Podcast Summary: The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk

Episode 665: Pat Lencioni – Five Dysfunctions of a Team, Fear-Based Success, Working Genius, Anticipating Objections, and the Hidden Cost of Proving Yourself
Date: December 8, 2025
Guest: Pat Lencioni
Host: Ryan Hawk

Overview

This episode features renowned author and organizational leadership expert Pat Lencioni, best known for The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, The Ideal Team Player, and creator of the Working Genius assessment. Pat and Ryan delve into the hidden costs of fear-driven achievement, the importance of understanding one's working genius, real world applications of his frameworks, parenting and affirmation, and the leadership tensions between humility and decisive authority. The conversation is lively, practical, and introspective, with contributions from Learning Leader Circle members and direct, actionable advice for leaders at any stage.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Art of Anticipating Objections

[02:45] Pat Lencioni:

• Pat considers his ability to "anticipate people's objections" as a primary mastery.
• He credits this skill to early experiences seeking approval, shaping his empathy and leadership approach.
  • “I think I'm really good at anticipating people's objections… I like to go there first and say to people, ‘Hey, I know you're probably wondering this.’” (Pat Lencioni, 02:45)
• Suggests empathetic leadership comes, in part, from childhood wounds.

2. Fear-Based Achievement and Childhood Wounds

[04:46] Pat Lencioni:

• Achievements (valedictorian, student leader, point guard, etc.) masked a “childhood wound” of non-affirming parents.
• He describes constantly feeling the need to “prove” himself, emphasizing that perfectionism came from fear rather than passion.
• Only through reflection and counseling did Pat recognize the difference between fear-driven achievement and authentic fulfillment.
  • “I always felt like I needed to prove myself… I was way, way, way too concerned about being perfect… I was like, oh, I better be perfect. And they [my parents] didn't know what they were doing, and I didn't know it either.” (Pat Lencioni, 04:46)

3. The Fine Line: Pushing vs. Protecting – Parenting and Affirmation

[08:30] Pat Lencioni:

• Society has shifted from under-affirmation to over-affirmation.
• Pat argues both extremes are unhealthy: suffering and safe struggle are necessary for development but must be balanced with affirmation and love.
  • “Necessary suffering for their development… My hope is that we break that cycle, that they’re going to be able to raise their kids with enough affirmation to feel safe, but not so much that they’re afraid to suffer.” (Pat Lencioni, 08:30)

4. The Team Trifecta: Ideal Team Player, Working Genius, Five Dysfunctions

[09:57 & 11:59] Pat Lencioni:

• Outlines the sequence:
  1. Hire “humble, hungry, and smart” people (Ideal Team Player).
  2. Get people in the “right seat” based on their “working genius.”
  3. Use the Five Dysfunctions framework to build trust, healthy conflict, commitment, accountability, and focus on results.
• Stresses these are “field research” validated, from practical observation, and rooted in his own gifts of invention and discernment.
  • “I come up with ideas all the time… every new idea I've come up with has been in the field working with people and thinking ‘I think that might work.’” (Pat Lencioni, 11:59)

5. Embracing Weakness, Outsourcing Frustrations, and Working Genius

[14:01 & 21:45] Pat Lencioni:

• Pat admits he is terrible at finishing things, only succeeding through support and fear of failure.
• Advocates celebrating weaknesses as much as strengths: don’t train weaknesses for the sake of it; instead, lean into your “working genius” and outsource where possible.
  • “Celebrate what we suck at. Which doesn’t mean we don’t have to do some of it… but that’s not who you’re meant to be… Don’t denigrate yourself because you’re not the same as your brother or your friends.” (Pat Lencioni, 14:44)
• Cites the story of his wife’s relief at the Working Genius framework validating her frustrations with household management:
  • “When the working genius came out five years ago, she read it and she had tears in her eyes and she said, it's wonderful. And I'm so pissed off… because I've been living in my working frustrations for a long time and I always thought I had to.” (Pat Lencioni, 21:45)

6. Team Examples: Highlighting Gaps and Synergies

[25:46] Team Map Discussion:

• Analysis of the Learning Leader coaches team:
  • All high on “tenacity” but lacking “wonder” and “invention”—great at finishing, less at ideation.
  • Suggestion: borrow or involve others (e.g., spouses) to fill gaps and balance the team.
  • “What you guys need to do, you will never be flaky. Your team will never be flaky… However, what they might do though is stick to something that needs to be changed a little longer than it should be.” (Pat Lencioni, 25:51 & 28:00)

7. Five Dysfunctions in Athletics

[30:46] Pat Lencioni and Brooke:

• NBA coach Eric Spoelstra used Five Dysfunctions framework when LeBron James joined the Miami Heat.
• On sports teams, real vulnerability-based trust—owning mistakes in front of teammates—is crucial.
  • “When people can be so vulnerable that they can say it was my fault or I need help… it changes everything.” (Pat Lencioni, 30:46)
• Implements “humble, hungry, smart” language with athletes, with self and team accountability.

