their emotions and not bring them back to, to reality and logic. That helps set them out up with discipline and down the road, right? That's reality. And it starts with people's individual health. And so for me, like I came back and people were, they did this with me. I mean, you know, when you looked at me and I was struggling, I was drinking every single day and I was taking all these actions that do you think, I mean, when you're drinking a depressant all day long, what do you think it's going to do with depression? You wonder why you're depressed, make it worse, and then you still have to get up and go do. So you're shoving 1200 milligrams of caffeine down your throat because you're having to overcompensate for all the depressant you've taken, what do you think that that caffeine is going to now do? Cause anxiety, right? And then you add those two up with some trauma. Well, what do you think you got, you got a cocktail of self induced mental health, right? And so I'm not saying that there wasn't some trauma, it needed to be dealt with, right? But you can't deal with something when you are amplifying, when you are just sitting here and feeding the problem, not the solution. And that's what I was doing, and I think that's where the world's at today is when they talk about ptsd, depression, anxiety. Think about this. If the recruiter for the school, if only the guys that didn't make the team came to you and tried to recruit you. Do you think you would want to go be part of that team? No. And that's what you have out there right now. The people who are talking about depression, anxiety, and PTSD are the ones that never got over it, right? They're the ones that, like, it became their identity. You don't see people. That's why I told you the three phases of going through it, the obstacle, then getting through it, and then bringing people through it. You've got a bunch of people that are standing there and still ain't figured out how to get over the obstacle, trying to help the people who are facing the obstacle, and now they're all stuck on that side of it. You don't have the people who've gotten over it and who are better from it and who have found a way to live with it, bringing others through it, and that's where we're at right now in the world. And so I think for me, you know, I got out and I was drinking every day. I was hanging around people who. All they wanted to do was talk about their trauma, their war, combat. I mean, like, look, if I sit here and talk about my teammates dying every day, how do I expect myself to move on? How do I expect. How do you. How are you happy if you're just talking about your problems and what bothers you the most all day long? Right? You know, you're not. You're not. You're not healing. That's not healing. It's like picking the scab off your wound every. Every single day. And so I struggled with that. And then people wouldn't hold me accountable, you know, because I would just look at you, and you'd be like, hey, you're drinking too much. And I'd be like, well, you don't know what it's like for your team to watch your team get killed. I mean, what are you gonna say to me? Right? And so for a long time, people were like, oh, you know, we couldn't imagine what you've gone through. And they're right. They couldn't. But I couldn't imagine what you've gone through. I needed people to hold me accountable. And finally, you know, it wasn't until that. That people did start holding me accountable.
- [39:58]
A
Until, like, are you. You're holding a Glock in your hand from your truck's glove compartment. Is this what happened?
- [40:05]
B
Yeah, that's the place you get to when people keep feeding and they don't. They don't bring you back to reality, you know, like, that there's only one direction of feeding emotions, and that's. That's turmoil, especially when it comes to mental health. And, you know. Yeah. I mean, I. This is not the person I wanted to be. Right. I was not living the life that I wanted to be. I was not helping people. I was not in any position to be who I knew I was, and I couldn't figure out why. That's like. The thing is, like, you know, you. That was the thing you did. You came home and you were this broken service member, and that was kind of like the rest of your life. You know what I mean? That's what it seemed like. It was like a PTSD was kind of like a terminal illness, you know, So I ended up, you know, attempting suicide. I didn't. It didn't. Obviously it didn't go through. I'm sitting here, but thank God it didn't, you know, thank God it didn't. And I made the commitment to myself at that point because the gun wasn't loaded. And I told myself, you know what you can do if you really want to die and you're really going to keep living your life this way, Rack it back and go ahead and do it or go out. And you've got to find a way to get through this and start living a life worthy of their sacrifices. Your teammates, sacrifices.
- [41:24]
A
How are you doing today?
- [41:25]
B
Listen, I wake up and live the best day of my life every day.
- [41:28]
A
Really? Every day.
- [41:30]
B
Every day.
- [41:31]
A
How did you get to such a great place of gratitude?
