← The Legal Department![Goal Getter: The Happiness Factor Marla Persky Executive Coach, 2x GC And Independent Board Member [E86] — The Legal Department cover](https://feeds.podetize.com/33Kp1byNt.jpg)
The Legal Department
Goal Getter: The Happiness Factor Marla Persky Executive Coach, 2x GC And Independent Board Member [E86]
00:37:29
Loading summary
Transcript93 lines
- [00:02]
A
This episode of the Legal Department is part of the Goal Getter series where we talk about how to build a career you actually want instead of flying on autopilot. If you've been feeling stuck at work, this episode is for you.
- [00:14]
B
My name is Marla Persky. I am a corporate director and career coach. And a fun fact about me is that I am an avid, avid dog lover.
- [00:29]
A
Welcome to the Legal Department, a podcast for lawyers who want to learn, connect, and grow their careers. I'm Stacey Bratcher. I'm a general counsel and I'm excited to share these conversations to help you level up in house. On today's episode of the Legal Department. I'm really pumped up to talk to Marla Persky. She is a former general counsel and current executive coach and independent board director. And we're going to be talking about goals, which is something I'm super passionate about, especially this time of year. So, Marlo, welcome to the Legal Department. Great to have you.
- [01:09]
B
Thanks, Stacy. Pleased to be with you this morning.
- [01:12]
A
So I followed you a little bit. You've been on a couple other shows and certainly your board journey is very inspiring, especially for women who are underrepresented on boards. But I'd like to get a little bit of your background to kind of set the stage for our conversation today. So just a little bit of background about your in house career and your board experience, certainly.
- [01:36]
B
Well, let's start with what I'm doing now. So I am an executive coach for sitting general counsel and clos and people whose next jobs will be general counsel. I work with Barker Gilmore as well as for myself in helping people reach career satisfaction and at whatever stage in their career they are in their general counsel journey. So I do that about 50% of the time. And then the other 50% of the time I sit on corporate boards, both for profit and nonprofit. The for profit boards are all in the pharmaceutical industry because that's really the industry where I spent the vast majority of my career. I worked for two of the largest pharma companies in the world before I happily retired from the practice of law. And so I believe in serving on a board I best serve when I really know the industry inside and out and then from the nonprofit side of things because I strongly believe that people should give back to the community. And there's a thousand ways to do it. One of the ways I do it is by sitting on nonprofit boards. And one of the boards I'm on is Blood Cancer United, which was formerly known as the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society. And I've been on that board for nine years. In fact, this is my last year there. I'm going to be very sorry to leave that one organization because there are term limits. And another one of my passions, which is theater on the board of Primary Stages, which is an off Broadway theater company.
- [03:19]
A
Oh, fun. That sounds really fun. Well, and when we talked in prep, I know after you retired from the pharma jobs, you also had your own business for a while, which I thought was really interesting.
- [03:30]
B
Yes, well, and I still have my own business, so we'll get into this more. But when deciding that I no longer wanted to be a general counsel and I no longer wanted to practice law, I started two companies at the same time, which I would not necessarily recommend, but we all have our own craziness that we live. One was Epicurean Travel, which is a travel company dedicated to people who love the intersection of food, culture, history and travel. And was a wonderful company. I really enjoyed it. And it did not survive Covid, but that's all right because things have their natural lifespan. The other, which is company that still exists is womn, which is dedicated to helping women and people of color succeed in the business of law.
- [04:28]
A
That's so cool. I know. We'll get into that more. Well, you didn't get where you are in board seats and executive coaching and general counsel of large pharma companies without having a plan and goals on how to get there. And one of the things I think a lot about, or I perceive that a lot of people have aspirations, but not necessarily a plan or goals. And I say that people kind of sleepwalk through their careers and I really want to help people kind of wake up. So that's why I wanted to talk with you about it. I know, and we kind of talked in prep, like at the beginning of the year, people maybe write down a couple things they want to do and then they put that in a pile on the side and you had some great insights about how and why we should take out that sheet of paper and make our goals a priority.
