662: Nicholas Thompson - The Atlantic CEO on Growing Up With a "Precariously Insecure" Genius Father, Hiring Leaders with an Edge, How Running Builds Discipline, and Why Moving at an Uncomfortable Pace Built a Million-Subscriber Media Empire

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk

Episode 662: Nicholas Thompson — The Atlantic CEO on Growing Up With a “Precariously Insecure” Genius Father, Hiring Leaders with an Edge, How Running Builds Discipline, and Why Moving at an Uncomfortable Pace Built a Million-Subscriber Media Empire
Date: November 17, 2025
Host: Ryan Hawk
Guest: Nicholas Thompson, CEO, The Atlantic; Author, The Running Ground

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between host Ryan Hawk and Nicholas Thompson, CEO of The Atlantic and accomplished distance runner, about the interconnections between running, leadership, ambition, and building resilient organizations. The discussion threads through Nick’s personal story—growing up with a brilliant but turbulent father, overcoming health challenges, developing mental toughness through running, and building work cultures that thrive on challenge and generosity. They also delve into storytelling as a leadership skill and the attributes necessary for hiring exceptional leaders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nick’s Marathon Mindset and Immediate Return to Normal Life

• Nick discusses running the NYC Marathon the day prior and immediately returning to family and work commitments, illustrating his approach to grit and balance.
  “[After the marathon] I had to like hustle back because I thought I was going to have to take my kid to a soccer game. So I like speed walked off the finish to the subway.” — Nick (02:25)

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2. Growing Up with a “Precariously Insecure” Genius Father

• Ryan reads a glowing recommendation written about Nick’s father, Scott Thompson, in his youth, setting up a nuanced discussion about brilliance coexisting with deep insecurity and chaos.
• Nick candidly describes the complex legacy of his father—his intellectual hero but also unreliable, unstable, and sometimes self-destructive.
• The father-son dynamic eventually flipped, with Nick becoming the caregiver:
  “By the time I was in my 20s, it’s like I was the dad and he was the son... I was the kid and I’m the responsible one—he’s the adult and he’s the lunatic.” — Nick (07:57)

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3. How Running Became a Foundation for Confidence and Discipline

• Running provided Nick with identity and confidence during a tough adolescence.
  “Sometimes you have to kind of trick yourself into believing you can do something... if I had known how fast I was going, there’s no way I would have been able to go that fast.” — Nick (15:06)
• Running became a powerful metaphor and training ground for leadership, discipline, and continuous improvement.
  “If you go out there every day... and push yourself, you get faster. There’s no two ways about it.” — Nick (12:16)
• Nick shares how stretch goals and moving at an uncomfortable pace are critical not just in athletics but in business and life.

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4. Overcoming Adversity: Running Through Cancer

• Nick recounts his thyroid cancer diagnosis following a strong marathon performance, the long recovery, and the emotional significance of returning to racing afterward.
  “[It was] a really dark, profound... ultimately, sometimes bad things happen to you in life and they turn out to be really good in the long run.” — Nick (17:26)
• His story highlights the role of running in processing trauma and reclaiming one’s narrative.

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5. Stretch Goals and Growth Through Discomfort

• Nick explains the necessity of “audacious goals” both in running and leading The Atlantic—how shooting for a million subscribers and profitability required pushing beyond comfort, making tough choices, and risking failure.
  “You have to move at an uncomfortable pace. You don’t get anything you want by being comfortable... if you’re setting deadlines that everything seems smooth... you’re not growing.” — Nick (19:57)

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6. Mental Resilience, Adjustment, and “Continuous Forward Motion”

• Discusses dealing with “bad days” in racing and life, knowing when to push and when to recalibrate.
  “At a certain point, I was like, if I keep trying to like set some goal... I might not finish. And all that matters is that I finish.” — Nick (24:16)
• Nick’s son’s humor after a slow (for him) marathon:
  “‘Do not put that on Strava. Do not tell anybody you ran.’” — Nick quoting his son (53:16)

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7. The Craft of Storytelling as a Leadership Skill

• Nick breaks down his philosophy of storytelling (and writing his memoir), with practical advice for leaders:
  • Use “the cocktail party test”—will people lean in or walk away when you tell this story?
  • Everything in your story should drive it forward and create an emotional, visual “movie” in the listener or reader’s head.
  • Ruthlessly cut any detail that doesn’t serve the story.
    “Every extra word, every extra thought, every extra detail that doesn’t propel the story... needs to be removed.” — Nick (40:28)
• He reads aloud the work of those he admires to improve his own craft.

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8. Hiring and Developing Leaders: The Atlantic’s Must-Haves

• Nick lists four essential qualities he looks for in leaders at The Atlantic:
  1. Spirit of generosity—Can they collaborate without ego and support the greater good?
  2. Force of ideas—Are they intellectually sharp and able to push the organization forward?
  3. Work ethic—Driven and productive, but not at the cost of burning out.
  4. Edge (Productive paranoia)—A sense of urgency, not complacency; “I want, like, productively paranoid.” (45:36)
• Nick shares that team composition and culture have been crucial to the sustained success at The Atlantic.

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9. Nature vs. Nurture & The Limits of Judging Discipline

• Discusses genetics in running (fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch muscles) and how discipline manifests differently in life and work.
• Nick reflects on not judging those who lack his training discipline, noting:
  “The discipline can come in so many different ways... I don’t mind people who don’t worry about physical discipline as long as they still have the mental discipline.” — Nick (49:07)

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10. Parenting, Imperfection, and Generational Wisdom

• On the fears and humility of parenting:
  “Nothing makes me more worried about failure than parenting. Parenting is suffused with regrets, confusion, and mistakes. But when I run by, I know my children are rooting for me...” — Nick (52:10)
• Nick shares his efforts to pass on love, support, and resilience without repeating the mistakes of previous generations.

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11. Advice for Young Leaders

• For graduates eager to make their mark:
  “Find the things you’re passionate in and really focus on them... Find something you love and work at it and keep pushing. And always work hard and eventually things will turn out for the best.” — Nick (54:16)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “By the time I was in my 20s, it’s like I was the dad and he was the son... Got to get this done, get this organized, stop picking up people in Dupont Circle. Settle down.” — Nick (07:57)
• “If you complain, you won’t get faster. And if you go out and you just say, you know what, I’m gonna do it, you do get faster. I apply that to everything in life.” — Nick (12:16)
• “There are too many people who are a little too comfortable... And what I want is, okay, did this get done? Let's get the next thing done... and you don't have to work 100 hours a week, but I do need an edge.” — Nick (45:33)
• “This is a magazine that Ralph Waldo Emerson started in a little house in Concord, right? ...You can go into that house today and you can see their Atlantics in the attic...” — Nick on vivid storytelling (42:35)
• “Every extra word, every extra thought... that doesn’t propel the story from where you are to the next spot... needs to be removed.” — Nick (40:28)
• “Continuous forward motion. Continuous forward motion. And I finished in 3:06, which was, you know, 16 minutes worse than what I thought... but whatever, still finished.” — Nick (22:50)
• “My advice is find the things you’re passionate in and really focus on them... Have faith that over time what you want to happen will happen and things will be okay.” — Nick (54:16)
• “‘Do not put that on Strava. Do not tell anybody you ran. You got to go out there tomorrow and run a marathon by yourself and do better.’” — Nick’s son (53:16)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 02:14 — Post-marathon routine, balance of life and running
• 03:35–08:59 — Growing up with a remarkable but chaotic father, shifting family dynamics
• 12:16 — Lessons from running applied to leadership and work
• 13:41–17:08 — Running as identity through adolescence, the pivotal “10:48” race
• 17:12–19:23 — Cancer diagnosis and its transformative impact via running
• 19:57–23:44 — Stretch goals, discomfort, and leadership at The Atlantic
• 24:16–26:08 — Marathon adaptation, shifting from goals to “continuous forward motion”
• 41:24–44:03 — Tactical storytelling advice for leaders
• 44:30–47:21 — Hiring principles and building a resilient team at The Atlantic
• 49:07–51:54 — Discipline in life vs. work; not judging by physical habits
• 52:10–54:00 — Parenting, passing on values without repeating old mistakes
• 54:16–55:16 — Advice to young leaders and new graduates

