← The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
677: Erin McGoff - How to Communicate at Work, Negotiate Your Salary, Write Cold Emails, Overcome Rejection, Run Better Meetings, and Build a Career That Matters
00:52:04
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- [00:03]
A
Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am your host Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Go to learningleader.com for show notes of this and all podcast episodes. Go to learningleader.com now on to tonight's featured leader. Aaron McGough is the youngest of six kids. Which means she learned early that if you want to be heard at the dinner table, you better be quick and fun. Her parents are writers who told her to make a dent in the universe. So when an older executive told the then 23 year old Aaron to be more realistic about her ambitions, Aaron responded by getting international distribution for her documentary. Then, while stuck in a tiny Brooklyn apartment during COVID Aaron propped up her phone on a window AC unit, made a TikTok video about job interviews and woke up to 20 million views. Today she's got millions of followers from all over the world and is the best selling author of a new book called the Secret Language of Work. During our conversation we discuss how to best answer the question. So tell me about yourself then how to properly ask for and earn a raise, how to create a great five year plan and more importantly, why you should do it even though the world is really unpredictable. And then Aaron gave an incredible answer to the champagne question. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Aaron McGough. This episode is brought to you by Insight Global. Insight Global is a staffing and professional services company dedicated to being the light to the world around them. If you want to learn more about the CEO Burt Bean and Chief Revenue Officer Sam Kaufman, check out episode 424. We had a fantastic conversation talking about my partnership with with the great people at Insight Global. If you need to hire one person, hire a team of people or transform your business through talent or technical services. Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world have the hustle and grit to deliver. Hiring can be tough, but hiring the right person can be magic. Visit insightglobal.com learningleader today to learn more. That's insightglobal.com learningleader so I love reading the acknowledgement sections of books and yours did not disappoint. You write about your parents, fellow writers Chris and Claire for encouraging you to go out and dent the universe and that your dad also said you were born a leader. Can you tell me more about Chris and Claire, what it was like having them as your parents growing up?
- [02:52]
B
Oh, I'd be happy to. Yeah, it was great. I'm the youngest of six kids so yeah, it was a great upbringing. My dad is a business owner who' Born and raised in Scranton, Pennsylvania, the son of a funeral home director. And my mom was raised in the Texas Panhandle, the daughter of a single mom, public school teacher. So they come from very humble backgrounds. But I watched them, like, as I was growing up, make their life happen. We moved to D.C. my dad started a consulting firm. He worked at IBM right out of college. Yeah, he's a very, like, charismatic and inspiring person, for sure. I actually have one of his books behind me here and my mom's collection of poetry. Yeah, he has lots of phrases, and I think dent the universe is actually taken from Steve Jobs originally. But I've always loved this idea of, like, go out and dent the universe. They didn't put a lot of pressure on me to necessarily, like, get perfect grades or go to Harvard or kind of check these boxes, but they more wanted me to just go out and use my privilege in this beautiful upbringing that I had to go make the world a better place. So I definitely feel like I had a lot of privilege growing up with parents who really inspired me to have this intrinsic motivation. And I hope that I can replicate that for my future family.
- [03:58]
A
What about your siblings being the youngest of six? I mean, you know, we have five, and our youngest is just. She acts way older than she is. She gets after it. She's the most aggressive on the soccer field all the. What was it like for you having to, like, get attention probably when your parents are tired after having five before you? I mean, what was that like?
- [04:17]
B
Wait, you have five kids yourself?
- [04:19]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [04:20]
B
Oh, my gosh. That's crazy. Oh, wow. Yeah, I'm a classic youngest child. That's why I can speak very, very quickly, is because you have to be quick to get in your thoughts at the dinner. T. I was spoken down to my entire childhood because, you know, you're the youngest, you're the most naive in the family, and you get a lot of unsolicited advice and feedback. So that's kind of why I think I love giving advice, is because I was given advice my whole life, and you don't get to make your own mistakes because everybody tells you, well, don't do this, do that, which is a good and a bad thing. I think people need to learn how to make their own mistakes. But I'm very grateful. My older siblings are all mentors to me in different ways, and I very, very much credit them for helping me with my success. But we still very much, like, tease each other. We're very close. Yeah, I love being from a big family. Will I have six kids? Absolutely not. But I don't know how they did it, but, yeah, I love being part of a big family, so it's cool to hear that.
- [05:15]
A
What do they think of you now? 30 under 30. Absolutely crushing it. Going to Davos, you know, you're making it happen in real time. What do your siblings and your parents think of you now?
- [05:27]
B
Oh, well, there's my parents and then there's my siblings. My parents are classic. I'm proud of you. You're crushing it. You know, my siblings sole job, I think, in life is to keep me as grounded as possible.
- [05:38]
A
Keep you humble. That's right. Right. That's what siblings are best for. Right?
- [05:42]
B
They roast me. They beat me down. And it's great because it's all in good fun. We all roast each other and we're tough on each other, but we're also really supportive of each other. My other siblings all do their own thing. Everybody kind of has their own company or they do their own independent thing. We're all very entrepreneurial. So I'll call my brother and I'll be like, hey, I just got this contract, or, hey, you know, how's an S4 work? And it's really cool to be able to collaborate but also still be, like, really goofy and silly with each other.
- [06:09]
A
When you think about people who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time, one of the commonalities is their who, the people that they surround themselves with. And it sounds like, in your case, just having that core family unit, the ones that keep you humble, the parents who are proud of you, who have told you to make a dent in the universe. I love that. I think it's inspiring to hear.
