← The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
670: Mike Deegan - Building a Championship Culture, Mudita (Joy for Others), Systems Thinking, Curiosity = Love, Getting Out of a Slump, and The DNA of Great Teams
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- [00:03]
Ryan Hawk
Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Go to learningleader.com for show notes of this and all podcast episodes. Go to learningleader.com now on to the night's featured leader. Mike Deegan just led Denison University baseball to their first College World Series appearance in program history. He's been named Coach of the Year in back to back years and he is the all time winningest coach in school history. But we didn't focus much on winning games. We talked about how Mike uses a Buddhist concept called Mudita to help build the culture of his team. Mike also shared how he helps his players get out of a slump and how you could use the same tactics to bounce back from the adversity in your lives. And then we also went deep on the recruiting slash hiring process. Who you choose to hire, why and when is it the right time to take a chance on a risky but really talented person? I thought Mike's story on that was really, really good. And then Mike closes a conversation with a phrase that he writes on every lineup card for himself. I think you'll like it. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Mike Deegan. This episode is brought to you by Insight Global. Insight Global is a stock staffing and professional services company dedicated to empowering people through the dignity of work. If you need to hire full time employees, contract employees, or a partner that you can trust for outsourced professional services, Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world have the hustle and grit to deliver. Hiring can be tough, but hiring the right person can be magic. Visit insightglobal.com learningleader that's insightglobal.com learningleader to learn more. Take me inside this whole idea of Mudita and how it's helped you.
- [02:17]
Mike Deegan
So we define it as vicarious joys. Can I be happy for another success as if it's my own? And to me that is like the secret sauce of maybe life. Obviously in a sports team not everyone can be the star. And so you know, we talk about DNA of championship type teams. I always say one of the biggest misconceptions is that star rotates. So yeah, you need a superstar to compete at the highest levels, you need that. But to win you're going to need pinch runners. You're going to need the guy laying a big block. You're going to need like there's so many parts. It's not just what maybe the majority of people want to see and believe. It's going to Take everyone. So it's really celebrating everyone's contribution.
- [02:59]
Ryan Hawk
That sounds awesome. I think every leader goes, yeah, of course, Mike. I'm going to implement that into my team for sure. But it's one thing to say it and to want it to be true, but how do you actually make it true?
- [03:09]
Mike Deegan
One, I think it's like anything else. You're beating the drum as a leader. You know, you're going to really drill home this message. I hope the behaviors of myself and our staff, like, we embody that as well. Like, we're not. I don't need to be lead from the front. I can kind of let other people celebrate in our success as well. And then, I don't know. To me, Ryan, it's just really practical. I break it down. We start in the recruiting process, and I turn to the parents. So I give a little mudita talk, and then I go, can you be happy for another kid's success as if it's your own? And so. But think about this in just so many different ways. If your neighbor gets a new car, are you happy for them? Or do you say, oh, I wish, you know, I bet his parents bought that for him. Or, you know, there's just different ways to show up for people where you can just have joy and then what? I will say there's a selfish component to it. I think when you do that, life rewards you in different ways and it brings it back to you. So by pouring yourself into others, especially in sports, I think it frees you up to perform your best. That makes any sense. Like, if I can get out of myself and get into the team, I think that frees me up to be a better player, better person, better teammate.
- [04:12]
Ryan Hawk
It feels like you've eliminated envy. Is that an accurate statement? I mean, to be genuinely happy for your neighbor, to get a cool car, a lot of the, you know, keeping up with the Joneses, I'm going to go get a nice car. I mean, that's like, natural stuff of life. But is that an accurate statement? Have you. Have you.
- [04:29]
Mike Deegan
I'm shooting for that. And I think anyone who's around me would feel that as well. Like, I think they would feel that. I have a friend that just built a nice barn with basketball court and weight room, and I text him afterwards. I was like, hey, man. Like, that is amazing. Now there's a part of me, it's like, I got a nice basement, too, but I don't have that. And that kind of. But I don't want anyone to feel that. I think what we're saying is envy is a natural feeling. I don't think mudita wanting to do great yourself. Those are very natural. And I want people to live in that space. But can we just stop it and be a little bit more intentional and just celebrate what other people are doing? Well, and I think. I don't know, Ryan, people who have that kind of level of success, you know, we had a dinner a couple weeks ago, and it didn't happen by accident. It happened by a lot of intentional things along the way. So I just want to celebrate and reward people for the hard work that they've done and for the result that they're now getting.
- [05:22]
Ryan Hawk
One of the cool things I felt at that dinner was you had, like, a genuine curiosity and fascination with every person at that table. You didn't defer from yourself because you speak when spoken to. But I don't know, I came away just really liking you. And it's the first time we ever met in person, you know, so I'm super grateful that James and you. James clear and you are good buddies. And he. I asked them to bring high character, put a positive dent in the world type people. And you were one of the handful of people that he brought. And I was like, man, I love that Mike guy. I told James afterwards, we were walking and just rehashing the night and how cool it was, but I really felt like that smile, that joy, that curiosity, I'm like, that's probably why this dude has won a billion games as a baseball coach is because of that part. And that seems like it stems from that eliminating envy that mudita the being genuinely happy and curious about other people.
- [06:21]
Mike Deegan
Yeah, thank you for saying that. And I felt the same way. But I. I spoke to you, but I do a little consulting work with the Blue Jays, and one of my roles is to go observe. And I think there's two ways as a consultant you can do things. One is to find the negative, and that's really easy to do, But I try to go and spot the good first. That's. I always try to pour into spine the good. And that's probably how I showed up that day. You just want to find the good and just. And there's plenty of time to nitpick later on about whatever it may, and you're going to find some things and opportunities to help people grow. But if you can just be really curious and, I don't know, it's like a childlike amazement thing. That dinner was pretty easy because you're surrounded by, like, you did what? Like, how many books did you sell? How big did you grow your business? Tell me more. Right. Like, that's easy. But if we sat down and if it was a consulting work, I bet there's ways that we could help them improve in other ways. So it's not just, you know, being this overly positive, optimistic person. It's not, but it's. I think it's starting there. I think it's trying to default to that lens first, and then you can dig into some other things.