- [05:19]
B
All right, so you know every single successful company in the world has annual goals and has a five year strategy. Because if you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there. So if successful companies do this, and this is true across the world, why shouldn't a person who owns their career do exactly the same thing with regard to their career? So that you're not sleepwalking, you can be deliberate and you don't have to actually Be accurate. That's the difference. I mean, you're your only shareholder, right? So your goals can change, but you need to think about what it is you're doing and are you happy. In fact, one of the hallmarks of what I do with the folks that I coach is I talk about the happiness factor. What makes you happy in your career, what makes you happy professionally, what makes you happy personally? Now, you'd be a fool to expect any job's going to make you happy 100% of the time. But if you can be happy in your job 65% of your time, that's a pretty damn good job.
- [06:36]
A
Well, that shoots low for me. So I tell people that it should be 80, 20. 80% you like, love, or makes you happy. And 20% is why you get paid.
- [06:47]
B
See, I think I'm more of a cynic than you are. I think if you're 65% happy, then you have another, let's say, 20% that you tolerate. And then there's. Now my math will be bad. Then there's another 15. 15% that you dislike. But you gotta do it because you gotta do it. I mean, I don't know how many people enjoy filling out their own performance reviews every year. I mean, you gotta do it. It's not really fun, but it's one of those things that you've just got to do.
- [07:22]
A
But I like that you are highlighting that work is something that we should enjoy.
- [07:28]
B
Absolutely. You should be happier than unhappy. If you're driving home with a scowl on your face every single day, you're not in the right job, why the hell are you doing it? So. And in fact, that's one of the exercises that I go through, people and in setting their goals. First of all, it's the happiness factor. Why would you be driving home in the days when people actually drove home. Okay, why would you be driving home from work with a smile on your face rather than a scowl? And then peel back that onion, what was it that's making you smile that day, what did you do? What did you accomplish? What did you avoid? What did you manage to finagle? Whatever it was, why are you smiling? And then once you're able to identify what gives you happiness and satisfaction, then you get to think about how you set up yourself to do more of that rather than less of that. And that's where the goal setting is. We're talking about career goals to try to get you to be happier rather than dissatisfied. Yeah.
- [08:41]
A
No, I love that. And I try to do that every day. As I'm walking to my car, I think about was this a good day or a bad day? And if so, why? Like what did I really lit me up in this day? Where did I get that sense of satisfaction? And then as you said, do more of that. And there is the noise, there is the administration, there is the must dos as I call them. That is why it's a job. But there are. We wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't something that lit us up.
- [09:09]
B
Well, that's what you hope anyway.
- [09:11]
A
Yeah, that's what you hope and go ahead.
- [09:13]
B
Yeah, no, I was just going to say it's because we are busy in our jobs. You can be so busy doing that you don't think.
- [09:22]
A
Yes.
- [09:23]
B
And that and carving out the time to think. Whether it's when you're driving home from work, whether it's when you're shaving or you're putting on your makeup where you're looking at yourself in the eye and you can't lie to yourself, that's some thinking time. And even if it's three minutes a day, a little thinking time as opposed to just rushing and doing, I mean,
- [09:45]
A
as you were saying that I just resonate with that so strongly because in these, in house rules, in any lawyer job, really any lawyer job, you are so busy and you are at the service of others. And so I feel like we have a tendency to put ourselves last or just not at all. And so when the client's at your door, when the email comes in, when the filing is due, that's where your attention goes. And maybe at the end of that day you're just depleted, you've just done it all and then just I want to get home and like zone out. Like I don't want to think about that. So how can we, and you know this better than anyone, having been GC of large companies, like how do you hold back that tsunami of work that is kind of demands and other needs coming at you and give yourself that time? How do you make yourself a priority?