- [06:29]
B
Yeah, definitely. And a sense of humor, too, is huge. I think my success. Well, I know my success is attributed to my sense of humor. I gave career advice that was funny and, like, nobody had ever really seen that before. You don't get that unless you're the slightly bullied youngest of six kids your entire life. So I definitely thank them for giving me a sense of humor.
- [06:51]
A
What are the other groups that you said thank you to? You said, quote, to anyone who said, I was too ambitious or I was too young or I was too green or I just needed to, quote, be more realistic. Thank you. And you said, seriously, spite is a really fantastic motivator for me. And I got to use that motivation to write a whole book empowering people to follow their dreams. It's funny how that works. Can you talk to me more about the fuel of Spite of the ones who thought maybe you were thinking too big and how you use that fuel to do big, impactful things.
- [07:25]
B
I think I was a sophomore in college. I paid like 150 bucks, which back then was a lot of money for me to go to this women in film networking event. And I will never forget it. I came in dressed up, prepared. I had a little teaser for this documentary I was working on, and I met with this head of a women in film organization. First of all, she was 15 minutes late to our 30 minute window. And then I turned around my iPad and I kind of started to show her the trailer. And I was all excited. And I was this energetic young woman in film, and what I was doing was really realistic. I had raised money, I had gotten a grant. Like, I was. I wasn't an idiot. I had a lot to learn. And about 30 seconds into the trailer, she paused it and she said, you need to be more realistic. She totally beat me down. She was just like, you need to wait your turn. You need to climb the ladder. You need to do this in 10 years. And looking back, I just see that she was projecting, like, so much insecurity onto me. And fortunately, I'm pretty actually good at dealing with rejection and disappointment. Like I said, I'm a commander's fan, so that was ingrained in me, myself.
- [08:33]
A
They were good last year, though. Jaden Daniels. I mean, you got to feel good. Dan Quinn's awesome.
- [08:37]
B
Don't even get me started, okay?
- [08:38]
A
He's a listener of this show. I've talked to him about it. So I'm a big Dan Quinn fan. Are you into it? You gotta be.
- [08:44]
B
Yeah. Oh, yeah. We just had so many injuries this year. Okay, that's.
- [08:47]
A
Sorry for the sight tangent, but you told me beforehand that you're a football fan and Commander, so we had to, like, go there at least a little bit.
- [08:52]
B
It's taught me to be very resilient, I should say.
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A
Okay.
- [08:55]
B
And I know that I said spite is a big motivator. I'm actually not a very spiteful person. I'm not a very grudgeful person. But when somebody tells me I can't do something that I know I can do, I think that youngest child thing comes out in me, and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna make you regret saying that. And so I did. I went on, I got a Pulitzer fellowship, I flew to the other side of the world, I hired a crew, I raised all this money, I got the film done and premiered a feature documentary film. When I was 23 years old. That got international distribution. And so I. I don't know if she knows that, but I love that she said that to me because it set me off on this trajectory to just prove her wrong. I always say it's like rejection rage. Like I tell people, when you get a rejection in an email, you. You have two choices. You can let that either beat you down and say, oh, man, Tell yourself the story where you're not good enough, or you can say, oh, I'm going to show them. And, you know, the latter is much more beneficial for your career and for your mental health.
- [09:47]
A
One of the things I found to be inspiring, that I've learned from this show and then meeting other people who are in powerful positions, and you've been in those rooms quite a bit early in your career, is almost everybody, literally almost everybody is figuring it out as they go. They have no idea what they're doing. And so when someone tells you that you're too ambitious or thinking too big, it's like, what? Nobody knows what they're doing anyway, so I might as well go for the big giant thing. You know, that's what I'm inspired by reading your book and reading about your story and you is the fact that you get into these rooms. Yes, you are there. Sometimes you get in there like, wow, she's got it figured out. He's got it figured out. But a lot of times you get in those rooms and you say, doesn't really know what they're doing. And figuring out as they go, I might as well shoot for the big thing.
- [10:38]
B
Yeah, My podcast is actually called no one knows what They're Doing. Yeah, that's always been my mantra. I would say, nobody knows what they're doing. No one knows what they're doing. Everybody was born the same way. A dumb, squishy baby. Everything anybody knows, they learned. Because what I see a lot is people walk into rooms and they think, I'm not good enough to be here. Everybody here is just innately better than me, when really they were just born under different circumstances and had opportunities that you maybe didn't have. And that's why this secret language of work, my book is so important, because it's an education that not everybody had equal access to. Everything is figureoutable. You can learn anything. I mean, I made a huge career pivot. I think that's one thing that my parents definitely instilled in me, was just like, you can do whatever you want. We're all gonna be dead in 200 years. We're meat sacks on a floating rock. It's not that deep.
- [11:25]
A
If you're willing to work, though, you're not entitled to anything. But it is out there. I feel like that's a big part of the story too, when it comes with you, Aaron, is you can do anything if you're willing to do the work.
- [11:40]
B
That's really important. If you're willing to do the work. And there's another really important element here. Whenever I say no one knows what they're doing, people say, oh, well, a pilot knows how to fly a plane. Or you need to listen to doctors, you need to listen to science. That's not at all what I'm saying. Experts know what they're doing. They do. They're experts. It's more when you zoom out in general life, the sentiment is that nobody's innately better than you or innately knows more than you. They are experts in their craft and they know how to do the thing. But nobody predicted the pandemic. Nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow. No one. So it's just about remembering that we're all in the same boat here. And I would say my best piece of career advice is to get really, really, really good at what you do
- [12:22]
A
so good they can't ignore you.