- [07:25]
Ryan Hawk
I like this idea of spotting the good first. So let's say the Blue Jays bring you in, and we talked about the fact that you were hanging out with those guys, the owners and the senior leaders, during game seven of the World Series when the Dodgers got them. But if you hire consultants, usually what they do is they spot the bad, and then they tell you about the bad, and then they tell you to cut people and save money and blah, blah, blah, whatever. So what does it look like in practice to spot the good first?
- [07:54]
Mike Deegan
For me, it starts with a lot of questioning, asking, and just amazement. Like, hey, you know, why do you do that? I saw, you know, the training plan for today, and. And then I think you get people to open up. I think people love to talk about themselves. My wife is very quiet, a great listener, and people love. She has a million best friends, and no one knows it just because she doesn't talk a whole lot. She just listens. And so if you can just listen and get people to talk about what they're passionate about, to me, like, it's a life secret. I feel like doing what I've done for as long as I have. You can tell when someone's really passionate about what they're doing, and you can tell when they're on the fence because they speed up when they talk. They get a little excited. And so that's like spotting the good, to me, is just getting people to talk about what they're excited about and then asking questions. And then when you ask questions one, you'll see if they can go another level with you. Can you really dig in there now? Like, can you really tell me about that drill? Can you really tell me about it? Or are you just kind of feeling your way out as well? But if you start with questions, I think that's a great place to begin.
- [08:52]
Ryan Hawk
I think one of the greatest ways to both show love to somebody else and the way I receive it as well is curiosity. Not fake, like, whatever, but genuine curiosity in someone else's story. When Ilya who was sitting to your left was talking about immigrating here when he was 10 years old from Uzbekistan and asking him follow up questions to go deeper into creating his business until eventually you learn the dude sells it for a billion dollars. And we're like, what, what is happening here? How did this guy get at this table? And he's just so kind of casual, but you know, there's so much more to the story. But anyway, showing someone, I think genuine curiosity, where you actually care, and then you listen and then you ask follow up questions and then you listen some more. That's how I'm guessing you're learning so much about the Blue Jays or whoever you're working with or your kids on your team, the parents of the kids in your team. It feels like that's how you're connecting with people. That's how you're building Mudita is through all of that genuine care and curiosity you have for others.
- [10:02]
Mike Deegan
Yeah, you nailed one. I wish, I wish you could have saw your face when he said what he sold the business for. It was almost like a double. Like you, whoa, like, wait a minute, like. And then if you, if you use that same story, if you think about that, that dynamic, then you just see him light up. But I think to go back to maybe the original part of this conversation, if you approach it from envy, we don't unpack the cool story of how they immigrated here and you know, his background and some of the struggles he has with his own kids now, meaning, like, they don't know what, how I grew up, you know, So I bet he had some kind of luck there just like most people. But if you lead with curiosity and not envy, it unpacks everything. And I do think it takes a level of self awareness and maybe comfort in your own skin, which I've had to earn over the years to go, hey, it's okay. I mean, it's really easy for me to label myself and say I'm just the Division 3 coach or I'm just a small college coach and I don't know if I could have sat in that room 10 years ago. But now you're like, hey, I'm comfortable with who I am, so I can get curious. It lacks envy. And let me just hear about you. I don't care what walk of life you're from. I'm just curious on how you're. You're showing up today.
- [11:08]
Ryan Hawk
You can sense when someone is comfortable in their own skin. I think it's very easy to feel it and to see it. As you talk with someone, how have you gotten so comfortable in your own skin?
- [11:19]
Mike Deegan
I think some of it is just doing the hard work and trying to develop some self awareness. And so there was a model by Mike Gervais, heard him say a long time ago, but this is kind of. I live by this. It's if you read a decent amount, if you write, and that was my forcing function, was to actually write and put thought to paper and then get around wise people and just have conversations, I think you'll start building out the awareness of who you are and what you value. Like I said, you get around these different groups and you meet mentors in your life that maybe are a couple spots higher than you in the status column, but they show up very natural and they value you and who you are. You learn that, hey, I'm okay. Like, if this person accepts me, then, then so could anybody else, really. So. But reading, writing, and then getting around wise people are kind of the three things I focus on.
- [12:08]
Ryan Hawk
I got you. I read that you played for a legendary coach when you were a player. You're a great basketball player and great baseball player, and you played for this legendary guy at Marietta. What made that guy so good? And what's his name?
- [12:21]
Mike Deegan
Don Shally. So Don Shali. Yeah, you're right. So appreciate you mentioning Coach Shally. He 40 years at Marietta. All time winningest coach. I always say he could have been a CEO. He could have done whatever. I mean, just had an ability to organize. He was ahead of the curve too, because see, around corners, if you talk to people like in the 70s and 80s from like New England, and it's a small college in southeastern Ohio, but they were getting letters from like two places and one was always Marietta. So like he was. Had a mailing campaign. So he was a systems thinker before that was probably like a buzzword. And then just had the ability to pull a lot out of you. I mean, was tough, was very rugged World War II kind of generation. So he came with that. You're always on your toes around him, always. But yeah, just the ability to lead. I think he could have done it in any endeavor.
- [13:08]
Ryan Hawk
What's a systems thinker?
- [13:09]
Mike Deegan
I think it's someone who can, who can build out frameworks that are built to put people and the organization in the best spot to win and be successful. And then it's a framework that outlasts, like, individuals. So coaches may leave or players may leave, but if you have a system built out that it can sustain losing certain individuals because Things are cranking. You can repeat the work, you can do iterations and quickly test if you're getting closer or further from your goals. But to me that's how I think about it. Just a framework for the processes that you want to build out for you to reach your shared goals and shared mission.
- [13:47]
Ryan Hawk
So what would be an example of a framework that you instituted and have built since you've been at Denison?
