Contracting In The #Creator Economy: Brittany Ratelle, Ratelle Law [E85]

Summary

The Legal Department – Episode 85

Contracting In The #Creator Economy: Brittany Ratelle, Ratelle Law
Host: Stacy Bratcher | Guest: Brittany Ratelle | Air Date: January 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Stacy Bratcher, General Counsel and Chief Legal Officer, welcomes Brittany Ratelle, an attorney specializing in legal support for creators and small businesses in the creator economy. Together, they dive deep into the unique legal and practical considerations of contracting with influencers and creators, how these differ from traditional talent arrangements, and what both brands and creators need to know about successfully navigating deals in a rapidly changing digital landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining the Creator Economy vs. Traditional Talent

• Creators as Hybrids: Brittany explains that creators often act as their own writers, producers, editors, and distributors, unlike traditional “talent” who may only perform one part of the value chain.
  • "Most creators, what they bring to the table is...they are not only bringing the distribution...but also the creative. So it's a little bit of like you're hiring the production, the script writer, the editor, the prop master." — Brittany [01:42]
• Shift from Legacy Models: Early creator contracts were adapted from models used for actors or models but have since evolved. Creators now have a stronger position and own their intellectual property (IP).

2. Understanding UGC and Influencer Partnerships

• User Generated Content (UGC): Ratelle distinguishes UGC creators, who typically produce content "for hire" without offering distribution to their own followers.
  • "UGC stands for user Generated content. This is a subclass of creators that basically specialize in...we're just good at filming stuff, we're good at editing stuff." — Brittany [02:42]
• Influencers vs. UGC Creators: Brands may collaborate with either or both, depending on goals like distribution to an influencer's audience versus acquiring high-quality creative assets for brand channels.

3. Key Negotiation Points in Creator Contracts

• Ownership and Licensing:
  • Creators now expect to own their IP and license it to brands, rather than assign ownership through "work made for hire".
  • “Creators own their IP, but brands get a license. And the strength and the scope of that license is what's being negotiated.” — Brittany [07:14]
• Usage, Whitelisting, and Exclusivity:
  • Terms for how long and where brands can use content, and for what purpose, are a major lever in negotiations.
  • Exclusivity is typically limited and comes at a premium price.
• Morals Clauses:
  • Essential in contracts, these allow for termination or other remedies if either party’s reputation is harmed by the other's conduct.
  • Ratelle strongly advocates for mutual morals clauses due to the potential for reversal (e.g., brands experiencing scandals).
  • “Morals clauses should go both ways…I call it the Balenciaga clause.” — Brittany [11:28]

4. Speed and Risk in the Creator Economy

• Agility is Key: The necessity for brands and their legal teams to act quickly in the creator space—slow approval and committee decision-making can sabotage campaign opportunities or crisis responses.
• Risk Tolerance: In-house lawyers must accept a higher level of risk compared to traditional marketing, balancing speed with legal protection.
  • “Whatever speed that you think you need to be working at...you likely need to move faster.” — Brittany [15:31]

5. Structuring Deals and Deliverables

• Creative Control: Successful brand/creator collaborations allow creators significant freedom, avoiding over-scripting.
  • "The biggest mistake that I see brands making is they over-manage and they over-script and they do not let the creator do their thing." — Brittany [20:08]
• Package Deals: Deliverables will vary by platform; e.g., TikTok videos, Instagram Stories, YouTube integrations, podcasts (pre-roll, mid-roll, post-roll).
  • On YouTube, ad content often persists for the life of the video; dynamic ad insertion is an emerging, but not-yet-widespread, technology. [24:03-26:38]

6. Pricing and Valuing Creator Partnerships

• Market Rates are Elusive: There’s no universal “rate card”; creator pricing depends on niche, audience size, engagement rate, and exclusivity.
  • Tools like Fu Payme function as “Glassdoor for creator deals” to help benchmark rates. [27:58]
• Engagement Rate is Key: Brands value regular viewer engagement over raw follower counts—engagement better predicts ROI for sponsored content.
  • “That’s even more important than followers… because it’s not about how many people at one point clicked a button, it’s how many people watch your stuff regularly.” — Brittany [30:09]

7. Best Practices and Practical Guidance

• Strong Selection Process is Crucial: Ensuring brand/creator alignment in values, tone, and audience prevents issues that can’t be solved by contract.
• Don’t Treat Creators as Order-Takers: Long-term, mutually beneficial relationships can arise if brands are open to collaboration and feedback.
  • “I've even seen people…bring in a creator as almost like a product manager or product advisor…that can really be a win for both sides.” — Brittany [34:32]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Moral Clauses:
  • “Morals clauses should go both ways…Because just like I as a creator could do something embarrassing or controversial…the brand, I could hear next week that they are running sweatshops overseas and they can have some huge scandal.” — Brittany [11:28]
• On the Need for Speed:
  • “The creator economy, things move very quickly...You cannot have a committee system where you're taking weeks to approve stuff…because that's simply not going to work.” — Brittany [15:27]
• On Creative Freedom:
  • “You need to let the creator do what they do best, which is to create. The biggest mistake…is to over-manage and over-script.” — Brittany [20:08]
• On Pricing:
  • “Some [creators] believe and have a media kit and have set pricing…some are like, ‘No, what are your goals, what do you want to do with this, what's your budget?’” — Brittany [27:58]