- [12:23]
B
Right?
- [12:23]
A
The Steve Martin stuff. Right. Not about an agent or any of this stuff. Just gets so good at the craft of the thing that you're choosing to do. I want to get into some of the tactical things that I learned from reading your book. Okay. I love the world's worst interview question. Okay, the world's worst interview question. 1. I want you to tell me why that's the worst question. And also I'd love for you to tell me how to best answer it because everyone is still going to get that question. And that is. So tell me about yourself. Why is that the worst question? And with that said, how can you best answer it?
- [13:02]
B
I hate this question so much. That was my first video to go Viral. In early 2021, I posted how to answer the worst Job Interview question ever. Tell me about yourself. I posted it, I went to bed and I woke up and I had like 20 million views. So I was like, oh, okay, I did something right there. Because it's something everybody struggles with and it's a terrible question for two reasons. By the way, if you're somebody who hires listening to this, I would encourage you to rephrase this question. But anyway, it's terrible because one, it's lazy. It's just not specific. And Two, it's really hard for the interviewer to truncate their entire life story into, like, 90 seconds. So what I did is that I came up with a template that anybody can follow. And it's really, really simple. It's just past, present, future. And you just give one or two sentences for each category. And then you can tack on maybe a little something fun at the end, A little spice, a little pizzazz, maybe a hobby that you're into. And I'd be happy to give you an example, please. So I used to use myself as the example, but it's really boring because I don't have a typical career. So now I use Elle woods from Legally Blonde.
- [14:05]
A
Love her.
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B
I like pop culture. Whenever I can, I'll pull from the office or Parks and Rec because it just makes it a bit more fun. So if I was Elle Woods, I would say my past is I studied fashion merchandising at ucla and I was the president of my sorority, Delta Nu. Then I went to Harvard Law, and I studied constitutional law. And then the present would be, after graduating and passing the bar, I accepted a job as an attorney for woods and Associates. And absolutely love my job as a lawyer, prosecuting criminals and advocating for my clients with a 95% success rate. And then the future. This is really, really important because this is where the interviewer's ears are going to perk up because they're going to say, where is this person going? And so you want to keep it truthful and honest, but also in line with this role that you're applying for. So I like to say something like, looking forward. I'm at a point in my career where I'm ready to lean into a lifelong passion of mine, which is animal rights. So I want to use my skills to advocate for the voiceless through legal advising. So when I saw this position open up, which ideally would be a position in animal rights legal advising, I knew I had to apply. So you kind of, like, bring it all back to the role that you're applying for. And, of course, you can always add something fun at the end. And on the weekends, I like to go on hikes with my dog or something like that, just to make it a bit more human.
- [15:22]
A
Really well done. Not surprising, given that I've seen a ton of your short form video. Now, for the leader, the one asking the questions, what is a better way to ask that question?
- [15:34]
B
I think it's really simple. It's just to read the resume real quick before they come in the room and to ask something More specific. So, for example, I see you've primarily worked in litigation. What makes you want to come work in house, you know, at a corporation or for example, I saw you graduated and then went back to school a few years later. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Just get like a little bit more specific. And the thing is, is that the higher quality the question, like the questions you're asking me are very high quality, the higher quality the answer is going to be. So it's actually just in the interviewer's best interest to be more specific.
- [16:08]
A
So that word specificity is like one of my favorite words in the history of the world. Because if you are sending a cold email to somebody and you want to meet with them, the chances of getting a good response dramatically increase. If you are specific, specific praise, specific question. Think about the times, Aaron, that you get emails that say, aaron, I would love to take you out for coffee and pick your brain. Right?
- [16:40]
B
I'll pick your brain, right?
- [16:42]
A
It's disgusting. It's gross. Also, it also is the opposite end of the spectrum to specificity. Or if someone said, aaron, I watched this specific short form video about how to deal with the question. Tell me about yourself. And when you said this thing, it really piqued my curiosity. I would love to talk to you more about that or whatever, something more specific about you and your life. What is it like being the youngest of six kids, having parents who are actual writers? The fact that those questions are more specific and more personal pique your curiosity and make you want to give better answers or at least interest you more, and so you're more excited and dialed in, and that leads to a much better conversation. That isn't just for podcasts. That's for life, right? That's for life. That's for conversations, that's for interviews for a job, Whether you're the leader or the person going for the job. I think these are life skills that you're teaching, not just career skills.
- [17:45]
B
Oh, 100%. I mean, people always say, this isn't good just for careers. This is good for my personal life too. And I'm like, yeah, that's strategic communication. It's, you know, careers are a bit more narrow because in your personal life you can just get away from that person. But in your career, you're gonna have to work with people that you don't like, so you have to figure out how to communicate with them. And I loved what you said about cold emails. I've made several videos on how much I hate the phrase pick Your brain, because it makes me think of the lobotomy. But, yeah, if somebody messages me and they say, hey, Aaron, you know, are you free for a coffee chat? Like, no, I'm not. Or, hey, Aaron, I heard you on Ryan's podcast. I really liked what you said about this. Specifically, I'm in a similar scenario, or I'm. I go to your old alma mater, that is going to get a response because there's that mutuality there. There's a mutual connection, there's a similarity, and they took the time to actually invest. So I completely agree with you there.
