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- [00:00]
A
As we move into the end of the year, it seems like everybody else's priority is fighting for number one on your to do list. The client wants their deal done, the project has to get across the finishing line by the end of the year. The holiday parties to attend, the presents to wrap, the travel to book. It's all just too much. And although everybody else wants your time, I'm going to encourage you to take a moment for yourself. I talk a lot about not sleepwalking through your career, not working on autopilot, but thinking intentionally about where you are and where you want to go. That's why I wanted to have this conversation with Ellen Yang. She wrote an article that really resonated with me called Stuck at Work. And in this conversation we break down what that means, what the mindset is, and how to get out of it. I thought it would be a great conversation for you as we move into the new year and you may think about how to turn a fresh page. Hope you enjoy it. Welcome to the Legal Department, a podcast for lawyers who want to learn, connect
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B
and grow their careers.
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A
I'm Stacey Bratcher. I'm a general counsel and I'm excited to share these conversations to help you level up in house.
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B
Hi, my name is Ellen Yang and I am a partner and general counsel at a boutique law firm called dto. A fun fact about me is that one time I entered a grilled cheese contest that's making not eating grilled cheeses. I tested out so many different grilled cheeses that I couldn't eat grilled cheeses for two years afterwards.
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A
On today's episode of the Legal Department, I'm excited to welcome Ellen Yang. She is a partner in general counsel at DTO Law. But before returning to a law firm, she spent most of her career in house at big companies. You'd know like Taco Bell. And we are going to talk about something that is not widely discussed among the in house crowd which is feeling stuck at work. And this episode grew out of Ellen's article for Bloomberg Law and called Stuck at Work. So hey Ellen, how are you?
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B
I'm good, thank you.
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A
Really excited to have this conversation. You posted about the article on LinkedIn. We know each other through some mutual friends but your post generated a lot of comment and engagement and that told me that this is something that a lot of people are thinking about.
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B
Yeah, I agree.
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A
So what inspired you to write the article?
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B
Well, there's so many things that people experience in their career that doesn't widely get talk about. I mean, who Wants to go to a party. When somebody asks you, so how's it going at work? You're like, meh. It's just not.
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A
You're, like, scanning the room looking for someone else to talk to.
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B
It's just not. You're going to be like the Debbie Downer at the party, right? So there's a lot of topics, I think, relating to people's profession, their career that doesn't get talked about. Maybe people might talk about it with their inner circles. You know, I got an inner circle of girlfriends, professional girlfriends, all in house, that I used to talk a lot about. And they made me feel better. But in general, they're kind of. I wouldn't say they're taboo, but they're just not something you talk about widely because you're probably admitting something about your current employment that you don't want to do it publicly. So I was approached by Bloomberg Law to write a column, and they asked me what I wanted to write about. Now there's so many practitioners out there in legal practice areas who do a great job. So I was like, you know, I. I don't know if I necessarily want to do that, but I feel like a lot of people come to me for advice, and I try to be very candid and honest with them. I give them the good, bad, and the ugly. And I was like, maybe there's something there, because I feel like this is an underserved area, one that's not spoken about often. So that's what I approach it. So I kind of. I approached it as I want to be the Carrie Bradshaw for the legal profession, but with a lot more clothes on and a lot more inexpensive, expensive clothes, unlike her brand names. I was telling you I might be dating myself. Cause I don't even know if people even know what Sex in the City is anymore.
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A
But obviously, you've got a friend in me. You've got a friend in me. Because that is definitely yes. I get the vibe, and I love the framing. It makes, I think, makes lawyering a lot more hip. Sound a lot more hip. But this feeling of being stuck. I was intrigued about it, I think, for a couple reasons. First of all, I think the grass is always greener. Second, so law firm lawyers, I think, have a perception that in house, lawyers have a very regular schedule. There's less demands. There's no. Yes. There's no billables, but it must be somehow easier. And I also think that people who are in house look at the general counsel and like, wow, that's such a prestigious role. And that person must be engaged every day and so exciting. They get to go mingle with the C suite and the board. And I think, as you and I have talked before, the grass is not greener. I mean, sometimes we all have a feeling of being stuck or bored or feeling uninspired. And so I want to talk a little bit about digging into your article, and we will link it in the show notes. But you observe that this is another phenomenon. Lawyers, I think in particular, when looking at their career, feel, well, there's nothing else I can do. This is what I am. What else would I do? How could I do anything differently? And so you probe that talk about why, first of all, why do you think that is? Why do you think lawyers in particular are just kind of in a rut?