- [13:55]
Mike Deegan
It could be anything from how we develop hitters like offensively. And once again for me it starts with questions like what's our North Star? Right. So the North Star of Denison baseball is to compete on a national level and James Clear and the power of and like and provide an elite student athlete experience. And so when we combine those two things we think we have something unique. So that's like the shared purpose and that's the North Star that we're always shooting for. Then it becomes like what kind of environments are we going to try to create to make that come to life? What can we test and measure? So that's where you start thinking about like your hitting systems, your pitching system, how you recruit the system, you know, so there's all these things. So where myself recruiting is a lifeblood of anything attracting and retaining top talented companies the same way. But I can almost remove myself from that recruiting process outside of a very small portion of it which is probably the on campus visit because we do have a system in place that allows me to be less involved than probably some other head coaches.
- [14:54]
Ryan Hawk
I'm fascinated by recruiting, hiring, developing and this goes far beyond baseball. But let's say you have a kid and he's insanely talented. He can hit for power, hit for average, he can play defense like he's got it. But then you talk to him and maybe you talk to his parents and the character is not what you want. So this happens in business all the time. Usually like I worked in sales and so sometimes you'd have these lone wolves who they were just great. Like they could crush the number but they were not great team players. They didn't cheat or anything but they were close to the line sometimes, you know, they pushed it a little bit, they never went over it. And so you're like ah, character wise, not my favorite but can just flat out play. How do you handle that? What do you do when you're trying to build your team?
- [15:46]
Mike Deegan
I think probably the most underrated thing though that we've stumbled upon, it makes our recruiting coordinator who's cringe is when they sit with me. I Almost try to talk people out of coming here. You know, I'll say, hey, what's the main driver? If they say playing time, I'm like, hey, that's great, that's an awesome goal. But I wouldn't come here for that. Now we're going to play our best players. We started however many freshmen the year prior. But that's not why you come to Denison. You come to be a part of something bigger than yourself. And there are all these other places that you're going to have a much better shot at that going there. So I'm always listening in on what they value and trying to challenge it. So that's the first thing almost get people to self select out. The second thing I'll say is the better your culture is. You can take chances on people like this. It's like the Randy most of the New England Patriots, like Tom Brady was an alpha and you could bring people in and take a risk. Right. And see if they can conform to the culture a little bit. So when you have things in place and our locker room at Marietta, my last few years there was phenomenal. And people would say, hey, I don't know, this kid has some red flags. I'm like, red flags, like he's a serial killer or like red flags like that. He's super competitive and he's. Because the locker room would take care of a lot of that. So like in that sales force, if there's something built out that you feel pretty strongly about, I think you can take in some of these high risk, high reward people because they can't damage the culture like you would think they can. Now early on in that tenure I was very, very careful with this. But now we can take some chances on people if the DNA is right. Right. Like there's some things that are, that are non negotiable but for the most part we can take some chances.
- [17:18]
Ryan Hawk
Now that's interesting to hear you say because I thought you were going to take like a hard line like we just won't mess with that. But the reason I like that answer way more is because that's not real life.
- [17:29]
Mike Deegan
It's not reality. Right.
- [17:30]
Ryan Hawk
Humans are just messy. We are all messy. We all have our things. Some of us are, I guess, a little bit higher character than others. But also you're dealing with kids. And I remember at that age just being an idiot. You know, I didn't think I was an idiot and I tried my best, but also I was stupid in college and at times made poor choices. Still Worked hard and tried to be a good quarterback and a good teammate, take care of my lineman, all that stuff. So in a way, you have to be a human and realize that kids also need guys like Mike Deegan in their life to try to help them to play quarterback.
- [18:05]
Mike Deegan
You have to have a little cowboy in you. Right? Like, you have to. You have to have a little bit of.
- [18:09]
Ryan Hawk
Go right to that line. And sometimes you. Baker Mayfield over it, like, it happens, you know?
- [18:14]
Mike Deegan
Exactly. And no, had a guy, you know, old school baseball guy, lifer, he said to me, mike, I've never seen a great player doesn't have a little hot dog in him. And it's the truth. Like, right. Like, you're gonna have eyeballs on you all the time. There is a level. I'll use a strong word, like a level of narcissism that comes along with these.
- [18:30]
Ryan Hawk
Absolutely.
- [18:31]
Mike Deegan
You have to be able to go, I'm gonna throw an interception, and next time out, I'm gonna let it rip again. Right? So when people judge people too quickly and, God, this person has a big ego, I'm like, I don't know, let's. And there's an evolution to your point. I think when guys come in, if we're very direct early with them, they change over time. And not everyone. I mean, Ryan, like you said, humans are messy, organizations are messy. We don't get it right all the time, but I like to take our chances. And I think we have a proven track record of turning some questionable, you know, people that somebody may stay away. And we brought them on, and it worked out pretty well.
- [19:06]
Ryan Hawk
When you have those kind of edge cases where maybe they're supremely talented, can you think of, like, a guy or two who really bought into Mudita that really bought into the ethos of your team? That at the beginning was maybe selfish because we all, again, we've talked about great players. Sometimes you got to have some of that in you. I'd love to hear, like, a story or an example of a guy who really bought into that we had to.
- [19:30]
Mike Deegan
Keep from the Bronx, New York, who was just tough and rugged. And he'll probably listen to this, but I loved his background. I loved his family. I loved. I love the way his edge. But he did think he was the best hitter on the planet from the moment he walked in here. And it took us a little bit longer to get to him than we probably would have. We should have, actually. I mean, probably was ready to play earlier than we gave him a crack. But I think over time, he Appreciated how we just didn't give him anything. And I would say now he's probably one of our biggest supporters. And the way we approach, the way we do things, himself and his family, but just a tough kid that was always the best player that took a little while to play, but once he went, he went on to be an all American, to have a great career. So Brian's the guy that I would think of.
- [20:11]
Ryan Hawk
Don't you want guys, though, that think they're the best hitter in the world?