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Important Timestamps

• 01:42 – Difference between creators and traditional talent
• 02:42 – What is UGC vs. influencer deals
• 07:14 – Creators owning IP and negotiating licenses
• 11:28 – The “Balenciaga clause” and moral clauses’ mutuality
• 15:27 – Risk tolerance and speed in the modern creator economy
• 20:08 – Creative control and avoiding over-management
• 24:03-26:38 – Structuring deliverables by platform and ad insertion innovations
• 27:58 – Tools and resources for assessing market rates and pricing
• 30:09 – The primacy of engagement rate over follower counts
• 34:32 – Advice for GCs: open-mindedness, and creators as long-term partners

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Resources Mentioned

• Fu Payme: https://fupayme.app/ — A “Glassdoor for creators” (tool for benchmarking compensation).
• Leah Haberman’s Newsletter: "In Case You Missed It (ICYMI)" — Weekly digest on creator economy news and best practices.
• UCLA’s Lia Haberman — Adjunct professor and creator-economy expert mentioned as a go-to industry resource.

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Parting Advice for Legal Professionals

Brittany encourages in-house counsel to remain open-minded and collaborative, viewing creators as more than just service providers. Building longer-term, genuine partnerships benefits both brand and creator, particularly when feedback is welcomed and creators are empowered to influence product improvements and campaign direction.

“Try to not think of this person as an order taker or as just someone who films something…Instead, the better creators will be the real human who have crafted a really good job of getting people's attention and having authentic connection…see what you can do to learn from them.” — Brittany [34:32]

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Fun Closers

• Brittany’s Pump-Up Song: "Fantasy" by Mariah Carey [36:44]
• Stacy’s Choice: "Independent Woman" by Destiny’s Child [36:28]

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For more info and resources, visit legaldepartmentpod.com

Transcript

[A]

My name is Brittany Rittell. I am a creator attorney, and you can usually find me rocking out in my minivan or reading ridiculous fantasy romance novels.

[B]

Welcome to the legal Department, a podcast for lawyers who want to learn, connect, and grow their careers. I'm Stacy Bratcher. I'm a general counsel and I'm excited to share these conversations to help you level up in house. On today's episode of the Legal Department, I'm excited to welcome Brittany Rittell. She's a creator attorney that supports small business developers in the creative space, and her company is called Retell Law. We're going to be talking about doing deals with creators. Either you are at a brand and engaging with influencers and creators, or you're a creator yourself like me and trying to get some free legal advice. So thanks for being here.

[A]

Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Stacey.

[B]

So I reached out to you. You know, I've been looking for a guest who can talk about the creator side. You know, there's a lot. Most of my audience is in house, folks, as we've talked before, and I know that it's a pain point. It's a new world, although it's. It's, you know, we're advancing, but it's a new world where we're shifting from traditional advertising and talent to the creator economy, where anyone in a guest room can, you know, turn on a camera, turn on their Instagram, and start building their own network. So. So I wanted to just kind of set the stage with, you know, you've been in this space for a long time. How is, you know, working with influencers and creators different than working with traditional talent?

[A]

Mm, great question. So, you know, I think in the beginning it maybe didn't look that different. And in fact, you know, when I started reviewing these contracts 10 years ago, before we even had the word creator, before we even had the word influencer, a lot of these deals even use legacy contracts. And you could see that it was just literally the word talent. And it looked like you were getting someone to do a model or like for a commercial or whatever. But most creators, what they bring to the table is they really see themselves as a hybrid business where they are not only bringing the distribution, meaning they have an audience and they're going to, you know, syndicate their content, wherever that is on their channels, but also the creative. Right. So it's a little bit of like you're hiring the production, the script writer, the editor, the prop master, the costume

[B]

master, the one stop shop.

[A]

Exactly. And you're getting the Distribution. Now for people who do like ugc, meaning User Generated content deals, what you're really, you're only getting the creative, they're not offering you distribution. That's not their special sauce.

[B]

But okay, let's talk about what is ugc.

[A]

Yeah, so UGC stands for user Generated content. And this is a subclass of creators that basically specialize in. We are going to. We're just good at filming stuff, we're good at editing stuff. This is where you see a lot of like, especially product based companies like CPG Brands might get someone on TikTok or Facebook or Instagram. So like unboxing or like unboxing and like ASMR content. Like you know that cute edited stuff you see where people organizing, you know, their bathroom doors and clickety clackity, that's ugc, you know.

[B]

Okay. And so a creator might just be into. Let's just go with drawer organizing, which you know, I've got a kid who loves that and this is great that there's a career track for her. So I build an audience organizing my drawer and filming it. And then how might I partner with a brand on that? Like.