- [18:35]
A
Speaking of communication, you write, good professional communication is like chess. The obvious move isn't always the most advantageous for winning the overall game. You have to know how to play and think several steps ahead. What did you mean by that?
- [18:51]
B
So a lot of powerful communication actually comes down to emotional regulation and being mature. So oftentimes, I'll post a video with good communication advice for the real world in reality, not just, you know, an Internet sketch that's funny, but something that's actually going to be effective. And people will say, they'll comment, you know, every now and then, why can't I just say what's on my mind? Why do I have to sound like a robot? Why do I have to sound like a corporate droid? And it's funny because, you know, if we just act impulsively, like from our ID in psychology, just, you know, say what's on our mind all the time, it doesn't actually get you where you want to go. And so that's why my whole book is about your desired outcome. It's about always keeping in mind what the end goal is. It's checkmate. So a lot of people, most people just play checkers. It's. You said this to me. I'm gonna say this to you. But it's about thinking, what is this relationship? What is my goal at the end of the day? And how does this person fall into my life? And how can I use mouth sounds, as I say in the book, you know, to get what I want? So I always say good communication is chess, not checkers. It's about thinking 10 steps ahead. And I don't mean that in a manipulative way. It's more in a regulatory way where it's like, how can I maybe bite my tongue now or phrase something a little bit kinder so that I don't regret the way that I spoke tomorrow?
- [20:08]
A
Yeah. Can I pose, what is a real life example? And then you give me kind of Real time advice. When. And this is a communication question. So let's say you want a promotion and you've caught the eye because of your great work from a very powerful, important person at your Fortune 100 company who's like an SVP or greater that person, while they're awesome at their job, they're really good. They're in a leadership role. They're powerful. They also have a big ego. They are a fan of themselves. And we all can picture some of these people. So you want a promotion or more money or something like that for them. You want to stay at the company. This person already kind of is into your work because you've crushed it and you do really good work. What are some general kind of ways you would approach a person like that in order to get to Checkmate, in order to get to the thing that you want, whether it's promotion, raise, all of the above.
- [21:08]
B
It's a really great scenario. It's also very common scenario.
- [21:14]
A
Been there, been there.
- [21:16]
B
Yeah, right. You've been there personally?
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A
Oh yeah, for sure. I worked in Corporate America for 12 years before doing all this. So there are absolute. The Harvard Business School West Point grads who, you know, have it all, the perfect resume, super powerful, very smart. Also, ego is definitely there. So.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Yeah.
- [21:35]
B
I've personally never been really great at dealing with ego. That's like half the reason I left the film industry was there were so many people I was like, guys, we aren't saving lives here. Everybody needs to dial it back a bit. Well, I'm curious. I'll give my feedback and advice. But I'd be curious also to hear what you would say as somebody who has dealt with this firsthand. It sounds like not just one time. So a lot of being a great communicator is actually putting your ego to the side. And it's something people are really hard at doing because we're trained from a very young age to protect our ego and our reputation and to stand up for ourselves. However, in some scenarios it requires, and I am not saying you should grovel, I'm not saying that you should be fake with anybody, but just thinking about this person, not you. And that's what I mean by putting the ear, you get to the side. Just taking a break from thinking about yourself and just thinking about this person and thinking about what their life is like and what their goals are like. So they're a senior VP at this company. They think they're really cool and they're in a position to give you something that you Want. If I was a betting person, I would actually bet that they aren't actually super egotistical. They're probably actually really insecure about where they are in their career. And they probably wake up every morning because they don't know what they're doing. And they think, am I. Am I at the right company? Should I have went and started my own company out of college? Maybe they have issues with their marriage, maybe they have issues with their kids. They have dirty laundry at home. Like, they're just a person. So I always try to humanize people, give people the benefit of the doubt. Don't make people wrong, which is really hard to do, especially in this day and age when people get heated very, very quickly and just try to humanize them, see them as a person and think about what their goals are and how can you align your goals with their goals and try to have that authentic relationship with them. Again, not thinking about yourself, but putting yourself in their shoes and then figuring out how you can align those goals. Yeah. And definitely, you know, where you can appeal to their ego. Ask them about themselves and what their goals are. And listen. Like, shut up and listen. I think we do a little bit too much talking sometimes when we're trying to either negotiate or strategize. It can be very beneficial to just embrace the silence and some active listening. But, yeah, I'd love to hear. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
- [23:43]
A
Thank you. I think that's super helpful, by the way. And I agree with all of it. I think one, and this has kind of come about naturally for me, probably over the course of doing 670 of these things. Curiosity is an amazing way to show love. Being genuinely curious about a person is to me, again, it becomes more natural. And I think everybody has a story and there's something I could learn. And I'm fascinated by people's stories, but acting in that way actually makes them like you. That's good. With a person who has an ego or is insecure. All the above. So being curious, as you just said. Also, there are probably really good attributes. There are things that that person is probably really, really good at. It doesn't hurt to remind them that you see that.
- [24:30]
B
I like that it doesn't hurt.
- [24:32]
A
So. And it's got to be real, though it cannot be.
- [24:35]
B
Has to be genuine.