- [20:14]
Mike Deegan
That's what I'm saying. Like, that's what I'm saying. That's like, that's the dichotomy of all this. Like, yeah, you said it earlier. This is the reality. A salesperson is going to have a little bit of energy and a little push, and so you can't have a whole team like that. But I think that's where like, the smooth Dita thing comes in. If you start beating that drum early, can we get people to align with it? But yeah, you do. You. You need that confidence to be successful.
- [20:37]
Ryan Hawk
When you got the job, though, Dennison wasn't very good, Right? There's no culture. They didn't win. Whatever. You're the winningest coach in the history of the school. Right. And you've won to World Series. You got all Americans. It's humming, man. What was it like at the beginning, though? I love the beginnings of things and having to turn it around and build up a culture. Like, what was it like at the beginning and what did you do?
- [20:57]
Mike Deegan
I'm so appreciative of those early years, and I'm so appreciative of that question, because those are the tough times. And I actually missed those times as well, you know. Yeah, we started off with 43 guys in our first meeting. We finished with 24 that year. And I don't Ryan, believe it's because I was like a bully or pushing people around. I was just, these were the standards, and this is where we were going. And then people would self select out from day one. From day one.
- [21:22]
Ryan Hawk
What were the standards that you said in that first meeting?
- [21:25]
Mike Deegan
Man, I can't tell you, like, line by line, but just we were going to train at this thing way harder than before.
- [21:30]
Ryan Hawk
One of the phrases that I use sometimes with, like, my very close friends, my brother, is sometimes you say like, that's an unserious person. And what it means by being an unserious person is they're just not going to work hard. And it is the opposite of a compliment. With my Close friends. If you're unserious, what it means is when you go to work, you're going to work. You also, though, can have. You can laugh at yourself and you can joke and you don't take yourself too seriously. But when it comes to the thing that you do, I think you got to pour your entire heart and soul into it and give everything you've got and you got to be serious about that part of it. And so it feels to me like maybe you took over a program that was unserious and you said, okay, let's go.
- [22:13]
Mike Deegan
I don't think I can add anything much more to that than what you just said. The lack of seriousness in someone like myself, who is very serious about the work. Yes, it pushed people out. And every time someone quit, I would just say thank you. And I. I meant that too, Ron, because I'm. I'm the opposite of like, you know, I'm the opposite of probably the guy I played for, you know, I. But we were going this direction and it was going to take what it was going to take.
- [22:35]
Ryan Hawk
Did you guys lose initially? Did you have rocky times or. No. Did you turn it around immediately?
- [22:39]
Mike Deegan
We end up winning, like our side of the conference that year. I mean, it wasn't any first year. Yeah, first year the conference was split. So it's a little bit, you know, he's like a five team size. We won the NCAC west at the time, but so, yeah, we got it kind of cranking pretty quickly.
- [22:56]
Ryan Hawk
This reminds me of when I was in college. I played against Urban Meyer. Got the job at Bowling Green. Bowling Green. The year before we played them, they were terrible. It was one of those games you'd schedule them for homecoming like they were garbage. The next year, Urban gets a job in like January or whenever. I remember. And he was a. He was the assistant wide receiver coach at. At Notre Dame. He gets the head job at Bowling Green. They won the Mac. I mean, the next season, less than a year. And so I was like, what did you do, man? I mean, their winter workouts. I think he killed everybody. Only the toughest guys stuck around and they went and beat all of us. And so it was it like that. What did you do to have the instant turnaround?
- [23:35]
Mike Deegan
What I always observed, because we would play Dennis maybe once a year, like there was talent. Like talent was fine. It needed more seriousness to keep going back to that.
- [23:43]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah.
- [23:43]
Mike Deegan
So we had enough talent that it was going to allow us to compete at a conference level for us. So I think that was the first I don't want to minimize that. Like, there were good players. I remember we had won a national championship the year prior at Marietta, and when I got here in the fall was like, this pitching staff. While it's not what we had, it's not 13 and 25 versus 45 and 5 and the national championship difference. You know what I mean? So I was like, we can put some of this together. And then I think it's amazing when you can just put boundaries and guardrails and point people in the right direction. It's amazing what can happen. So we just provide a little structure, a little discipline. I'll never minimize my time at Marietta because it gives you a glimpse at what baseball is played at at the highest level of Division 3 baseball. It gives you. I didn't need to dream it. I actually knew in my mind what it looks like. So I think just putting some discipline around, some decent talent allowed us to have some success right away.
- [24:37]
Ryan Hawk
I told you before that I was recently asked to give a speech, and I rarely have the company that hires me to speak tell me what to talk about. This company. I did two talks for him. So one was kind of the one I usually do, which is around personal excellence and habits, routines, rituals of high performers, of 11 years of these conversations I've had. But then they're like, can you do another one with our entire company? And we want you to title it the DNA of Great Teams. I initially said, no, that's not what I do. But then I rethought. I'm like, you know what? Why not? Why not have something? I'm super uncomfortable. I built it from scratch, right? Something I had never done before. In the process of building that talk and then delivering it, which I did last week, was so cool. I mean, it was an amazing learning experience for me.
- [25:30]
Mike Deegan
Can you tell me a few things? You landed on there, or. I don't want. I don't. Could you tell me, you know, one.