[A]

Yeah, so it could be anyone from the people who sell the organizing tool. So think of drawer dividers or slippy pads or silicone stuff to the items that go in there, there. Right. So any of the products that might go in there or you will go even higher upstream and you know it's a general Amazon and you've got your affiliate for lots of those products. Right. But usually UGC creators, their specialty is they create the content and then they just sell it and it's usually for a lower price point. So it's a volume game. Right. Or for a lot of people it's a side hustle. And then they will approach or they'll be even part of a program a lot of these companies have. You can sign up and then we'll kind of put out bids for projects or you can, you could submit and then you just get paid for whatever it is.

[B]

So like if I was just. I need you to slow down just a little bit cause I am like a sponge here. So if I was a company, if I was an in house lawyer representing a company that produced the drawer organizers, right. What you're saying is our marketing team might say like hey, we can really sell these organizers if we work with influencers who are filming their drawer organizing videos.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So are you saying that the brands are actually looking for those people?

[A]

Sometimes, yeah. Especially if they need ad for like you know, creative for ad. Right. You know, like, you know, if you're. We just want better. You know, we have holiday season Q4 coming up. We're going to run a lot of ads. Sometimes it's where you maybe ran something before it performed really well. And so now you're going to just want more of you the creator.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so yeah, so in that now look for hey, how can, how can we have this? Right. Yeah.

[B]

So in that standpoint it is something that sort of, let's just call it ready made or like is the UGC sort of like it's already kind of its own concept versus something different where a bespoke where you know, I'm a beauty influencer and now Summer Fridays wants to use my audience to promote their lip gloss.

[A]

Yeah. And say a traditional influencer creator does both of it and what you're buying is access and it's usually for a very structured period of time. And so like a traditional creator deal that I would review for a client would say, hey, we're going to have. You're going to get two tickets TikTok videos, 30 second spots each, maybe one mention in an email newsletter and three story slides. Right. That's kind of would be a traditional package Right across a couple different channels. It's going to be $20,000. The brand's going to get a chance to use it for 30 days and so they can put it on their social media channels for 30 days usage. And then after that we're going to see. And if the brand wants to come back and their marketing team goes, oh my gosh, guys, that hit it hit our conversions were so high. This is exactly what we wanted. Then they'll come back to the table. And sometimes that rate is already in the contract, sometimes it's not. And it'll just be an email negotiation. Right. And in terms of now we can do other things, maybe boosting or whitelisting which is basically where they're going to put ad money and behind this ad. And it's going to run in people's stories, but it's going to be my face because I'm the influencer coming up on it. And it's.

[B]

But the brand uses their infrastructure to push it out.

[A]

Yes. And their, and their money to buy ad time. Right on Meta.

[B]

So, so let's break this down. So like I'm thinking if you were, let's just Summer Friday since that's a little more current. If they, you know, back in the day maybe they would have ads in US Weekly Or People or kind of that Seventeen magazine that like, you know, kids would be. Their target audience would be reading and they'd hire an agency to develop the campaign and they would own that content. Right.

[A]

Like when you.

[B]

But what's different now that, you know, I'm in my guest room, you know, filming myself trying on the lip gloss. How is that?

[A]

How with my cute set with my ring light, getting my Getting ready with me video, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So how are those? The big difference is most of the time the creators own their ip. You know, in the beginning days in the in contracting world, this is a lot more up in the air and a lot more individual negotiation and pushback of. It's pretty much well settled now. Creators own their ip, but brands get a license. And the strength and the scope of that license is obviously what's being negotiated. And that's why those terms in the contract about usage, whitelisting, boosting term exclusivity are usually the big leverage in negotiations.

[B]

Okay, so let's talk through all of that because that's what I'm thinking. If I'm in house at summer Fridays and you know, I want to work with Brittany because she's got this great beauty brand following. If I came from, you know, General Mills Foods, where I'm used to like having an advertising campaign, I might be surprised that that Britney feels like it's her ip. And so you're saying that creators owning their IP is a market term?

[A]

Yes, very market term. They feel very strongly about it. So at this point, I'm not saying never, but if you were going to ask for that, which you know, we consider a work made for hire, it's going to be a very, very big price point and likely something that's more of like a brand ambassador relationship or an ongoing or something else to that level where you've paid for that. But if it's a, you know, a one off campaign and hey, we just, we really like your vibe. We're, you know, we're a makeup company and we want to do a deal with you next month. We think your audience would be a good fit. If I was the talent manager or a lawyer, you know, we're doing this contract. My starting point would be that we own our IP and we're giving you a license.

[B]

Yeah. So for the in house folks or folks that are on the brand side, let's not have that fight because the creator. Okay, that's sort of a market term. Now what about. Cause one thing you mentioned, license. And so the term is going to be like, basically how long the brand can use the content on the other side of the coin. Cause this is something I would think about as an in house attorney can that creator. Is the expectation of the creator that they can use that content beyond my campaign. So if it was a 30 day campaign and my video was awesome, that lipstick looked great. Is the creator's expectation that they could continue running that ad without sort of highlighting the brand? They could use it, clip it, whatever,

[A]

that the brand could use it or.