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B
So every. I agree with everything you've said. And I think, look, a career is like. It's a trajectory. It's like a roller coaster. There are times where it moves fast and you're accelerating down the hill, and there are times are climbing, and then there's times of inertia where you are at the platform getting on and off. And I didn't go into the article here because it is a little more complex. But people also have different needs at different points in their life and in their career. I know when I was pregnant with my two kids, you know, that wasn't for me, the optimal time to be going around, interviewing around, because I was just trying to get out a pile of dirty diapers. So taking that part aside, lawyers, I mean, we are all trained to be overachievers, right? And we cannot sit still and because we experience, like, professional restlessness or anxiety. And in fact, I was just talking to some. A colleague who had been complaining to me that, you know, he's so busy, he's got a lot of billables, and he was trying to figure out how to balance it all. And then I talked to him recently and his calendar cleared up. And then he was. With all this newfound time, he was stressed that he wasn't busy enough.
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A
You know, my husband tells me all the time, because sometimes I'll come home and I'll be like, ugh. Like, you know, I don't know what to do. I'm unhappy or whatever. And he's like, you're not busy enough.
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B
Like, you.
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A
Like, it's like clockwork. He can tell, like, if there's something that it's like kind of a lull, he observes. And it's the same thing that you're talking about. Your friend, like, you feel kind of overwhelmed sometimes when it's super busy, but if it's slow, it's almost like that. I don't know, that billable anxiety, like, oh, God, I'm not gonna make my hours this month. I don't know. That's very interesting.
- [07:12]
B
It's funny. It's. I guess this is why lawyers also need therapists. Um, I don't know. But, you know, so we're sort of trained to always be looking at the next thing, always be developing, always to always be productive. But so going back to feeling stuck, it's what I mean by stuck. And it can be different for everybody, but it can mean in terms of your development, your professional expansion of the areas, your coverage areas, and your practice areas. For me, knowing my ambitions, I. Especially beginning and middle of my career, I was trying to be deliberate and to fill out my resume. So if I felt like there was an area of my resume that I didn't make any headway on and I would. Instead, I wasn't really adding new things, adding new projects, adding new practice areas, experiences to my resume, then I felt like I wasn't developing. And then I would feel stuck and make intentional moves to try to fill in those gaps. So that's one type of stuck. Another stuck, maybe advancement. Right. Especially in house. In some places, particularly when the legal team is leaner, you kind of need somebody to retire or to leave in order for you to advance in their place. And that can be tough, especially when you don't have a lot of openings or positioned above your level. Particularly with DGCs, you know, you need your GC to leave, and they may not. That may not happen. So, you know, that could also mean feeling stuck.
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A
It could also be you're tired of doing the same work over and over again. For sure. Mentioning repetitive, repetitive work. I always wonder about that because I'm. This is probably a personal thing and maybe we share this, that I'm happiest in the days that there's a lot of variety. Like, that's one of the things I like about the GC rules. To see the landscape and to not just do one thing. But I've also observed that some people have a lot of comfort in doing the same thing, which is people are different. I always tell my kids, people like different things. But yeah, so as you're saying there's a several variety of stuck.
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B
Yeah, agreed, 100%. Particularly if you're in a large organization, folks can be siloed and, you know, the company wants you to do that one thing, but that, I think it depends on your personality. So for me, when I was at Taco Bell, I was working on their commercial transactions, and so I pretty much ate, drank, breathed contracts all day. And I would have people come into my office and say, I don't know how you do this every single day. And I was like, it didn't bother me until everybody started saying that. Right, right. It's like, how do I do this every day?
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A
I used to think I had a great job until everyone told me it was boring.
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B
Yeah. So really it's less. You know, it's different for everybody, and it's more about not feeling challenged, engaged, or just fulfilled in your job. So, anyway, so going back. So feeling stuck sometimes takes a little bit of self analysis to figure out what you truly are feeling and why, and then only through that you can address it. But there are, like, so many things that people can do once they figure out what. Why they are feeling this way.
- [10:22]
A
Yeah, I want to really dig. I want to dig into that, because I do, you know, I talk to a lot, as you can probably imagine, talk to a lot of lawyers. And I'm somebody who's very inspired and motivated around professional development, and I love helping people do that, which is one of the reasons I do this show. But I encounter frequently with lawyers when we talk about, well, I can't do this, or I'm tired of this sort of a feeling of inertia or helplessness about, oh, there's nothing I could do. My GC is only 42. They're never gonna, you know, I'm never gonna get that chair. And so, well, what else am I supposed to do? So I wanna talk about. There really are things to do. And I think especially in house, there's a lot of different tactics and opportunities. So let's dig in to those.
