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ACC Replay: The Influential Counsel: Mastering Personal Branding In The Corporate World [E83]
00:52:07
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- [00:00]
A
I get a lot of questions about personal branding and how to develop thought leadership as an in house lawyer, and I thought rather than reinvent the wheel and record a new episode, I would share a conversation that I had earlier this year with Jessica Nguyen and Alex Hsu, who are both big personalities in the legal space, growing their followers and thought leadership on LinkedIn and TikTok. Respectfully, we recorded this with the association of Corporate Counsel, Southern California Chapter. Christina Hoang and Jessica Gillette moderated the conversation. It's a bit longer than many of our episodes, but I think you'll enjoy the conversation. There's a lot of fun takeaways and there's even an appearance by Jessica's infant daughter. So enjoy this one. Welcome to the Legal Department, a podcast for lawyers who want to learn, connect and grow their careers. I'm Stacey Bratcher. I'm a general counsel and I'm excited to share these conversations to help you level up in in house.
- [01:08]
B
Today's conversation is about something we don't often get formal training on, but that plays a huge role in how we are perceived as professionals. Personal branding. Whether you consider yourself an introvert or a quiet leader, whether you're comfortable on LinkedIn or not, you already have a brand. It's how others perceive you. The question is, are you shaping it with intention? We are excited to be joined by three fantastic panelists today. Alex Hsu, Chief Revenue Officer at Latitude. Jessica Wen, Deputy general counsel at DocuSign. Stacy Brutcher, chief Legal Officer at Cottage Health. To break the ice, let's start with something fun. Would you share a fun fact about yourself? Something we wouldn't find on the Internet? Let's start with Alex.
- [01:58]
C
Fun fact. Well, this one's a little bit related to the Internet, but I am actually on some famous person's Wikipedia page because when I was in law school, I went to a political fundraiser for Cory Booker when he was, I think, the Newark mayor. And I'm standing next to him and he's talking to somebody. And so I don't know how it happened, but I made my way onto somebody's politician's Wikipedia page and that Cory Booker became, as we all know, a U.S. senator. So a high profile U.S. senator. So there is a picture of me on Wikipedia, but you can't see my face. That's my fun fact.
- [02:33]
B
Stacy, how about you?
- [02:35]
A
First of all, Christina, I love that you're asking the fun fact question. I open every episode of the Legal Department podcast with a guest's fun fact. My fun fact is that I'm from St. Louis and my husband and I got engaged at the top of the St. Louis Arch.
- [02:50]
B
Thank you. Jessica, your turn.
- [02:53]
D
I have a go to fun fact and it is I was almost on a very famous reality TV show and I had to sign an NDA that was about 1,000 pages long. But the statute of limitations has run because now I'm kind of old and show is but I duh duh duh Survivor. So I was almost on Survivor, folks. And the more fun fact is not that I was almost on Survivor and I was the top 15 that they narrowed it down. I got flown down to la, I met the producers, I was in a hotel in isolation. The fun fact was there's two One, I got rejected because they thought the producers thought I wasn't controversial enough. And then two, I actually hate camping. I'm always telling my friends the Pacific Northwest, like they all love the outdoors and their Patagonia. I'm like, why am I pretending I don't have a home? I have to buy gear to like relocate to somewhere outside. I don't have a home. So those are my fun facts, folks.
- [03:50]
B
Thank you. So now let's define our terms. What does personal brand mean to you as an in house counsel or leader? How do you personally think about it, internally or externally? Stacy, we'll start with you this time.
- [04:08]
A
Thank you and thanks to ACC for having me. You said it at the intro. If you have a brand, even if you don't know it, it is how you show up. And you know, I was talking with an in house counsel recently and they described their department as the department of no and or that's what they're known for. So if you don't inside your organization, make a deliberate attempt to show up as something different, you may have that Defaul brand. And so I have been very deliberate and intentional about what I call the Bratcher brand in house, which is I am authentic, I am creative and I am steady. And so in all of my interactions with my business partners, with service providers, I try to show up like that so that people know, like if you deal with me, what you see is what you get.
- [04:54]
B
That's awesome. How about you, Alex?
- [04:57]
C
My definition is very similar. I've always thought of it as what do people say about you when you're not in the room? This is incredibly important when I was in sales, when I was practicing, practicing law, but certainly a relevant lesson for everyone because a lot of times we don't have formal authority and very often you need to ask other People for things. And so your credibility comes into play. And so I found that as an example, using LinkedIn to further your brand, there are deliberate ways to help you internally and externally. So they all help with credibility because it's all tied to kind of what people think of when they think, see your name or hear your name.
- [05:31]
B
How about you, Jessica?
- [05:33]
D
Yeah, I'm going to build off of what Stacy and Alex said. And I think, you know, I think a lot of the folks think personal brand. I don't need to do that. I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm not trying to sell myself or my company or a product. Well, I think I'm going to do really differently. I think it's really a tool in your tool chest to be more effective at whatever you're trying to achieve or whether it be your job or some other sort of goal. So if by having a strong personal brand of Stacy like what you talked about, you're more effective at collaborating with your internal stakeholders because they know that you are not the department of. No. You will help them actually grow. No grow. Right, Alex, you're more effective at your job and they know how to get there because you've built this great online presence with your TikTok videos. And my favorite is your toy phone in your videos. Like kudos to like a license to Taiko, whoever made that whatever the toy to really drive brand awareness. And that really helps you do your job of whatever it is achieving your goal of meeting certain metrics to drive brand awareness for the organization or pipeline for your organization. But it's different. But the building personal brand helps in so many different ways. It's not just trying to sell something.