- [24:36]
A
Got to be genuine. So if they are good at or whatever the thing, they have to be, if they're in that role, they probably are whatever those things are. Again, what's the magic word? Specificity. Tell them that you have learned this from them, that you appreciate this about them. It's got to be real, it's got to be genuine. It'll bring you closer. People like other people who like them. When you tell somebody something nice about themselves that shows you like them, at least that part about them, they're probably going to like you. So people promote and hire people that they trust and believe in and people that they like. And so those are some ways being curious, not being shy with the compliments. As long as they're specific and real, those have been helpful ways. By the way, that kind of leads to good relationships just in general. Like with my wife, I do the same thing. And she's not egotistical. She's not any of those things. I still try to act the same way. It works. I mean, so I think, again, these are like more life skills too. But it's being aware, being curious, noticing, and then just saying it. And it seems to help you connect with people.
- [25:48]
B
Absolutely, 100% agree. And I think you hit the nail on the head with it has to be genuine and specific. A lot of people ask me, well, Erin, how do I not make it feel so transactional or like I'm using them? And I'm like, well, don't make it transactional and don't use them. Like, just be. Just be genuine. I'm sure you can find one thing about that person that you truly admire. I mean, they didn't get there for nothing. So, yeah, just always try to find like a. Yeah, genuine. And don't. If anybody's listening to this, don't ever give compliments that you don't mean, because people are actually way better at stuffing that stuff out than people realize.
- [26:18]
A
Absolutely, 100%. Okay. I love your video on this one. Running meetings. So this is a leadership podcast. Leaders run meetings. A lot of meetings are run really, really poorly. Let's wait for everybody to get in here, you know, and it's 4:07. I noticed you were early to this zoom call. Not surprised, knowing you. How can we as leaders run world class meetings? Especially let's run meetings so at least others aren't secretly dreading them. Using your language, like, how can we run world class meetings?
- [26:53]
B
There are thousands of management books written on meetings and meeting bloat and just the time that we lose in meetings, especially since the pandemic, meeting bloat has gotten really, really bad. And on one hand, not everything has to be efficient. It's okay sometimes to have 15 minutes of small talk with your team that's fine. I'm not telling people that they shouldn't do that. However, the most loving thing you do for other people is respect their time. And a lot of time is disrespected in meetings across the world and the country. So my first tip for running incredible meetings that people look forward to going to and are very, very productive is to maybe not have the meeting. A lot of meetings are completely unnecessary, or at least the way that they're set up or the people who are invited or the way that they're run are really, really inefficient. Some companies have fantastically creative policies like no meetings Mondays or no meetings mornings or what company is it that does 25 minute meetings? So there's always buffers on both ends. I think finding these creative solutions can be really fantastic. Another thing, in addition to just deciding if there has to be a meeting at all, is making sure that the right people are invited to the meeting. There's a lot of different experts who will say, you know, four is the right number. Five, you know, if you go over that, it's, I don't know, you can read different people and decide for yourself, but just make sure that only crucial people are invited. And then third is to just have an agenda. When was the last time you went to a meeting? And at the top of the meeting they said, here are the three things we're going to cover today and here's the goal of this meeting. That's what high performing people do. And they don't just do that in the meeting itself, but they put it in the calendar link and they put an outline. And it doesn't have to be anything insane. It can just be three bullet points and then a goal. Here's what we're going to do at the end of this meeting. Don't have brainstorming meetings. Have meetings with very tangible goals at the end. State them up front and make sure that that goal has been achieved by the end or some other, you know, meeting has been set to achieve that goal. And one other just like really practical tip for any managers out there. Email subject lines are a very underutilized source for respecting people's time and communicating clearly. I really love it actually. My dad's company I think is where I learned this from. They would put three different tags in the subject lines of their emails. They would put like request informational or like it was a command or something. And there are basically three categories of email. So you knew in your email inbox exactly what was going to happen and that would translate to meetings as well. Just being really clear about what type of meeting it was and what the goal was. You will be shocked at how much more you can get accomplished in a much shorter amount of time with just clearly labeling your emails, meetings and what the goals are.
- [29:48]
A
I like that. Okay, I'm going to ask a question about something I'm terrible at and I hope you can help me. So you get asked this in interviews sometimes. Where do you see yourself in five years? I struggle to do this beyond like next week. I'm more head downs. Let's do the work in front of me as hard as I can and be as prepared as possible and I'll worry about next week. Next week, you know, not always great, but can be effective in the short term. How do you best make a useful great five year plan?
- [30:24]
B
So I talk a lot about five year plans, but not in the way other people might approach them. So I actually don't really believe in making a five year plan and sticking to it. Maybe that's my type Z personality or whatever I have, but I just think the world is changing way too rapidly to put yourself in a box. However, I am a huge, huge, huge fan of making a five year plan. And that's because the exercise of thinking about future you actually creates new neural pathways in your brain that change the way that you think about yourself in your life and even what you're going to eat for lunch that day. So I always say a happy life is an intentional life. And a lot of people, I dare say the vast majority of people will float through life. They kind of take it one day at a time and they act very reactionary. So this happens, then I do this, this happens, then I do this. The exercise of sitting down and making a five year plan and thinking about, okay, I'm 25 now. When I'm 30, like when I'm actually 30 years old on my 30th birthday, what do I want to feel like? Like what I want my bank accounts look like, what kind of car do I want to be driving? You don't have to stick to it. But just thinking about what do I actually want in five years, that is such a powerful exercise. To just do the actual exercise and then you can throw it away or you can adjust it or you can create five different five year plans, which is something I recommend especially for people who are young and don't know which path they're going to take. But thinking about the future is self care. That's just what I think. And discipline is self care for future you. And especially too, I highly recommend if you have a boyfriend or a serious partner or a fiance, sit down with them before you get married and do this together. Because your five year plans might look really, really different and this might be a very revealing time for you or they might look really, really similar. You might double down. But it's really, really important to think about your future.
