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673: Daniel Coyle - Opening Yellow Doors, Mastering Your Craft, World-Class Storytelling Techniques, Great Questions to Ask, Building Your Community, The Power of Curiosity, and How to Flourish in Life - The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk | Wave AI Podcast Notes

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673: Daniel Coyle - Opening Yellow Doors, Mastering Your Craft, World-Class Storytelling Techniques, Great Questions to Ask, Building Your Community, The Power of Curiosity, and How to Flourish in Life

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk

Mon Feb 02 2026

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk

Episode 673: Daniel Coyle – Opening Yellow Doors, Mastering Your Craft, World-Class Storytelling, the Power of Community, and Flourishing in Life
Date: February 2, 2026
Guest: Daniel Coyle (Author: The Talent Code, The Culture Code, Flourish)
Host: Ryan Hawk

Overview

This episode dives deep into Daniel Coyle’s lifelong study of high-performing teams and flourishing communities, exploring his latest work Flourish. The conversation focuses on mastering the craft of writing and storytelling, the concept of “yellow doors” as opportunities for growth, the anatomy of great teams, the importance of curiosity, community-building, and actionable ways to flourish both individually and collectively. Dan draws on powerful real-world examples, from personal anecdotes to the incredible survival of Chilean miners and lessons gleaned from elite organizations like the Cleveland Guardians and Zingerman’s Deli.

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Mastering the Craft of Writing and Storytelling

Continuous Learning and Craft:
- Dan emphasizes that mastery is a journey, not a destination. Simplicity in writing, achieved through years of refining your craft, is central.
  - Quote: “In the journey of craft, it always involves getting simpler. And is there an end to that? I know I could definitely be simpler because simple is not easy.” (Dan Coyle, 04:00)
- Dan’s admiration for writer George Saunders as someone who embodies simplicity and clarity in writing. (02:49–05:13)
Parenting & Storytelling as a Family Craft:
- Dan reflects on coaching his daughter in writing and how their learning became a two-way street—both teaching and learning from one another.
  - Quote: “It was much more of a rich two-way dialogue that I think ended up helping both of us a little bit.” (Dan Coyle, 08:41)
- On “Power of the Pen,” a competition turning writing into a varsity sport for students. (07:11–08:41)

2. The Function and Flourishing of Community

The Myth of Individual Achievement:
- Dan reflects on how even the most “individual” successes are always underpinned by a network of support—be it family or community.
  - Quote: “When you scratch one of those individual stories, what is revealed as a community of people.” (Dan Coyle, 10:29)
- He dedicates his work to his wife Jenny, describing her as the bedrock of his ecosystem. (10:04–11:50)

3. The “Yellow Doors” Metaphor: Seizing Unexpected Opportunities

Origin and Explanation:
- From psychologist Lisa Miller, “yellow doors” refer to ambiguous, often unnoticed opportunities—neither clearly good (green) nor bad (red)—that lie at the edge of your attention.
  - Quote: “That’s where life actually happens…when you think of your life as complicated, you think, oh, what’s the next good move? … Complexity is like, wait a minute. There’s something opening up. Let me check that out.” (Dan Coyle, 12:48–16:58)
- “Living into the question” (Rilke): Instead of seeking the right answer, flourishing is about continually probing and experiencing.
Complicated vs. Complex Problems:
- Complicated: Step-by-step (like building a car).
- Complex: Ever-shifting, requires probing (like raising a teenager). (13:50–16:58)

4. The Power of Curiosity

Curiosity in Elite Teams:
- Top-performing organizations (like the Cleveland Guardians) are defined by relentless curiosity and dialogue—not by leaders with all the answers.
  - Quote: “Answers stop conversations… Questions bring people together.” (Dan Coyle, 18:44)
- Dan’s experience of being “peppered” with questions by elite leaders, flipping the typical guru/learner dynamic.
Questions as Leadership Tools:
- Great leaders “lob in a question then close their mouth.” Good questions unlock agency, energy, and creativity in teams.
  - Sample Questions:
    - “What’s energizing you right now?” (Dan Coyle, 23:59)
    - “What do you want to do more of?”
    - “What do you want to do differently?”
    - “Describe five years from now, things go great. What’s an average Tuesday?”
  - These shift attention from the narrow to the possible.