- [06:46]
B
Yeah, that's right. So now that we have defined what personal brand is, let's talk about influence and why it matters. So why do you believe influence and branding matter for in house counsel? Was there a specific moment that made you start thinking about your personal brand? Seriously? Jessica, you are on the camera. You can go first.
- [07:07]
D
Yes, I do think influence matters. And I think it matters a lot for in house attorneys, unfortunately, and more so than the average function in a business. Because we are not, we are all hello friends. In acc. In house counsel, we are not perceived in a spreadsheet or in an organization largely as driving revenue growth. Right. So the influence matter. And oftentimes too, we are not the final decision maker on it's whatever it is. We are advisors. I actually hate that term now. I used to always say like my goal is to be a strategic advisor. No not my goal professionally is to think like an owner, not an advisor. So but I think what's really hard for us is we need to influence folks though who actually have the authority to make those decisions and from a position of we're not perceived as a subject matter expert of driving growth for the organization. So that's why I think influencer matters a ton for us.
- [08:06]
B
Yeah, that's true. How about you Alex?
- [08:09]
C
Well, I've never worked in house but I think some of the challenges I face these days are probably similar in that a lot of my job is trying to convince people to do things when I have no formal authority over them. I remember early on when I first left law and became a salesperson and became a sales manager, you could tell a sales professional hey, like go make more calls. Like you have to listen to me because I'm your manager. But in my role now and a little background about latitude we we provide contract attorneys but we don't have a typical salesforce. We hire ex GCs and former law firm partners to essentially the people who do biz dev and these are people who have a lot more legal experience than I than I have a lot more work experience and so they're often I have to try to convince them through non formal cajoling them, begging them but also hopefully leaning on some of my credibility to say hey, I think I know what I'm talking about. Maybe you should listen to my ideas. And of course having a brand really helps that because I think had I not had a brand where I my content resonates with for example in house lawyers via TikTok social then it would be very hard for me to tell them hey xgc, I kind of know what you should do for marketing better than you because you've been a GC and I haven't. So I think the credibility part is so important to me and possibly relevant for any one of you who maybe also be responsible for convincing people with whom you have no formal authority over.
- [09:28]
B
That's right. How about you Stacey?
- [09:30]
A
I don't know if I have much more to add to what Jessica or Alex have said other than I think if you're in house you know that influence matters to your ability to get things done and to convince folks, et cetera. I'm wondering though if this audience is especially because Jessica, Alex and I do have more of an online presence if there's curiosity around that external marketing or branding that all of us do and how that impacts the in house environment because that's something I was Very surprised by when I launched my podcast almost two years ago, how much people inside my organization, including my CEO, were aware of it. And he made a comment to me, this is a former CEO that I had a national reputation and he was very proud of that. And again, that's something that I had not anticipated. It wasn't a goal of doing the show. And Jessica, I think you have a really cool story about how your online presence has helped you in house.
- [10:26]
D
Why thank you for the nice tee up.
- [10:28]
A
Stacey.
- [10:29]
D
So the story I had was what's interesting is not surprised for folks here. DocuSign acquired the legal tech startup that I was a part of about a year ago now. And actually part of the story was I wasn't a part of the original move over the DocuSign list because what the corp dev team saw was, oh, another GNA lawyer person. We already have a fantastic and robust legal team. We don't need another legal person on our team. So I actually was like, yes, separation agreement. But the CEO I worked with was such a champion of mine, sadly, he advocated for me to come to DocuSign. He owes me one. And so here I am at DocuSign. But what's interesting was, as you can imagine, being positioned in that way, I wasn't valued right by DocuSign initially. And what changed that perception was my external brand. Stacey so what happened was over, over a course of a few months, the CEO of DocuSign Public Company, 15 to $18 billion market cap, started following me on LinkedIn and it's like, wait a minute, I have a deputy general counsel on my legal payroll who's so good at understanding and telling the story. A key customer base of ours, the legal Persona. And I got his attention and I can't share it publicly yet, but now he is an advocate of mine and he is. And I'm working on a project with the CEO to help be more of an advocate for the in house legal Persona.
- [11:53]
B
That's interesting. So let's move to the from the why to how, what practical steps did you take to shape your brand within your company or externally? You shared a little bit, but can you share more? Jessica?
- [12:07]
D
Oh, what steps I took to build a legal brand for my company.
- [12:10]
B
For yourself?
- [12:11]
A
For myself.
- [12:12]
D
Yeah, that's really interesting. For me, it was an accident. I actually became a LinkedIn member in 2005 because the legal job market was looking tough. I was in law school at the time and about to graduate. For me, it was more of a recruiting tool. What shifted was probably when I was the general counsel of PayScale. And PayScale is a compensation data and pay equity platform. So you can imagine then, because I was the general counsel of that kind of tool, I was asked to do speaking engagements for a lot of legal conferences to talk about how to negotiate your pay. Let's look at pay data for in House counsel. How does. Are there any disparities between the pay of women versus men? And so I started to do that and I started to become bigger because apparently like for the scale of funny for lawyers and entertainment, I was apparently on the higher end of that scale. And so I started to get like it asked, did you speak engagements beyond that, beyond just for lawyers, Then it became for women, then it became for Asian Americans to be more advocate for themselves. And so that was the genesis of my I hate to use the word influencer influencer career on LinkedIn. And then it evolved to, hey, I want to be a champion for general counsels and in house counsels who are undervalued. So, Christina, the journey was long for me. No TikTok videos or cute tool phone and pivoted throughout my journey as well as my. As my professional story evolved. But it always comes from a place of I am advocating for a cause that I'm truly passionate about.