- [41:35]
B
You know, accountability. I was becoming the thing that I wanted to protect people from. You know, when I looked at it, the most unbecoming thing that there was was when I would justify me not being the best that I could be. And I was justifying it by the sacrifices that my teammates had made. How insane is that? They died so that I could live. And I seen it firsthand. So I know the cost of freedom. I know the cost of and how valuable today is the fact that me and you have air in our lungs and we're able to sit here and look at each other. Do you know how many people. There are people on earth right now that would give anything to have that? And so for us to sit here and use that as our excuse to not go out and make the most of it, to be a good human being, is absolutely unbecoming of anything good.
- [42:37]
A
You're also a dad, Two daughters. How has that changed you?
- [42:43]
B
Well, it's accountability.
- [42:44]
A
Yeah.
- [42:45]
B
They're the only two people in my life that didn't choose for me to be the role that I am in their life, and so I can't be anything that I wouldn't let anybody else be to them. So they deserve the best, and it's my job to give them that. And the only way I can give them the best is if I am the best. I believe, as a father of daughters, I believe that you're. You are. So you date your daughters the longest of anybody. You set the bar for what they're going to accept and what they're not going to accept. And so I want them to have the best. And so the bar is high every single day. Then I got to make sure I set it. Because, look, I. I believe that if your daughters start dating shitty and weak men, it's because you are a shitty and weak man.
- [43:33]
A
Yep. To make it a little light for a second, because it's been deep. So. My daughters make fun of me all the time. It's a daily occurrence. I don't know how anybody could make fun of Dakota Meyer, though.
- [43:46]
B
Like, for my daughters, my daughter's like, they. It's pretty funny. It's pretty funny. People will be like, wait, how old are they again? Eight and nine.
- [43:56]
A
So. Okay. Okay. So. Yeah, go ahead.
- [43:59]
B
Yeah. They tell me I'm cringe all the time, dad. You're cringe? I heard them the other day. There was like, somebody made. They'd made these little action figures of me, and they'd mailed them to my daughter. This was a while back. But, you know, they're definitely not going to keep them. Like, they gonna rip them out of the box, and they're in there playing, and I'm, like, making them breakfast on a Sunday. And I heard one of them go, oh, I'm Dakota Meyer. I used to be cool, but now I'm just a dad. And I was like, hey, hey, you better put that up.
- [44:30]
A
They know. They know about your service, right?
- [44:33]
B
You know, I. They know I'm a Marine, right? But I don't ever talk about it. I don't know that. I don't know if they know about it. Honestly, I. Google's playing. Look, if you're a parent today, you understand that, like, this reality check of Google of, like, them being able to see what's real and what's not. Like, so I don't know what they know. They don't ever bring it up. But, you know, my goal has always been that I know one day they're going to find out. And I just hope that by the time they find out, they're not surprised by the dad that I've shown them and the man that I've shown them that I am.
- [45:08]
A
Yeah, well, you know, I was rereading into the Fire, which is an insanely well written book that seems like a movie. The crazy thing is it's your life. And so I would imagine, you know, maybe at some point they read that and be like, no way. Like, no way that that's our dad. Like that. I just can't even.
- [45:29]
B
That's.
- [45:29]
A
That's crazy. I normally do not talk about current events. Dakota. I like these to be timeless. But you had a tweet recently that I think is a timeless tweet. You actually did this on September 11th of this year because there's a lot going on in the world and the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And you said, for those even mentioning, quote, civil war, you are wrong. That only amplifies our problems. America doesn't need a war. What we need is to vote, to lead, to speak up in schools, to teach our kids history, truth, kindness with strength, and how to disagree without violence. It starts with us being the example. We must not become what we're trying to correct, man. Amen. Say more about that. Because when I hear people talking about civil war or whatever, I'm like, what are we doing? What. Why are we saying that? I understand people are mad, and rightfully so, but civil war, I. Yeah. So when I read that, I thought, this is exactly right. This is the message. Literally, everybody needs to hear what Dakota is saying.