5. Anatomy of Great Teams: The DNA

Three Core Ingredients:
- Deep belonging (“love your neighbor”)
- Sacrifice for the group, especially by peer leaders (ex: football example of teamwork and adversity)
- Curiosity as a sustaining force against complacency
  - “Teams that do not get gassed up on their own stuff… get curious about that next mountain and they get curious about each other.” (Dan Coyle, 28:17)
- Small, meaningful rituals (ex: OKC Thunder’s tribute to traded players)

6. Extreme Example: The Chilean Miners’ Survival

Story:
- 33 men trapped 2,000 feet underground for 52 days (2010). Initial chaos but quickly turned to community.
- The leader removes symbols of hierarchy—“there are no bosses; we are all one”—sparking self-organization, ritual, and collective meaning-making.
- Key insight: Survival was driven by pausing to create shared meaning and presence, not by executing a strategy from above.
  - Quote: “What let them do that was not information. It wasn’t analysis. It was letting go. It was having this moment of meaning, of making meaning and creating presence.” (Dan Coyle, 33:09)
Application:
- The lesson for all—flourishing is rooted in community, not just the achievement or information.

7. Practical Lessons for Everyday Leaders

You Flourish Through Others:
- The myth of rugged individual flourishing is wrong; genuine fulfillment is relational.
  - “Self improvement…actually that’s not as powerful as shared improvement.” (Dan Coyle, 36:04)
- “Who’s in my garden?” Think of career building as growing a garden, not playing a game. Nurture your community intentionally.
Service as Cure for Burnout:
- When feeling depleted, ask “Who can I help right now?” (ex: advice from baseball manager Craig Counsell, 38:13)

8. The Importance of Showing Up and Building Real-World Community

Saying Yes to Yellow Doors:
- Dan’s story of reluctantly joining a rock climbing community, resulting in unexpected meaningful relationships.
  - Quote: “That yellow door…is really what has changed for you… now, five, six years later, we’re doing trips and playing music and going skiing and it’s this whole new group.” (Dan Coyle, 39:17–40:05)
Technology’s Double-Edged Sword:
- Devices create the illusion of connection, but true thriving is rooted in in-person, real-world relationships and community.
  - “Community is how we do that…some of these places I visited, they were inspiring because they could kind of flip the switch” (Dan Coyle, 45:05–46:49)

9. Research Methodology: Immersion and Curiosity

How Dan Chooses Topics:
- He seeks groups with unique outlier results, driven by curiosity and a willingness to “probe” into complex realities.
  - Quote: “As I got older and made mistakes, I end up going to places that are most mysterious. It’s the mystery that draws me.” (Dan Coyle, 47:30)
- Embedding himself in elite cultures (e.g., Russian tennis, the Cleveland Guardians, the Spurs) to go beyond superficial understanding.

10. Final Thought – “The Champagne Question” & What Really Matters

Looking Forward:
- If you’re celebrating a year from now, what’s happened? For Dan, it’s experiencing joy and connection, merging new and old communities, especially family.
  - Quote: “New relationships, but also connected to old, that to me, is very super appealing.” (Dan Coyle, 52:14)
What Are You Optimizing For?
- Community, profound experiences, relationships—these trump efficiency and scale.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

“In the journey of craft, it always involves getting simpler. Period. Right. And is there an end to that? I know that I could definitely be simpler because simple is not easy.” (Dan Coyle, 04:00)
“Answers stop conversations… Questions bring people together.” (Dan Coyle, 18:44)
“If you don’t have the ability to stop and create relationships and community, all that stuff is meaningless because it’s meaningless.” (Dan Coyle, 33:09)
“Self improvement…actually that’s not as powerful as shared improvement.” (Dan Coyle, 36:04)
“When I’m feeling down, I go find somebody I can help.” (Craig Counsell, as recounted by Dan Coyle, 38:13)
“Optimizing is a good word…you have to leave some space. It’s imperfect. It’s not efficient. But that’s where the value is.” (Dan Coyle, 44:47)