- [13:40]
B
That's really good and helpful. How about you, Stacy?
- [13:45]
A
Well, I think, you know, with Alex and Jessica, and I think there can be a bias maybe to think that, that all of this influence stuff is through a podcast or TikTok videos or posting, et cetera. But I think even going back to kind of the basic blocking and tackling, speaking on panels, being active in a specialty bar association, being on a nonprofit board, these are all ways that you build a brand. The organizations you're associated with, where you show up. So I was board member of Women Lawyers of Los Angeles for a long time. I've been on some local government boards and also speaking in the healthcare circuit. So those sorts of activities, which I think many of us do kind of part of our career or we know we should do them, but it feels like extra work. I would really encourage folks to take advantage of those because there's so many benefits in terms of building your skillset and connection. Networking and relationships are key, I think, for in house counsel. So my how. I mean, I could do a whole hour about starting the podcast and whether that was a good thing or a bad thing, but that's really sort of more recent effort. But the blocking and tackling around, speaking and getting active is really what I would say are kind of the cornerstones of bill building that brand.
- [15:01]
C
I would echo a lot of what Stacy's saying because for me, LinkedIn is only one piece of the brand. And I think, see what happens. When I started, I remember being very self conscious because I had left the practice of law to take a sales position and maybe my own self consciousness of being Asian American, I thought, hey, they're going to make me into a workhorse. They're not going to think I can sell. So it's important for me to take on public speaking opportunities. And so I took on this one. That kind of scared me. But I remember I, I got on stage and I got to speak and then someone took a picture. I slapped that picture on my LinkedIn at a speed that you wouldn't even imagine. Like, I just immediately put it on there. And what happened was that, and this is again, way before TikToks. This is like, this is probably seven or eight years ago, maybe even 10 years ago when I started interviewing for jobs. I think that picture of me on stage positioned me as someone who could do public speaking. I don't know that if someone saw my resume as someone who went to a good school and came from a big firm, they might have said, hey, that looks like a typical nerd. But because I, the work I did outside of social happened to like make its way into my LinkedIn and amplify it. That set me on a different course and of course, having, creating great social media content, skits, things like that down the road, that helped me move away from kind of what I didn't want to be known for to what I did want to be known for, which is someone who could actually effectively sell to effectively do business development. So again, that may not be directly on point for in House folks, but hopefully that like, that lesson's really, I think, an important one. Go ahead, Jessica.
- [16:29]
B
For sure.
- [16:30]
D
I was gonna say, Alex. I think it's directly on point for in House folks. I think what it showed was you were able to one, control the narrative of who you wanted to be known for as opposed to just what was on your resume. I love that story, Alex. And then two, we can do this for our professional careers. Was when I'm at a company now with over 7,000 employees, all they see in the database is my title and my and my headshot. They know nothing about me and what I stand for. So I love the intentionality. What I do is try to connect with all of my core business colleagues I partner with on LinkedIn and so they can see my content and they can see that I'm more than just a deputy general counsel at DocuSign and have preconceived notions of what it means for an in house attorney. They'll see that I'm a champion for Doc DocuSign. I'm a champion for innovation, I'm a champion for the sales team and growth. And not just a big law attorney who pivoted to sales who happens to be a great public speaker and great at TikTok videos.
- [17:29]
B
That's true. So Jessica, I remember now that you're on, I remember that during COVID I met you through one of your webinars when you were working for one of your former employers. And I remember that was like a trying to feel much more comfortable on zoom and things like that. And I remember I was like, this is her brand. This is how she shows up. She interacts with people and she feels comfortable.
- [17:54]
A
Yes.
- [17:56]
D
What is that brand authenticity.
- [17:58]
B
Yes. And then I think like you showed, you know, feeling comfortable on camera, on screen when most of us were, you know, like still not turning on the camera. And I remember in one of them you had a battle, you were comparing draft with another lawyer from a law firm. You were in house and you guys were comparing drafts. And I thought, you know, she's teaching us, she's showing up and she's entertaining. And I thought, you know, maybe we should learn from that. Right. Because we don't feel comfortable in front of a camera and doing our stuff because we think that, you know, being a legal advisor is being very serious and, you know, being very demure.
- [18:42]
D
I'm glad that I had that impact and hopefully you're more comfortable on the camera now.
- [18:46]
A
You're doing great.
- [18:47]
B
Thank you. I'm not comfortable, but yeah, thank you. So the next one is visibility without self promotion. A lot of us struggle with this one. How do you make your work and leadership visible without feeling like you're bragging or being self promotional? What are some authentic or subtle ways of advocating for yourself and your contributions?
- [19:11]
D
You want me to kick it off? I'll kick it off. Okay, I'll kick it off. So the go to is just advocate for others. So if you're not comfortable because you're going to feel cringy hitting post on LinkedIn. Most humans don't feel cringy posting about, hey, kudos to Christina for, you know, coming out of her shell and doing some public speaking and getting on camera. I love to see your growth. It's so easy for most individuals to be an advocate for others. Now, if you're not comfortable even doing that, then I think another baby step in what I did. So back when I was at Microsoft, what I hated, it was so much about visibility internally to try to get promoted to the next level. Even though I had no authority and no influence in my role at Microsoft, what I did was always email the manager and the skip level manager of a business person or a legal colleague that really did exceptional work and was in a great collaborative partner to raise their visibility, at least with their management chain, if the hopes of maybe someday there might be some minimal impact to give them a promotion or raise or raise their visibility.