[B]

No, no, no. That the creator. That the creator.

[A]

So the creator, yeah. Most of the time in these deals I give creators the option but not the obligation. And so what I give them is I can keep it up because say there's other pieces in that maybe I'm wearing a cute outfit. It's. There's something else that there's other value.

[B]

I'm drinking a Starbucks coffee. I want to.

[A]

It was really funny because I'm a humor creator and there's comedy and this is hitting my audience and they like it and they're sharing it. My engagement's really good. I want the option to keep it up, but not the obligation. Because if whatever, it's not hitting or it wasn't received that well or I'm kind of changing my vibe and trying to steer my audience in a different direction, I want to be able to, to go and archive something if I want to.

[B]

Well, so from the brand perspective, one thing I could foresee is let's say that creator, you know, they had one Persona and a good vibe and then they got into something that did not align with my brand. And so after our 30 day or whatever campaign period, they started continue to run the ad and portrayed my product. My product is all of a sudden associated with somebody who's, you know, vibe is not aligned with my brand. What are the guardrails around that?

[A]

What recourse do you have? Yeah, that you'd probably have to look to the morals clause. But if I was arguing and negotiating, you know, for my talent, I would say that's limited to the term of the campaign. I wouldn't give that an open ended of, hey, three years later my creator client has gone in a different direction, is creating different content and I have to go back and scrub all my channels from work that I did years ago, you know, but I mean you

[B]

do see that happen where you know, somebody had certain, you know, vibe or Persona online and then they went in a controversial direction or something that does not align with the brand. And then the brand sort of Gets tainted with whoever that person is showing up at the moment.

[A]

No, no, absolutely. And I would say that, you know something that I feel really strongly about that I'm constantly redlining in agreements is I make those clauses mutual because I feel like that street runs both ways. Because I call it like the Balenciaga clause.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because just like I as a creator could do something embarrassing or controversial and because I'm a human and I can make choices and the Internet lives forever in context and is sometimes hard. Right. Especially in social media. The brand, I could hear next week that they are running sweatshops overseas and they can have some huge scandal. And guess what? I don't want to have this big ad running to my audience, my people, that this trust and this is currency I have is their trust and attention. And so yeah, really, at a minimum, morals clauses should go both ways. Okay, well, let's really. Yeah. And really be limited, you know, and not like really generalized any reputation harm. I like to let be more specific. Yeah, A little bit more specific to like demonstrable, like where they.

[B]

Okay, well, let's take a pause for a second. I want to, you know, catch our audience up with what is a morals clause? What can you expect in this kind of a context where again, you're a creator? As you said, it's so different than any, you know, I'm even thinking of like if you had a, you know, with a celebrity, I think that the creator is so different because as you said, they're so connected to the audience and that trust that they have is really, really their biggest asset. So what is a morals clause and what can you expect from those for these creators?

[A]

Yeah. So a moral clause is a pretty standard term, a clause in any entertainment agreement or really public facing partnership between two parties. And it basically says if one of the parties does something that would harm the reputation of the other party. Right. So party B acts out, makes a choice that could reflect negatively on party A. Party A has various remedies, Right. And some of those are termination of the contract. Sometimes they're damages. Sometimes it's a clawback of any money that's been paid. Sometimes it's specific performance. Right. Of actual apology or something else or make good. Right. And so those are all different ways that a morals clause could be structured. So. And like I said, you know, I realize you usually can't delete these totally from an agreement and I understand that brands are worried about this. Right. I always try to put myself in that shoes because I've also been on the other side and negotiated for brand partners that are trying to get into this space and want to know or hey, we're new at setting up an influencer marketing program. How do we handle this? How do we be a good steward and a good partner in the space that we don't look like a fool here, but it needs to be reasonable with the risk. Right.

[B]

The takedown though, because you mentioned, like creators aren't going to want to go through their channels and remove content. But I mean, I'm thinking about if I had a relationship with, not me, Stacy, but me, you know, in a GC role. If our company had a relationship and that did not all of a sudden reflect well on our brand, we would immediately want that party to take down. But you're saying that that's not a reasonable expectation.

[A]

I mean, I would say there's some time limit. I would say sometimes I see in there, you know, a morals clause can extend for a few months past the term. Probably the most I've ever seen is like one to two years. I rarely see and would likely redline and open ended forever. Right.

[B]

In perpetuity because it's just too much for the creator. If they're prolific, it's just too hard to.

[A]

And I would argue from a creative perspective, I'm like, you know, I make so much content. Like no one even sees that anymore. That's like way down in.

[B]

They don't see it unless as you said. Well, and you know, let's just use the Balenciaga example because we can take it from the creator standpoint. And you want to just refresh everybody about what happened with that brand.