- [25:34]
Ryan Hawk
Of the big stories that I learned about. Do you know those Chilean miners? The 33 guys who got stuck way, way down? I was trying to research excellent teams that were outside of sports, because I'm a sports guy, and I know sometimes not everybody in the audience wants to hear about sports all the time. So that story, how they quickly found roles, how they stuck together. They had enough food for two days, and they rationed it out, and they all ate together. They had certain areas down there that they did things together again. They had a spiritual leader. They had a medical guy. They had A guy to keep them on task. Like they had specific times, they slept specific times, they ate all together. Then they were, they would bathe. Like all these things. You're like, wait, I thought these guys were just stuck way, way down there. But the story of the Chilean miners, when they got stuck and how the leader too. Mike, you'd love this. And this would be you, the leader, the guy in charge of everybody once they were able to get the people out. He said, I'm going last of the 33, I'm going last. And so he waited a full 23 hours watching one guy go at a time. And then he eventually was the last guy out. Because that's what leaders do. Right? You take care of your people. And so there are some amazing stories out there and I appreciate you being a curious guy like you always have been since I've now met you recently. But I want to hear from you if you were writing that speech and this, I know I'm just putting this on you. The DNA of great teams. What are like some of the high level bullet points of the DNA of great teams, whether it's baseball or not? What do you think are some of those high level bullet points?
- [27:11]
Mike Deegan
I'm going to steal a little bit of your story and just kind of build off it a touch because what I heard, and I think this is how I would answer it, you mentioned right away roles like, so great teams are going to have, everyone has a role and to beat objective expectations. Like, so when good meets good, like that's what, that's what I love about like playoff baseball or playoff football. Like eventually good meets good. You have got to understand that every role is essential to the cause. So you think about that example. There's medical people, there's someone who's, who's digging hole, whatever, like it doesn't matter status goes away. Quarterback or the left tackle, like, everyone has a role, they're valued. And if we don't perform those roles at a championship level or world class level, we're in trouble. So roles secondly, I heard you mention was together, like the sacrifice. I think there has to be a bit of, like, we're in this together. So when you're down in the, when you're down in a hole like that, like there's no prima donna, like this thing's for everybody. And I think that's what happens with championship teams. Like, what's that saying, you can have anything you want in life, but you can't have everything you want?
- [28:16]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah.
- [28:16]
Mike Deegan
For us to compete on a National level. Our guys do miss out on a lot. And I tell us, the parents, like, grades may suffer everyone to say student athletes are better. Like, no, no, no. I mean, let's be completely honest. If we. You have a test trade off. Yeah. Like if there's trade offs with this thing. So a sacrifice is going to be a part of that. Then I hear discipline. Like, you know, they showered a certain times. Like, I think discipline and consistency is a superpower. And I think the sooner you can get that in life, the better. There may be something. Maybe not so much with young kids, but the people that I see that really excel in the professional baseball world, they seem to have a maturity about them at a much younger age. And that comes with discipline and consistency as well. And then the last thing you mentioned is I would say, like, leadership. There's going to be someone that's navigating the ship, that's kind of keeping everything moving in the right direction. In my beautiful world, it would be like where that person is not an egomaniac. They're not in front, they're just waiting for everyone to get out.
- [29:10]
Ryan Hawk
That's what, that's you, though, right? I mean, yeah, yeah.
- [29:15]
Mike Deegan
I think you would. I think people would echo that too. Think my behaviors echo that. And the last thing I would say, Ryan, that I'm done, I'll get off it is there's a joy. And I. And I don't know if there was joy in that rugged environment, but I do think that people tend to enjoy what they're doing. They do with a smile on their face. I always say, don't hire for when you think times are good. Hire for the person you want to be around when times are bad. Because they're coming, right? There's inevitable obstacles.
- [29:39]
Ryan Hawk
It's like any relationship, a marriage, anything, right? That's when it really gets real. I mean, I say everyone can be the team captain. When it's 40 to nothing at halftime, you're eating oranges in a football team, it's super easy. We're all, let's go, guys. You know what's hard is when you're getting punched in the face, right? You're in a slump. Like baseball, you have slumps, right? Like, oh, it's brutal. I gotta imagine, like, that's when great teams, they rally. Like, I coach my daughter's flag football team. One of my favorite things, Mike, my favorite things. There's two of them. One, let's say a girl messes up, she throws interception, she misses a flag, whatever. To see her Teammates is the thing I'm most proud of. To see her teammates rally around her. It's all good.
- [30:19]
Mike Deegan
We got you.
- [30:19]
Ryan Hawk
You know, like, all the things they say. These are. These girls are 11, right? To see them rally. The second thing that brings me so much joy, Right. Like, it makes me emotional, honestly, thinking about this is to see how genuinely excited they are when something good, like their teammate scores a touchdown, gets an interception. To see the genuine joy and enthusiasm. There's no envy there. They are so happy and pumped up. That's the beauty of sports, man. Like, that's the beauty of seeing good teams pick each other up when it's really, really hard and be genuinely excited and pumped for them. When it goes well, it's like, oh, it's just the best, man. I could go on forever, isn't it?
- [31:03]
Mike Deegan
It's just the best. It's kind of why we do what we do in those moments. Right? That's what it's all about. And I think the next layer that I may put this for, an arrow in your quiver for later, how they talk to their teammates, you can remind them that's how they should talk to themselves because. Yes. You know, whenever we struggle, we tend to. God, I'm the worst. Why to make that throw. You're an idiot. And you wouldn't talk to your best friend that way, Right? So I don't know. I had that conversation with one of our should have favors, but kid that I really admire in our team. I said, hey, man, like, I never hear you talk to your teammates. Like, you talk to yourself. Like, give yourself some grace.
- [31:33]
Ryan Hawk
I mean, super hard on himself.
- [31:34]
Mike Deegan
Yeah, super hard on. Yeah. Just, you know, just kind of.
- [31:37]
Ryan Hawk
Is that being really hard on yourself, though, part of what makes you great?
- [31:40]
Mike Deegan
I do. But I think it can also be a cop out because there's. There's ways to channel that. Like, I. I don't. Yeah. I think sometimes people say I'm a perfectionist or that's just, like, who I am. Like, ah, come on, man. Like a perfectionist. To me, they put in an insane amount of work to earn the right to be. I think we use that term pretty lightly sometimes.
- [31:58]
Ryan Hawk
So let's say again, baseball's got slumps. A good hitter for whatever reason is just not getting any hits. Like, sometimes there's a little luck involved and sometimes you just don't know why it's happening or there's little things. How do you help a hitter get out of a slump, man?
