The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk

Episode 672: Brad Stulberg – The Neuroscience of Curiosity, Process vs. Outcome Goals, The Power of Consistency, Playing Like The Beatles, Focusing on Your WHO, and The Way of Excellence
Date: January 26, 2026
Guests: Ryan Hawk (host), Brad Stulberg (author, performance coach)

Overview

In this dynamic, wide-ranging episode, Ryan Hawk reconnects with Brad Stulberg—bestselling author of Peak Performance, The Practice of Groundedness, and now The Way of Excellence. Together, they examine the science and personal philosophies underpinning true excellence, including the merits of process vs. outcome goals, the vital role of curiosity and consistency, the influence of environment, and why love and genuine care are foundational for real, sustainable achievement. Stulberg shares vivid stories and actionable frameworks, grounded in neuroscience and lived experience, for leaders who aspire to raise both their own standards and the standards of those around them.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Inspiration and the Pursuit of Excellence

(00:03–06:53)

• Brad’s Touchstones:
  Brad recounts how Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig acted as a turning point in both his personal life and his writing journey.

  "I read that book and decided... I don't need to party and smoke so much weed anymore... It helped me mature into the adult I am today."
  —Brad Stulberg [02:58]

• Definition of Quality:
  Pirsig’s concept of “quality”—not in the person, not in the thing, but in the interaction.

  "It's what happens when an actor in his or her act gets so intimate... they become hard to separate."
  —Brad Stulberg [03:32]

• Vulnerability & Caring:
  Deep care is inseparable from both risk and reward.

  "The things you care about are the things that break your heart, but also fill your life with texture and meaning... our best performances live on the other side of that deep caring."
  —Brad Stulberg [05:32]

2. The Company You Keep—Surrounding Yourself with Excellence

(06:53–15:56)

• Intentional Community:
  Your environment is not neutral. The standards and energy of those around you influence your own effort and results, often more than internal motivation.

• Cultural Distortions of Excellence:
  Two extremes often dominate: "performative greatness" (all show, no substance) and "too cool to care" (fear-based disengagement). Genuine excellence is a quiet, deeply-felt ‘middle.’

  "Most people are lit up by excellence... Even if I'm never going to play in the NBA... I want to master the art of gardening."
  —Brad Stulberg [09:45]

• Science of Social Influence:

  • Air Force Study: Teams’ performance drops to the level of their least motivated member.

    "Squadrons... sank to the level of the lowest performer. Not even the most talented, but the least motivated and energetic."
    —Brad Stulberg [12:40]

  • Corporate Study: Your own performance rises 15% if you’re near a high performer, falls 30% if near a low performer.

    "A lowering tide lowers all boats more than a rising tide lifts all boats."
    —Brad Stulberg [15:12]

3. The Power of Deliberate Connection—Gregg Popovich’s Spurs Team Dinners

(15:56–23:24)

• Intentional Rituals Build Trust:
  Popovich’s legendary team dinners were meticulously designed moments away from the “always-on” NBA grind.

  "He would plan these elaborate menus... and there would be no shot clock... Players could step back... and connect as person to person."
  —Brad Stulberg [16:38]

• Leadership = Care + Curiosity:
  Deep attention, curiosity, and love—shown off the court—create the psychological safety required for hard, honest work on the court.

  "Curiosity is one of the ultimate acts of love."
  —Ryan Hawk [20:24]

• Legacy of Values:
  Through Steve Kerr, Popovich’s legacy of “intensity and joy” continues—core values that define both culture and outcomes.

  "That’s excellence. That’s legacy."
  —Brad Stulberg [21:41]

4. Milestones, Celebration, and the Process vs. Outcome Debate

(23:24–38:56)

• External Validation & The Joy of Contribution:
  Success feels different—and is most meaningful—when recognized by those we respect (e.g., Stulberg’s story of getting a book blurb from Steve Kerr).

• Celebrating Achievement:
  Both Ryan and Brad admit struggling to savor milestones, often moving directly to the next challenge.

  "What can happen is the act of celebrating... can shift your mindset... to, 'I am validated, now I'm worthwhile.'"
  —Brad Stulberg [28:23]

  • Rituals as Anchors: Without celebration, "life loses gravity."
    —Brad Stulberg [28:23]

• Setting and Missing Goals:

  • We need both ambitious outcome goals (“top of the mountain”) and rich process goals (“side of the mountain”).

    "Without the peak, there’s no mountain. But all the life is on the side of the mountain."
    —Brad Stulberg [31:57–33:09]

  • Missing goals isn’t failure; it’s growth and opportunity for recalibration.

    "You grieve the defeat. It’s hard... And then eventually you get back to work."
    —Brad Stulberg [36:37]

5. Consistency, Process, and the Power of Showing Up

(38:56–48:54)

• Writing (and Living) Like an Athlete:
  Stulberg describes a methodical, “put in the reps” approach—applicable to writing, athletics, and any craft.

  "I write more like an athlete than an artist... I put in the reps. I show up every day. Some days are magic... but most days are just chipping away."
  —Brad Stulberg [39:09]

• Discipline vs. Motivation:
  Don’t wait for inspiration or a readiness score; start regardless of how you feel, and consistency will breed momentum.