- [46:43]
B
Yeah. I understand the emotions behind it. I understand that people are feeling a lot right now, but feeling in these moments right now is a very good symptom of that. People care. And what I'll say is right off the bat is the people calling for civil war have never done war 100%. So. So if you're getting caught up in these guys talking about civil war or things like that, just understand that they've never done it. Understand that they've never. I don't care what their record says or what they tell you they've done. They've never done it, nor would they be willing to. Right. I think that's. That's dangerous rhetoric. Right. But I also think that this. This rhetoric of choosing violence because you don't agree with somebody is just as dangerous, and you're seeing that. And whether you like it or not, whether you like it or not, for some reason, and I'm not going to get into left or right, but one. There is one side that is choosing violence and has been I mean, you see it like, you can't argue it until we can all come to the table and agree that no matter what, no matter what, death or no matter what wrong inside of our country is not acceptable to induce violence. We can't even talk. We can't talk. You know what I mean? Look, I do not agree with people entering the building the way that they did January 6th. But I also, like, even bigger, don't agree with the burning of cities. Like, it's called peaceful protest.
- [48:16]
A
Yes.
- [48:16]
B
Don't agree with Jimmy Kimmel getting canceled. Right. I think that is wrong. Unless you are inciting and trying to get people to induce violence, there is no cancellation of you. Right. Like, look, now, I think organizations can do whatever they want. Right. I think that if they choose that this doesn't fit what they want to. But I don't think that it's right. You know, the. Organizationally, yes, whoever's paying you can obviously, I mean, people get fired all the time, right. If you don't work on time, you get fired. So I think that people can do that and organizations can. But I think us as a country, unless you are actively trying to get people to go and hurt other people, it's free speech, hard stop. It's a dangerous slope. Dangerous slope. And so we've all got to back off and we have to identify where the lines are at. But the number one thing that's killing us right now, Ryan, and this is it, it's hypocrisy. Yeah, hypocrisy. We are holding other people to a standard that we don't hold ourselves to, period. If you want to talk about the single, single factor to all the problems in, we'll just talk about our country. But as humans, it's hypocrisy. And hypocrisy is going to. To kill us.
- [49:34]
A
I think your voice is so important to be heard right now as, as important as anybody in our country, legitimately, because you've, you've actually been there and done it. You've been in the midst of. Of all of the toughest places on our planet. You've served our country. You serve our country. You seem to be remarkably reasonable, being able to say things are right or wrong and not say like, I'm on this side or I'm on that side, but to be an independent thinker, right? And to be able to say, I'm with this or I'm with that, not based on, again, any right or left, but just being a reasonable person of what makes sense. And I Think you and more who have similar voices like that, who have done what you've done, which is a tiny, tiny percentage of humans on the planet, need to be heard a lot more than some of the voices that we're hearing today.
- [50:30]
B
Yeah, but it's hard. I mean, just being honest with you, like, it's hard to overcome, like, because people don't want to hear that. Like, people like. Yeah, it's like this dopamine fix. You want to talk about ptsd, you know, PTSD is all about this. You know, you talk about this dopamine, you know, you talk about this rising cortisols, all this stuff, right? Like, the same thing, Ryan, comes from negativity. So think about this. People like negativity because it makes them feel right. Like, that's why people get so energized in it, because it amplifies. It's a fight or flight. It's no different than being in combat. Right? If there's some negativity coming at you or some type of conflict, your senses rise. It gives you that high, just like jumping out of a plane or things like that. And that's why people are so addicted to reality tv. That's why they're so addicted to negativity. That's why you go put a comment out on social media. That's not controversial. Nobody says shit. But you turn around and you put out something that's controversial, and all these people want to comment because it makes them feel. It triggers this in them, right? And so all of a sudden, it's no different than coming home from combat. It's the same as coming home from combat. Like, think about this. If you're. If your cortisol levels and all of these levels are risen because of fight or flight, you don't think that gets addictive to people? Yeah, right. And that's why people are struggling so much. Because when I look at you and I go, I always ask questions like, I'm in. I'm in. Listen. We will. I'll hear, listen and flush out any idea, any concept. And I'll just do it by questions. So, you know, you want to talk about civil war? Okay, okay, let's flush it out. What are we trying to accomplish? Who are we against? Identify who we're against. People who don't agree with us. Oh, so is that. That's everybody. At what point? What is success if it's left versus right? So does a civil war come down? Does, like, one side have to be completely eliminated? You don't change a mindset. Or ideas by attacking the idea or mindset, you change it by giving them a better mindset.