- [20:19]
B
Thank you. How about you, Stacey?
- [20:21]
A
Well, I think building on what Jessica said, if we're talking about posting on social media or on LinkedIn, I mean, I don't know how many of us are like just jumping to read those posts. Honored to be speaking on this panel or so excited about my new promotion. Like, that is cringy. And it's sort of like whatever, it's not really delivering value. But if you think about. About what, about what I've done can help somebody else. Like I did this webinar with Alex, Jessica and Christina and I learned X, you know, so that is highlighting that I participated in something that is a promotional thing, but I'm showing what the meaning or the value in is of it instead of just posting or just being self promotional. So I think your intention and the message and what you're saying, saying about what you're doing is.
- [21:11]
B
And how about within your company? How do you do that, Stacey?
- [21:14]
A
I gotta say, I don't. I really, I don't. I actually, I try to be a humble person. And so, like I have, as I mentioned, have gotten a lot more attention at work from having a podcast. And it's embarrassing. Like, I'm not trying to like, meet every nurse and know everything, you know, know everybody in the, in the company because of my podcast. So I don't have a good, I don't have good advice for that. And I think just being recognized for your work, I think Jessica's idea, her, her strategy of promoting others is a real. Oh, I'm not gonna be able to focus the rest of this webinar because I want to hold that baby. So Alex maybe knows how to do it inside his organization.
- [21:58]
C
I think it's tricky. It's tricky. I think what's worked for me in the past is, you know, everyone, there's a lot of talk about wanting to be a thought leader, but I Do think that it's important to have a point of view in your industry. So the reason why I say it that way is I think a lot of people are very careful and they don't. They say kind of generic things and they put generic things out into the public because they don't want to offend anyone. But you know, you can be controversial in a very narrow way that's business focused, so it's not too polarizing. So I think having a strong point of view means that you bring something to the dialogue. I always like analogize to like at my work where if the c, the CEO or your boss says hey, do these things and you always say yes, I'll do it right away. That doesn't really help your brand or credibility because you're just a processor of work. However, if your boss says hey, do these things and you say I actually have a very strong point of view here. Here's why I think you should do these other things instead. Some of these are good ideas. Other of them I like to build on that. I think that adds to your credibility. And I think whether it's LinkedIn, speaking on panels, things like that, it is so important to have a point of view and not one that is for your peers, but for one level over. Let me explain what I mean by that. For sales people in sales, there's a temptation for a lot of salespeople to have strong points of view about how sales should be. I think that's the wrong way to go about it. I think if I'm selling to legal, I need to have a strong point of view about legal. If you're in house and if you're in legal, I don't think the, the best path forward is necessarily having a strong point of view about legal. I think that you have to have a strong point of view about the industry that you're operating in to send a message to your business partners that you are educated, understand what they are going through. And so I think that there are layers to this. There's a way to be deliberate about it. But I would say that's the best way to become visible without being self promotional. Because now it's about the point of view, the thought leadership and not about, hey, look at me, I've just got super lawyers or something.
- [23:50]
B
And how do you do to talk about your contributions or when, I don't know when you're talking about promotions or you're talking to your boss and he doesn't know what you have been doing. So how would you Bring your contributions and to highlight the work that you have done so far.
- [24:08]
C
I can take this one and obviously would love to hear from Stacy and Jessica, but internally I would say I'm always acutely aware of our top objectives of the company and I send a weekly update on kind of what I've been executing on that's tied to those objectives. Now it helps in multiple ways. Right. Obviously the most important way I think is that it creates visibility for the other functional teams to know like, hey, what is what, what am I doing to invent to move the ball forward? But it also sends a message to my, my CEO to say, hey, Alex is focused on the right things. And so this is again outside of LinkedIn, outside of personal brand, but like just always highlighting what you're working on and having specific kind of ideas that I always go back to point of view. Like I have a very specific point of view internally and I think that a lot of people would benefit from, from having that too. And if you don't, that's fine. Just take some time to think about it and kind of let that guide kind of your communications with your bosses, your bosses, your skip levels, you know, just everyone in the organization.
- [25:02]
B
Thank you. How about you, Stacy? You said that you don't have a way of self promoting yourself internally, but do you think that you did something besides what you consciously know, like for example, keeping a record of the things that you have done, your wins, something like that?
- [25:21]
A
I mean I have done in that in the past. I used to do an annual report for the department and I realized that the leadership doesn't care, they're not looking or at least the metrics that I was using weren't super valuable to them. One thing that I've been doing similar to, you know, Alex talking about focusing on top company goals is if I have a role in that. And many times in House legal, I'm sure this resonates with the listeners here. Our work is so behind the scenes, it's so back of the house and it's really hard to show or like to kind of like, hey, I had a role in this. And so if I do have a project that is part of a larger goal, like I'll present at one of our leadership team meetings, like I will do a presentation about this is how we tackled data governance. You know, this was our role in that and I might not be the leader of it. I might partner with another one of my C Suite colleagues, like, hey, do you want to present how we've rolled out XYZ program because there is. And I interviewed Dana Lira, who's SVP at Warner Brothers. Her phrase was, nobody's going to put a tiara on your head. I mean, you do need to show what you're doing. It's just the how of doing it in a way that doesn't come across as self promotional, in a way that ties to the business goals and is something that's relevant. We're shopping a matter management system now and I've been looking at some of the reporting functions and when I told my CFO like, hey, can I get funding for this thing? It's really going to show like the output of the legal department. And she said, stacy, we know you're busy, we know you're doing a lot of work. I don't need to spend X thousands of dollars on software to show that. So it really is asking and getting feedback from those leaders to find out what do they want to know, do they care about and not just putting up your stats.