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B
Yes. So I'll say this. You know, for leaders like you and others out there listening to your podcast, I just want folks to be sort of aware of this, cognizant that this happens, because I think as a manager and as a good leader, your job is not only to ensure that your employees are happy with what they're doing or they're, you know, satisfied, particularly if they've been there for a while. But also, I would argue to also challenge them a bit. You know, don't. You know, you will find some people who are like, you know, this is my job. I love doing it. I love. I'm the master in this domain, and. And that's fine. But for many others, I think it's helpful when managers challenge their direct reports because while it might be uncomfortable while doing that, at the end, they'll be happier, I think, and they'll be glad that they would have you to stretch them in ways they never would have imagined. And I think that's where you really get engagement, loyalty and just appreciation. And when you have employees who feel those things, they're so much more likely. I mean, studies have shown they are much more likely to stay in their job even when they could get a higher comp somewhere else.
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A
Yeah, you're. No, totally agree, totally agree.
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B
But so one example of that would be. This is from a manager's perspective. You know, I keep using Taco Bell as an example. Like the general counsel there a number of years back told me when I first started, occasionally, every, let's just say six, seven years, he would, you know, kind of mix things up. He would have the lawyers trade spots almost like musical chairs. And I thought, yeah, I could see your face, which is your jaw dropping. That's exactly the face. Like, are you crazy? He would do a little switcheroo, kind of like wife swap. It's lawyer swap. And you know, I thought he was nuts, as that was intriguing. But, you know, I think if you look aside from somebody's like, own personal development as a lawyer, I do think if you have different, if you've worn different hats and had different experiences, most often this comes from externally, from outside the organization. As a lawyer, when you have these different roles, you're able to see and analyze situations, problems, projects like from a much broader perspective, and you're able to spot many more issues. So I do see, like there's that benefit.
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A
Yeah. So be open because you're going to learn more, even if it's scary and uncomfortable to witcheroo.
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B
Yeah. And for the lawyers there, I mean, I think it's actually an amazing growth opportunity. Who does that? So I think the lawyers were kept engaged and learning and it did really, really stretch them in areas that they hadn't done before. And so, you know, attrition was low. I think though, when you have that buy in. And also, of course, you need to also have the mentality where even though you're switching roles, you still have a support network.
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A
Yeah. It's not like, oh, hey, go figure out Erisa law. Right. Like by yourself.
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B
I may change job if it was Erisa. But yes, that might be a good example where you can engage outside counsel because nobody should go through that brain damage. But yes. And also it's okay to make some mistakes. Early on I also met, I remember talking to an in house lawyer somewhere else and she said her law firm, I'm sorry, her in house department operated off of a ticketing system. So everybody was trained on pretty much all issues. And so, you know, when the ticket came in, it got assigned out and you had to handle it. And you know, to me I thought again, I thought that was crazy, but I could see the utility in it. And certainly if you had somebody go on leave of absence, you had cross training. So going back. So if again, if somebody's feeling like they are stuck or in a rut, you know, it's good to try to get to the source of what they're feeling. But there are so many things that we can do and some of them are easier than others, some of them require greater change than others. But you know, it's sometimes worth just listing them out so that way folks can remind themselves of their options. So I think it's good to raise your hand when at work just to have that conversation because a manager would be a fool to not want that conversation or to discourage it because you want to hire people who are ambitious, who are lifelong learners, who want to grow. I mean those are the type of people you want. So somebody's raising their hand and saying, hey, I'd love to. I've been doing this for a while, I'd love to expand my scope.
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Perfect.
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You know, that might even mean less, a little bit less work on your plate. They could transfer over, but it would provide so much for that person the opportunity.
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A
Yeah, I want to really underline that point because I think that we shouldn't be suffering in silence first of all. And I think your first point about know really do some self reflection and think about what it is that's bothering you. But if you don't open your mouth and tell somebody, it's just going to fester. And as you said, if you have a manager who's supportive, I mean the biggest pain in the neck for a manager is having to replace somebody. Like I don't think that line lawyers or folks out of a leadership role realize there's a big drag. It's finding the right fit, onboarding that person, developing the relationship. So there's the financial cost and just the friction and disruption in the team to lose somebody. So it may seem scary to raise your hand and say, I really don't want to do these commercial contracts anymore. I know I'm really good at it and I have happy clients but if I see one more of those come across my desk, I don't know what I'm going to do. Or oh, like, hey, I really want to learn employment law, which I think is one of the things you did. So maybe you could share that example. I think that's a really good, concrete, exciting example.