- [32:15]
Mike Deegan
If I could answer that in accurately, I would be Making a lot of money. There's a reason for the word process and routines. There's probably not a more routine, process driven sport than baseball. It's really the work that the professional hitters do between one and six that really matters the most. And then seven o', clock, you got to just go play. So the idea there is. I heard Christian McCaffrey just saying this like he's a football. Like you're built on one week. Like it's just one week. Then you forget the game plan, you forget everything else. So really just routines, processes, reminding them what makes them special and what makes them great. I think that's something we can get away from sometimes. And then also it's just understanding this is a part of it and you're not immune to it. But I wish I had a great answer other than that's why routines and process is so important.
- [33:03]
Ryan Hawk
One of the things that we talk about with the people we work with is this idea of strong voice, weak voice. And you've just hinted at it with that. And so we share these videos of people using their weak voice. And there's some funny ones out there that are fun TV shows of people just conjuring up all of these stories they're telling themselves that aren't even true. That's their weak voice. And then there's this amazing clip. And I could share it with people, but it's, I don't know, 15 seconds. It's Aaron Donald. Maybe you've seen this Aaron Donald, I believe it was when they were playing in the Super Bowl. And it's pre game or right before the game's gonna start or even in between series, I'm not sure. But you hear him just go, all that work you did, come on a, come on a go. Be the best in the world. Come on like. And it's just this incredible self talk that he's saying. He's talking about his preparation, he's talking about how he's so ready to go, come on. To me, I feel like that works well beyond sports. When you're focused on your process, you focus on your preparation, you focus on why you're ready for this moment. And then you go out and you just dominate. And I think that's got to apply to your world too, is this idea of having good strong voice, positive self talk. Especially maybe when you're going through a slump or it's hard.
- [34:18]
Mike Deegan
This conversation had to happen. So our guys that'll listen to this, I'll share it out. And our players, we thought about Strong boys, weak boys. Quite a bit.
- [34:26]
Ryan Hawk
Do you really that exact phrase?
- [34:29]
Mike Deegan
Sue Inquist was the softball coach at ucla is where I first heard it.
- [34:33]
Ryan Hawk
Who?
- [34:33]
Mike Deegan
Sue Inquist is her. As her name. She retired, but that's where I first heard it was strong voice, weak voice. And we say it all the time, and I try to acknowledge that we all have weak voice. That's like, my spin on it. Like, it's like, we all do. And then the other thing I want to add, Ryan, because another example of it was Mookie Betts. I heard Mookie Betts, shortstop for the Dodgers, he was talking about it in the press box one time on an interview, and I'll send it to you. But he said, I just had to give myself a lot of grace. Like, after a mistake, I'm telling myself, like, you're okay, Mookie. You're okay. Like, anyways, why I'm sharing this is like, this is a World Series shortstop. You know what I mean? Like, you think they're the alpha. The alpha. And he is going through it. He has to give himself, like, some self passion in these big moments because another ground ball's coming your way. But you got to talk yourself through this. So anyways, it's a pretty vulnerable take by him.
- [35:21]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah, I feel like I remember seeing that video around the World Series this year.
- [35:25]
Mike Deegan
And he struggled this World Series, by the way. He struggled, but then he finishes out with a double play. It was not easy for him. I don't know Mookie Betts at all, but I can just tell you from what just observing it was not easy for him, but he still showed up and made big plays when he had to.
- [35:38]
Ryan Hawk
I'm curious of how you handle this. So I still have that kind of before the save, before a big keynote. This is recent because it just had a couple of these. I think I'm only nervous if I'm not prepared, but I still have that kind of anticipatory feeling, like I did before a game as they're getting ready to introduce me to go up especially for. It doesn't really matter, the crowd size, big, small, anything in between. But one of the things I like to say, my strong voice is I think confidence is built through evidence, like creating evidence for yourself that you've done tough things in your past and you can draw from those experiences when maybe you're a little nervous or scared. So one of the things I like to say right as they're introducing me is, man, what an opportunity to create some evidence. I'm Going to go create some evidence today. It makes me feel good. Like, it makes me feel like, let's.
- [36:29]
Mike Deegan
I'm.
- [36:29]
Ryan Hawk
I'm like juiced up. I'm bringing good enthusiasm, good energy. When I say, like, what an opportunity to create some evidence today. So, like these little things we all create, we all need this stuff. I don't know, I'd be curious, like, how you think about it and what you do both for yourself as well as for the guys that you lead.
- [36:46]
Mike Deegan
Well, you know, I appreciate that because I, I think one of the most unspoken things about coaching is it is a bit of a performance. And I don't mean that, that you need to be anything by yourself, but you have to get yourself in the right frame of mind. And I went to. I always laugh about this, but I went to an Anthony Robbins event in 2015 and it really changed my life. Like, it was. You could take that whatever way you want.
- [37:06]
Ryan Hawk
But a lot I liked, I like Tony. I had him on the show. Hey, anyone who gets that big is gonna have haters. And I understand why, but I'm with you, man. I probably said some things, but there's probably envy in those statements, you know?
- [37:18]
Mike Deegan
Yeah, it's like. But he would talk about making a move and like giving yourself like a bit of a mantra. And before I speak, you know, I'll do the same thing. I'll, you know, make a move. I'll. I'll give myself a strong thought and then go perform. But with a coach, how you show up is going to be really, really important. And I saw was Texas A and M's coach, football coach this year, did you say? He said you have to be the opposite of what the moment requires.
- [37:40]
Ryan Hawk
Like, so like Elko, is that a saying?
- [37:43]
Mike Deegan
Yeah, yeah. That's not the right way he said it, but it's. It's basically like while everyone's excited, you need to be the calm. And then when, when the proverbial is hitting the fan, you got to be the one with optimism, you know? So I don't think you get in those spaces. Those are earned evidence based things to be able to do that and they don't just happen. Like, you have to have some intentionality in that. So I think getting yourself in the right mental frame to handle high performance is required of a coach and a leader.