- [27:08]
B
So can I build on that? You know, you're talking about your position and I think it's more suited for your current position, which is chief legal officer, but for you to get there. What did you do when you were just another contributor?
- [27:23]
A
Well, I think I had a supervisor who was very supportive and so she would bring me to, she included me in high profile projects. She brought me to meetings with decision makers, with executives. And in those meetings I didn't just sit back in the corner and take notes like, she gave me an active role. And so you can demonstrate your worth and your value like through actually showing the work as opposed to just promoting and saying, oh, hey, I was on this panel or I did this thing, but I'm a super lawyer, like to actually be in rooms and I know all of us have those opportunities, Opportunities, no matter what level you are, if you don't, you can ask for them. You know, I will tell you, as a manager, I love when people on my team come to me and say, hey, I want to learn this or I want to lead this. Like, that gets me excited. It's really hard to be trying to allocate the work and opportunities and you don't know, do people want this? Are they overworked? Do they want to just keep doing their job? So taking an active role in your career and calling your pitch, as I like to call it, is really something that people should spend some time on.
- [28:33]
B
So next let's move to LinkedIn leadership and opportunity. Let's talk about platforms, especially LinkedIn we shared a little bit here and there, but let's focus there. How have you used LinkedIn or other tools to support your professional brand and attract new opportunities? This could include career moves, leadership invitations, or speaking opportunities. Jessica, are you ready or may we. Okay.
- [29:01]
D
Hi. How have I used LinkedIn? Yes.
- [29:04]
B
Another platforms.
- [29:05]
D
Yeah. So I would say I love LinkedIn because it's really democratized networking and raising invisibility in a world where there's no longer a dependency for someone to be my sponsor and raise awareness of my brand. So I've used LinkedIn for all of the above use cases initially, earlier on my career is to get a job and make sure that it's. It represented me to. To get a legal job of some sort, whether it be in house or working at a law firm. And those goals have evolved over. Over the years. Of my 20 years on LinkedIn, I'm like, can you be in 20 years? Like 20.
- [29:39]
B
I didn't even LinkedIn existed for.
- [29:41]
D
Existed over 20 years ago. I've been on LinkedIn for 20 years. So let's just say the first, you know, third of my 20 years on LinkedIn was to get a job. It's less so now, but it is still a platform where I am occasionally reached out to by recruiters. And then I use it as a platform as well now to really then connect with my peers. So I post a lot of content, as Alex said with that has a point of view and as you said, it also has my voice, which, you know, you may not like it, but it is certainly memorable and quirky. My voice with a point of view. And so I share a point of view and I'm able to build relationships and connect with my peers and through this platform. And then lastly, it helps me professionally. Oh, oh. She was like, that's boring, Mom. Professionally. And you heard the story of it. Helped me get this job at a startup because the CEO saw my content, saw my speaking engagement clips and said, hey, this woman has potential to do more than just legal work. Hey, the CEO of DocuSign. Hey, this woman is more than just a traditional lawyer. So we can help you professionally as well.
- [30:46]
B
Yeah. So remembering one of the our calls, I asked you if you solve more. You are a kind of a chimera between a salesperson and a legal person. I think the company benefited from your public Persona. Did you get any benefit out of it?
- [31:04]
A
Were you compensated?
- [31:05]
D
Not enough, Christina. Not enough is what I'll say.
- [31:09]
B
Thank you. How about you, Alex?
- [31:11]
C
I was going to say as someone who used to work for a competitor of Jessica's. I would also agree that Jessica was not compensated enough because she had such a big impact. I'm not in that space anymore. But, you know, I've long been an admirer on the LinkedIn question. I think you just never know who's out there reading. And so it's a great opportunity for you to use comments, which is what I do. Sometimes I leak comments so that it will be read. Having a point of view helps, but sometimes I use now I will comment things, I will post things knowing that it will be read by my colleagues. And those are the people I'm trying to influence. It's not necessarily for sale, it's just send a message. But I think the key takeaway is that whatever you do on LinkedIn, there's a lot of people watching and especially if you're putting out really quality content. Like, I remember how I met Stacy because Stacy was putting out such great podcasts and I was like, I need to get to know this person. I need to get them on my podcast for my company. And so I feel like we often don't realize how many people are watching. And I don't mean that to be in a scary way, but like, if you all, I don't know how many of you have Facebook or Instagram for your personals. Like, I'm always surprised when I see long friends I haven't seen for years and they suddenly are up to speed on some random detail in my life. I'm like, how do you know that? Oh, right, I posted a picture of my kids. That's right. So like, in the same way you can leverage that for your professional life, I think LinkedIn is the perfect place for that.
- [32:32]
B
And how about TikTok? What's the difference between TikTok and LinkedIn? I don't even know what TikTok is. I just heard the name.
- [32:40]
C
TikTok is a very special place where people make funny videos. Also lip syncing videos. I don't really use it too much these days. I do think that there is an ebb and flow of it. I use LinkedIn less now because I think I'm more interested in the professional audience. TikTok tends to have a younger audience, more fun audience, and it's good for a lot of different things. But LinkedIn is unparalleled for professional reasons.