- [10:37]
B
Yeah, well, there's not one way to do it. You need to understand what kind of person you are. I'm one of those people that live and die by my calendar. Right. So because that's the way I operate, I would calendar time in for things that I needed to do that I should do that was easy not to do because some other barking dog was always at the door. So I would do that for actually doing my year end review. Once a quarter I would go back and I would look at my goals for the year. I'm not talking about career goals now. I'm talking about the bonus goals. The bonus goals. I would look quarterly at those goals to make sure that I'm actually doing something and writing down what I did. Because, remember, at the end of the year, it's December 15th, and you gotta get the goals in, and you want to try to remember what you did during the course of the year. And you can't. I mean, you can't. There's just too much. It's overwhelming. So if you. For me, quarterly, I would sit down and I could look at my calendar. I'd remember what I did that quarter, and I would just write little notes to myself. So when December 15th came, I had all my notes and it was easy to do. I calendared that same thing with networking, which I know we're going to talk about. I would calendar time for networking. I don't want to get into exactly what networking means right now, but I would make sure that I would put time on my calendar to get it done. Otherwise, client, a meeting, a call, you know, somebody just popping their head in for two minutes. I mean, it takes.
- [12:21]
A
Sorry to interrupt. It's quick. Just exactly 45 minutes later.
- [12:27]
B
This won't take long, but. Right, exactly. Yeah.
- [12:31]
A
I really find that there is that tension between being a service provider and I struggle with this all the time, between wanting to be in service and also, even, as you were saying, those big bonus goals. Right. Which are for the benefit of the company as well as yourself.
- [12:48]
B
Right.
- [12:49]
A
But if you are not intentional, if you do not have your eye on the ball, December 15th can come and go and you may not have hit what you needed to hit. So I think that's a great takeaway to be quite intentional by dedicating time to both of all of those things. All of those things. So I love that. What about. You know, I. I think a lot about people who feel stuck. I think the legal track, the. The law school investment, the amount of time and money and effort you put into it, you can feel stuck. Right. Especially you could have a great big job that from the outside looks great. I use the expression all that glitters is not gold, because how can you move yourself forward? How can you take a different perspective and try to set some goals that are beyond what you have already?
- [13:39]
B
So things are not mutually exclusive. Right. A good enough job is good enough today, it may not be good enough tomorrow. There are so many different concepts wrapped up in this. There's the concept of enough. When do you have enough. And that definition changes over time, right? So if somebody's used to making a half a million dollars a year, how can you live in a world where you're not making at least a half a million dollars a year? And by the way, it's going to go up and up and up and up. Because that's what we've been programmed. I mean, look at Elon Musk.
- [14:18]
A
That's what we expect.
- [14:19]
B
That's what we expect. Right. You know, so can you be satisfied with enough? There's always more. But when is there enough? If you spend every penny of that half a million? Well, yeah, you're gonna have to keep earning a half a million dollars a year because your lifestyle eats up every penny you make. What would happen, though, if. Put taxes aside, we're talking about after tax money. What happens if you could live a really good life on $300,000 a year? Then there's 200,000 that you could be saving for your future. You could be donating to charities that really mean something to you. You could be supporting your family, whatever it is. But if you can, what's enough for you? And that's a very, very personal thing.
- [15:14]
A
I think it's also hard because, as you were saying, there's sort of these external metrics. If you do have a job at a certain level or a certain company or, you know, a certain salary, that is, as you said, sort of like that's the standard. And so my next thing needs to be at least this or more. And so, you know, that is a. I think it's a cultural thing among lawyers that we're so externally focused on the hardware on the wall, the status, et cetera, that it makes it hard for people to move out into a different track.
- [15:49]
B
And that's where, again, you go back to the happiness factor. What makes you happy? If what makes you happy is other people and how other people view you, and that's really what makes you happy, well, then that's gonna drive your behavior. And if what really makes you happy is something that is through your own eyes as opposed to through the eyes of others, well, then you're going to behave differently and plan differently.
- [16:17]
A
Yeah, well, it goes. I think the happiness factor is a theme that we should carry throughout this conversation. Right.
- [16:23]
B
For sure. Because it's at the root of everything.