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Conclusion

Nicholas Thompson bridges the gap between high-level executive leadership and the raw, vulnerable journey of self-improvement through running and storytelling. His approach to goal-setting, team-building, and overcoming adversity provides a robust framework for leaders in any field. The conversation refines our understanding of discipline, illuminates the messy humanity behind ambition, and underscores the power of “continuous forward motion”—whether pursuing stretch goals, managing a media empire, or simply trying to be a better parent.

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Recommended Next Steps:

• Read Nick’s book: The Running Ground: A Father, a Son, and the Simplest of Sports
• Practice the storytelling tools shared, especially the “cocktail party test.”
• Evaluate your stretch goals: Are they uncomfortable enough to motivate growth?
• Consider The Atlantic’s hiring motto: Spirit of generosity, force of ideas, relentless work ethic, and productive edge.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the learningleader show. I am your host, Ryan Hoff. Thank you so much for being here. Go to learningleader.com for show notes of this and all podcast episodes. Go to learningleader.com now on to tonight's featured leader. Nick Thompson is the CEO of the Atlantic and author of one of my favorite books I've read in years called the Running. During our conversation, we explore why stretch goals force you to move at an uncomfortable pace. And Nick talks about how doing this running also applies at his place of work. Then how running through cancer treatments made him stronger. A super emotional part of the conversation. He talks about the must have attributes he looks for when hiring leaders at the Atlantic, including one that really surprised me. And then Nick shares what his brilliant and chaotic father taught him about ambition, discipline, and the fine line between the two. This one is enlightening. So good. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Nick Thompson. This episode is brought to you by my friends at Insight Global. Insight Global is a staffing and professional services company dedicated to being the light to the world around them. If you need to hire one person, hire a team of people or transform your business through talent or technical services. Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world have the hustle and grit to deliver. Hiring can be tough, but hiring the right person can be magic. Visit insightglobal.com learningleader today to learn more. That's insightglobal.com learningleader didn't realize when we booked this that it would be such a big day. You ran the New York City Marathon yesterday, man. How you feeling?

[B]

I feel fine. I feel okay. I got through it and I'm back at it today. I did a book event a couple hours afterwards, so I'm.

[A]

You're crazy. You are absolutely not doing my best.

[B]

The funny thing is I had to like hustle back because I thought I was going to have to take my kid to a soccer game. So I like speed walked off the finish to the subway.

[A]

You'd think after a marathon you would kind of block the day, but no, it was just like, I'll block a few hours and then it's time to get back to regular life.

[B]

Time to get back to life.

[A]

You're crazy. I want to jump into your book specifically. There's a million different places to start. But I read this quote and it blew my mind and I want you to react to it. Scotty Thompson is the kind of young man that comes along only once in approximately 10 years. I cannot recall ever having known a student who possessed the same combination of intelligence, creativity, energy, drive, and dedication. He has attempted more, achieved more, than anyone we have studied, including some who now hold high office. He is generally conceded, among those who have observed the student body since World War II, to be the outstanding leader of the era. I think it likely that in the entire history of Stanford campus life, he has had no near rival since Herbert Hoover as an undergraduate man. Who is that guy?

[B]

Yeah, that was my dad. I mean, that's the kind of recommendation you want when you're 21 years old, right? And that was like the Stanford provost writing about my father in his recommendation for the Rhodes Scholarship. I wrote to the Rhodes panel when I was working on this book. I was like, can I see the letters? Recommendation written for my dad? And they're like, sure, here you are. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, I knew he was a good student at Stanford, but that was something else. Yeah, that was in some ways the high point of my dad's life and career. But he had a ton of promise back then.

[A]

He also got, I think you or somebody talked to Tracy Bennett, a female graduate student. She said he was flamboyant, gently endearing, annoyingly arrogant, piercingly intelligent, entertaining, and more. I'd never met a man nor had a professor who was clearly so brilliant and at the same time, so precariously insecure. So we hear some of the amazing things about your dad. Now we're starting to hear some of the not so amazing things about him. It would be too broad of a question to say, what has he done to impact you? But I would just love to hear in your words to tell more stories or the story of your relationship with your dad.

[B]

Yeah. So he grows up in Oklahoma, and then his father, my grandfather, was initially a missionary and then rose to a position of high prominence on the Bacon University campus. My dad grows up there. Dad's not really happy. Doesn't like his father, feels intimidated, gets out, goes to Andover, goes to Stanford, where everything is amazing. Wins a Rhodes Scholarship, comes back, all of this promise, all this potential. And then, you know, his insecurities, his complexities. It's very hard to have a gold star put on your forehead the way he did, you know, back when he was so young. And for everybody, you know, think you're going to be President of the United States or senator, because then when you don't live up to it and when things start to get unraveled, you can feel at age 27 that you're a failure. This is a problem that a lot of Rhodes scholars have where My father was photographed by Life magazine when he was 21 years old. And he comes back, he's got his PhD, but he's a professor. He's not really publishing that many books. He's certainly not a senator. Things aren't really going right for him. And I think it leads to a lot of emotional insecurities. And he starts drinking too much, and he has a lot of problems. I'm born in 1975. My father is in the house. Love playing with him. He teaches me to run. We go running when I'm five or six. We run around the block. We run a mile. We might even have run two or three miles. I wish he was still here so we could fact check that. But I certainly remember that, you know, then right about that time, you have that quote from Tracy. He comes out of the closet, leaves my mother, moves to D.C. and it's like everything in his life just becomes a blazing bonfire. He's so smart, he's so interesting. The personality that was described in that Stanford letter is always true, but he can't hold on to anything. He can't balance his checkbook. He can't pay his taxes. He's drinking all the time. He's got a crazy sex addiction. His house is absolute madness at all moments. Just stuff being thrown all over the place. And then as he gets older, in his 60s, you get more madness and less control. So he'll come to visit me. He moves to Southeast Asia, he'll come back and visit me, and he'll show up and he'll just take his suitcase, which is all battered and frayed, and just open it, dump it right on the floor when he comes in, and out, pop all these pill bottles of stuff he's bought off market in Singapore to help him go to sleep or help him wake up. And bottles of moisturizer and, like, flasks of alcohol and, like, crumpled bills. You're like, you have a room over here. Like, put your suitcase in the room and deal with your room. It was like a metaphor for his life at that point. So complicated, man.