- [33:04]
B
So LinkedIn incorporated a feature to show reels and videos. Are you, are you moving away those videos from TikTok to LinkedIn?
- [33:12]
C
You know, I did that for a while. I would repost my TikToks on LinkedIn and that was the primary, like where I got the most value. I don't know the details of the algorithm, to be honest with you. I don't know what's favored or not favored. I would always go back and say, hey, don't try to chase the latest thing, but just make sure, hey, what I'm understand what your goals are and again, have a point of view. And Even if only 10 people see it instead of 10,000, maybe those 10 people are closing CEOs, so that's far more valuable.
- [33:40]
B
Thank you. How about you, Stacy?
- [33:42]
A
Well, I have a lot to say about LinkedIn and first of all, Alex, thank you so much for the shout out for the legal department podcast. And I'll just note, like the three of us, Jessica, Alex and I are connected because of LinkedIn, because we saw each other on LinkedIn and I have no business to be in DocuSign. I, I'm a customer, very happy with it, but I'm not in that tech space and thrilled just to be able to know Jessica and learn from her. And likewise with Alex. I'll just say, even if you don't want to be a content creator and post a lot, optimizing your LinkedIn profile is table stakes if you want to work in this day and age. So I'm going to direct you to episode 11 of the legal department podcast where I interviewed Heather Fine and Adina Beasley of Major Lindsay in Africa. And they talked about if they go, they can't find a candidate on LinkedIn. If a candidate doesn't have a picture or an updated profile, they move on like they are. People ask me all the time, well, how do you get recruiters to Notice you? This LinkedIn is the first place people go, so you gotta have that updated. In terms of being posting, I think you need to know what you want to do. I agree with Alex. Like having a point of view, having a perspective that you want to put out there is something you should try. I was very, very nervous about it as I was, you know, like all of us. I think, Christina, when we talked in prep, as the representative of the company, you want to make sure that you're not saying anything that's going to damage your company or, you know, and we've all dealt with employment lawsuits and you look through social media and see what the weird or offensive thing people are saying is. But it really is sort of the town hall, the town square of our time professionally. And I just encourage people to get over that. Initial apprehension and get out there.
- [35:35]
B
Hmm. Yeah, that's true. So what came first? Was it your podcast or LinkedIn or both the same time?
- [35:42]
A
Well, I had started. I was. So I'm. I mean, not to take you down the whole road of the Legal Department podcast, but I had lived in LA for about 20 years and had a really vibrant network and we moved to Santa Barbara, which is lovely. I'm not going to trash talk Santa Barbara, but it's very, it's a lot of retired people, there's not a lot of lawyers here. And so I felt very isolated and I was looking at LinkedIn as a way to get out, quote out there. So I started posting some healthcare topics and that's a area I'm passionate about. But it does impact my organization. And so I felt that the legal space was a little safer or I could be more free and exploring more topics there without the risk of impacting my organization. And the podcast became a great way to do that. And I would say from the service mindset, like, I am putting out podcasts, I don't make money from this, although I did just get a sponsor. I'm very excited about that. But I put it out to benefit in house counsel. Like I am trying to help people level up their career and so that's what it's about. And my posting is all in that spirit.
- [36:50]
B
Thank you. Now, since we are in SOCA committee, we need to move and mention this brand during career transitions. Let's talk about personal brand during career transitions. Can you please share how has your personal brand supported you through changes like promotions, job shifts or stepping into leadership roles? Jessica, do you want to start first?
- [37:15]
D
Yeah, well, a couple things. It was because of my personal brand on LinkedIn as well as other channels, but mostly LinkedIn that I got my job at Lexion, which was the startup that was acquired by DocuSign. So in general, I now view LinkedIn not as a job recruitment tool for myself, even though that's still a core function of LinkedIn, it is now my relationship like my connection tool. Clearly I don't get out much because I have a five and a half month old baby and I'm not fun. So like you, Christina, I don't use TikTok. My husband calls it a Chinese spy machine because he's in cybercrime. So he also doesn't allow me. So even though I some hot moves, I do not have TikTok videos. So in terms of like LinkedIn now it's a relationship device so I can build relationships with the Stacy's and Alex, even I, we've never met in person. Stacy, we got to change that. But we engage in content with one another. I listen to her content, she reads my content. And so when I'm in the middle of a transition, I actually feel comfortable now reaching out to some of the contacts that I've made on LinkedIn to let them know, hey, I'm looking for a role or I need some help or can you make an introduction? So again, I got that role at Lexion through LinkedIn. I reached out to the CTO. His name is Ahmad Awani. He was an engineer for my Microsoft Outlook and I was a Microsoft lawyer. And I was like, I reached out to him and I just asked for the job. So Stacy, like you're saying about just asking for what you want from your management team as you for your career development, I just asked for the job that I want. I always say closed mouth, don't get fed. I learned it from someone in sales, Alex. I have a lot of respect for sales. And the second thing too is like even my job at PayScale, it was my first general counsel job. I was stuck as senior counsel attorney at Microsoft. It is impossible. It takes forever to get promoted at these giant corporations unless you have a strong advocate of a manager who knows how to play the game. Yeah. So I didn't want to do that. And so what I did was I saw this opening for a job opening on pace for a payscale to build the legal department. I saw that the hiring manager was a cfo. I was okay with pouring the CFO because it was my first GC gig. And I saw that he was connected to a CEO that I met at a wedding and we partied together. Yeah, that's how, that's my profession of connection. Party together at a wedding. I'm like, Kabir, can you introduce me to the cfo? And he was like happy to because he knew I knew how to party, I knew how to legal. So he made that introduction and I had this coffee and hit it off with the CFO. So yes, LinkedIn is very, very instrumental in those relationships and those connections.