- [16:26]
A
It's the why.
- [16:28]
B
Yeah, it's the why. But you have to be honest about it. But, you know, we are not rats on a wheel unless we let ourselves be right and to dictate what we're going to do well then that we're doing it to ourselves. That's it. We're doing it to ourselves and we just have to stop.
- [16:49]
A
Yeah.
- [16:50]
B
Not all of us can do it. It takes a lot of discipline. It takes a huge amount of discipline and not all of us have it. It's like muscle memory. You gotta practice it. You gotta practice it. You gotta practice it in a while. Say no to something that you normally would say yes.
- [17:07]
A
Yes.
- [17:08]
B
When you don't really want to do it. Start little, build yourself up. Realize that the world doesn't end. Things don't come to a screeching halt when you say no to something.
- [17:21]
A
Yeah, I love that because I think folks do envision that next rung. I will be happy when I am need to achieve this thing to, you know, advance. And let's just talk about the in house track because that's what something I know pretty well. I think again, at a law firm it's more visible.
- [17:39]
B
Right.
- [17:40]
A
Like you're an associate, senior associate, try to get partner, equity partner, all that. But in house, you know, you see the general counsel who's sort of the top of the ladder and then there may be some managing level lawyers ahead of you, but those jobs are different jobs. And I think that if you are just focused on the title, the achievement, you really miss. Kind of what you were talking about earlier with what is fulfilling.
- [18:06]
B
Right, right. So were you at a law firm before you went in house?
- [18:10]
A
I was, I was. So.
- [18:12]
B
As was I. And that we're talking in the stone ages. This was a very long time ago. I remember when I went in house, I was very disoriented for a couple of years because I didn't know what was my goal. Because you.
- [18:25]
A
Right.
- [18:26]
B
You know, well, it's no longer trying to be partner. Right. It's no longer as measurable with like the building hours and stuff like that.
- [18:35]
A
Not linear. It's not linear.
- [18:36]
B
Exactly. And that was very disconcerting. Which, which sometimes I'm not necessarily the most intuitive person in the world. Sometimes something has to hit me in the face for me to go, oh, okay. Well, after about a year and a half or two years of being in house, it dawned on me, you know something, there's different ways of measuring what I'm doing. You know what I really want to do? I want to be invited to sit into some of these business meetings because the discussions are so interesting and I can be part of that as opposed to just go and do it after the fact type of thing. And So I started to learn there was a culture of business that I never really understood from a law firm perspective. And that's what I really liked. And that's actually one of the things that became a goal of mine throughout my legal practice in house was to spend more time doing business than law.
- [19:35]
A
This is a great transition, Marla, because, I mean, I think for lawyers to think about goals differently than just the next rung on the ladder. Like what you're describing is looking at your in house, day to day, what do I like? What can I learn? How can I get into different spaces and rooms? I mean, that is. So let's talk about the type of goals, other than career progression, that you might choose to put on that annual goal list.
- [20:04]
B
Right. So for mine, one of mine was to spend more time doing businessy things than legally things. So why would I be in the meeting? I'd be in the meeting because if they're talking about something that would have a legal implication, I would be the one most likely to bring it up. But that didn't mean that was the only thing I did at the meeting. My true value was being a smart thinking person that didn't necessarily have a dog in the hunt. Because did we have to do this acquisition? Was my ego all wrapped up into acquiring X or doing Y? No, it doesn't make sense. I could step back and just ask questions. I was using the things I learned as a lawyer, listening, asking questions, questioning the status quo, suggesting alternatives. Those are all, all things that we, as good lawyers learn to do. And I was doing it, though not about law, but about business. So that became that goal. So that was one of my goals. What's another example? Another example is spending more time supporting the company's nonprofit activities. If there's a foundation or getting on the company's foundation board. So you can spend some time doing that or perchance, you know, and when this I'll just self reference. Back when I moved in House, I was doing litigation. And after years and years, including leading litigation, I didn't want to do litigation anymore because it was, it'll beat the hell out of you. And it made me just see things in a very, very dark light. Because you only litigate when something goes awry. I decided that I wanted, by year end, one year, I no longer wanted to be doing litigation. And I was head of litigation, by the way.