[A]

Wow. I mean, it's still probably your hero. But then like a lot of people, the more you get to know them, they have their flaws. They're humans. The world's not black and white. It's very gray. How do you combine this thought of him being your hero and the guy you look up to? And he's so brilliant and smart and gets letters written like the one we just talked about from Stanford. He's a Rhodes scholar. But then he also just made some horrendously bad choices for many, many years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How does that affect. I mean, you're still living it. You're. You're the dude doing it.

[B]

It's so strange. It was so weird because in some ways he was like my intellectual hero. I felt like he knew everything. Like you could talk about any book and he'd have an interesting theory, to read it carefully, to have something smart to say. You, great taste in art. He loved music, could identify any piece of classical music. But by the time I was in my 20s, it's like I was the dad and he was the son. You know, Got to get this done. You got to get this organized. You got to finish this. Like stop picking up people in Dupont Circle. Right. Like settle down. And so we called it a reverse father son relationship where I was trying to keep him in line. And so in a way the traditional dynamic flipped because I'm the kid and I'm the responsible one and he's the adult and he's the lunatic. He basically spent his 50s, 60s and 70s. He passed away when he was 75. Living like he was a 19 year old college student who wasn't really doing his homework, was partying all the time and recruiting guys off Manjammer nonstop.

[A]

He also got you into running. And I want to focus a lot on running because the funny thing is I'm not a distance runner. I like running sprints, like 1:10s. I have a football player background. So our conditioning tests were 181 10s with 30 second break. Right.

[B]

That's your, what's your 40 time? What's your best for?

[A]

My best 40 time was in the low 4 or 5. So not bad for a quarterback.

[B]

Good.

[A]

Yeah, I can't even run remotely close to that right now. But that was back in my program.

[B]

That low four or five. Killer.

[A]

Have you timed your 40?

[B]

There's no way it's under six. But that's not true.

[A]

Yeah, dude, you rerun like sub two thirty marathons. You got.

[B]

I know my 40 time is garbage. Like I tie my kids and I rate my kids run like 6:1. I tell them all the time, how.

[A]

Old are, how old are they now?

[B]

15, 11 and 15. Right. So they're right around. I mean I haven't timed them probably. This is when they're 10 and 14. They're big into soccer, big into soccer. Great soccer players. Right. But they can both destroy me in sprints. So I'm, I've got like, there's no way I'm under 6 anyway. Maybe my peak has like high fives.

[A]

Okay. I bet your kids are going to be like mid force coming up as they get a little bit stronger and older.

[B]

Oh yeah, they're like, they're getting fast and like the middle one just ran a sub five mile. The little guy who's 11 just ran a sub six miles. So they're like, they're good.

[A]

This is a crazy question, but how much of running is. Because like, you are a more of a slender frame. How much of running is genetic versus if you're like, hey dude, just get your mind right. And you could go out and run a sub 3 marathon if you really, really wanted to. Like, how much is it nature versus nurture when it comes to running?

[B]

So there's this fundamental thing which is like, what percentage of your muscles are slow twitch versus fast twitch? And that's mostly genetically determined and you can shift it a little bit. But my guess is that you're mostly fast twitch and I'm mostly slow twitch. Right. And then there's a little bit of your genetic component which determines like, you know, basically, are you bulky, are you skinny? Right. And it's related to fast twitch, slow twitch. But, you know, the skinnier you are, the more likely you are to be able to run a good marathon. The sort of the bulky you are, the better, more likely you are to run a fast hundred. So there's that component. Then there's the component of like how likely you are to break down, which is a huge part of marathon training. Right. You've got to be able to go 16 weeks running 50 miles a week, 60 miles a week, 70 miles a week without your body breaking. And so whether you're aligned properly and is one leg longer than the other. So there's all kinds of genetic components in that. And then there's a genetic component of how well you improve, which people underappreciate. Everybody knows there's a genetic component of how fast you are when you start, but you can have two people who start at the same place do the exact same workouts. One gets faster than the other, and that's genetic, which is pretty interesting. So there's a real mix of stuff in there.

[A]

Okay, let's get more into running. First and foremost, this is something you've become one of the best in the world at what you do, like running long distances, really fast. And now in your age group, you're setting records, you're winning, and you can get into all of that. What is it about running Right. What is it about the discipline of training, the discipline of getting better, of waking up early and running? Regardless of what the weather is or regardless of how you're feeling, you're going to get out there and go. What is it about running that you feel has made you a better leader?

[B]

I do think that what I learned in running is very much the way I approach work. And everything else is if you go out there every day, seven days a week, maybe six days a week, if you take Sundays off, but you're out there pretty much every day, couple days a week, you go really hard. And if you do that, you get faster. Right? And there's no two ways about it. And if you don't do that, you don't get faster. And so to improve, you just really have to go out there and push yourself. And it's not like if you go out there and you just sort of jog and relax five miles a day, it'll get a little faster, but you won't get much faster. But if you go out there and every day and three times a week you push yourself hard, it just happens. And so it's a very good reminder that you can get a lot done and you can get a lot of really good things done if you just go and if you just do it and if you like allot some time to pushing yourself. And if you look at your to do list and you identify what is the hardest thing, what is the thing I don't want to do, and you just start working on it and you learn that through running. To have kind of a stoic attitude towards everything in life, I'm just going to go, I'm going to try, I'm not going to complain. And because if you complain, you're like, oh, it's too cold, I don't really want to run, it's too hot, I don't really want to run. Or you won't get faster. And if you go out and you just say, you know what, I'm gonna do it, you do get faster. And I, I apply that to everything in life.

[A]

You ran a 10:48 your sophomore year, and it feels like this was a pivotal moment, inflection point in your life. How did that 1048 impact you? How did it impact your confidence?

[B]

It was the most insane thing ever, that race. Um, it was a two mile race. And so I had gone to this new high school, gone to Phillips Academy, Andover, great high school, super smart kids show up, I'm in a weird dorm, I'm like, not that popular, you know, I'm like, I'm nothing. Nothing's going that great for Nick. Winner of my sophomore year. I started as a sophomore, so I've only been there three months. I show up and I try out for the varsity basketball team. Because I was captain of my grade school basketball team. I don't make the varsity. All right, I'll make the JV. I don't make the JV. I'll make the JV too, right? Of course I don't make the JV too, right'? Like Nick's. Nick's not doing very well. And so you have to do a sport. And so I'm like, well, I guess the only sport you can still join. It takes a while to get cut from three teams, you know, So a lot of the teams have closed. So the only one that's open is indoor track. I go over there. Coach is like, all right, welcome season. I'm like, tall and skinny, puts me in the two mile. And I run the first one in 11:43, which is not that good, but it's not terrible. And then I run, you know, the rest of the season. I'm running like 11:35, and it gets time for the New England Championships. Coach enters me, which was sort of surprising, but he enters me. And my goal was to run an 11:30. And my track was 150 meters, 150 yards a lap. And so I think it was like I had to run between 21 and 22 seconds a lap to run at 11:30. I was like, that's what I can do. And then I go to this new track at Moses Brown in Rhode island. But it was 160 yards. And so I go out there and I'm like running the first lap in 21:22. And I don't realize it, but I'm going a lot faster than I thought I was. So I thought I was chugging around at 5:45 pace. And I go through the first mile and they're like, 5:23. I was like, wait, what? And I didn't quite believe it. And I thought I would be in, like, 10th or 12th place. I was in third place. And so I ended up finishing the race in 10:48a. It was a lesson that I've held with me. And sometimes you have to kind of trick yourself into believing you can do something, right. If I had known how fast I was going, there's no way I would have been able to go that fast. If I had known that I was running five 23s. I would have shut down. I would have been scared. My body would have started to hurt. There would have been all kinds of phantom pains. If I had known what was happening, I wouldn't have been able to do it. And secondly, I succeeded. I ran this time. And 1048 is good. It's not amazing, but it's good. And suddenly I was cool. And there's an article in the school paper about this sophomore who set the indoor class record and did it despite not having shown any promise yet. All the super cool kids in my dorm are like, wow, this is awesome. And so suddenly I had an identity. And when you're in high school, it's really helpful to have an identity, to have something you're good at, to have something that people know you're good at. Running was that for me, what happened from there is it led to more self confidence and I started doing better in my classes. It's been true throughout my life when I. Everything goes well. And I don't know which way that causation works, whether, like, when things are going well, I run well, or whether when I run well, things go well. But certainly at this moment, in high school, it was a situation where running well made everything go well.

