Podcast Summary: The Legal Department – "Stuck At Work? Tips To Reboot Your Career With Ellen Yang"

Host: Stacy Bratcher
Guest: Ellen Yang (Partner & General Counsel, DTO Law; former in-house counsel at Taco Bell and Public Storage)
Date: December 30, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the often-undiscussed theme of feeling "stuck" at work, especially among in-house lawyers. Stacy and Ellen candidly explore why talented professionals lose momentum, what "being stuck" really means, and practical strategies for rebooting your legal career. The conversation draws on Ellen's well-received Bloomberg Law article, while weaving in both hosts’ real experiences and actionable advice for lawyers at every level.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Career “Stuck” Phenomenon in Law

• Taboo Topic: Feeling stagnant is common but rarely discussed openly among lawyers, especially at social or professional events ([02:31]).
• In-House Myths: Law firm attorneys may envy the perceived stability and prestige of in-house roles, but these positions can also become routine or unfulfilling ([04:10]).
• Self-Perception: Many lawyers struggle to imagine alternative career paths, believing, “this is what I am, what else could I do?” ([04:54])

Quote:
“I try to be very candid and honest with them. I give them the good, bad, and the ugly. And I was like, maybe there’s something there, because I feel like this is an underserved area, one that’s not spoken about often.”
— Ellen Yang [03:47]

2. Why Lawyers Get Stuck

• Personality and Training: Lawyers often overachieve and find periods of low activity as anxiety-provoking as times of overwhelming busyness ([06:40]).
• Professional Inertia: Job progression can stall for reasons like organizational structure (e.g., no promotional opportunities unless someone leaves), or repetitive, siloed work ([07:11]; [09:17]).
• Personal Needs: Career goals can change with personal circumstances (e.g., parenting stages) ([05:35]).

Quote:
“My husband tells me all the time … if there’s something, it’s like kind of a lull, he observes … you’re not busy enough.”
— Stacy Bratcher [06:50]

3. Types of “Stuck” and Self-Assessment

• Three Common Ruts:
  • Lack of professional development or new skills
  • Absent or blocked advancement opportunities
  • Boredom from repetitive work ([07:11]–[09:49])
• Self-Reflection: Essential first step—analyzing what feels unsatisfying and why before taking action ([10:22]).

4. Practical Solutions for Getting Unstuck

A. Proactive Steps for Individuals

• Raise Your Hand: Communicate your desire for new challenges or responsibility to your manager. Don’t suffer in silence ([15:38]; [16:56]).
• Cross-Training and Rotations: Participate in internal “switcheroos” or rotational assignments to broaden skills ([12:22]; [13:28]).
• Embrace Discomfort: Growth happens outside your comfort zone, especially when learning new practice areas ([19:23]).
  • Reference: “If you’re not scared, it’s not worth doing.” – Ellen recalling advice from a CEO ([19:23])
• Leverage Your Network: Tap into networks like ACC, colleagues, or friends for support when learning new areas ([20:23]).

Quote:
“For anybody out there who’s afraid of tackling something … just break it down into little bites and figure out how to approach it and use your network, talk to people.”
— Ellen Yang [20:23]

B. Managerial & Leadership Tips

• Intentional Stretch: Managers should gently challenge their team members, helping them grow—even when it’s uncomfortable ([11:09]).
• Job Rotations as Engagement: Example: Taco Bell’s GC occasionally swapped lawyers’ assignments to develop new competencies and perspectives ([12:22]).

Quote:
“For many others, I think it’s helpful when managers challenge their direct reports … That’s where you really get engagement, loyalty and just appreciation.”
— Ellen Yang [11:09]

C. Filling Skill Gaps for Advancement

• Self-Audit: Map out required skills for desired senior roles (e.g., GC), identify your gaps ([22:17]).
• Creative Experience: Seek new practice areas, nonprofit board memberships, certifications (e.g., CIPP), or leadership functions outside legal ([22:17]–[25:48]).
• Take on Adjacent Functions: Legal leaders can seize opportunities outside the department (risk, compliance, sustainability) to round out their business acumen ([24:47]; [25:48]).

D. When Specific Advancement Isn’t Possible Internally

• External Development: Qualifications and practical experience can sometimes be built external to your job (volunteer boards, education) ([22:17]; [24:47]).