Suggested Timestamps for Key Segments

Mastering Craft & Storytelling: 02:34–09:39
Flourishing Through Community: 10:00–12:20
Yellow Doors & Complexity: 12:20–17:29
Curiosity in Elite Teams: 17:29–23:51
DNA of Great Teams: 26:23–30:48
Chilean Miners Story: 30:55–35:13
Lessons for Everyday Leaders: 35:13–39:00
Rock Climbing & Yellow Doors: 39:00–41:05
Technology vs. True Community: 41:05–46:49
Research Approach: 46:49–51:17
The Champagne Question / Conclusion: 51:47–54:45

Closing Thoughts

At its heart, the episode is a passionate invitation to choose connection over isolation, curiosity over answers, and complexity over oversimplification. Flourishing—whether for individuals, families, or world-class teams—is not a solo game but a deeply communal, ever-evolving journey through the “yellow doors” that beckon from the corners of our lives. The biggest takeaway: community and curiosity are the true foundation of lasting success and meaning.

“Community is how we do that… We’re prewired for community. As dystopian as the world can feel, it’s not predetermined—there really is a possibility for a community revival.”
(Dan Coyle, 46:49)

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Transcript

Ryan Hawk (0:03)

Welcome to the Learning Leader show. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Go to learningleader.com for show notes of this and all podcast episodes. Go to learningleader.com now on to the night's featured leader. One of my favorites, Dan Coyle, New York Times best selling author who spent the last two decades studying what makes great teams great. He wrote the Talent Code, the Culture Code and now Flourish. These are books that have shaped how millions of people think about skill development, team culture and meaningful connection. He works with the Cleveland Guardians as a special advisor on culture and performance. We got together in Cleveland to record this one in person. So glad I got to spend half.

Corey (0:52)

A day with Dan.

Ryan Hawk (0:53)

A few things. We discussed the craft of writing and storytelling, including the advice Dan gives to his 24 year old daughter who wants to be a writer.

Corey (1:04)

Love it.

Ryan Hawk (1:04)

And then the Chilean miners story. You've heard me talk a little bit about this with Mike Deegan. 33 men trapped underground for 52 days who should not have survived but did and what that reveals about human resilience and group flourishing. And then I love this concept called Yellow Doors. They are about spotting opportunities to create meaningful connections and exploring new paths. Including a new story that Dan tells about rock climbing. I think you'll find it useful. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Dan Coyle. This episode is brought to you by my friends at Insight Global. Insight Global is a staffing and professional services company dedicated to providing amazing people to to their clients and taking great care of them. If you need to hire one person, hire a team of people or transform your business through talent or technical services. Insight Global can get you the people you need and help you develop them to reach their full potential. Developing your people can be tough, but having productive employees can be magic. Visit insightglobal.com learningleader that's insight global.com to learn more.

Corey (2:34)

Who are you reading lately that like you're loving?

Dan Coyle (2:38)

You know this guy and it's more in the writing area but George Saunders bump into his stuff at all?

Corey (2:45)

I've heard that, yeah. What's something he's written that you really like?