[A]

Running has been taken away from you at one point in your life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Outside of your control. Right. And medical diagnosis has sidelined you. What impact, not only having cancer, but what impact did it have? The fact that you couldn't run for a better. At least again, it involuntarily sidelined you.

[B]

That. That was a really dark, profound. And ultimately, sometimes bad things happen to you in life and they turn out to be really good in the long run. This was. I'm, you know, I'm blessed that this happened to me. It's hard to say that, but I am. So in 2005, I ran the New York Marathon in 243 and felt great. Right. That's a good time. You know, I'd run much slower times. It was a breakthrough for me. Right afterwards, like a week afterwards, I go in and see the doctor. He puts his hand on my throat. He's like, I see something there and that leads me down this, you know, the cycle, right? Where you're like, I don't know if you've been through this, but where you kid's not gonna be cancer. They're gonna test. Is it a nodule or is it a cyst? Right. Okay. And they come and they do a test. It's like, okay, well, it's not what we want. But there's still a chance. Okay. And you go. You go through, like, five or six different steps, and in each one, you're like. Like, it's not going to be cancer, right? It's going to. Like, we're going to see it's not. And then eventually it's like, oh, it probably is. And so then they have to do surgery. They open up my neck, they take out half the thyroid, and they call me up and they're like, we took out half your thyroid. Turns out you don't have cancer. I was like, great. And they call me back a week later, like, sorry, we misread the slides. You do. Then they have to open it up again, take out the rest. And then it's this, like, you go through radiation treatment, you're on the synthetic hormone. I just got completely wiped out. And it was so tied in my mind to running because I've been so proud of this 243 and so excited and so happy. And so as I got through it and as I, like, came out on the other side of the treatments, I felt like I really needed to run again. In fact, I really needed to run fast again. So I started up and slowly got back. And then, amazingly, two years later, 2007 New York Marathon, I ran another 2:43 and, in fact, ran 13 seconds faster than I had before I got sick. And so it was a pretty profound moment of my life.

[A]

I love it. This idea of setting a stretch goal, a tough goal, a goal that you're not guaranteed to hit. I think there's application far beyond running again. We're going to talk about your business stuff here in a second, but I would love to hear what you've drawn from setting stretch goals and hitting them or setting stretch goals and not. And how it impacts you again as a leader, as just someone trying to make a difference in the world, someone trying to leave a positive dent in the world. How is setting stretch goals helped you?

[B]

It's so important. You know, you have to sometimes say, you know what we're gonna like. There are two things that I like to think about. One is, like, two lessons from running. One is that you have to move at an uncomfortable pace. You don't get anything you want by being comfortable. Right. And if you are working in a way that feels easy, and if you're setting deadlines that everything seems smooth and there's not a problem. You're not growing, you're not learning, you're not getting there. Right? And that's. That's a lesson from running. And It's a good lesson for work, right? If I look at what I have to do and I look at what my goals are, like, I can do this. Let's just get there. Then what's the point? And then the second is that sometimes you have to really set an audacious goal and then focus and say, we're going to lock in and get it. We're going through that right now at the Atlantic, where we're setting two extremely big goals. One for advertising side, one for the consumer side, three. And our projections don't suggest we're going to hit them, right. But the same was true the last time. I said, we're going to get the profitability and we're going to get a million subscribers and we're going to do that in three years. I was like, no, that's. That's pretty hard, right? We're losing $30 million a year. We, you know, and we got there. And sometimes having a really big goal, you know, motivates you, focuses you, and you end up making all the tough choices you have to make and you get there, and sometimes it doesn't, like, you know, I don't know. I had a. I had a whole set of goals for the marathon yesterday. I made up a whole set of plans based on how I felt, and gotta say, I missed every single one by a large margin.

[A]

Why? What happened?

[B]

Well, I think yesterday was a weird race. I went in and my goal at the beginning of the summer is I'm run a 2:30 marathon. I'm going to win my age group. And I had these, like, sort of races along the way, and I hit them all and hit all my markers. And if you'd asked me, like, mid August, I was like, yeah, I'm on track to run 2:30 with my age group, but ran this 100k during the summer, and it kind of fried me in a little bit. And I started having some injury problems, so things were a little bit off. And then I must have gotten some kind of respiratory infection because the last two weeks my resting heart rate has been skyrocketing like 15 beats above where it should be. My HRV has been a third of what it should be. My respiratory rate's been like 20% higher than it should be. Like, everything has been off. And I didn't feel sick, didn't look sick, but something was wrong in my body. And so when I went into the race, I was like, well, I don't know how off I am, and I don't know how it's going to affect my running because sometimes you can have a cold, you can feel terrible, and you still run great, right? Or Michael Jordan scored 42 points with a temperature of 103. Sometimes you can play through it, sometimes you can't. And so I made a sort of a set of plans for the race. But like, I. I basically agreed I was gonna or not agreed. I wrote a plan. I was like, okay, I'm gonna run the first five miles at 6:30, and I'm gonna see how I feel. And if I feel good, I'm gonna go faster and faster and try to break 2:40 for the marathon. If I don't feel good, I'll just hold 6:30 and run 250. And I ran the first five at 6:30. Next five ran a little quicker. And then it was like, oh, God, I'm not breathing right. And so from then on, it was, I would just say to myself, continuous forward motion. Continuous forward motion. And I finished in 3:06, which was, you know, 16 minutes worse than what I thought the worst case scenario was. But whatever, still finished.

[A]

It's so fast still for most people, almost everybody. But how do you know when to say, oh, I don't know if I got it. Today versus Nick. Let's go. We gotta go, man. Let's go. Push, push, push. Because I'm sure you've had days where you've done that where you're like, I'm not feeling it, man, but I'm pushing. I'm going to go anyway. And you go 243 or do whatever. How do you balance that out in your head?