- [16:57]
B
So when I was at Public storage and I'd been there for probably like five years, really knew the regulatory landscape for self storage inside out because believe it or not, every state has their own Self Service Storage Facilities act and they're off by. It's basically like an eviction process. And so every state had their little nuance. But so once I had been doing that for a while and really knew the ins and outs and we could have a separate podcast episode maybe on. Not on this podcast, but a more salacious one about what goes on sometimes in self storage.
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I am intrigued.
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You.
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I mean we're going to put a bookmark in this conversation for sure.
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B
But yeah, talk about being a life of the party work at self storage. You got a lot of stories to tell. So, you know, I did raise my hand and I said, hey, you know, and thankfully my boss, who I need to write a post about this, he was so pivotal in my legal career to really set me up for success. His name is Amar Karuf and he now lives in Europe with the European sister company. He, he really encouraged me and everyone never would ever, you know, discourage me. So I didn't know any other way really because of his support. So. And he's the one who also told me to get involved with acc, which is also another example of what, what you can do, but I can go into second. So I raised my hand with him and he said, sure, let's have you. He's probably in his own mind was laughing, thinking, sucker. Okay, let's not into employment law.
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A
Right. Yeah, you've got this thing that you figured out. You got your job kind of manageable because you knew all the rules and oh, you want to come into a little more excitement every day.
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B
Yeah, that's why the way probably use the word excitement. Most of craziness.
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Yeah.
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But yeah. So, you know, I also started doing some marketing stuff and like sweepstakes contests, but you know, those were kind of lower volume. And then I started doing employment work and there's so much employment work, especially in California.
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A
Let me ask because I think one of the barriers that people feel like to say, you know, well, I've been a commercial contracts lawyer or whatever for seven years, five Seven years and wow, I'd love to learn employment, but that's really scary. We were sort of talking about this before we got on that. We're used to being very competent and feeling like we know what we're doing. And so it can be uncomfortable to think about branching into a new area. So how did you deal with that?
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B
The CEO of a company once said, which I really. And I think it's actually kind of a common phrase, but I really relish in it. He said, if you're not scared, it's not worth doing. And I try to remind myself of that because I feel like I'm going to stereotype here. Women are much more inclined to not take something on and unless they really know it or they feel confident they can do an amazing job. You know, there's that study, you know, like, women don't apply to jobs unless they can check like 8 out of 10 requirements. Whereas others, men just write their name in. Yeah, beating heart, got that check. Right. So I have to remind myself that all the time. And then I tell myself, think of all the other areas of the law that I didn't know, but yet I now have. I know really well. So I could do this. I mean, it's as. Lawyers are trained to be methodical in their approach, to understand something.
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A
Yeah, we're good learners.
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B
Absolutely. And we're smart and we're analytical. So for anybody out there who's afraid of tackling something, you know, if you get an assignment and it's totally an area you've never done before, just break it down into little bites and figure out how to approach it and use your network, talk to people. That's where networks like the association of Corporate Counsel, many other organizations out there, or just your friends, your colleagues will help out and give you the lay of the land, give you an approach. I mean, these are untapped resources who are happy to help you and you're
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A
not expected to be perfect. I think that's the other thing that, like, especially if you move from an area where you are very competent and just could do the job in your sleep, to do something new, it where you're not going to be a master right out the gate, I think is kind of intimidating.
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B
Yes, I agree. And there's nothing wrong with doing little checkpoints too right. To say, hey, am I on the right path? Or does this sound reasonable to give you some confidence as you, as you're learning?
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A
Okay, so learning new practice areas, raising your hand. I think that's, I mean, that is very Solid take to the bank advice. And I think as a manager I would be thrilled. It would make my day for someone on my team to come to me and say, hey Stacy, I would really like to learn this or do this. I mean that would be. It would be a gift to me as you. We talked a little bit at the opening about DGCs or sort of senior level management level lawyers who might be stuck because the next seat up is occupied by somebody who has no intention of retiring or leaving. And that is a very clear snag. That's quite obvious as a snag. However, there's guaranteed opportunities for that person to grow even in a company with sitting gc. So would love to hear if what your thoughts are on that. I have my own ideas, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.