[A]

Yeah. So there was a photo shoot that became very controversial because some of the subject matter in it. And so it was a high fashion photo shoot. And so some of the parties that were involved with it specifically Kim Kardashian kind of delayed and didn't distance themselves, you know. And so. And then there was a huge.

[B]

And it was like, it wasn't it like a. They were sexualized. Accused of sexualizing children.

[A]

Teddy bears sexualized. There was some BDSM references in there. So obviously you very. Yeah. Very controversial. Right. And so people were saying, hey, this is ridiculous. And you know, to mix that together with what looks like a children's article, which is the teddy bear and a children's toy. And so there were calls for her to take it down, but she kind of delayed. Like there was a period of there when the team probably needed to act really quickly. And I will say that's probably A big takeaway if there's someone who's a GC who's going into the space is that creator economy. Things move very quickly, social media moves very quickly. And so whatever speed that you think you need to be working at in terms of approvals, reviewing accounts, reviewing where the tenor and the temperature of an audience comment section is, you likely need to move faster than you think. So that may mean getting a smaller team or a team that has more coverage or whatever, but you cannot have a committee system where you're taking weeks to approve stuff or whatever because that's simply not going to work. You're going to have to. Or even for a positive side, like look at the Stanley. Did you ever see the Stanley cup where there was a person who had a car fire and it was car was completely destroyed and one of the only things that was okay inside was the Stanley cup because it's made out of metal and. But this video went viral and Stanley, because they're smart, they immediately connected with this person and helped buy her a new vehicle, right? And then that good news went viral. But think of the Stanley team was operating on a legacy model, was slow, didn't even see that comment, let alone let's have some meetings, let's talk about it, whatever. The moment is gone. The moment came in the way and you were sitting on your fanny, right. And so you gotta just be able to move faster and deal with a little bit more risk, which I know is not what anyone on the corporate side wants to hear, but that's the way that these games are.

[B]

Well, let's dig in on that because I think that this is a common in house learning curve for folks that you have to get comfortable with a certain degree of risk. And what you're saying is in the creator space, it's on steroids that it moves so quickly. You have to be able to get in the moment and grip it and rip it basically. And so I'd like to understand what are those terms that you do think if we could just kind of hone in on what are the things that we should really be focused on? Like we're not going to manage all risks, we're not going to be able to make Britney take down her video after a year or whatever. Where should we concentrate our efforts?

[A]

Definitely. So I would say, you know, going and looking at proximity, you know, in terms of the content. So a lot of times people, you know, a team, a brand team, will do a review of social media and say, okay, what's the content right now? And so when we think about if the campaign's coming up quickly, what's going to be positioned right before our ad, our sponsored content, you know, and then what kind of exclusivity are we buying? So what kind of period do we have of a rest and a buffer where we're the only skin care. Right. That's going to be talking about? We would want that and we would want that. And that's. That's a key, you know, deal term that will be negotiated, you know, based on price. It's usually price, deliverables, exclusivity and usage rights. Right. And then sometimes we get into the weeds of some of the more lawyer stuff like indemnification, cancellation, approval rights, sometimes revision terms. Right. How many rounds of revisions do you get? I would kind of put that.

[B]

Well, that would take forever. That you could see. That could take forever.

[A]

Yeah. So when I redline these deals, you get one consolidated round of revisions. So you get all your people in a room and you get your feedback and that's it. Unless we're significantly departing from the creative brief. Okay. If we go on a completely different direction and have a walkabout, and we're not anymore.

[B]

What is the creative. What's the creative brief?

[A]

So the creative brief would have been. Sometimes it's an actual slide deck or a Google Doc, sometimes it's put together online like a phone call. Right. So say we've negotiated the deal, we have the major terms now, we've signed the contract. Usually the creative brief comes after. Not always, though, because sometimes some of these deals, honestly, the creative brief happen. My client even filmed the content and we're still negotiating the contract. It's not ideal, but again, like this is sometimes. But there's good faith. Like we know they're going to pay and they probably know my clients good for the work. But we're just, again, this is sometimes the speed of departments. Right. Especially because we could be going from brand to agency to me. Right.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, that's really interesting. And I wonder, you know, like, as you're saying, kind of the legacy model especially, I would think established brands are probably a little more rigid around that process versus a startup or emerging brand, TikTok brands, that kind of stuff. So. But your advice is to try to be a little lighter on the pen.

[A]

Be a little lighter. And the biggest thing here, I would say, in terms of value and having success in a creator program, the creator campaign is, is you need to let the creator do what they do best, which is to create Content. And so the biggest mistake that I see brands making is they over manage and they over script and they do not let the creator do their thing, which is what you're hiring them to do. If you wanted someone to just stand up and read talking points, you could hire AI or hire AI. Yeah, or actor at this point. But that's not what you're paying for. So get the value of what you're paying for and let them have some freedom. Right. We understand, you know, there's limits and we have to think about brand safety and there's stakeholders who have to approve understood on all those points. But the best ads that I see are where I can tell the brand really trusted the creator and they're like, well, here's our goal, you know, here's our product and, or our service and. Or here's our goal. Brand awareness conversions, you know, or something else in between those. What do you think? What are your ideas? We'd like to hear from them and really treat this person as if they were approaching a creative partner, like they were hiring an agency, you know, and that's where you usually get the best, best results.