[B]

Yeah, every other time I've done it, my finish has been within a pretty tight range of what I expected. Right. And I'm always able to kind of push through, push the pain aside. And I have a very good sense of my body. Yesterday was the first time where I didn't have it, you know, And I tried a couple times, right? So once I start realizing in about mile 10 or 11 that something's off, I tried different strategies and I was like, okay, you know, stop looking at your watch. Just like, look at that person ahead of you, right? And like, stay on that person's shoulder. Right? If you can stay on that person's shoulder for the next five miles, you'll do great. And then I wasn't able to stay on that person's shoulder for like 20ft. All right, let's just like meditate, right? Like, I'll sometimes do this thing where I'm like, okay, right foot Left foot right, left foot right. And I would try to kind of focus on my meditation pattern. And then like, that didn't work. And I was like, okay, I'm going to reset my goals. I'm just going to run 6:50 per mile. Like I'm so. Look at my watch and I'm going to run 650. I'm not going to let it fall off from that. And I just couldn't, like, I couldn't lock into any of these goals. And I just kept sort of sliding back further and further. And then at a certain point, I can't remember exactly, maybe it was like mile 14 or 15, maybe it was going up the Queensborough Bridge. I was like, you know, if I keep trying to like push myself or if I keep trying to like set some goal, if I keep trying to like keep going fast, I might not finish. And all that matters is that I finish, right? Like, I'm here, I'm gonna finish. And so now my goal is to finish. And so there's a really interesting thing actually in marathon running where in a race what you don't wanna do is to like slow down like 10 seconds a mile. I'd be like, okay, I'm running 6:20s. But now I feel bad. Okay, now I'm running 6:30s, now I'm running 6:40s, now I'm 6ft. Now it's 7:7, right? And you sort of, you can see this sometimes in marathon when you look at somebody's like pace chart, right? It's just like every mile gets worse. Once you realize you're not going to hit your goal, it's better to kind of like make a full drop. Be like, okay, now I'm going to run 30 seconds per mile slower, but I'm going to hold that right? Like identify how far there is and identify what pace you can run. Think of it as like, okay, I'm now at mile 17. So there's like a nine mile race. What can I run for these next nine miles? And that's sort of what I did yesterday. I was like, okay, I'm just going to run seven 30s and I'm going to run that for the last nine miles. And I pretty much held onto that and did okay. So I had a couple mental resets yesterday that were complicated, interesting, but it was totally new terrain for me.

[A]

How do you feel about that? Does that bum you out? Were you upset? Or is it just look at it as something to learn from. How do you respond to missing a goal like that?

[B]

Something to learn from if I thought, oh my God, like 50 years old, man, I've gotten slow. Like, I really got slow quickly. But I know that's not the case because I like, literally I ran a 50 mile race in April where I ran the first 26.2 miles like 15 minutes faster than I ran the whole marathon yesterday. Like, that's crazy. I'm not cooked. Just like, it was just a bad day.

[A]

You're listening to your kids, dad, you're cooked. That's what Mike could say to me, right?

[B]

Four or five times this year I've gone off and ran 26.2 miles as part of some workout faster than I ran the marathon yesterday. So I'm fine. I just need to get over whatever was wrong with my breathing. So, yeah, my son mocking me. It's like, you gotta bury that and enter another marathon, which we'll see how I recover. Maybe I'll get out there and do another one before the end of the year. I love it.

[A]

I saw that you read a book called the Warrior Athlete. You said I kept a book called the Warrior Athlete close at hand. What is it about the Warrior Athlete? How did it help you?

[B]

I don't remember a ton about the Warrior Athlete. This was back when I was like 18. I remember a couple things. I remember there's a great line in the book where it's this coach explaining the mentality of people he coached, some of whom had won Olympic medals. And there's an amazing line in it that will always stick with me where the guy says, people sometimes ask me, do you have your athletes meditate before competition? And he's like, no, I have them meditate in competition. And I just loved that. I loved the notion that like when you're competing, you're in a meditative flow state. And I've held that with me, you know, throughout my life. The point in the book I was making there, it's, you know, that's a lesson I've held with me. Like that is a lesson that like 18 year old Nick has for 50 year old Nick. There are a bunch of other things I did at 18 which were insane. You know, I would lose a race and I'd like go run sprints immediately afterwards. Like, don't do that, right? You know, the dumbest thing I did, I guess this was when I was 16. I'm like, you know, I should have better stomach muscles. And so I like, I watched Dances with Wolves at home things over Thanksgiving or something. And I like try to do sit ups the entire movie, right? And that is a long movie, right? Like Kevin Costner goes on and on in that movie. But I did sit ups the entire Dances With Wolves. And then of course I pulled a muscle on my abdomen shortly thereafter. So, you know, I was a pretty headstrong kid. Like just trying to like charge through it all. Probably like my 15 year old is now. Even though I try to tell him to like chill out sometimes.

[A]

So I hinted at that. I want to talk about the business side of things too. You're not just a runner. Even though your times and how you win, you would think maybe that's all you did. But you're the CEO of the Atlantic, right? And I read that when Laureen Powell Jobs, right, this is Steve Jobs, widow, and David Bradley announced you as the CEO, they said Nick is singular. Interesting. We've seen no one like him. And that he brought, quote, a surround sound coverage of relevant experience. Man, that is awesome. What did you do to get Lorraine Powell Jobs to say Nick is singular? And by the way, what does that mean?

[B]

Well, I think what it meant for them is that I had like a mix of talents that was rare or a mix of experiences that was rare. And what they were looking for in the CEO, like there are a lot of people who've been much more successful in business than I've been, right? They've run bigger companies, they've turned things around that were harder. But what I had was I had been a real journalist, like a serious journalist. I'd worked at the New Yorker for six years. I'd written important stories, I'd written a book. So I had journalism and then I had tech experience, right? I'd covered Silicon Valley. I'd started two startups. I understood how Silicon Valley worked. And then I had business experience, right? And it was the combination of those three things that they liked and they hadn't seen. I'm sure they had candidates who were stronger in each of those categories, but I don't think they'd seen anybody who had strengths in all three. And so it was just they wanted someone who could kind of pitch and play second base and you know, steal bases, right? Like they wanted like some combination. Well, not. I mean, not quite because Shohei is like the best in the world at hitting, right? It would be like if Shohei was like a 270 hitter and had an ERA of 420 and stole 20 bases a year. That's what they were like looking for.

[A]

Was it by design that you tried to develop all of these different skill sets or was it you just kind of tackled what was in front of you.

[B]

It's the way my personality works, and it's always been my strength and my weakness. Right. You know, if you go back and you look at the people who've watched me most closely, they have always said, including my father, including my best bosses, including my college advisors. Right. Like, the thing that Nick is best at is, you know, he has tons of energy and does lots of things and cares about them all. And the thing that we wish we could get him to do is to, like, really lock in on one thing. And, you know, like, I had three majors in college, but probably each of my advisors across those three majors wishes I had, like, really focused a little bit more on whatever that major was. And so it just turned out that I had done lots of different stuff, and so it worked out well for the Atlantic CEO job.

[A]

So you think that's more of just how you're wired and you're still this way?

[B]

That's how I'm wired. I like to. You could see it in this marathon, right? Like, where I ran a marathon, ran a pretty good marathon, but would have done a better marathon if I'd really focused on it. My favorite comment after the marathon was a friend of mine who one of the most legendary New York City marathoners. He put a note on my Strava. He ran 20 consecutive New York marathons at sub 240. And he's like, nick, marathon gods don't like it if you're not fully focused on the marathon, even if what you're focused on is promoting a book about the marathon. So it's just my nature. I like to do things. I like to be moving around. I like to talk to lots of people. I like to have lots of different projects. And so the trick for me is making sure that I'm putting enough attention into a small number of things that really matter. And so that's something I'm always trying to get right.