- [52:36]
A
I'm sure you see this too when you go out on the road and you speak or you meet with leaders or companies or people and you meet people from all over the spectrum of political landscape, all different parts of the country, bumping shoulders, having conversations. The online world of the craziness of the negativity that you're talking about is not real life. It is not like that. You get out there. Like I said, I travel all over the country, all different places, red, blue, whatever, you know, purple, everything. And I'm like, these people are great. These people are great. They're great people everywhere. But then it's why it's. I think the governor of Utah said it, you know, Spencer Cox, he's like, get off, get off social media and go touch some grass. Go bump into people, have conversations. Obviously there are exceptions and we've seen some examples, unfortunately that have been tragic. But for the most part, you get out there and you have those conversations and you realize, like, most people are great, man. Like they really are. But I do think you need to get offline and just go talk to people, go bump into them, have conversations, listen, ask questions, be curious, ask follow up questions. Just like you're saying is what you do. And I think that leads to a lot better outcomes than arguing with people on the Internet.
- [53:53]
B
Yeah. And I call them, you know, they're these echo chambers.
- [53:57]
A
Yeah.
- [53:59]
B
And now you don't have to just listen to one show, one news network that's trying to tell the truth. You only listen to the people that you agree with.
- [54:08]
A
Yep.
- [54:09]
B
Which is very toxic. And that's what you out there. And I'm with you. I travel all the time. I travel all the time. And I'll tell you, Ryan, like, if I connect with somebody or I don't, it was all my choice. You could throw me and I would challenge anybody. This. Throw me in any room. And I bet you, I bet you I can find a way to connect with them and everybody leave feeling better. 100%. I'll find something that we have in common. We all have more in common. Every human being, you know, and I realize this is a firefighter, like, man, I come up on people and I'll tell you what's crazy, is I come up on a homeless person who's overdosed or whatever it is. You know, there was a point in their life where they never thought they'd be homeless. We're all only a few decisions Away from being where somebody that we're looking down on is at. I've met guys, people who made a bad business decision, lost their family, their wife, lost all their money, then tried to deal with the pain by taking a pill, and the next thing you know, they're homeless. Literally. We're all three to four decisions away from being that. And it's like I. You know, I look at them and I relate to them, and, you know, I understand them. And I. I don't necessarily. I don't have to agree with everybody. I don't have to. Definitely might not be the route that I would have took, but. But you know what? Like, I leave all of them, trying to connect with them on some way because it makes me better. You know, I feel like everybody you come in contact with, like, they all have a key and they can unlock something in you, but it's your job to find the right lock for it, to unlock something in you. And the more people you can let that key unlock something in you, the better human being and the better understanding you have. So we've got to split, first off, education and knowledge. And what that means is, let me ask you this. You take a doctor, technically a doctor, right out of school, knows the book better than anybody, but do you want that doctor working on you? No. Right. Because it's the difference between education and knowledge. And we've got to get more knowledgeable people out there speaking. And the problem is, those who can't do, they teach. We need more that have done teaching.
- [56:38]
A
What? That leads me. My last question for at least this first conversation, Dakota, what is it that you want to do more of? What excites you the most about your current work that you want to put out more of into the world?
- [56:51]
B
I want to bring people together. I want to unite people. I want to put hope back in the world, and I want to do that through truth. Like, I love people. It's unconditional. It's unconditional. It always has been. I believe in people, right? And I believe it's got to go back to love. You know, if you go back to the day September 8th, like, what it taught me the most, and I'm so thankful for that day because it taught me what unconditional love is, and it taught me the power of it. And love, you know, what we've done today is, is we've wrapped love up into this feeling. It's an emotion. And love's not an emotion. Love is a choice. You know, we think that if you love me, you'll make me feel good. And it's the exact opposite. If you love me, you're going to always help me. Be the best version of me. That's what love is. And that doesn't always feel good. Right. And I think in life, you have to decide as a person, do you want to be liked or do you want to be trusted? You can't tell somebody you love them, but stand back and watch them make decisions that aren't serving them to be the best person that they are. Like, if they trust you and you truly love them, you have to say the hard things. And 90% of love is hard, and it sucks and it hurts. And I realized that on the battlefield. I realized that hate was not going to get me through that day. Hating the enemy was not going to get me through that day. But loving my country, loving what I believed in, loving the people that were stuck in their suffering, was being fueled by negativity and hate. It is. There's an expiration date on it.