- [38:10]
Ryan Hawk
As a quarterback, you have to be super poised and calm and have moxie. You live in a chaotic world. You have to stand in a pocket where there are guys trying to kill you, and you have to be able to look, not see them, by the way, feel them, know they're there, but then be able to make the shot down the field. You can't look at them. If you look at them or you think about them, you won't be able to make an accurate throw. So your world is always chaotic, like every single play, I guess, unless you're handing the ball off. But other than that, it's a very chaotic world. And so it helps you be very trained to be poised and calm in chaos. And I think that's, that's why you see a lot of quarterbacks go on to do amazing things, whether they're coaches or they do other things in the world. It's got to be similar in your world where baseball's a little bit more on the outside. It appears laid back, but you're managing 25 plus personalities at all times and you can't lose your mind ever. Right. You have to be the calm voice who can help them to lift them up, to pick them up, to celebrate them. Right. How do you view trying to be that calming presence for your people?
- [39:23]
Mike Deegan
I love your quarterback analogy. Every time I go to a game, I go, how does anyone ever complete a pass? You're sitting up high, you just see like the, the wave of humanity coming and nobody's open. And then you have to just, yeah, yes, it's. But, but I think that same thing. And like, you know, I'll be a little redundant, but I do think it takes some, some preparation in advance to remind yourself to be in that space. I think early on in my career, we struggled in bigger games and I don't believe this is just like a head coaching thing. By the way, the more, you know, someone had mentioned, you know, New England's record this year and, you know, Braves is the one that, you know, you can kind of look to. But a lot goes into winning besides just the coach, right? Like a lot goes into it. I had to do some reflection and say, why weren't we playing our best in some of these higher leverage games? And there's a lot of answers to that, by the way. A lot of things from how we train our talent wasn't quite probably at the level that we were trying to play against, but I had to look in the mirror and say, what am I doing? Am I showing up different? I think, you know, I wanted it so bad too, for other people and myself. Ego was involved that I don't think I was probably showing up my best in those big games. But it takes some reps. It takes Creating evidence to know that you can go through it. But I also just remind myself in baseball, you know, you don't play baseball at 130. Heartbeat. It's more. Can you get that darn thing down? And anything I do to increase it myself, I'm going against what it takes to be a successful player.
- [40:42]
Ryan Hawk
I got to take batting practice with my brother at a Milwaukee brewers game. This is back years ago. And they just put us in a group. I don't know. This is how the pros, they just do, like, groups. Greg Maddox's brother Mike was the pitcher, and I think Tony Gwynn's son was one of the guys in our group. And another big, tall outfielder. God, I forget his name was in our group. But one of the things I had said to the guy, you know, they gave us the uniform and everything, right? One of the things I had said to the guy was, you guys seem so chill pregame. Football is nuts. You know, it's crazy. And he goes, hey, man, you got 162 of these things. He's like, you can't be crazy. I go, yeah, that's a good point. That's a really good point. Of. Of just the fact that you got to understand how to manage your energy when you got to perform all the time.
- [41:34]
Mike Deegan
Without a doubt. It's one of my favorite lines. Especially if you have friends in professional baseball, you. You can't, like, text them after every game and say, good job. Because I know someone who was like, hey, man, there's 162 of these. Like, please stop. Like, you know, it's going to be a long summer. But the other thing I love about baseball, people can think it's boring, but what you're seeing is you're seeing people try to stay calm for three hours. Because, I don't know, like, throwing the ball across, like, simple. Was that like, throwing the ball across the infield, if you're tense and tight is not good, Right? So you're watching that 18 seconds in between the pitches of them, just trying to, like, get away from the pressure of everything. So you see him spit, you see him kick dirt. Those are all, like, learned behaviors to try to get themselves down, Right? So in football, yeah, you gotta. You gotta be prepared to, like, throw your body into somebody, and it takes an insane intensity. But in baseball, it's like just the opposite. Like, you're trying to, like, how can I stay cool in this moment?
- [42:26]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah. I'm wondering, how do you think that would help somebody who doesn't play baseball or doesn't play sports even. They're in the business world. And this kind of idea of trying to stay calm and alert and ready and present but not go overboard, is that more of like, hey, you got to have a process. What do you think for someone who doesn't play sports?
- [42:48]
Mike Deegan
Yeah, process routines. And I said it's just like, basic stoicism. Right. Like, baseball is like the ultimate controlling what you can control and releasing what you can't. Right? So, yeah, I don't know if this next ball's coming to me, but what do I do know? I can control my breathing. I can control my first pitch prep step, you know, So I would tell anyone who's listening, it's more like, what can you control? And I would challenge you to think, does that intensity or that emotion, does it actually lead to results or not? Baseball coaches do it too. Like, if I'm more intense, if I give high fives more, I don't know. Like, is that actually driving results? If it's helping you be the best version of yourself, go ahead and do it. But I don't know. I think sometimes that overstimulation, that over emotion is probably just put a lot of anxiety on your people, you know, in the salesforce or whatever. So, yeah, just regulate, stay calm, and execute.
- [43:34]
Ryan Hawk
Do you go out and have conversations with your pitcher when they're struggling, or is that the pitching coach and then you only come out to take them out of the game?
- [43:41]
Mike Deegan
Yeah, it's usually our pitching coach. I'll go out every now and then. I'll go out a lot of times if it's maybe a situation where I think we need some calming, you know?
- [43:48]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah, I was gonna say, what. So what is this? Usually the whole infield comes out, comes in. Now. It used to be just the, like, manager and the pitcher, but now it's the whole infield. What does it sound like in one of those huddles?