- [32:21]
A
What are some of the things on your current five year plan?
- [32:25]
B
Oh, so I'm 30, so I'll be 35 in five years. There's probably a kid in there somewhere, maybe two. We'll see. I am married. I've been with my husband since I was 14. So it's 4. Probably about time. Let's see what else. I don't know. I'm actually really happy with my life right now. So if my life looked like this in five years, I would be like, really happy with that. I like my house, I like my dog, I like my job. So for the first time, actually I think my five year plan, it doesn't look that different except for the whole, you know, kids flipping your world upside down thing. That will probably change a lot for me eventually.
- [33:01]
A
I identify with that too. I did this actually with my team of coaches recently.
- [33:06]
B
Really?
- [33:06]
A
And said, hey, okay, what's the dream set up for us? What are we doing? Where are we at? And it was funny. I mean, I feel so lucky to get to work with my guys. But one of my teammates, Garen Stokes, you're just one of the greatest. He goes, I got to be real with you, man. I want to be doing exactly what I'm doing right now. Yeah, this is the dream. And I just, I mean, one that made me feel very good. But I believe him completely. And I thought, man, me too, me too. Like, I'm sure there'll be different things. So that's why the five year thing sometimes is hard because if you feel fortunate to be doing something very cool that lights you up every day and you're like, ninja. Kick out of bed is another one of Garen's isms. I'm that excited before the alarm goes off because of what I get to do today, it is a pretty cool spot to be in. But also, maybe there are bigger things that could help me put a bigger dent in the universe. To use your dad's language, maybe that could be part of it too. Do you have those big put a bigger dent in the universe beyond being a mom and things like that that you think could be on that list?
- [34:11]
B
Oh, yeah. Definitely have financial goals, you know, want to be financially free next five years. So that's a big one. And I'm founding a tech startup right now. So I want that to be very successful, preferably in the next six months. But you know, five years, I want it to be helping lots and lots and lots of people. And having transformed the job market, I want to be working on my second or third book. I really liked writing a book after writing short form content, it posed a particular challenge writing. But I really liked being able to expand and having space to expand. After years of fitting things into 60 seconds, really I'm mission driven. So my goal is to help as many people as possible in profound ways and to make money while doing that and to wake up every day and feel really relaxed and happy. Anything that can fit into that is on my five year plan.
- [35:05]
A
Maybe this is a weird question based on just watching your videos. Do you want to act or like be a part of big movies? I mean, you do it really well. You usually play both roles. If there are two people in the video, you're both the boss and the employee or whatever. Do you want to do that? Like a movie shows, anything like that?
- [35:24]
B
I talk to myself all day. I don't think I'm a good actor at all.
- [35:30]
A
I don't know.
- [35:30]
B
I did work in the film industry and I do have like a little personal goal. I would love to like have a film at Sundance, which is funny. So I'm going to Sundance next week. That's always been like a dream of mine. I still have like some film industry goals. So actually one of my general goals is to get really rich and then to start my own film production company and then to fund people I want to fund because so much of the film industry is gate kept and even more now with these consolidations happening. There's like five people in Hollywood who can greenlight your project and they only greenlight existing directors projects. So anyway, I want to be the person to tell people yes and yeah, I mean, I have pitched actually a few series the past few years. I've gotten really close to getting them greenlit. But the film industry is completely.
- [36:09]
A
That you're in or would you be in them?
- [36:11]
B
Yeah. Nonfiction though, so they wouldn't be documentaries per se. Structured reality. Yeah.
- [36:18]
A
What would that look like?
- [36:20]
B
I can't really get into any type of details, but I personally really like unstructured reality or structured reality shows. And so I think these kind of like social experiments are really interesting. And I would love to executive produce some of those. But the industry's really not in a place now where it's taking any type of creative risks. So it's a dream would be for the next five year plan.
- [36:41]
A
Yeah, I appreciate the transparency of saying, I want to get really rich so I can do this green light, cool projects that I would do as well as others. Just being that honest instead of acting like that's not what you're trying to do, I think is inspiring for people to hear.
- [37:01]
B
Oh, yeah, it's like totally fine to say you want to make up a ton of money. I mean, a lot of people were raised with that being discouraged because especially in like religious communities, like, oh, that scene is greedy. It's absolutely not. It's greedy to make a bunch of money to keep it and to not put it back into the economy or put it into people, which a lot of people do. But my goal is to make a ton of money and then use money, which is power, to give wonderful people opportunities to then in return, make the world even better. So, yeah, those are the types of people we need to make rich.
- [37:31]
A
I agree with you. Speaking of that, you have some stuff in your book as well as videos about people who want to ask for a raise. What is the best way to ask for a raise?
