The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk

Episode 657: Helen Lewis – Why Genius Is a Myth, Edison Needed Teams, Self-Promoters Are Overrated, Conspiracy Theories, Shakespeare Needed Luck, and How To Build an Excellent Career
Date: October 12, 2025
Guest: Helen Lewis, Staff Writer at The Atlantic and author of "The Genius Myth: A Curious History of a Dangerous Idea"

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Ryan Hawk sits down with journalist and author Helen Lewis to unravel the concept of "genius" and explore its myths, with stories ranging from Shakespeare, Thomas Edison, and Tim Berners-Lee to Elon Musk and the Beatles. Helen and Ryan delve into why our culture idolizes outliers, how collaboration and context fuel creative achievement, the role of luck and environment, and practical lessons for leaders aiming for excellence. The discussion is candid, witty, and rooted in both historical insights and real-world application.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Shakespeare, Luck, and The Genius Narrative

[02:19 – 07:21]

• How Shakespeare Became an Icon: Shakespeare was respected in his life, but not idolized as a "genius." Posthumous events—including England's revolution, the closure and reopening of theaters, and friends' efforts to preserve his work—played a huge role in cementing his legend.

  • Key quote: "People were really hungry to hear about him, too. And this kind of comes back to my idea of a myth around somebody." (Helen, 05:29)

• Application for Today: A combination of exceptional skill, luck, and being in the right cultural context matters. Moving to hotbeds of innovation (like Shakespeare moving to London) and engaging with talented peers is critical.

  • Takeaway: Seek environments where you’re challenged and surrounded by excellence (07:21).

2. The Power of Scene vs. Genius

[07:21 – 10:04]

• Brian Eno’s “Scenius” vs. Individual Genius: Great achievements often emerge from creative ecosystems or "scenes," not solely from solitary brilliance.

  • "You don't just have to be Leonardo, you also need Florence." (Helen quoting Paul Graham, 07:21)

• Surround Yourself Strategically: Being in the right city, industry, or community—not just having innate talent—can supercharge growth. Both Ryan and Helen reflect on the importance of intentionally placing themselves among people who push them to grow.

3. Institution Builders and Collaboration

[10:04 – 12:57]

• Case Studies: Joe Rogan and the Austin Comedy Scene: Rogan didn’t just succeed individually—he built an institution (his comedy club) for others, shaping an entire scene and supporting diverse comedians.
  • "He created an institution that creates more of what they want to see in the world." (Helen, 12:07)
• Lesson for Listeners: Don't just join thriving scenes—consider how to help build them.

4. Self-Promotion, Fame, and Overhyped Genius

[12:57 – 15:09]

• Contrast: Tim Berners-Lee vs. Elon Musk: Berners-Lee, inventor of the World Wide Web, is humble despite monumental impact; Musk is a prolific self-promoter focused on legacy and public persona.

  • "I think the thing is, we don't really tend to call those people geniuses because they're just a bit too normal. And we sort of demand a level of oddness and specialness in who we attach that label to." (Helen, 14:58)

• The Cult of Exceptionalism: Our narrative of genius often requires quirkiness or drama, leading to overvaluation of self-promoters and sometimes charlatans (e.g., Elizabeth Holmes, Sam Bankman-Fried).

5. The Nature of Genius and Upbringing

[17:16 – 20:31]

• Childhood Adversity as Motivation: Many “geniuses” had turbulent childhoods, fueling a hunger for recognition.
  • "It's more like a hunger for recognition or fame or attention." (Helen, 18:27)
• Is Genius Bred or Made?: Genetics play a role, but so does upbringing, opportunity, and luck.
  • "Almost everybody credible will also tell you that based on twin studies of twins raised apart, that actually upbringing really does matter too." (Helen, 18:27)

6. Francis Galton, Eugenics, and IQ

[20:31 – 24:42]

• Galton's Influence: Victorian scientist Francis Galton tried to quantify genius, leading to problematic ideas like eugenics. He missed crucial factors like privilege, opportunity, and social connections.

• IQ: Value, Limits, and The Flynn Effect: IQ is part inherited, part environmental, and population IQ has risen over the past century with better education and nutrition.

7. IQ and Success: Stephen Hawking’s Perspective

[24:42 – 26:38]

• Hawking’s View: "People obsessed with IQ are losers." IQ doesn’t guarantee creativity or real-world achievement; practical application and grit matter more.

  • "What matters is what I've done with my life and what I've come up with." (Helen, quoting Hawking, 24:45)

• Conspiracy Theories, Insecurity & Narcissism:

  • "The one that came out top was narcissism... It positions you as the protagonist of reality." (Helen, 29:08–29:56)

8. Conspiracy Thinking and Community

[26:38 – 33:58]

• Why Conspiracies Flourish: Sometimes conspiracies are real, but often it's about personal insecurity, status, or the allure of being "in the know."
• Internet as a Confirmation Engine: Algorithms make it easy to find dubious “evidence” to support any world view (30:49).
• A Call for Curiosity: Retain friendships and remain curious, not judgmental, towards those with fringe beliefs.