[B]

Well, it's interesting because, and I do think that depending on the sophistication of the company and how close they are to the creator economy, I think that they'll be different levels of trust and understanding that what you're buying is a different product than if you're working with a regular traditional agency. One thing that leads me to think about, you know, brand consistency on both sides of the ledger, like obviously they've sought out or they've recognized the creator for some reason. They've got an audience, it's the same, it's their target audience or they like the, you know, content that the person puts out.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But are there ways to. I mean, maybe it's not the contract, but how do you ensure that there is. You give that creator their freedom, but then you're also ensuring the consistency with your brand and their brand. Mm.

[A]

So yeah. And that's where I think, you know, having a good phone call or a meeting or a creative brief can help give so that you can have. It's not like it has to be completely open ended and maybe there's some talking points, maybe there's a voice and also it comes with having a really good selection process. Right. If your brand isn't funny and that's not your brand voice and it's just not what you do, then it could be kind of weird for you to work with someone who's really funny. You might not get that out of the gate. Right. That might be something you need to subtly work up to. Work up to. Right. You know, but if your brand is funny, right, you know, if you're duolingo, then you can do a lot of stuff. Now did they do all their own work in house? But if they had it right, they get a lot more freedom because of the brand voice they get in the personality and the Persona of their brand. And so you can do a lot more with on the creative side and pretty much be safer. And people would be like, oh yeah, that's them, that's on brand for them, for them to say that or have a joke like that. So okay, well cool.

[B]

So and you talked about like not over scripting, which I think is again to your point about recognizing that the creator is successful for a reason. You know, it's not because they've got a room of suits writing them, you know, a script.

[A]

Really, really stoic, bland copy that sounds terrible and that everyone immediately is like ad scroll. They immediately already swiped by which now you get nothing, none of your goals. Because at first you have to get people's attention before you can tell them anything else. And creators understand that because that is how they live and die is by understanding that principle and getting good at it.

[B]

Right? Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about some of the specifics. So you talked about when we started off about the package and sort of what do folks get? And I guess I'm looking at from both sides because I am a creator, I do have a sponsor. I'm looking for others if anyone's interested in sponsoring the legal department. What are sort of like a standard package of expectations for a creator relationship?

[A]

Yeah, it really depends on platform. You know, I would say for a podcast, for example, because I've worked on some of these deals on both sides, you know, you could expect to say, and ideally we are looking for always a longer term relationship. Right. So but obviously a brand usually want to test the waters. They don't want to commit a lot of budget if they're not sure it's a good fit, if it's going to be a good performance. Right. For them. But you could see something like, hey, for a podcast, you know, we want you to be our sponsor for the first quarter or the two quarters. You're going to get three ads. Maybe you know, a pre roll, which means before the show. Right. Mid roll means sometimes a middle break in the show and at the end. Right. And so. And then you Would you know, would take talk about length, usually 30 seconds or something, sometimes longer but that can again it depends on engagement and your value and then you would talk about price and what that looks like. So yeah, that's kind of a typical for like podcasts now on YouTube they're usually 60 seconds and they're usually integrated ads. If yours doing your own ads. Right. This is different from obviously YouTube business model of it's running ads and then shares that money in adsense with you. But if you get to be a bigger YouTube channel, people want to negotiate or do their own ads on their own and they can make a lot more money. So some of my bigger clients that are YouTubers, we've done six figure brand deals for one ad on YouTube. So. Oh wow, it's, it's a big ad and it's going to run for a while and the thing about YouTube is that those ads live forever because it's actually very difficult to go back and to edit ads and usually that's part of the contract is that so that's what a big thing that you're giving me that that might change in next year because YouTube has announced dynamic ad insertion which is what podcasts have basically tech where you can put markers in and then you can go and change and you can even do it for geography in different areas. Which that's going to be exciting because that is going to change the ad Market on YouTube. But right now that's not a possibility.

[B]

So. Okay, interesting. I was just going to ask about that because you know the podcast format I use allows for dynamic ad insertion. So I wasn't aware that YouTube doesn't have that capability.

[A]

Right. Isn't that seem. That seem crazy but I mean once you know, Dai Adamic changed on podcast it blew up in terms of the amount of money that could come just because you can imagine you could have so much more deal making and negotiation and packages you could put together because then you could localize ads which that's a really hard disconnect right now is local ads they can go run through Google and Google can book that ad inventory for them. But they are not likely going to be able to go with a local creator and influencer and make that connection and do those ads or change it just for their area and they hopefully will. That's the hope at least for next year. YouTube is being vague. They said they're rolling it out, we'll see when that feature comes online.

[B]

So yeah, well it sounds like that there's different kind of rules of the game for each different platform.