Dan Coyle (2:49)

Dan Coyle (12:48)

Most of us go through life looking for the green doors that are open and the red doors that are closed. Like, that's clearly a path forward for me. That's clearly a path I should not go. And there's a lot of those in life. Right. But the idea of yellow doors is that there's another kind of door, right, that's kind of out of the corner of your eye. It might be something that makes you uncomfortable. It might be something that's brand new, but that's where life actually happens. One of the reasons that that's true is that, you know, we tend to think and perceive things in straight lines. We tend to sort of go from A to B to C to D and sort of think of life as this big. I don't know, like a big game, right? A big. A big game that has rules. And you should analyze, follow the rules, make good decisions. But in fact, that's like a misperception. I think I've come to believe that that is absolutely wrong. Life is actually not a game. Games are machines. Life is. There are elements of life that are like a game. Parts of it are. But deep, deep down, it ain't a game. It Ain't it is something. It is. It is a living thing. It's complex. And complex things don't have straight lines. They've got, like, little doorways and pathways, and it's like this jungle trail that keeps shifting and moving and you're moving along with it. There's some weird science connected to this that is basically says it's about complexity, right? All of life's problems. There are two kinds of problems in life. Some are complicated and some are complex. And we typically use those two words, like, interchangeably. Right? They're not like, complex is really different than complicated. And I found this to be really, really useful. Complicated things come together the same way every time. A goes to B goes to C. There's cause and effect. It's unchangeable. Like, I could. If I told you to build a Ford Mustang and gave you all the information and all the materials and a set of instructions that was accurate and you followed those instructions, you would have a Ford Mustang every time, right? That's complicated. You have to analyze. It takes expertise, but it's complicated. Complex are problems where when you involve yourself in them, they change. So the difference is, is this more like building a Ford Mustang or is this more like raising a teenager? There's no script I can give you, as we know. There is no set of instructions. There's no A to B to C to D. It ain't complicated. It's freaking complex. Which means everything I do changes the relationship, right? Complex things live in relationship. And so that's where the yellow door idea really resonates for me. Because it's like, when you think of your life as complicated, you think, oh, what's the next good move? I just need to make one good move. It's straight lines. I'll be able to figure it out. I need to analyze it more. I need to think about it more. Complexity is like, wait a minute. There's like something opening up over here. Let me check that out. Like, that seems interesting. Let me probe. And to go back to grounded in the science, if you've got a complicated problem, you need to analyze. Find out where are you in that list of instructions? Like, get the next best instruction. Find the expert, Follow. Follow the guide. But if you're in a complex problem, information is not helpful. If you're in a complex problem, you gotta probe. Like, you gotta test out. Take a step into that yellow door and be like, huh, that sucked. I'm going to turn around. Or, whoa, that's kind of cool. I'm going to keep Going and see what the next step is. And so what I see in highly kind of thriving people, especially in people that I studied for this book, was this willingness to kind of let go of analysis, kind of let go of information and let their experience guide them. Say, let's try that. It seems kind of stupid. I can make all kinds of logical reasons why it won't work, but I'm going to let go of logic for just a second, and I'm going to actually probe and see what happens. I'm going to actually live it, and then I'll get some information by doing that, right? So they're living their way forward into these questions, into these yellow doors. Like you're living into the question. That's the way. There was a poet a long time ago, Rilke, the poet. Somebody asked him. He got older. They asked him. It was a young letters to a young poet. So somebody wrote him, how do I live my life? And he wrote back, and Rilke said, live the question. That's how you should live your life. Live into the question. And that's what I kept seeing in these flourishing groups that I've been spending the last five years visiting. Like, they're not about the answers. And we live in this day, in this age where answers are as cheap as tap water, right? Like, AI will give you the answers. Sure, we have the answers, but do we have the questions? And are we noticing the questions that are just in the corner of our eye? And are we able to live into those questions in ways that help us to grow?