- [39:46]
B
Thank you. So during the prep call, you mentioned how you remain in the on your current role. Do you want to. Do you feel comfortable sharing it or am I being pushy?
- [39:58]
D
Remain in my current role. Can you clarify?
- [40:00]
B
Yeah. Remember when you moved from your former employer to DocuSign? So you mentioned something about you being a line item in the cost center.
- [40:10]
D
Yeah, well, that was where I belonged. Right. That was my function at Lexion was I was also managing the legal team on top of helping the brand and generating pipeline as Alex so admired from a competitor. But. And that's okay. So I'm still in the legal department of DocuSign and it's because of my LinkedIn related profile combined with my relationships with the executive team that I've committed to stay, actually. So the, the DocuSign I'll share DocuSign team was initially going to give me a role and I was going to say, no, thank you. I was going to take the summer off and focus on my health, my mental health, my physical health, and maybe having a baby. I was like, can I still have a baby? I'm not a spring chicken anymore. Happened and they made me an offer that was compelling and spent the time to get to know me. So I report down to the chief legal officer, Jim Shaughnessy of DocuSign. He's a great manager, advocate of mine and that's why I said yes, because I wanted to work with him. Oh, she said, that's so boring, Mom. I'm going to go on mute.
- [41:09]
B
Thank you. How about you, Alex?
- [41:12]
C
By the way, Jessica, we cannot hear hurt all. Or at least I can't. Maybe my hearing's going. Zoom is so good at filtering out the noises. But to answer your question, Christina, I think echo everything Jessica said and I think for me, your personal brand and I would extend that beyond LinkedIn is such a great way to extend beyond your current job. So maybe you want to make a pivot. Maybe you want to get promoted. There's a way to shape your experiences that make it attractive to people who would hire you or promote you. What I did specifically was there was a period of time where I felt, hey, making TikToks and funny video skits is fun, but I want to have an actual leadership role. And so what I did was I started writing about everything that I experienced and my thoughts about sales and marketing. And by doing that, I think it got read by the right people. A lot of CEOs started reading it. And so that's how I started having conversations to be part of different companies. So for all of you who are either at a job or you want to do something different, there are ways to share your expertise with the world that makes you attractive for that, for that next step or that next pivot.
- [42:14]
B
Thank you. How about you, Stacy?
- [42:17]
A
Well, it kind of goes back to what we kicked off with, which was knowing what your brand is and what you're trying to sell. The Next employer is really important. So those three things that I always say about myself, that I'm authentic, creative and steady. Like I work those in to my resume, I work them into my interview answers. So knowing who you are and how you want to show up in that next role I think is really important. And I'll also just go back. I saw there's a question in the chat about traditional quote networking or promotional opportunities, if that's still relevant. And I'll just say in another role that I had, a colleague was really noticed by the senior executives because they had been a state bar president. I mean, I don't know Jessica, if when you're thinking about other lawyers or in house lawyers, if you're, I mean state bar service is very noble. But I don't necessarily think, oh, that that person's a great lawyer because they're the state bar president. But it was super impressive to the C suite team. Like that was that brand like from a non lawyer's perspective, they thought that somebody serving in a state bar leadership role was an imprimatur of that person's competency and skill. So don't short shrift those traditional roles like nonprofit service, bar service and speaking and writing.
- [43:39]
D
I love that you mentioned that, Stacy, because one of my favorite professional stories about myself is that I actually it's kind of cringy that I have so many legal awards to legal people, but it's not cringy to the CEOs and the investors that look at my profile and be like, it builds credibility with folks who are outside of legal and maybe within legal as well because they know that the awards are not pay to play. So don't overlook those awards. And so I'm nominated by others for those awards. But my very first professional award was top under 40. No longer under 40, by the way, but one of those Business Journal under 40. And I was nominated by the CFO of PayScale at the time. And I volun told him to do it. Like he's not tracking awards and deadlines. I said, mark, I've worked my tail off for this organization. You obviously gave me a promotion motion. You agree you are going to nominate me for this best under 40 award. He was like, he looked at me, laughed and said, yes ma'.
- [44:33]
B
Am.
- [44:34]
D
So he said, yes ma'. Am. So he did that. In 2018, I did get that award and then it became an escalating thing where I got more and more legal awards. So don't be afraid to do that if you're comfortable with that.
- [44:47]
B
Thank you all. So we now have time for a few audience questions. I'll turn it over to Jessica Guillet to guide us through the Q and A. Hi, everyone.
- [44:57]
D
Thank you so much. Christina, Stacy, Alex, Jessica, we are learning so much from each of you, and unfortunately, for some reason, I can't get on camera here, but we have a few more questions to ask. During one of our calls, we discussed whether we define ourselves as introverts or extroverts. Jessica, you shared that you are an introverted person.
- [45:23]
C
Person.