[A]

Yeah. And that's kind of where the deliverables are, you know, very platform dependent. And so depending on your reach as a creator, it could be single platform deal, we were just going to give you a deliverable package for this or it could be cross platform. Right. And that generally is someone who's larger or has more reach. You're obviously going to be a higher price point when you're getting attention across. And some of it could be the same creative, it's just going to be distributed right. In a different places. It might be a 30 second reel that's going to go on Instagram and it's going to go on TikTok and YouTube shorts.

[B]

So yeah, very interesting. Well, one thing that is in my mind, and this is more of a business term than a legal term, but you know, it seems very different. Creator influencer marketing deals seem very different from traditional deals because is you don't know what the market is, you know, and each creator may be their own bespoke thing. Right. Because some of them are very niche and it's almost from a brand standpoint it seems amazing that you could really target, figure out somebody who's targeting and has a reach with your specific audience. And so I'm wondering, are there any resources or how do you determine what our market rate for working with creator pricing?

[A]

Yeah, so yeah, it is the tricky thing. You know, there are general, you know, if you go online and use there are some software that tries to kind of do a general calculator based on audience size and what you're asking for. And so that's a starting point. I would always, you know, caution people though. That's one data point. Right. You know, and just like on the creator side, some people believe and have a media kit and have set pricing where it's more of a menu and you could just see right up front and some don't and some are like, no, what are your goals, what do you want to do with this? What's your budget? And of course we get in the budget still made of what's your budget, what's your price? Right around and around, you know, the Spider man meme. So you know, there's a little bit of that. There are some websites that actually are more on the creator and talent side. There's one actually called Fu Payme. Which brands. Yeah, exactly. Which brands itself is like a glass door for creator deals where people will enter in deals and they'll remove obviously identifying putts, but put in like what the developers Were, you know, in a way they're not breaching confidentiality, but it is like a clearinghouse and it's a paid subscription now. You know, but for some people, especially if you're a talent manager or creator, it's definitely worth it.

[B]

You need to have some expert because I would think I, and I do want to talk a little bit about the agent manager type side of things. But yeah, you know, I think it's hard. You do get into that stalemate and I think the creator wants to, you know, land the deal, but they also want to get paid fairly for what they're bringing to the table. And when you don't have an agency or again a traditional market has sort of over time set what pricing is.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And this is so bespoke and individual like that's why I was hoping to get, you know, people like when the lawyers review the agreements, I mean they typically will highlight how much we're spending on this. Right. And so one question you might ask the business if you're in house is wow, that seems like a lot of money. What are we getting for that?

[A]

Right. Yeah. And that is. It is really difficult there because yeah. And again, probably the highest and the biggest metric that's most important is that engagement rate. And so a lot of times brands and agencies will ask for that beforehand so that they can set pricing.

[B]

And really what's an engagement rate?

[A]

That's even more important than followers. Right. Or subscribers per se because it's not about how many people at one point clicked a button button. It's, you know, how many people watch your stuff regularly. Right. And what can we expect in terms of performance and also with reasonable expectations because ad and sponsored things are always going to get less. Right. And some of that is creators, they say the platforms, you know, de incentivize that they don't like it, you know, and so they're trying to get a piece. Whether that's true or not or that is true audience behavior. Because algorithms of course are supposed to be conditioned on. They're just telling, they're giving what you like. Right. And so the users get bored and they're not watching as much and so that becomes a self fulfilling. Right.

[B]

Well that goes to the point about the scripting versus not scripting. You know, like if you had an ad or whatever that was more, I would think that sounded more authentic and less scripted. Is that what you're saying? Or in terms of what the algorithm or what the platform would screen out as ad content.

[A]

Yeah. So I mean you're required to have certain disclosures. Right. So you have to put in ad or sponsored or at least like, you know, if you were with, you know, Sunday Fridays, it should say like Sunday, Friday partner.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so some people believe, oh, well, those get shadow banned or those get less engagement by Instagram. I don't know if that's the case or the fact that those ads are sometimes more boring. And people know their ads.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

They just, they don't click on them. Right. And so, you know, good creators. And I actually have. I keep a folder on my Instagram when I see really good ads of people. Some of them are clients and some of them are not. When they do a really good job of having something that's so funny and brings so much value and it just happens to have a product in it. Right. That they reference or show. And then again in the copy, right. Where they need to, they show that it's ad or sponsored. So. But it takes a lot more work and a lot more talent. And some people get lazy or they're not allowed to do that, honestly, from the brand. The brand's like, nope, we want an ad to look like this. And those, the creators are like, fine, but it's gonna do poorly. And then you're gonna be mad at me and be like, yeah, right. We thought you got a hundred thousand views per thing. And you're like, well, I do when it's good, but this isn't good. No one wants to watch this because it's a freaking commercial. So.

[B]

Yeah, right, right. Well, hey, I'm wondering, as we're kind of wrapping up here, where can folks get what resources are out there for people like me who may be working with.