  "We need to get started to give ourselves a chance at feeling motivated."
  —Brad Stulberg [41:24]

• On Tracking Performance:
  Tools and trackers have their place (notably for beginners or course correction), but can make us fragile or neurotic if we depend on them to dictate readiness.

  "Human performance is so much more complex than an algorithm."
  —Brad Stulberg [44:57]

6. The Brave New World Mindset: Curiosity Over Fear

(48:54–55:35)

• Tackling the Unknown:
  Facing new challenges in the gym, work, or life, Brad uses “Brave New World” as a mantra to foster curiosity, not fear.

  "Brave New World. I have no idea what’s going to happen, but... let’s find out."
  —Brad Stulberg [49:05]

• Neuroscience of Curiosity:
  Activation of the curiosity circuit in the brain switches off fear and rage circuits.

  "You cannot simultaneously be raging and curious at once... By being curious, we turn off the fear deep in our brains."
  —Brad Stulberg [53:08]

• Practice in Small Stakes:
  Curiosity, like a muscle, strengthens with use—try it in manageable contexts before using it for major challenges.

7. The True Meaning of Competition and the Power of Love

(55:35–62:34)

• Competition = Rising Together:
  Historically, ‘compete’ means “to strive together”—not to crush the enemy alone.

  "Compete means to put yourself in the arena with formidable opponents and go after each other... and you get so much better."
  —Brad Stulberg [56:02]

• Sports Stories:

  • Caitlin Clark & Iowa: After a championship loss, the team’s strongest memory is not the defeat, but the camaraderie and love they felt together that night.

    "They don’t remember the loss—they remember the night after the loss, the commiserating, the kind of slap-happiness... and how they’ll never forget that."
    —Brad Stulberg [58:13]

  • Detroit Lions Playoff Win: Postgame speeches referenced “love” seven times in two minutes.

    "No one is more conventionally masculine... and they’re talking about how much they love each other... You only live once. That’s the point."
    —Brad Stulberg [60:50–62:34]

8. On Intensity, Joy, and Taking the Work Seriously

(62:34–68:53)

• Intensity and Joy Can Co-Exist:

  "A good life is being able to push that boulder up the hill with a smile on your face... Can Sisyphus be happy?"
  —Brad Stulberg [63:20]

• Don’t Take Yourself So Seriously:
  Take the work with utmost seriousness and passion, but maintain levity in your relationships and self-image. Bust each other’s chops, laugh, and enjoy the ride.

  "What’s the point of doing all this hard stuff and not trying to make jokes, laugh, and have fun? Not take yourself too seriously while taking the work very seriously?"
  —Ryan Hawk [66:04]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

"Most people are lit up by excellence and like, 'Oh, you're talking about the real thing. I want that in my life.'"
—Brad Stulberg [09:45]

"A lowering tide lowers all boats more than a rising tide lifts all boats."
—Brad Stulberg [15:12]

"Curiosity is one of the ultimate acts of love."
—Ryan Hawk [20:24]

"Without rituals and milestones and without these moments of celebration, life loses gravity."
—Brad Stulberg [28:23]

"Without the peak, there’s no mountain. But all the life is on the side of the mountain."
—Brad Stulberg [33:09]

"We need to get started to give ourselves a chance at feeling motivated or feeling good."
—Brad Stulberg [41:24]

"Brave new world. I have no idea what’s going to happen, but...let’s find out."
—Brad Stulberg [49:05]

"Compete means to put yourself in the arena with formidable opponents and go after each other. And in the process...you get so much better."
—Brad Stulberg [56:02]

"The mark of a good life is, can Sisyphus be happy? Can Sisyphus enjoy the struggle?"
—Brad Stulberg [63:20]

Timestamps and Key Segments

• 00:03–02:58: Ryan introduces Brad and themes—personal inspiration, quality, care.
• 06:53–09:45: On being intentional with people in your circle.
• 12:10–15:56: Landmark studies—the immense effect of your environment.
• 15:56–23:24: Greg Popovich’s coaching rituals and the magic of team dinners.
• 23:24–33:09: The tension between outcome and process goals; importance of meaningful milestones.
• 38:56–48:54: Process, discipline, consistency, and the writing/athlete analogy.
• 48:54–55:35: “Brave New World”—curiosity in practice and science.
• 55:35–62:34: Redefining competition as rising together; sports stories about love and connection.
• 62:34–68:53: How intensity and joy co-exist; why seriousness ≠ lack of joy.

Takeaways for Learning Leaders

• Excellence is a way of being, not a performance for others.
• Quality emerges in the relationship between the doer and the deed.
• Our surroundings dramatically affect our standards and results—choose wisely.
• True belonging and “love” are at the heart of the highest-achieving teams.
• Curiosity and attention are antidotes to fear and distractions—and can be trained.
• Consistent process, not just outcomes, builds excellence and satisfaction.
• Celebrate milestones—ritual anchors meaning and grounds the journey.
• Motivation follows action. Start, then adjust, instead of waiting to feel “ready.”
• Leadership is equal parts intensity and joy; don’t neglect either.

For further exploration:

• The Way of Excellence by Brad Stulberg
• Referenced works: Robert Pirsig, Baeyoung Shulhan, Wright Thompson, and Gregg Popovich’s legacy.

To connect with Ryan Hawk or continue the conversation, visit:
learningleader.com