9. The Beatles: The Art and Power of Finiteness

[35:12 – 39:08]

• The Beatles’ Success Formula: Talent, yes—but also timing, collaboration, and their story’s emotional resonance due to its brevity and finality.
  • "There's never as much of the Beatles as you want... emotionally, that gives it that bittersweetness... so many genius stories have." (Helen, 38:36)
• Practical Career Lesson: Value quality over unbounded quantity—sometimes too much “content” dilutes the specialness and quality of what you offer.

10. Sustainable Excellence: Quality vs. Quantity

[39:08 – 46:30]

• Toxic Productivity: The modern pressure for endless output (whether podcasts or articles) can harm both quality and long-term fulfillment.

  • "When you're in the beginning...you will want to say yes a lot... Then, there comes a point...where the most important thing you can say is no." (Helen, 39:45)

• "Do Not Speak Unless You Can Improve Upon the Silence.": Release only work you’re proud of; your reputation is built on the things you choose to do and not do.

  • "[Robert Greene] said...do not speak unless you can improve upon the silence." (Ryan, 43:00)

11. The “Light Bulb” Myth and Collaborative Innovation

[46:30 – 51:03]

• Real Story of Edison: Edison didn’t “invent” the light bulb alone or in a flash—it emerged via incremental improvements, teamwork, and persistence over years.

  • "If you look at the logbook, you can see that some of his assistants’ names are on some of their biggest breakthroughs. So they were a collaborative effort." (Helen, 46:56)

• Life Is Messy, Not (Just) Genius: Success stories are tidied up in hindsight but, in reality, are collaborative and incremental—mess and all.

12. Teamwork, Growth, and Choosing the Right Environment

[51:03 – 53:56]

• Why Work With Great Teams?: Even with potential for more independence (and perhaps money), Helen chooses The Atlantic for the challenge and collaborative growth.

  • "There are people who I don't want to let down, colleagues that I want their good opinion." (Helen, 49:40)

• Ryan’s Reflection: Surrounding yourself with “the best of the best” raises your game and is a recipe for sustained excellence.

13. Career Advice for the Ambitious

[53:56 – 55:13]

• Sample Widely Early in Your Career: Try different things and prioritize environments where you’ll learn and be held to high standards.

  • "Take the first job at a publication that you think you could learn something from... don't stress out too much about, is it your dream job? Sample it." (Helen, 52:02)

• "Default Yes" to "Default No": Early on, say yes to opportunities—later, say no to protect your best work and well-being.

• Don’t Defer Living: Don’t grind forever waiting for a payoff—find meaningful work and communities now.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Shakespeare’s Enduring Legacy:

  “It slightly tugs at your heartstrings, right, to think that these plays... almost didn’t survive.” – Helen Lewis [05:29]

• On the Myth of the Lone Genius:

  “You don't just have to be Leonardo, you also need Florence.” – Helen Lewis [07:21]

• On Self-Promotion:

  “We overrate...the self promoters...Elon's kids are called things like Romulus, Tim Berners-Lee's kids are called Alice and Ben. ...We don't really tend to call those people geniuses because they're just a bit too normal.” – Helen Lewis [12:57]

• On Conspiracy Theories:

  “It positions you as the protagonist of reality. ...You’re the one who’s seen through this kind of stuff.” – Helen Lewis [29:08]

• On Productivity and Quality:

  “I don't want to put out anything under my name that I'm not really proud of. ...Can I say honestly, that was the best I could do?... That's the metric by which I should judge myself.” – Helen Lewis [39:45]

• On Lifelong Learning:

  “Sample it. See how you go on that... Be around people who really care about the work.” – Helen Lewis [52:02]

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|----------------------------------------------| | 02:19-05:29 | Shakespeare’s rise from talented to “genius” | | 07:21-10:04 | The importance of scenes and social context | | 12:07-12:57 | Joe Rogan & ecosystem-building | | 12:57-15:09 | Musk vs. Berners-Lee, genius and public image| | 24:42-26:38 | Hawking and the IQ obsession | | 26:38-33:58 | Conspiracy theories, insecurity, narcissism | | 35:48-39:08 | The Beatles and emotional impact of finiteness| | 39:08-46:30 | Productivity, quality, and saying “no” | | 46:30-51:03 | Light bulb myths, Edison's collaborations | | 53:56-55:13 | Career advice for high achievers |

Actionable Takeaways

• Move towards “scenius”—not just personal mastery, but strategic communities and collaborative scenes.
• Elevate your standards and be selective—say “yes” early on, shift to “no” as you grow.
• Beware the myth of the lone genius—value institutions, ecosystems, and teamwork.
• Guard your creative energy: Finiteness, quality, and rest are more impactful than relentless output.
• Embrace curiosity—in career, relationships, and even when facing opposing beliefs.
• Aim to add value—“Do not speak unless you can improve upon the silence.”

Further Reflections:
Helen Lewis’s “The Genius Myth” invites us to consider that "genius" is often a product of place, time, and collaboration as much as individual spark. Building a great career or organization is less about being singularly brilliant, and more about seeking fertile ground, investing in others, and continually guarding the quality of what you contribute.

(For more from Helen, check out her book "The Genius Myth: A Curious History of a Dangerous Idea," available wherever books are sold.)