- [22:05]
A
That's an odd. I mean, let's just pause on that, right? That's kind of an audacious goal. And I think for people who may Feel pigeonholed. I am a litigator. I want to aspire to the head of litigation. Oh, I'm head of litigation. I'm tired of this. Am I stuck? No. Marla, what did you do? How did you put it out there?
- [22:22]
B
I went to the general counsel and I sat down with him, and I said, look, this litigation is robbing me of joy. I mean, I. If you want me to stay, I'm gonna sound like I was threatening him, which I was not doing. We were having a very productive conversation. But I said, look, if you want me to stay in this organization, you need to help me find an other way to add value. I don't wanna do it through heading up litigation anymore. I'd really like to move more to the business side of things now. What was he gonna do? Flip me over and make me head of marketing? No, that. No, absolutely not. But what he did was help me move in and become the lead attorney for one of the subsidiaries whose litigation I'd been handling for years. So I knew the business. I knew the people. You know, litigation is a great way to learn a business. Right.
- [23:19]
A
It's a great way to learn a business.
- [23:20]
B
And so I already had the credibility with the business people because they were used to working with me in the litigation realm. So I then became their lead lawyer, and I worked with them on the legal support of their business, which allowed me to actually be in those kind of business meetings that I was dying to be in all the time. Not as a. Well, you know, if you do X, Y is going to happen, but more as a, what if we did Y instead? That could be fun, you know, tidy.
- [23:52]
A
Did you have any fear? Because I've got this question from a listener recently about making a pivot into something they hadn't done before. Did you have any fear or concern about moving into something like you'd been a litigator for, sounds like most of your career.
- [24:11]
B
Right.
- [24:12]
A
But very successful. And I know this inside and out to now, you have a much broader role lawyering for every part of that subsidiary. Like, how did you feel about that?
- [24:21]
B
Well, there was. I would say fear. There was concern. I'm not driven by fear. Right. Because fear will either make you do something stupid or prevent you from doing something that could be wonderful because of the fear. So I'm not driven by fear, but I'm not so unaware that I don't sometimes have concerns about, do I really know what the hell I'm doing here? And you're not alone. Right. There are people around you you can ask. Just like I went to my general counsel to say, help me make the career change I want. If he would have said, no, Marla, I'm sorry, You're a litigator. You're going to live the litigator. You're going to die a litigator. I probably would have left the company to do something else. It would have taken a while, but I had somebody who was really supportive, who was willing to work with me. So you ask for the help. You don't walk in the room the first day and be a know it all because you're afraid to let them know. You don't know. This is the first time I've ever done this. So that's great. You know, you just. You're honest with people. Look, you know, I haven't done this before, but I do know somebody who's done it a million times. Let me talk to her about that, or let me talk to him about this, or let's get him to the table so that we can do some brainstorming. And then I learned by watching others who did know what the hell they were doing.
- [25:43]
A
You know, I think your earlier comments about the legal skills that I think many of us take for granted, the asking questions, the questioning, the status quo, the curiosity, I think that people undervalue
- [25:59]
B
those skills because those are translatable skills that will help you in know anything that you want to do.
- [26:06]
A
Yes. And I think that especially if you spend most of your time with other lawyers, you think that everybody has those skills. And in my experience, being in rooms with business people a lot, I have been surprised that a lot of times I ask foundational questions that many people in the room had, but no one raised their hand to ask. So it's like a superpower, this curiosity and questioning that I think we all have as lawyers, that we are undervaluing.
- [26:36]
B
I think you're 100% correct about that, Stacey. You know, there's so many times people are afraid to ask questions because they don't want to look stupid. You know, every business has acronyms, right. So I would often find myself sitting in a meeting and people are just tossing around these acronyms and.