5. Returning to Private Practice: Reinvention and Growth

• Making a Major Move: Ellen discusses leaving in-house for a law firm after 17 years—a daunting but ultimately rewarding change ([27:56]).
• Lawyer “Lite” vs. Deep Practice: The in-house role focuses on solution-oriented advice; law firm work requires technical/legal rigor ([30:00]).
• Transferrable Skills: In-house empathy and business understanding enriches law firm client service ([32:06]), and deep knowledge of in-house challenges (budgeting, surprises) makes for a valued external advisor ([34:17]).
• Enjoying the Challenge: Continual reinvention and stretching help keep work fresh and fulfilling ([29:15]–[30:00]).

Quote:
“I try to relish in that. I really do try to lean in because that’s where I’m challenged personally. And while at times they may not like feeling that way, I always know at the end of the rainbow I’m better for it.”
— Ellen Yang [29:15]

6. Mindset Takeaways

• Lawyer Adaptability: Legal training makes attorneys inherently agile—capable of mastering new areas and reinventing themselves ([36:15]).
• Embracing Change: Disruption is hard, but growth is always possible; prior pivots (even between sectors like in-house → firm) are proof ([36:15]–[38:00]).
• Don’t Self-Pigeonhole: No one should feel “locked in”—career transformation is always an option, especially for lawyers ([36:15]).

Quote:
“Everybody has a new chapter in their professional … book, and nobody should feel like they’re pigeonholed. Sometimes it’s disruptive to make a big change in your life. But we’re lawyers, we are smart people, we’re adaptable and we can manage to — I feel like — almost every situation.”
— Ellen Yang [36:15]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Taboo of Career Malaise:
  “Who wants to go to a party … and somebody asks you, so how’s it going at work? You’re like, meh. … You’re going to be like the Debbie Downer at the party, right?”
  — Ellen Yang [02:31]

• On Gender Dynamics and Confidence:
  “[W]omen are much more inclined to not take something on unless they really know it or they feel confident they can do an amazing job … Men just write their name in.”
  — Ellen Yang [19:23]

• Career Rotations:
  “He would do a little switcheroo, kind of like wife swap. It’s lawyer swap.”
  — Ellen Yang [12:22]

• On Empathy as a Law Firm Lawyer:
  “When I talk to you on the phone, I just feel like you care so much and everything’s going to be okay.”
  — Ellen quoting a client [32:49]

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 02:31 | Why Ellen wrote the article/stuck at work is taboo | | 04:10 | In-house v. law firm myths; why both can get stuck | | 07:11 | The different forms “stuck” can take | | 10:22 | The importance of self-reflection before acting | | 11:09 | Management’s role in helping staff get unstuck | | 12:22 | Taco Bell’s “lawyer swap”/rotational practice | | 15:38 | Raising your hand for new experiences | | 19:23 | Overcoming fear of new areas (esp. for women) | | 20:23 | Importance of networks for learning and growth | | 22:17 | Strategies for filling gaps toward GC goals | | 24:47 | Taking on non-legal functions for career expansion | | 27:56 | Moving from in-house back to a law firm | | 29:15 | Embracing discomfort for long-term growth | | 30:00 | Lawyer “lite” v. law firm practice | | 32:06 | Applying in-house perspectives in firm client work | | 36:15 | Mindset for embracing career change | | 38:40 | Ellen’s “pump up” song |

Memorable Closing Questions

Pump-Up Song Tradition

• Ellen’s “pump up” song: Joy Division – “Love Will Tear Us Apart” ([38:40])
• Fun note: Her Spotify is now dominated by her teens’ music.

Final Takeaways

• Feeling stuck is normal—even for high-achieving lawyers—and can be addressed with intention and action.
• Opportunities for reinvention abound through proactive self-assessment, open communication, and targeted skill-building—inside and outside your current role.
• Managers must foster a dynamic team culture, and individuals shouldn’t be afraid to “raise their hand.”
• Legal professionals are uniquely equipped to reinvent and grow—career pivots can lead to renewed purpose and satisfaction.

Recommended Read:
Ellen Yang’s Bloomberg Law article: “The In-House Career Rut Is Real but You Can Stop Feeling Stuck” (linked in show notes).