- [37:46]
B
One thing about writing a book is that you write a whole chapter on something and you're like, where do I begin? There's so much I could say give a whole TED Talk on asking for a raise. My first tip is to fix your mindset before going into it. So a lot of people think, oh, I need to go in and ask for a raise. Pretty please. That's actually not at all what you're doing. Your job is transactional. You get hired to do a job and you do that job and they pay you. It's 100% transactional and it's a deal. So they are paying a market value for you to do a job and you agreed to that market value. You said, yep, that sounds good. The problem is that it's largely subjective, but it's also not. You can find a lot of data to back up what you should be paid. There's never been a better time for pay transparency ever in the history of humanity. So the one thing is, yeah, resetting your mindset. And I actually encourage people to not say, can I have a raise? But rather, can I have an adjustment to my compensation? This is no longer an equal partnership. When I accepted the salary, I was doing xyz. Now I'm doing xyz. Plus abc. And so it's unfair now, and we need to adjust this to be equal, to be a fair partnership. My phrase most uttered in the book is, it's not personal, it's just professional. And sometimes when people, when they hear me say that, they say, oh, but it is personal. It's your life. It's not what I mean. I mean that it's not an emotional conversation. You're not asking for a raise. You're saying, we have a deal, we have a partnership, we have a transactional partnership. And currently you're getting more value out of this than I am. And that's. It's just not going to work for me. It's like hiring a wedding vendor and them saying, this is my price, and you saying, well, I want to pay you less. It's like, well, that's my price. That's what I charge. It's just objective. It doesn't need to be some emotional argument. The second thing is you need to have good timing. So going in after a big win, going in when the company is doing well, discussing at your performance review, these are all good times. However, it isn't just usually a one and done. So whenever you're negotiating something, I guess this is number three, is that you need to know two things. The first thing is your audience. You need to know who you're talking to. For example, in a lot of big companies, your manager can't snap their fingers, go into the payroll software and give you a raise. They actually need to go make the case to somebody else and advocate on your behalf. So they can actually only get you a raise if you give them a case to make to somebody else. So it's not about necessarily getting your boss to agree. That's just one half of the equation. You actually have to give them ammo to go negotiate on your behalf. That is so common, and that's something that a lot of people don't understand until they're in management positions. The second thing you need to understand is your leverage, which I talk about a lot in the book. You will not get a raise if you're a bad employee. They won't give it to you because they're like, why we want you to leave anyway? You need to be so good at your job. And I'm not saying you need to work hard, get there first, and stay late. Yeah, I guess that doesn't hurt. But that's not being good at your job. Being good at your job is providing value, a ton of value. Being great to work with and doing Great work. And so the more leverage that you have, the more valuable you are to this company, the more valuable they know you'll be to other companies. So the only chip you really have to play is the ability to walk away, and that's your leverage. I can go join another company. That's why the ultimate leverage is another offer. That's a great way to negotiate. So, yeah, first, remember that it's not personal. It's just professional. And then, of course, use the right language. Of course. And then remember your audience and your leverage. And there's a lot more, obviously, in the book, I talk through a lot of different scenarios. If your boss is pushing back, you know what to do. But that's kind of the short of it.
- [41:25]
A
Yeah. Some of the be so good they can't ignore you is at play here. Right. Be so good at your job. Also speaking to the other side of this, to the people who have the power to make these changes, to give these raises. When I was fortunate enough to be in leadership positions and I had some studs like the superstars on the team, proactively giving them a raise without them asking for it, yeah, those people were with me for life. I'm still close to them. We haven't worked together in some cases for a long time. But you can do it as a leader. It takes work. You got to go advocate for them, and you do it without even telling them. And then you just bring them into your office and say, by the way, I love you. I appreciate how hard you work for us and for this team. And because of that, I'm giving you this, and you've earned it. And I will always fight to keep getting this for you. And don't just do it at the time when you give them, like once a year, score, you're a one out of whatever, or a five out of five. Do it, like at a random time of the year when nobody's expecting it. It's just like gift giving. Gift giving. So powerful. If you do it outside of the normal times of gift giving, I think raise giving. So to the other side of that, as leaders, think about those people who are so good that they can't be ignored and be proactive, especially if they're the types who. It would crush you if they walk in your office and say, peace, you know, I'm going somewhere else because they gave me more money or something. So why not just be proactive about. I think that's what excellent leaders do, is they're more proactive when it comes to using Their power for good.
- [42:59]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. It shows the sign of a great, great manager. And also the flip side of that is most people won't have those proactive managers. I just had a guy message me yesterday, and he said, I haven't gotten a raise in four years. And I said, how many times have you asked? And he said, never. So. Well, closed mouths don't get fed in general in life. You can't expect anyone else to do anything for you, ever. No one can read your mind. It's wrong. A company shouldn't go four years without giving somebody a raise. But the word should is a prison. And you can't expect anybody to do anything for you. So you have to be the squeaky wheel. You got to make it really crystal clear what you want and when you want it. Yeah. Speak what you want into existence.
- [43:38]
A
I'm curious about you and your career. So I feel like when you start with these viral videos, you kind of come at it from an outsider's perspective. But now you have this book called the Secret Language of Work, Penguin Portfolio. Right. Like, one of the best publishers in the world is giving you a big book deal. The book's out and it's crushing. Are you still would have this kind of outsider's view and perspective when it comes, or are you more on the inside now because of your notoriety, because of all of the awards you've earned and the great work you've done? How do you manage that?