[A]

Great, great, great question. There's certainly some newsletters that I think are really helpful. One that I will mention specifically is Leah Haberman is Lia Haberman. She's a UCLA adjunct professor and she also has a newsletter called In Case youe Might Missed it, that shortens to, you know, I C Y M I. It's a great resource. It's one of the few that I pay and actually take the time to make sure I read even in busy schedule. But she kind of does an overview of the creator economy, you know, every week and says, here's what's happening, here's all the features. Because that's another thing. Platforms are changing constantly. Right. You know, we just heard this week from Mozeri, Adam Mozeri, and Instagram of you're going to be able to have visibility into how we created your own algorithm and what we think you like, like and you can adjust that if we've whatever got, you know, if you maybe went down a rabbit hole and you're like, oh no, I really wasn't into that woodworking. And now all my stuff is woodworking, you know, which is a change, right, because we've never had that kind of transparency. So we'll see how that goes. But for example, that's the kind of thing that Leah would tell you about and that way you could be on top of it because that affects your industry, right. In terms of who's doing what and then who's hiring, who's consolidating. You know, there's a lot of movement and roll ups in this area. There's a lot of investment in creator adjacent companies in the creator economy because there's some big numbers and they're attracting attention and a lot of people want to see this industry, you know, glow up a little bit and be a little bit more professionalized, have a little bit more standards. I think some of that will happen. And I think some people are kind of in for a little bit of a rude awakening because creatives are going to be creative. And you know, after working with this audience pretty exclusively for 10 years, like, you know, these are true creative people at heart and they tolerate risk really well and they're scrappy and they're DIY by wires and they see things in their visionary and so putting them in thinking they're all going to use software and structure and be really good and have tight reports all the time, you're not going to get that and there's going to be some of that that doesn't, that doesn't translate. So.

[B]

Yeah, well, hey, thanks so much. I've really enjoyed learning a little bit behind the curtain about how this works. And you know, I wonder if you have just any parting advice for folks like me in the GC chair.

[A]

Yeah, I think, you know, it's to try to have an open mind and I understand that sometimes as you know, as a gc you have a tough job in terms of being a, you know, you're asked to be a specialist in everything when really, you know, you're a generalist and there's a lot of things that you have to consider and put on your plate but you know, as you're considering approaching or maybe your company wants to do more of these deals or enter in this area is to be, you know, open minded about the kind of connection to relationships you can have. Because I've even Seen people who been able to successfully bring in a creator as almost like a product manager or product advisor and have a longer term relationship, that's cool. Which is a cool thing and really can be a win for both sides. So you know, try to not think this person as an order taker or as just someone who films something. Right. That like we talked about at the beginning, that's ugc. That's a very small part of it. And honestly I see most of those people, especially if they're faceless, that's probably going to be replaced by AI. So instead the better creators will be the real human who have crafted a really good job of getting people's attention and having authentic connection. Authentics a really, you know, buzzword. But if someone who's figured that out, see what you can do to learn from them and if they love your product or open to improving your product. And in fact I've been able to pivot some of these deals where you know, my client was in the food space and they got sent a product and they were supposed to do a deal. My client hated the product and they're like, there are some huge problems. I can't talk about this to my audience. I don't feel right about this. Right, right. And so we had to go back to the brand and this is not a great conversation but we were able to pivot and be like, well, bad news, we're not going to be able to do the deal as planned. But what if my client gives you some feedback? Will you work on it and the next version? Hopefully if you fix these things now she loves that product and she's like their number one sales girl for that. Right. And so there's different ways to think about having people's perspective that are so close to their audience and their community that you want to get their eyeballs. They can really be a huge asset for your company.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Just be open minded about it.

[B]

Be open. I love it. I love it. Well, hey, on another fun ending, I always ask guests for their pump up song. I have been, I think I put this actually in the prep notes and this. We were gonna do this a few months ago so I'm still listening to Destiny's Child. Independent woman. So I, I.

[A]

You said independent woman, which I for sure listened to that. You know, when I was 15, cause I lived in Idaho, I got to go have my day license and I was the oldest so I got the fresh new teenager car and I remember having like 10 inch subs in the back and I thought I was the coolest girl ever played Subaru with playing independent woman. So I would agree with you there. But I would say personally, the song I've been listening to since I was 11 and still gets me going is Fantasy by Mariah Carey. So my kids know if I'm like trying to get everyone up Saturday morning and get us excited about chores, that's what's going to come on loud and strong, you know, over our Sono speakers to try to get everyone going and distracting from the fact that yes, we are cleaning.

[B]

All right. Awesome. Awesome. Thanks so much for being here. Loved it.

[A]

Yeah, thanks for having me.

[B]

Hey, thanks for joining me today in the legal department. If you like the show, would you please follow, like and subscribe. That helps other listeners to find the show. And if you're really inspired, you can rate and review on Apple, Spotify or anywhere you get podcasts promote. For more information about the show, check out our website legaldepartmentpod.com Thanks.