- [43:57]
Mike Deegan
I think a good analogy is like a cornerman in boxing. My dad used to always say, mostly good coach, watch a cornerman in boxing, because some people you got to smack, you know, you got to get him going. Some people got to say, come on, champ, you're the best. You're the best. You're the best. So I think when you're walking out there, you're trying to think, what does the team need from me right now? What message if I'm a mirror? Like, what do they need to see? Do they need to see calm? They need to see reassurance? Are we playing a little Timid and scared to. Maybe you're trying to jolt them a little bit with some energy and some choice words, like, I'm not saying I'm immune, I'm not immune to that too. But. But once again, there's an intentionality to it. And I think when I first started doing it, you just got there, you're ticked off. You're going to go, you know, whatever. But now you're like, okay, what does this pitcher need? What does this group need? How can I best serve them? And then like a good corner man, then you point them in the right direction of what's next, right? So we're going to go ahead, we're going to get ahead of this hitter right here. Feel the ground balls coming. So you're trying to speak some stuff into existence, even if you're making stuff up. But. But yeah, you acknowledge it and then you also try to point them in a direction for improvement.
- [44:55]
Ryan Hawk
Maybe this is top of mind. We had a game yesterday, a very close, tough loss, which again, I think is great for kids to go through because that's life. But anyway, you know, we give up a big play and people are kind of, you know, kids are losing a little bit. It's like, listen, that play is over. We have control of this play. That's right, this play. We do everything we can to do each of our jobs as a team, individual and as a team to stop them on this two point conversion, right? And I think just like being very specific of that play is over and we'll learn from that play later. Not right now though, because we're in the moment now. Our focus is on right now, this play. That's within our control. And I think that lesson could apply throughout life. That stuff's over. We will take time to try to learn from whatever happened. But for now, we have this right in front of us. Let's give maximum focus and effort to this thing, right? And I think that's the difference probably between average to good teams to great teams, the great ones. Again, in life and in sports, they are good at that, right? They can respond. Like Mookie Bets you're talking about, right? He wasn't playing well, but he responded well to it and that ultimately helped his team win. It's how you choose to respond to the tough moments. It's really thinking about those specific times in your life and specific times with your team.
- [46:21]
Mike Deegan
I think that's the greatest gift that we can give people through sports. Yeah, life is just. It just throws haymakers at you all the Time, right? Yeah, it just does. And most of us experience adversity along the way. It's this unique ability to just kind of keep moving. Right. And. And also, like you said, you reflect, you try to get better, you give yourself some grace, you move on, you just kind of keep working through that process. As simple as it may sound to us, Ryan, I don't think many people can get there, you know, and I think that's where the sports background comes in, is that we have some reps with that.
- [46:52]
Ryan Hawk
Yes. That's why I love athletics, especially for kids. I know not everyone is athletic enough to make all the teams, but I still try to encourage people as much as possible because it's so hard, especially when the parents have done well and can provide and maybe they've done better than their parents. And so it's one way in life to create some legitimate adversity. I've said this a million times, but one of my daughters who plays a lot of volleyball just finished her senior season. You know, even when they win a match, you got to win three sets at least. But some of those sets they'd win, they would win 25 to 23. That means they had to respond to losing 23 times in the course of one set that they happen to win, and then maybe they lose a set and they got to respond to that, too. So I just think this idea, this ability to bounce back from losing, to bounce back from the adversity that we all are going to inevitably face, it's one of the few constants and certainties of life, is adversity is the difference between great and average or good.
- [47:58]
Mike Deegan
Trevor Moad, do you have that name at all? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love his line, and I have it written down. I've written down on my lineup card. Setbacks are temporary. I bounce back quickly.
- [48:07]
Ryan Hawk
Setbacks are temporary.
- [48:08]
Mike Deegan
I bounce back quickly.
- [48:10]
Ryan Hawk
I bounce back quickly.
- [48:11]
Mike Deegan
Yeah, yeah. Like, so.
- [48:12]
Ryan Hawk
I like that.
- [48:12]
Mike Deegan
It's just like you're some, you know, you're go create evidence. Like it's something very simple, but, like, I'm going to take a punch and I'll bounce back quickly. Like, I. I'll bounce back. I'll bounce back. I think those are just good reminders in life this happens. We're going to respond.
- [48:25]
Ryan Hawk
I am so pumped to see what you choose to do and the impact you make, man. I know the one thing's for certain is that we're going to keep talking. I'm glad at least you're close by, but I can't wait for the next dinner with you, man.
- [48:37]
Mike Deegan
I can't, I can't thank you enough. Right. It was, it was truly a pleasure to get to meet you and your network and and have this time too.
- [48:43]
Ryan Hawk
It's fun to see what happens when you get a group of high character, put a dent in the world type people together and just with everyone's genuine curiosity and excitement and smiles and head nods and God, we should do this more often, you know, like that's what life is all about, isn't it? Like building good relationship with great people. I think that's what life's all about, man. So you're definitely one of those dudes for me now and super grateful, man. Can't wait for the next one.
- [49:04]
Mike Deegan
Appreciate you, bro. Thanks Ryan.
- [49:10]
Ryan Hawk
It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you you are, send me a note, Ryan learningleader.com Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Mike Deegan. A few takeaways from my notes. Get comfortable in your own skin. When you are secure, you can celebrate others without envy. That's when mudita vicarious joy. A joy for others, right? That's when it becomes possible. Be genuinely happy when your teammate succeeds. It's so fun when you can get to that place and then know your North Star. Mike's is clear at Denison compete for national championships while providing an elite student athlete experience. What is yours? Everything you should do should align with it, including and most importantly who you choose to work with. And then I love Mike's mantra that he shared at the end. Setbacks are temporary. I bounce back quickly. Life is going to throw haymakers at you. Your job is to be the calming presence as a leader. Confidence that needs evidence. So how about we go create some the process and routine as he said, between one and six, right? One o' clock and six o'. Clock. That's leading up to the games. That's what shows up when the lights are brightest. And as leaders, we have to be prepared for those big moments to make a difference. Once again, I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader show with Mike Deegan. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader. And because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify and Apple podcasts and write a thoughtful review and certainly subscribe to the show. Rate it hopefully five stars by doing all of that you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so much. So much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.