- [44:12]
B
Ryan, that's actually a really good question that no one's ever asked me before, and it's something that I would love to talk about. So there's something called the knowledge curse. I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but, yeah, it basically describes when you are an expert in something. It's really hard to imagine not being an expert in that thing. And it can be really hard for me to remember what it was like to go into an interview with my hands clammy. Actually, I'll never forget that. That's ingrained in my brain. But other things, it can be hard to remember, you know, what it's like. And so there are a few things that I do. One, I moved back to Maryland. Like, I live in the suburbs now. I loved living in New York, but my friends in New York were all crazy ambitious. They all knew the secret language of work. They were an anomaly. And so moving back to Maryland, in the D.C. area, I get to experience, I don't know, people just work in, like, normal corporate jobs a bit more. And that actually is something I'm really grateful for because I get so much insight into, like, what's it actually like to work as a SVP at this government contractor? So that's something that I try to really talk to people as much in real life as I possibly can and then also talk to people through DMs. I'm very fortunate to have an incredibly generous audience. And every day I DM with people. What's it like being an IT worker in North Carolina? What's it like being a nurse in Kentucky? And I just kind of listen to them and hear their stories about their bosses or their coworkers or their job search. And that really helped me stay grounded because I wake up every morning, I read three business and job market newsletters at minimum. And sometimes the data tells a really different story than people's actual experiences. So I am very grateful for my audience sharing their personal anecdotes with me on a regular basis. I get on calls with people for free, and I just like to listen to what they're going through. But I worked in National Geographic in corporate for the first two years of building advice with Aaron, so I'm not a stranger to it. But, yeah, it is kind of a struggle sometimes. Or not a struggle. I think I successfully actually navigate that struggle of keeping that perspective, I should say, and remembering that it's one thing to give advice and it's another thing to follow it. And it's hard. Sometimes I don't even follow my own advice, so it's easier said than done. All of it.
- [46:28]
A
You're supposed to have all the answers and have it all figured out.
- [46:33]
B
Yeah.
- [46:33]
A
I mean, that's. At times, I remember speaking to James Clear about your habits have to be perfect. And he's like, no, you wrote the book on habits. I mean, but like, you, right? You're the secret language of work advice with Aaron. You're supposed to know it all. And. But you're also a. You're an intelligent one, but you're. You are just another human out there trying to figure it out, you know,
- [46:54]
B
doing my best, just like everybody else, winging it every day as I go along. Yeah.
- [46:58]
A
I love this champagne question that I learned from my friend Jason Gaignard, and I'd love to ask it to you. And that is. We're meeting exactly a year from now, and we're popping bottles, we're celebrating. I'm curious. It's your life. What are we celebrating?
- [47:15]
B
Ooh, I think we're celebrating a lot of things.
- [47:18]
A
Okay.
- [47:19]
B
I think we're celebrating my startup. Stupid fish helping. I don't know, at least 500,000 job seekers feel more confident about themselves and find careers they love. That's a little ambitious, but I always love to set my goals really high because I don't care if I fail. I just care if I try to reach them. And yeah, I maybe signed a second book deal that would be kind of cool. I already have my second book concept and it's really good. I'm really excited about it. And yeah, I don't know if those two things happened in my career, I would be extraordinarily happy and I think just maintaining my work life balance too. Like if a year from now I was still feeling this happy and relaxed in my career and fulfilled and getting to help people every day in really meaningful ways, I can't ask for anything more.
- [48:13]
A
All right, I'm going to check back in a year.
- [48:16]
B
I love.
- [48:16]
A
I'm going to check back.
- [48:17]
B
What about you, Ryan? I want to know yours.
- [48:19]
A
I want to have my next book, the actual artifact in my hands and be able to turn and look at the pages. That would be, that would be a popping bottles moment to actually have the artifact of itself. And I'm on the path and it should happen, but it doesn't happen until it does. So I think that's like the status right now. I mean, the manuscript is done, so that's the hardest part. And so as you know. So I think that would be a big moment because I've done it before. But creatively I think it's the hardest thing in the world to do is to write a good book and work with one of the big publishing houses because they work very slowly, at least a lot slower than I would like, you know, this and so which should be done. But I get it. They have their own stuff, but it should be quicker. So anyway, your book to focus on that I think is really well written, it's fun. Your personality comes out. It's called the secret language of work. Hyper helpful scripts for every situation. Really good subtitle too. I love that one. It's like, it's like hyper helpful scripts for every situation. Really good. I encourage people to get it and read it. Aaron, thank you so much for doing this and I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress. Definitely going to follow up with the champagne moment, hopefully within a year. And we're talking about your startup, your next book deal, work, life, balance, all that stuff. So thank you so much for being here.
- [49:45]
B
Thank you so much, Ryan. This was a fantastic interview.
- [49:51]
A
It is the end of the Podcast Club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the Podcast Club. If you are, send me a Note ryan@learningleader.com Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Aaron McGough. A few takeaways from my notes. Master the quote Tell me about yourself. Answer past, present, future with an extra personal touch at the end. Don't ramble, don't apologize. Give them a clear story of who you are and where you are going and then do the five Year Vision exercise. This is something I'm terrible at, but want to get better. Write it down. Where do you want to be? What do you want to be doing? Who do you want to be with? If you're married, do it separately first, then compare. Make sure you're building toward the same future. Very useful exercise. Even in a world that is uncertain and chaotic at times, it's useful to map this out. And then when you want to earn something from someone powerful, humanize them first. They're also just figuring it out as they go. Think about how you can align your goals with theirs. Practice active listening. Be genuinely curious. Ask questions. Listen. Ask follow ups. Be specific. The word of this conversation is specificity. Make it a conversation, not a pitch. Again, be specific. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey you. You should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader show with Aaron McGolf. I think she'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify, Apple Podcast, subscribe, write a review, hopefully rate it 5 stars. By doing all that, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait. Sam.