8. Leadership: Authority and Humility

[43:13 & 46:06] Pat Lencioni:

• Essential leadership paradox:
  • Leaders must believe they are not inherently more important than anyone, yet acknowledge their words/actions have outsized impact.
  • Sometimes, leaders must “break the tie”—make the call even when there is no consensus.
• Pat shares a story where he “pulled the CEO card” and even swore to make it emphatic:
  • “I said, listen, I'm pulling the CEO card right now. I don't do it all that often, but since I am the CEO, I'm going to say this, what you guys are talking about, this is the thing we have to work on.” (Pat Lencioni, 46:08)

9. The Motive for Leadership

[48:35] Pat Lencioni:

• Motive is everything: do not pursue leadership for ego or perks; be driven by a calling to sacrifice and serve others.
• Personal economics of leadership are “not good”—it’s not for those seeking comfort or self-glorification.
  • “If you don’t know why you want to be a leader, you shouldn’t be a leader… make sure that your motive for being a leader is about sacrificing and suffering for others.” (Pat Lencioni, 48:36)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Anticipating Objections:
  “I think maybe I've mastered the art of anticipating people's objections.” (Pat Lencioni, 02:45)

• On Hidden Cost of Achievement:
  “When people tell you they got straight A's and they were valedictorian... there's a wound there.” (Pat Lencioni, 04:46)

• On Parental Affirmation:
  “My hope is that we break that cycle, that they're going to be able to raise their kids with enough affirmation to feel safe, but not so much that they’re afraid to suffer.” (Pat Lencioni, 08:30)

• On the Motive of Leadership:
  “Leadership is a lonely and selfless thing… the personal economics of leadership are not good.” (Pat Lencioni, 48:36)

• On Team Vulnerability:
  “When people can be so vulnerable that they can say it was my fault or I need help… it changes everything.” (Pat Lencioni, 30:46)

• On Authority:
  “There's so many times when there's no right answer... you have to go, I think it's B. We're going with B.” (Pat Lencioni, 45:35)

• On Letting Go of Weaknesses:
  “Celebrate what we suck at.” (Pat Lencioni, 14:44)

Audience Q&A Highlights

• Brooke (Coach):
  Tips on using Five Dysfunctions for high school sports teams: Pat emphasizes vulnerability and concrete, shared language with “humble, hungry, smart” to coach each other.

• Sherry (Certified Working Genius):
  Burnout in enablement/tenacity leaders: Acknowledge proneness and ensure the team avoids overburdening these types.

• Liam Murray:
  What non-financial KPIs signal organizational health? Pat focuses on observable behaviors: quality of meetings, people’s interactions, and retention of good people versus just the numbers.

• Garen Stokes:
  On humility vs. self-improvement: True humility is team-focused, not self-effacing or ego-driven. Leaders must balance confidence with the team's needs.

Timestamps of Important Segments

• [02:45] Anticipating objections as a leadership superpower
• [04:46] The hidden wounds behind achievement
• [08:30] The pitfalls of over- and under-affirmation in parenting
• [09:57] The “teammate trifecta” approach
• [11:59] How Pat’s unique “working genius” shaped his work
• [14:01] Why fear-based success isn’t sustainable
• [21:45] Outsourcing your “working frustrations” instead of powering through
• [25:46] Team map analysis and practical application
• [30:46] Bringing “Five Dysfunctions” to high school and pro sports
• [43:13] The leader’s crucial balancing act: humility and authority
• [46:08] Pulling the CEO card (and sometimes cursing)
• [48:35] The right and wrong motives for seeking leadership

Tone and Language

• Honest, introspective, and practical.
• Pat blends candor about his own struggles with humor and optimism.
• Audience participation adds real-world context.

Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode offers deep insight into both the personal and operational sides of leadership. Pat Lencioni reveals the hidden costs of fear-driven achievement, advocates for strengths-based teamwork, and dispels the myth that leaders must be great at everything. He pushes leaders to examine their motives, embrace team vulnerability, and understand when to take charge. The discussion is rich with practical examples and quotes, making it a must-listen for those seeking to grow in leadership, parenthood, and personal development.