- [26:56]
A
Yeah.
- [26:56]
B
And I would lean over to the person next to me and I would say, well, what does ABC mean? And they're like, I don't know, I don't know. And then I would say, excuse me, I probably should know, but I don't. What does ABC mean? And honest to God, I would look around the table and all of these eyes would Be, oh, thank God she asked that question because I don't know what ABC is.
- [27:18]
A
Well, and to the point about. And you said this earlier about feeling like you have to know it all. There is power and vulnerability that I don't think people realize. So when you ask those questions, I bet that the other people in the room said, I want to be with Marla. She's gonna take us places. Because we're all sitting here like idiots. We don't know what anybody's talking about. We leave the meeting, we have no idea what we're supposed to do because we don't know what any of these acronyms actually mean. And now Marla has helped us figure out what the hell we're doing.
- [27:49]
B
And just as you said, one of your superpowers was asking the questions and not being afraid to show that vulnerability. One of my superpowers was summarizing things before we left the meeting.
- [28:02]
A
Yes.
- [28:03]
B
All right. Just wanna make sure I'm walk out of here hearing what everybody else heard. We've all agreed on abc. Stacey's going to do A, I'm going to do B, and George is going to do C, and we're going to do it by X date, and then we're going to get back together. Am I right about this? And then everybody gets to walk out of the room with the same understanding. So people would want me to come to meetings because the meetings were more productive, not because of the conduct of the meeting, but because it wasn't a waste of time, because people knew what to do after the meeting.
- [28:39]
A
Yeah, well, and again, those are legal skills. And those even if you weren't a transactional or general counsel at that time, those legal skills made you valuable. So I guess the take home point is to zoom out. And you are not just a commercial lawyer, a litigator, whatever. Like, you can broaden because your skills are things that people need.
- [29:02]
B
Right. Laws change, rules change, regulations change. And lawyers learn to adapt. Right. And that's adapting in a substantive area. If you can adapt in a substantive area, you can adapt in a skill area as well, too.
- [29:17]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, as we're rounding the bend, you mentioned networking goals earlier. And I am equally passionate about networking goals. And I, you know, I feel like it's the other N word. You know that networking sounds gross, right? It sounds like I'm at a cocktail party and just having schmoozy conversations, but that's not what we mean. And I in particular feel like it is essential for anybody in any industry, but in particular, lawyers So I want to talk about. You mentioned that you would dedicate time on your calendar for networking. So tell me what that was and what is a networking goal?
- [29:58]
B
Right, so let's first go back and let me define what networking means to me. Networking to me is creating sustainable, mutually beneficial relationships. So there's two important elements in that. One is sustainable and the other is mutually beneficial. So if we walk away from today and you got a good interview for your podcast, and I felt it was a waste of time, this wasn't a mutually beneficial networking event, I assure you that's not the way.
- [30:38]
A
Thank you. I was worried. I assured you that's not the way I feel.
- [30:41]
B
But if you and I can walk away from an interaction where we both got something beneficial out of it, that's good networking. And it's not a one and done. We're not talking about serial dating. We're talking about setting up relationships. Not that we're going to talk with each other every day. Maybe we only talk with each other once a year, but as long as that, once a year is mutually beneficial, who's to say that during the course of the year, something doesn't come up? And I go, oh, my God. You know, this is something Stacy would really like. She and I talked about that, and it will make me think about you and pick up the phone and call you or text you or send you an email, and that's what you really want from networking, a way to be relevant to people and to help them.
- [31:32]
A
Okay, so then how. How do we put this in a goal framework? Because it sort of feels like, oh, well, now Marla and I are connected, so I'm just going to ping her and we're going to touch base every so often. But that's being a friend, actually. So that's.
- [31:45]
B
Yeah.
- [31:45]
A
So how would we put this in a goal framework?