- [45:23]
D
Would you tell us your journey as an introverted person in building your brand and the public exposure you have? Yeah, Well, I think before I dive into that is how it's how you define introvertedness is. Is where you get your energy from. So I always tell my friends when I say I actually identify as introvert, they're like, shh. You're like the loudest person I know. And I said volume does not equivalent equivocate to extrovert or introvert. You can be loud and like people. And being introverted, I am just exhausted after going to conferences or dinners or parties afterwards. I don't know if that's perimenopause or my introvertedness. I think it's a little bit of both, honestly. But how I have had to just adjust to that is I go to these events with intentionality to meet people. I send moments to recharge I don't go to. After our parties, I turn to a pumpkin roughly 9:30 to 10:00pm but that's. That's a secret, folks. And it turns out, though, you can be an introvert on LinkedIn and it's cool. Like, you're just writing content on LinkedIn or this webinar is a finite one hour and I'm done. That's right, and then you'll turn into your pumpkin. All right, Stacy, you shared that the feeling of isolation prompted you to build your podcast. Could you please share this experience with our audience?
- [46:39]
A
Well, I talked about it a little bit, so it is not a linear, logical way. It really is a lot harder than I thought it was. And had I known all that's involved in doing it, I don't know if I would at the time, but I had been a guest on the Portia Project podcast, which is a podcast that highlights female women and judges. It's a friend of mine, MC Sangayla, who does that show. And I loved the connection. Like, we had just the conversation. And the way you connect in a podcast is. So these days, where we're all so distracted with our phones. And people have their phones at dinner tables. Like, you don't get a lot of really deep, focused conversations anymore. And that experience really lit me up. And she made it seem easy. And so I kind of followed in her footsteps, used her production company and started reaching out to folks who I really respect and who were part of my network and just started doing it, quite frankly. And my goal wasn't. People are always ask me how many downloads or whatever, like, I'm not selling anything. It honestly doesn't matter If I have 102,000. It does, really. Like, I don't get anything out of it. So it's just, for me, has been the process of, as I said, building those connections, relationships. Alex. Sue was on my podcast talking about how legal can work with sales. That's one of my most popular episodes. And I'm just. It's just been really helpful and for me not to feel as isolated here in lovely Santa Barbara.
- [48:05]
D
Absolutely. Alex, you shared that you have learned to adapt your brand to different roles. Could you please share this experience with us?
- [48:13]
C
Sure. Yeah. So I mentioned earlier, when I first got started, I was trying to make. Establish myself as a salesperson. And then that second point, I started making funny videos to establish myself as someone who understood legal. And in the next iteration, I try to establish myself as an executive, which that's what I'm trying to do right now. And, you know, I don't know that I have any wisdom to share, although I do think that I learned a few lessons. Sometimes our brands create this momentum where it's easier to get to further your existing brand whether you like it or not. So it takes a lot of thoughtful and deliberate action to change it. So it reminds me of, like, the analogy I always use is like, if you think of famous actors or actresses, you think, oh, that's somebody I see in funny movies, or that's somebody in a rom com. There are actors and actresses who have done this effectively, and very often they start small and then build it over time when they want to make a pivot. So I would say that I've tried to adapt to that approach where you can't change your brand or adapt your brand immediately, especially if you're. The thing that you're known for is so different than the thing you want to be known for. But I think there are baby steps that you can take to do that, and it certainly is possible for all of us, as unlikely as it may seem. Like, you can ask my friends that I grew up with, they will be very surprised to hear that. I make TikToks. That's not my thing. But whenever I see them, they make fun of me. They're like, could you imagine that you'd be known for this? I'm like, no, but I made one video one time and it took off. So I think that's a lesson for many people who want to change the way that they're perceived.
- [49:47]
D
Absolutely. Here's a question from one of our audience. I've been told that future legal leaders will be using typical networking channels less frequently for information and instead will be relying on AI such as ChatGPT for referrals and information. So branding efforts on typical networking channels will be less influential. What do you think? And that could be for any of you. I think what ChatGPT is great at is summarizing information generally on the Interweb. Right. And then so rather than having me go to read a gartner report or G2 or scour something for information, that's what OpenAI and ChatGPT and all those tools are great for. It doesn't replace trust, though. So if I'm gonna like pick a law firm, I'm still gonna go to my go to peers to ask for that law firm. If I'm gonna pick a law a tool. I know, Stacy, you're looking for a matter management tool. I'm going to ask you, Stacy, hey, I'm going to look at matter management tools too. Can you like, what is your short list? I'm going to trust Stacy a heck of a lot more than what the Interweb says, which is all based on marketing collateral of those various vendors. So I would have to say that I would disagree on the certain use cases if what I want is something that's been on trust, trust and judgment.
- [51:01]
A
And I'm sorry, everyone, I have to go be a general counsel now. But thank you so much for this opportunity. Acc Christina, you did a great job moderating Alex and Jessica is always great to see you in the in our IRL virtual or on LinkedIn. Thank you so much.
- [51:16]
B
Thank you, Stacy.
- [51:18]
D
Thank you, everyone. All right, I believe that is all the time that we have. It is one o'.
- [51:23]
B
Clock.
- [51:23]
D
Thank you all for joining us. Thank you again, Alex, Stacey, Jessica and Christina for moderating ACC SoCal work. Betty St. Marie coordinating this. Thank you.
- [51:33]
B
Thanks for having you.
- [51:34]
C
Thanks for having us. See you soon.
- [51:39]
A
Hey, thanks for joining me today in the legal department. If you like the show, would you please follow like and subscribe. That helps other listeners to find the show, and if you're really inspired, you can rate and review on Apple, Spotify or anywhere you get podcasts. For more information about the show, check out our website, legaldepartmentpod.com Thanks.