- [58:43]
A
Dirty fuel, man. It's not the clean stuff. It's dirty, right? It burns bright but goes away fast.
- [58:50]
B
It's dirty fuel.
- [58:52]
A
Yeah, man, it is.
- [58:54]
B
Love is limitless.
- [58:55]
A
Yeah.
- [58:57]
B
And it is. There's no expiration date, and we got to get back to it.
- [59:02]
A
Well, you know, it's just like, I understand, like, the people, again, this is not like life or death military stuff, but the people who are motivated by doubters or haters and they have those healthy chips on their shoulder, or at least what they think are healthy chips on their shoulder. That's dirty fuel. Right. It can be helpful, like, temporarily to prove them wrong. I get it. But to me, what you're saying is so right. Because how fun is it, man, when, like, you do something, you make an impact, you. You win the game, whatever, and you're surrounded by the people that you love and that love you and you're celebrating together. That's what it's all about. Because the haters will not be there. They will not be around when you prove them wrong. They're nowhere to be found. You could probably go look for more haters somewhere else, but they're not going to be there to celebrate the people you love, though. They're right there, man. Shoulder to shoulder, hugging, love and kissing. That's the thing, man. That's the juice. So that's why I love that. That I didn't know you're going to say that, but I love that that's kind of the way your. Your ethos of how you're Going about yourself and how you're trying to impact people in a positive way.
- [60:05]
B
Yeah, man. I mean. I mean, think about it, right? Like, a guy told me this the other day. I was. I was going back and forth on. I mean, obviously we're always taking haters, right? This guy told me, he said. He said, don't give him any fuel. He said, don't even pay him any attention. He said, you know what? History never remembers the critics or the haters.
- [60:25]
A
So true. Dakota, man, this is amazing. Unlike anything I've ever done, man, in 11 years. I'm very, very grateful that you exist and that you're here and for your service to our country. I hold you in as high of a regard as I can of any other human being. So thank you for that. I know you probably makes you uncomfortable hearing that, but I'm not going to not say it because it's true. Thank you for being here. I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress. Man, this was. This is great.
- [60:51]
B
Let's do it again.
- [60:52]
A
Love it, man. Thank you so much. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note ryanarningleader.com Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with American hero Dakota Meyer. This one is unlike any I can remember. Just to hear Dakota share that his story, it just blew my mind. A few takeaways from my notes. Nobody cares how hard you try. Nobody cares how hard you worked. The stakes are so high. Dakota was leading in life and death situations. The key learning for us to take is to take ownership, complete ownership of our lives like Dakota has. Don't wait for someone else to do it. Don't complain about your boss. Nobody cares. Or about the broken systems at your work. Again, nobody cares. Take ownership of your life, your career, your family. Don't be a passive observer who just complains. Be an owner. And then when. Oh, God. That story when he was telling about his teammate was pinned down, asking for support, and he said, if you don't get me, these rounds were going to die. And the response was, quote, try your best. Like, I cannot imagine at that moment, Dakota decided to disobey his orders. And he drove into the ambush multiple times to get his teammates. As he said, you don't have to have a title to be a leader. Dakota risked his life multiple times to help his brothers, and in the process, he saved many of them, even though he's focusing on the ones that he couldn't When I asked him, did you think you were going to die? How quickly he responded, I knew I was, but I wanted to make him earn it. Oh, I just cannot imagine that. And then his tweet, for those even mentioning, quote, civil war, you are wrong. That only amplifies our problems. America doesn't need a war. What we need is to vote, to lead, to speak up in schools, to teach our kids history, truth, kindness with strength, and how to disagree without violence. It starts with us being the example. We must not become what we're trying to correct. Could not have said it better myself. Dakota is the perfect person to be speaking up right now. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader show with Dakota Meyer. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader. And because you continue to do that, and you also go to Spotify and Apple podcasts, write a review, rate the show, hopefully five stars, subscribe to it. Doing all of that gives me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis, which is to have conversations like this one. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.