[A]

So I told you before we started recording, but your book, the Running Ground, it's one of my favorite books I've read in years.

[B]

That's awesome. That's awesome.

[A]

I could not stop.

[B]

That's so cool. I'm so glad to hear that. Did you read in, like, a day?

[A]

A couple days.

[B]

Because I tried so hard to make it, like, readable in a short period of time.

[A]

Well, it started with. You put an excerpt and a number of friends of mine, my smartest friends, were sharing it on Twitter and other places, and I was like, man, I got. I Got to read this. And the extra, as I got in the book was actually different pieces of the book because I'm like, wait, I've seen this.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So we pulled different parts and put it all together in one thing, which was brilliantly done, by the way. That that alone is awesome as well. I think it's the first thing you ever published for the Atlantic. Is that right?

[B]

Sure is. Like, despite being the CEO, never wrote for it. Yeah.

[A]

Which is wild. But anyway, the reason I love it is because it's written almost like it's a fiction story, but it's a real story, and it's a kind of a memoir. And you're very vulnerable, but not in a cheesy or a weird way to, like, get clicks, but just in a genuine way. You're obviously a beautiful storyteller and an incredible writer. I'd love to hear just what you were thinking and how you did it, how you put it all together to go there and tell the truth about your dad and about your insecurities as a father and trying to be a good dad. But we're all trying to figure it out. What was it like as you're trying to put that book together? Because it's so personal.

[B]

It's very personal. And it was a very hard book to write for a couple reasons. Took me five years. Obvious, because I'm CEO of the Atlantic and I have a busy job. But I would just say I'm going to spend, you know, 30 minutes on it today, Right. I'm gonna set a timer, and I'll work 30 minutes before my kids wake up. Then I'll work on it. Or I'll work on it 30 minutes tonight after the kids go to bed. Right. I'll just figure out how I'm gonna get a little bit of. Just make steady progress every day. It doesn't matter how long this book takes, as long as I'm getting there.

[A]

Kind of like running steady progress every day.

[B]

Totally. Exactly right. And that was like, I literally, like, had a box. And, like, how many consecutive days have I worked 30 minutes or more on this book? Right. And it was basically every day for years. What was hard about the book were a few things. One is, the structure was really complicated. I knew I wanted to tell my story. I knew I wanted to tell my story of how I went from being a good runner to being a very good runner. I wanted to tell my father's story about how running helped him hold his life together at a hard time, how he had dealt with his father, how he passed his gift of running to me and then his later chaos. And then I wanted to tell the stories of some other runners, in part because I wanted to universalize the experience of running, and I wanted to get in people who could teach you things that my life story can't teach you. Right. And can show you things that my life story can't show you. But I didn't want to just pick people off Wikipedia or, you know, read Runner's World, and I wanted to, like, find people who I knew right. And who crossed paths with me so that it would fit into my narrative. So the first part of the project was, like, calling lots of people and talking to lots of different runners and trying to figure out their life stories and figuring out who I'd put where. And then once I had that, I had the challenge of how do you put it together in a way that's smooth, right? And so how do you make it chronological? Because my life and my dad's life, if you tell him chronologically, my dad's life all happens before my life. And that doesn't make sense, because then the reader will get lost. Like, why are we reading a book about Scott Thompson? This is supposed to be a book about Nick Thompson. Then how do you fit the other runners in? You want to put them in chronologically, but they're born at different times. And so I had this puzzle that took me a couple years to figure out of where I would put the other runners, where I put myself. And there are a couple of decisions I made that made the book work. So one is I decided that the first chapter would be a description of everything that happened in my mind during one race. And I did that because the book is really about the mind of a runner, like, what goes on in a runner's head. And I wanted to make it clear to the reader that this is not a biography. It's not an autobiography. This is an essay about running and what it means. I wanted there to be an emotional connection between Nick Thompson and the reader immediately. And so that was a very good choice. Then I had a hard time figuring out which race it should be. Like, should it be my best race? Should it be the worst race? Ultimately chose the 2007 New York Marathon because it tied in so closely with my cancer diagnosis. So I did that. Then that allowed me to kind of fit pieces together more chronologically. And what I did is I would overlay my life and my father's life. So it was like my dad's time. We went to the same high School and college. So it was my dad's time at Ann Arbor, my time at Andover, my dad's time at Stanford, my time at Stanford. And once I'd done that, then the pieces all fit together. And so then I was able to chronologically make a structure. I was able to introduce the characters when they enter my life. Then the book worked. And so the hardest part was writing about my dad was hard. Reading his diaries was hard. Thinking through what it means to expose all the sort of negative stuff of his life is hard. But what was really hard is turning it into a coherent whole. And that was what I spent the most time on.

[A]

You are an exceptional storyteller. Again, you moved me to tears multiple times through the beauty of the written word, which I so admire. The craft of writing, and written some books. I'm always in the process of writing the next one. It's really hard. You question yourself. You wonder, is this any good? You get writers envy all the time. I hope you do, even though I don't know how, because I don't know who you would read to envy, but I definitely do, especially reading your work or reading like Morgan Housel or some of my other friends. I just love to hear your overall philosophy on storytelling. I know you've done it for a long time, Right. You're in this world. You're the CEO of the Atlantic, but just the craft of storytelling. I think this is a skill that leaders need. It's a mandatory skill for leaders to get good at, and not enough of them study it and try to improve at it. If you were teaching a class of CEOs or senior leaders, and it's just about storytelling, Right? So these are like, business people. What are some of the elements of that class? What are some of the must haves in that class of storytelling for leaders?

[B]

Yeah. So one is like, I think of it as the cocktail party test. And if you were to describe the thing you're writing or the scene you're writing, and you were to start talking about it at a cocktail party, would people come towards you, or would people walk away? And if people would walk away, then you don't have it. You know, I can start talking about, like, my 2005 cancer diagnosis and the 2007 New York Marathon, and people lock in. I start Talking about my 2009 New York Marathon, and no one cares. And so you can kind of test with your friends and sort of see, like, what has emotional resonance, what pulls people in. I also sometimes think of it as, like, the movie test. Can you Visualize. And can you run a movie in your head about what I'm writing about? Like, can you see it? Can you feel it? Because that's what's happening when somebody's reading a book. They're visualizing it in their mind's eye. And so if you can do that, then I'm succeeding. And if you can't, well, then it shouldn't be on the page. And so those are two tests that I like to use. And then another thing that's so important is every extra word, every extra thought, every extra detail that doesn't propel the story from where you are to the next spot or to the finish needs to be removed. Because every detail is an opportunity for distraction or opportunity to leave. And so you have a sentence or you have a name, right? You have the name of a person that's put in there. If that name is not essential, that name is potentially going to lead the other person out of the story and out of where you want them to be. This book is like 75,000 words long, and there's like 60,000 words that I cut. I just went through and I was like, is this sentence absolutely essential to the story? No, it is not. It's gone. You know, it went through with the running. There are a lot of races I brought in my life that I care a lot about that mean something to me. And like, one out of every 20 of them is mentioned. And you're just taking stuff out non stop. And that's a really important part of storytelling. But really, it's like, it's that first question of if you're to say it orally, will the people emotionally connect? And let me just say one thing about writers End. Because I get that a lot, too. There are a lot of writers who I just think are amazing and I wish I could be like. And what I do with that is I read their work out loud. And so I will take a piece by someone who I think is a great writer, right? Let's say it's David Remmer. Let's say it's Larissa McFarquhar. It's this amazing New Yorker writer. I will read her stories out loud and think about, okay, what is she doing? How did this work? And then it helps me, I think, become a better writer.