Dan Coyle (19:42)

They were the ones with the answers. It becomes tempting to become that and all the other signals you get in the organization reinforce that. So it takes a really special person, I think, to realize, and a really different model for what a business is, for what a high performance organization is. You know, we typically think of them as kind of machines. You know, Indiana football last night looked like a freaking machine. Right. They win the national championship. We think of the Seals as a machine. We think of Pixar as a machine. But actually, when you get close to those organizations, they're not functioning like machines. Machines are controlled from the outside and they're very predictable and they produce a predictable result. That's why they're machines. Right. But what we're having here is like more of an enlivening, an animating of energy that's hidden those questions. Why are they powerful? Because they bring out people's energy and curiosity. Why is curiosity so powerful? Because it creates these explorations and leaders who are good at lobbing that question in and then closing their mouth. It's the most powerful skill. Because it's not a machine. Because these organizations are actually more like these energy channels that are exploring stuff. They're more like rivers. It's like a river. How do you make a river flow well, you give it a horizon to flow toward. Like, where are we going? You set up some riverbanks is where we're not going to go. We're not going to go to either side of this. But inside this space, I want to create energy and agency. And questions do that. And it's a super interesting skill too, because, you know, in the book I write a little bit about Peter Block, who's like one of the best ever at answering, at asking these. These questions and exploring these questions. And the questions aren't that work in these situations, whether it's at the Guardians or somewhere else. They're not questions that are kind of fact based. They're more like deep questions, like what makes a great player? What happens in championship locker rooms. There are questions that are impossible to simply answer. So what they do is they kind of spark more exploration. And in that exploration, something bubbles up usually. And the funny thing about those conversations that I've had in the Guardians a million times is like, you'll be in a meeting, somebody will put in a question like, how do great hitters recognize pitches, whatever it might be? And this conversation will happen and some ideas will bubble up, and later on, no one will know where those ideas came from. It wasn't exactly you, it wasn't exactly me. We were building on ideas. You threw an idea and I built on it. Somebody else built on it. Somebody else built on it. And all of a sudden you walk out with not only energy, but agency and a fresh idea. And so it cracks me up, actually, to go. You still can go to some places and they're still in that old model of leadership where it's like, I'm the answer man. I'm the answer woman. I will speak first, I will speak last. I will not invite conversation. And my role is to deliver the truth. And I can see how that would have worked. Like that would have worked on Mad Men. That would have worked in the 50s, 60s and 70s when we didn't have so many answers around, where we didn't have the challenging, changing landscape that we're in. But now the landscape's freaking moving. And the idea that one guy can have all the answers is actually kind of insane. Yeah, I think that doesn't work. So how do we create those conversations?

Dan Coyle (28:18)

No, I think, I think he obviously sets the tone and everything, but when we. And it's part of the DNA, but it's not as big a part as people think. I think great team coaches can create the conditions for that team to emerge. But the thing with the great teams have sometimes pit themselves against the coach. You know, they can sometimes see the coach as we're going to come together against this guy. The US Olympic hockey team of 1980 would be an example of that. So I would put that on there and I would also put a shout out to this. Curiosity is at the very, very, very core of it because that keeps you going and it's really hard to consistently succeed. And I think the teams that I've seen do that are ones that do not get gassed up on their own stuff, do not drink their own Kool Aid, do not believe in their success, actually in a way, sort of in a. It's not skeptical exactly, but they're not buying into it in a, like, oh, now I'm at the top of the mountain, everything's fine. They get curious about that next mountain and they get curious about each other and they get curious about the situation and they're willing to let go of stuff that. That didn't work. OKC is really good at this. The basketball team, I mean, they, they are incredibly intentional about how they evolve and how they lead. And they were here last year and I had a. A coffee with. With their coach and their shooting coach, Chip England, who's brilliant, brilliant shooting coach Mark Dagino. And they told me something that was kind of cool that I hadn't appreciated. When someone gets traded in pro sports, it's like a death. Like, this is locker room. Everybody knows each other, trade deadlines coming, somebody got traded, and then their locker's empty. It's like a gravestone. And what the coach at OKC does is on the day after somebody gets traded, he spends a minute of practice expressing his appreciation for that person who's gone. It takes like 10 seconds, 30 seconds, whatever. But it. Like, what. How simple and human is that? How powerful is that? And it really. I think what I'm seeing in these places, it's the same thing that I see in these flourishing groups that I wrote about. The word is community. Like, the thing that makes people flourish is community. It's not a bunch of individuals that are individualing together. It's like, can they connect? Can they. I mean, the way that some people would say it would be like, love your neighbor. Are they loving their neighbor and supporting their neighbor? And that. That is. That's just magical when that does happen.