- [31:48]
B
Right. So for me, when I do, I network every single day in one way, every single day. And that is I Look at my LinkedIn feed every single day to see who's popping up, who's written something, who's gotten. Who's had an anniversary, who's got a new job. And it's a push notification, right? Because it ends up in my email box. So every day before I start reading my email, I go to my LinkedIn and I spend five minutes. It's only five minutes on LinkedIn. And that's how I stay connected with people. And it's not just a little, like, thing. If somebody got a promotion, I'll send them a little blurb. And it takes, what, 14 seconds? You know, Stacy, just read about your new job. Congratulations. If there's anything I can do to help, let me know. That's a reaching out sort of thing, right? And that's how I do it. I do it every day. Is that the only thing I do know? There are some days that I do go to the dreaded cocktail parties. There are some days where I do do a webinar.
- [32:55]
A
But are you doing it for a particular purpose or in advancement of a goal? Like, for example, one of the things I'm working on this year is, and I did a podcast episode about this. I don't have the episode number handy, but I built and building an affirmative recovery program for our company. So what I'm doing from a networking standpoint is interacting with lawyers in the antitrust space, in the insurance recovery space. I'm attending conferences, et cetera, to try to build out our affirmative recovery program. And so from a networking standpoint, that's how I'm working backwards. So just if you don't mind just sharing, kind of, in addition to just kind of keeping people, you know, close, what, how does that incorporate into your goals?
- [33:40]
B
Well, one of the things that, you know, I work with Barker Gilmore, and Barker Gilmore is primarily a search firm for lawyers and chief compliance officers. I work with them. I'm not helping them with their. I'm not a headhunter for them. Right. I'm there as an executive coach for some of their clients who are looking for executive coaches. But I also, through my networking, can help people get jobs through Barker Gilmore. So that's a networking goal. If I can help a company that helps give me business get more clients, then I'm doing a good thing. That's a networking goal. That's an example. Talk about from a general counsel perspective. After you've been a general counsel for a long time, you're always busy, but sometimes you start to get bored with being busy with the same things. You can switch companies. Certainly you could also take a look at the legal profession and decide, you know, I want to have a higher profile in the profession and add to the profession and get satisfaction in other ways outside of my general counsel or in addition to my general counsel. So maybe what I want to do is, you know, be on the ABA Commission for X or become more involved in the business round table. And so I'm networking for that as well too, to increase my influence profile and satisfaction with what I'm doing in the profession generally. Or maybe, you know, what I really want to do is help my company's profile in some other arena. Again, I keep going back to business roundtable, so I'm going to go to those meetings as a representative for the company.
- [35:34]
A
Yeah.
- [35:34]
B
And I'm networking and I'm meeting people. But it's also helping me as I progress in my career because it's more than just the job. It's more of a holistic view as to what career is.
- [35:48]
A
Yeah, I love that, Marla. I really do. Because it, as you said, it is zooming out from the job, looking at your career, truly as a career. And I love what you said at the outset about you own your career. So goals and being intentional about what you're doing and why you're doing it I think is kind of the bottom line of our conversation. I ask all guests the same final question, and it's a fun one. This morning I was getting pumped up listening to Sabrina Carpenter, which my kids are, who my kids are really into. What is your pump up song?
- [36:23]
B
My pump up song is We Built this City by starship. It's a 19. This gives you a little pinch as to how old I am. It's a 1985 song, but it's we built this city.
- [36:35]
A
Yeah.
- [36:36]
B
We built this city on rock and roll. For reasons I don't understand, that's my pump up song.
- [36:42]
A
I love it. Thank you so much. This really was a great conversation and so much of what you said really resonated with me. So I appreciate it.
- [36:50]
B
Oh, I really enjoyed our talk, Stacy. Thank you.
- [36:53]
A
I was worried there for a minute. I was worried there for a minute.
- [36:56]
B
Well, you always want to keep them guessing.
- [36:59]
A
That's right. That's right. Hey, before you go, if you want more content from the legal department, check out TLD Goal Getter on substack. It's a mix of free and subscription based content to help you level up your career. That's TLD Goal Getter on Substack. Hope you check it out.