[A]

Let's get really tactical. Okay, what are some tactical kind of things somebody could implement? Let's say they're not very good, but at least they have enough awareness that they're willing to work on it. Yeah, what are some tactical. I could implement it right now for my next town hall or my next meeting or my next quarterly business review. And it will make it more entertaining. It will have the people kind of scooting to the edge of their seats and I'm like, oh, I wonder what Nick's about to say. You know, what are some of those things people could do right now that maybe if they self analyze, they're like, I don't have it yet.

[B]

Take whatever you've written and like legitimately look at it and say, will people be able to visualize a movie in my mind while I say this, right? Am I just saying like a bunch of words that you can't possibly visualize? I'm talking about tactics and OKRs and KPIs and like, will they have an emotional connection to this and if they won't try again, right? If it's important, right? Sometimes you should just go with your KPIs, your OKRs, and do you, like.

[A]

What do you do when you're talking okrs, KPI's, all these acronyms that not everybody knows even what you're talking about. How do you do that as a CEO, as a guy leading leaders? What do you do?

[B]

A. Like, I try very hard to, like, make sure there's an emotional point, right? Like, this is why this matters. Like, we are here today because we are trying to accomplish xyz. Like, try to, like, make it clear. This is. This is important, right? This is the magazine that Ralph Waldo Emerson started to create conversations to prevent American Civil War, right? And you try to tell a little story. The other thing that is so important, right? And one of the things I do in the book is like, if the reader can't visualize it, like, help them visualize it, right? So I don't know, let's say I'm talking about Ralph Waldo Emerson because I'm trying to make a point about the heritage of the Atlantic. Okay, well, this is, you know, this is a magazine that Ralph Waldo Emerson started in a little house in Concord, right? A little white house in Concord, right? And you can go into that house today and you can see their Atlantics in the attic. And Emerson would walk there and he'd walk around Walden Pond. You kind of make it so they're there with you and can visualize it, right? And then you're building the movie in their head so they can see it and they can feel it and they can hear it, right? Like, when I write about these characters in the book, I'm trying to give you a sense of them physically. I'm trying to give you a sense of the space. I'm trying to give you a sense that, like you're reading about Tony Ruiz, my coach, and like, you can hear his voice, right? You can feel him, you can see him, right? Even if you've never seen a picture of him. At least that's what I'm trying to do. And so when I'm talking to the staff, I'm doing a little bit. You don't want to overdo it because then you're cheesy, right? You want to be getting across, helping them visualize what you're talking about and understanding, like getting a real emotional connection to the goal.

[A]

I could talk about storytelling all day, but you're, again, you're also the CEO. And so I'm fascinated by the people that make up a company because they're everything. It is everything. As a CEO, what are some of the must haves you're looking for someone to hire? Well, let's say you're a part of the hiring process for any leadership role or any role at all within your company. What are those. Those must have attributes to, to say, yeah, I want them to be on my team.

[B]

We have this sort of, this slogan at the Atlantic. Spirit of generosity, force of ideas, sense of belonging. And the first two are, like, crucial when you're hiring.

[A]

You say this again.

[B]

Spirit of generosity, force of ideas, sense of belonging. Like, that's what we try to cultivate here. And spirit of generosity means can they work with people? Are they going to come in here and be territorial and are they going to say like, six months later? Actually, you know, I think the consumer team should report to me, right? Or I think that actually, like, you know, this new unit, that's mine, right? Or are they going to, like, figure out what's best for the org, figure out how to, like, pick up the slack? Are they going to work with folks? If you don't have a spirit of generosity, it's not going to work, right? And then force of ideas, like, are you smart? Are you sharp? Are you going to bring things? You know, I take those two things as a starting point. I think work ethic is so important. Like, are you the kind of person who. I like people who are just really driven and hardwired and I like edge, right? I like a little bit of, like, anxiety about how we're doing.

[A]

You know, I want, like, productively paranoid.

[B]

Yeah, a little bit productively paranoid is a very good way to put it. There are too many people who are A little too comfortable and who come to the Atlantic or come to Journalist because it's such an amazing, prestigious place. And then they get here and it's doing so well and they're making money and they're owned by a billionaire. It's okay. It's going to be fine. And it'll take care of me. And what I want is, okay, did this get done? Let's get the next thing done. This get done. It gets the next thing done. And you don't have to work. I don't need people to work 100 hours a week, but I do need, I do need an edge. And I really like that in people who you just feel it. They're kind to everybody. You know, they're good to work with, but they're not, they're not complacent. So that's super, super important. And then, you know, teamwork, like filling in the gaps. Like I have an amazing leadership team. We've like almost no turnover in the last three years came in and there are clearly some, some people who, you know, didn't work well with me, whether that's my fault or their fault. So we made a whole bunch of changes and now it's been smooth sailing. And that's, I think, one of the reasons why it's been so successful the last couple years.

[A]

Are any of them big time runners?

[B]

I don't think we have any other big time runners here, really. There are a lot of journalists who. A surprising number of people are elite runners in journalism like the New Yorker. George Packer, one of my favorite writers in the world, ran like a 246 marathon 40 years ago. Ann Goldstein, who ran a copy desk at the New Yorker, I'd run like a 310. She was like 70 years old then. There are things you are a little nerdy, a little cerebral, and those things kind of over index and running and they kind of.

[A]

I think you have to be a little nuts to run as fast as you do for as long as you do, because that means you have to be insane about your training.

[B]

Yeah, I mean there are reasons why there's certain mental skills that are certain habits of mind that come from running that I think help in journalism and help in life. And there's kind of the dedication, there's the understanding of pacing, there's a kind of a mental clarity that comes from being outside all the time and being in your own head. There's a little bit of understanding your own philosophy. There's some really positive habits and there's Some negative ones. If you run really fast, you probably train a lot. It takes a lot of time and can also make you self absorbed. It can make you selfish. You, like, you spend all this time focusing on yourself, and you have to push those things aside so you know, everything you do reinforces your personality and makes you who you are. And so there are a lot of ways being an intense runner helps you in this field, and there's some ways where it doesn't.

[A]

This is something I maybe should not say, but I'm curious to hear from you.

[B]

Definitely say it.

[A]

So I'm like a workout, everyday guy. My background's in sports, football, leadership positions as a quarterback. So I like to lift weights. I like to do running, but in different ways than you. I want to be in shape. I sometimes struggle when I'm with other leaders or leadership positions of people who don't seem to be that disciplined. They let themselves go physically because I feel like you could let yourself go mentally. So maybe they look way out of shape or they're not disciplined with what they eat, whatever. Again, this. This is a judgmental thing. And I like being curious, not judgmental, like Ted Lasso.

[B]

Right.

[A]

How about you, man? Like, you're psycho, you're disciplined, you're nerdy, you're all these things. You're super smart. You run really, really fast for very long distances. How do you manage that? Or do you. Do you find yourself being judgmental at times when you see people who aren't disciplined like you?