Dan Coyle (31:12)

Incredible. I mean. Yeah. If you had to trade places with anybody in the history of the world, these guys would not be in the top list. Like, they're a couple thousand feet below the surface. Happened in 2010. Most of us remember it, I think. You know, Chilean San Jose mine, caves in. There's, you know, 100 million tons of rock on top of them. They're in a room called a refugio. And there's probably no escape. They're probably thinking, this is it. And there's a little cabinet with some tuna fish, cookies, spoiled milk. Like, not much. Not much food. 33 people down there. And for the first couple hours, it went as bad as it could have gone. Like, people are eating the food. People are running around, scrambling, yelling at each other. And then they. They sort of tire out. They circle up, and it's funny. And, you know, we all know that they survived. We all know that they. They ended up kind of creating a little civilization down there. And the original thought when they came out was like, oh, they had great leaders. They had, like, these two guys that seem to be leaders. And those leaders had a plan, and they had a strategy, and they. They did it, and they were, like, steering the ship. And it turns out that wasn't the case. What happened was that they. They sort of circled up and they stopped, and they kind of paused. They just stopped and they said, look, we're in the shit. Like, this is it. We're not getting out of here. And then the boss stepped forward. His boss. Everyone was kind of afraid of he wore a white helmet. His name was Luis Urzua. And he took off his white helmet and he said, there are no bosses and no employees. There's no bosses and no employees. We're all one here. And then there's another pause. And somebody else pointed out that there were 33 of them, which is the same age Christ was when he died. And so they saw that as being. They're mostly Catholic, saw that as being as symbolic. And from those pauses, like they weren't actually trying to do anything. But what happened in those moments is their attention shifted from this terror and this task of survival to this larger connection that they had, this relationship they had with each other and with this moment. And they started to kind of self organize at that time. Like, just, let's build a little sleeping area, let's get the food sorted. Let's figure out how much lamp battery power we have. And they started this set of rituals. Rituals. And they almost like each meal they would get out a certain flake of tuna, and they would all share it and eat it at the same time. They built small games out of little reflectors, and they would play these games with their limited light. And it didn't like. It didn't. It wasn't easy. And there was an incredible amount of shared suffering down there, but it was shared. And when they finally got contact with the surface, one of the things that they did that kind of blew everybody away was they sung the Chilean national anthem together. So they're down there, no food, very little supplies, dark infection, it's super hot. And they end up kind of creating this little model civilization that functioned incredibly well for the situation that they were in. And what let them do that was not information. It wasn't analysis. It was letting go. It was having this moment of meaning, of making meaning and creating presence. I saw that pattern in all the places that I visited. They were able to create meaning because you can have all the information, you can have all the success, you can have all the productivity. But if you don't have the ability to, like, stop and create relationships and create community, all that stuff is. We say it's meaningless because it's meaningless. And community is how we do that. And so they were just a beautiful example of, like, all right, they don't have anything. How did they create community? Well, they did it by stopping and looking to something bigger than themselves. Stopping and looking. And that moment of stopping and looking is something that I saw in all the groups that I visited. They had the ability, in all the busyness of this world to be like, wait a minute, stop. What are we really about? What matters here? What is our community? Why are we here? What is bigger than us that we're connected to right now? And they grounded themselves in those moments over and over and over again. And that's what creates growth and that's what creates connection. That's what creates community.