[B]

Well, the discipline can come in so many different ways. You know, I think about some of my best colleagues. I don't know the guy I work with the most, the editor in chief of the Atlantic. Has he ever run a mile? I doubt it. Has he ever lifted a weight? Like, I mean, yeah, sure, he would, I guess, when he was young and he was. He was in the military, but, like, the last 25 years. No. Is he disciplined? Hell, yeah. Right. Works all the time, writes all the time. Like, puts his life on, like, focused on every sentence at the Atlantic.

[A]

The military background, though, seems like a guy would have that as a fundamental part of his life. Yeah.

[B]

But just doesn't have the physical. Like, the. The physical thing is gone. So I don't mind people who don't worry about their physical discipline as long as they still have the mental discipline.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

I think you can definitely have one. And I've had great. Really? Yeah.

[A]

So do you think they can be completely separate? Like, I can be super focused and disciplined here, but over here, I'M just. I don't care. I don't. I don't know. Like, what do you think?

[B]

I think you can. I think there are definitely people who can be. Yeah. And also, like, sometimes you just need to get different things from people. So. One of the most interesting people I've ever met, this guy who was friends with my father, of course, and they'd met at Oxford. He was this man, he's still with us, actually, in his mid-80s. And he had the most incredible mind. He would go to the library and he'd read multiple books a day, speed read them, could remember everything, could multiply six digit numbers by each other in his head and could talk to you about anything. I remember once I wrote a book on the Cold war and I read it out loud to him and he fact checked it as we went along. He's like, no, Dean Atchison was not born that year. He was born this year. And he didn't work at Covington. He worked at Sherman and Sterling or the other way around. Like, the guy was incredible, right? And he had the most remarkable discipline for his memory and his mind. But he also, like, couldn't dress himself. He had like one change of clothes, weighed like 200 something pounds, and drank only Diet Coke. And I once went to his apartment and like there was just like a mattress with no sheets and like cases of Diet Coke and books, right? And. And the world is full of people who are different and interesting. And one of the things that I try to cultivate is being able to get the most out of different kinds of people. So I actually brought that guy on the Washington Monthly where I worked, where he worked in the fact checking department. No one else in the office could handle him. So we didn't have him come into the office because he's too loud and too crazy. But we'd send him every story and he'd just read it and be like, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. And he'd always knew everything. He was like, he was basically chatgpt in a human brain. Before we had chatgpt. He would come over to my dad's house and he would just like, there'd be like a jug of Carlo Rossi wine, like the stuff you got for like499. And my dad would like buy these jugs all the time and he would just like take one. But you have pluses and minuses.

[A]

Oh, man. I love to close with something about parenting. We started with your dad. I'd like to end with you as a dad. You wrote, nothing makes me more Worried about failure than parenting. Parenting is suffused with regrets, confusion, and mistakes. But when I run by, I know my children are rooting for me to succeed with infinite love and enthusiasm. Man, how does running and parenting go together for you? And how are you striving to be a great dad?

[B]

You know, I strive to be a great dad by, like, really, like, trying to pay attention to what my kids want and trying to help them out and support them and never push them too hard and never force them and never. You try to not make the mistakes that my grandfather made. Try to not make the mistakes that I made. I know I'll make my own mistakes. And they'll be intimidated in different ways. You know, what my dad gave to me is just constant love. Like, he was chaotic and caused all kinds of hell. And I sure as hell hope I'm not, like, bankrupt in Southeast Asia begging my kids for money in 30 years. So maybe I'll have different problems. And so I try to, you know, I have three boys. I try to very much be there for them with running. Two of them run with me. One of them really wants to run a Marathon. The 15 year old. Yesterday, I ran that marathon. Everybody else was like, great job, Nick. You killed it. And he was like, that sucked.

[A]

These are the best at keeping you humble, aren't they?

[B]

Yeah, he was so funny. I come home, he's not there. He's off practicing. He practices all day. He's off at the park playing pickup soccer with adults. He comes back in, he's like, whoa, dad. He's like, Dad. 306. He's like, Let me tell you something. Do not put that on Strava. Do not tell anybody you ran. And, like, you got to go out there tomorrow and run a marathon by yourself and do better. It's like, thanks, man.

[A]

That's the best.

[B]

You know, he's awesome. Like, the kids, all three of them are just. They're amazing, wonderful people. And I. One of the nice things, I love spending time with them. Like, I just. I have so much fun. So that's good.

[A]

I love it, man. I know we gotta run, but one more before we run. You're meeting with somebody who's, you know, just finishing up at Stanford or some other university, and they. They want to leave a positive dent in the world. Like you're doing. What are some general pieces of life slash career advice you'd say to that person?

[B]

Well, you know, for someone who's just finishing up college right now, it's. This is like the hardest time I've, you know, it's always a hard time to finish up college. The world is always changing. It's always complicated. This is the hardest because of AI and the uncertainty about what the world will look like, you know, My advice is find the things you're passionate in and like, really focus on them. Lean into stuff you love. And sometimes it can be hard to determine what it is you love and what you're passionate about. Sometimes it can lead you astray. I spent some time with this in the book, but my 20s weren't great professionally. I found a career I loved, which was journalism, but I wasn't good at it yet. But find something you love and work at it and keep pushing and always work hard and eventually things will turn out for the best. I mentioned this earlier when sort of the stoicism and running, but I do feel like this for young people too, which is find a thing you love and keep going and keep working at it. And have faith that over time what you want to happen will happen and things will be okay.

[A]

So good man. The book's called the Running Ground, which there's a great. I just learned it when I was rereading this morning about the reason behind the title, which we get to later. But the Running Ground, a father, a son, and the simplest of sports, by the way, again, from someone who is not a long distance runner. The beauty of the writing and the storytelling is why you will love this book. It's one of my favorite books I've read in the last years. Because of the craft of the storytelling and how it moves you emotionally. I could absolutely feel that movie and my head. Whether it was with you, your dad, your kids, your wife, the characters you write about was amazing. So thank you man, for being here. I would love Nick to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man.

[B]

Totally. Brian, it was so great to talk with you. I'm so happy you like the book. Love chatting and thanks for having me on.

[A]

It is the end of the Podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the Podcast club. If you are, send me a Note [e-mail] Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Nick Thompson. A few takeaways from my notes. Stretch goals should make you uncomfortable. Nick said the best goals force you to move at a pace that doesn't feel sustainable. That's the whole point. This doesn't just apply to running, by the way. Growth happens when you're reaching beyond what feels natural. If your goals are comfortable, they're not big enough, then great storytelling, man, I could have went on this forever. Great storytelling requires emotional resonance and visualization. Nick asks himself, can the reader see the movie in their head? Can they feel it? Whether you're writing a book, pitching an idea, or leading a team, if people cannot visualize and feel what you're saying, you haven't done the work. And then afterwards, remove every extra word. Each one needs to move the story forward. All of us would be better doing this. And then I like talking about the people he hires at the Atlantic. They share four must have attributes. A spirit of generosity, a force of ideas. Got to be really smart. They're relentlessly hard workers, and they have an edge. Kind of an anxiety about getting great work done, a productive paranoia, as Jim Collins might say. That last one really, really stuck with me. Me, the best people, they're not just talented, they're driven by some sort of productive anxiety to do work that really matters. And then they want to do the next one and the next one and the next one. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader show with Nick Thompson. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify or Apple podcasts and you subscribe to the show, rate it, hopefully five stars, write a thoughtful review. By doing all of that, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.