Dan Coyle (36:04)

Yeah. I think the thing though, there's a lot of lessons to learn and one of them is getting smart. Smarts will only get you so far is kind of one big one. To really have this sense of fulfillment. We only flourish. I think there's a myth in our culture right now that individuals can flourish. You think of, oh, that person. You see them as a single person, as an individual and you hear about their success and the appearance by all appearances like that individual is flourishing, but underneath them, invisibly, they're part of a larger community. Flourishing is only. We only become our best through other people. So we have this pronoun problem, basically I me, when actually it's we and us, right? Self improvement. We talk about self improvement. Actually that's not as powerful as shared improvement. Right. So this idea that we're actually pre wired to flourish through community. Pre wired. And one way to access that, I think is to think about times in your life, moments in your life when you have felt the most alive, the most connected, the most growing that have challenged you and that have made you who you are. I'm going to say those moments didn't happen when you were by yourself in a sauna, when you were training alone. Those were relationships. Those were moments when you're in community. Those are moments when community was lighting you up in some new way and challenging you to grow and creating conditions where you could grow. So the challenge to somebody In a Fortune 100 is a mid level is who's your community? How are you nurturing it? Life looks like a game every day. Guess what? Sorry, it's not a game, it's a garden. And long term, growing the garden of your career is going to benefit you. It's in your self interest way more than playing the game of your career. Growing the garden of your career. So the question to ask every day is like, who's in my garden? Who can I learn from? What relationship do I need to feed and nurture? And who can I feed? Who can I help? We had Craig Counsel in to interview for the guardians manager position a few years ago and somebody asked him what he did when he was feeling down. Like hard job, lonely job, like a lot of jobs talk about sort of the loneliness of the manager. His answer was, I go find somebody I can help. Go find a rookie, I can help. Go find a clubhouse person I can help. I that's my cure. It's like that really stayed with me because it's his problem, right. You'd think he'd want to sort of self gratify and I need to fix myself. It's like, no, it's community comes down to like serve thy neighbor. It comes down to helping other people and that instinct which is kind of the opposite of what we really want to do in some ways. Right. It's hard to do that. That freaking hard to get out of your own head. But that instinct to flip it and say, wait, who can I go help? Is a really powerful question. Talk about powerful questions.

Dan Coyle (41:05)

Oh my God. I mean, I sort of think of these places I visited as being the cure for this kind of AI dystopia that we are. We're moving toward. I mean, we're clearly moving toward that. And there's a lot of structures in our society that really want to divide our attention and keep us individualized and keep us apart from community or provide a fake artificial friend for us to talk to, which is absolutely hilarious and dark and wrong. But the idea that the cure is we're pre wired for this stuff. There are these huge meta studies that show are you happier when you get a gift or give a gift? Guess what, you're happier when you give one. We all know that already. We're increasingly learning. It feels like there is this sort of humanist revival. Maybe I'm gassed up on my own, on my own research, but in visiting these places, these communities that have kind of come back to life, these businesses like Zingerman's Deli, for example, that have absolutely thrived by not scaling like we think of scaling as being this oh, that's good to do. Oh, always good to do. They had an offer. This is this little deli in Ann Arbor that I write about. They were very successful, you know, just the best Ruben, you've ever had. And a lot of your listeners may have even been there. It's very, it's very famous. It started in 1982. They've grown and grown and grown. And at one point, Walt Disney came up to them and part of their values is to be in Ann Arbor. That's where they are. That's where they do their business. And Walt Disney came up to them with a $50 million offer to say, we want you in our park. Like, you guys are great deli. We want you in our park. And for most businesses, that's a no brainer. Like, we're going to do it. And for Zingerman's, it took like 20 minutes. They're like, nope, we're not interested. If you ever come to Ann Arbor, if you ever have a Walt Disney World in Ann Arbor, we will be in it. But short of that, this is where we get our meaning. This is where we get our purpose. This is the ground in which we grow our roots. And they have got this community of businesses there. There's a creamery, there's a travel business, there's a wedding planning business, there's a Korean barbecue. There's all these connected business, this family of businesses that is deep in Ann Arbor and has all kinds of deep connections with that community. So not to say every business has to follow that model, but there are models for creating those kinds of relationships that can actually lead to a much deeper sense of thriving than simply the present model we're given where it's like, go, go, go, go, go. And be narrow and scale.