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B
Yes. So if somebody has aspirations to be a general counsel, I would have them do a little more self reflection, maybe talk to some people. If they know what industry they want to go to, chances are they probably need to have certain buckets of practice areas, skill set, whatever that they need on their resume so those areas are not filled out. So for example, myself, you know, I didn't have as strong of transactional experience. I started a litigator as a Quinn Emanuel and then had a litigation and field operations at Public Storage. You know, very much, you know, business interfacing as well as litigation practice areas and then did employment. But I didn't have as much transaction experience. So I knew I had that gap in my resume. And so I went to a company where I really filled that gap, Taco Bell. So I just say look at if you know you want to be gc, look at your skill sets, your areas and see if there are gaps and how you can best fill that. Because sometimes you can fill those out internally in the company, which is great. So if you were the flip side, maybe you were doing more advice, the product counseling work advice, but like less so on the interfacing with business colleagues or whatever. Then you can try to see maybe you can switch around a little bit internally to build out some of those areas. If not, you can get some experience externally first to help build out that resume. So that could be board work, whether it be nonprofit boards, you know, there's also public boards I started doing. I had been volunteering with the organization way back when and raised my hand to see if I could get on their board. It was called Read to a Child Los Angeles. So I can get some board experience and I could check that off on my Resume and so that way you could show future employers like you have experience working with, communicating with a board, talk about high level strategy, long term planning and the like and the sort of process of working with the board. And if there's other areas such as, let's say you want to fill out some privacy, data security, I mean there are external like certification opportunities that you can get. I saw that gap in my resume or you know, I had some experience but I really wanted to show that my experience was robust. So I got CIPP US certified and I did it sooner versus later because I knew there were going to be many more laws passed. I was like, I got to do it when the list is somewhat short.
- [24:47]
A
So I think those are all great. The other suggestion I would have and something that, that I didn't necessarily raise my hand for but did kind of help me grow out more of my practical skills was taking on a function outside of the legal department. Because if you've been at a company for a while and people know you to be smart, competent, you know, practical business partner, they might want your help on another function. So I, when I was at usc our, we restructured some of our risk functions and I got risk management and that is definitely legal adjacent. But as part of that I learned about insurance. I placed our insurance tower. I helped manage osip which is a owner secured insurance product. I mean those are great skills and they serve me in this role. And it was something that I could fill out on my resume to show how I was sort of an executive caliber attorney even though at the time I was a deputy or associate general counsel.
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B
That's a great example. No wonder you weren't bored.
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A
Never.
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B
Yeah, USC had, yeah, USC had a lot of stuff. A lot of stuff.
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A
Yes.
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B
So yes, I totally agree. I was talking to, in fact we had a panel through ACC SoCal with the general counsel of Epson because she took on sustainability in addition to, I think also audit reports to her. But sustainability was a big one. As well as the general counsel for ECOS and the GC for he's now the GC at Apollo Loco, but back then he was at Jacuzzi. They all took on sustainability and how they approached it. But they said it was such a great growth opportunity and it really did, you know, given like the requirement like the legal and regulatory requirements. It did make sense that legal take on that function for many companies didn't want to if they didn't have a standalone function with its own separate executive and how it really gave them amazing growth opportunity and also kind of a mission.
- [26:49]
A
Yeah, something a little deeper.
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B
Yes. So I agree. And you know, also legal will frequently take on the people team, sometimes in addition to risk and. Yeah, so those are all great examples of where you can really show up and raise your hand, add value to the company, yet give you a broader experience that may help with somebody's aspirations to try to move on to whatever their next phase is in their career.
- [27:16]
A
Yeah. Well, on the topic of phases of career and you let off with that, you've changed from, you've moved from an in house role and now you're at a lot back at a law firm. And that is so intriguing. I want to hear all about that. I think that many of us think about again, back to the grass is always greener. Oh. Like some people when you're, when I think when you're in a law firm, you're like, oh, I'd love to be at a company because then I could make sure they follow the advice or I get to see the project all the way through. And sometimes when you're in house, you're like, oh, it'd be so nice to be at a law firm because I could just give the advice and then not worry about it. Right, right. So let's talk about your transition. What's it been like?
- [27:56]
B
It's been really good. It's been at times uncomfortable. I think we talked about this at the outset because it's, I mean, I haven't been at a firm for 17 years, so it's been a minute. So I'm comfortable in terms of like there's a learning curve. I could at this point in my career. I knew if I went back. So, you know, I was in transition. My last company was wound down and I was in the market and I was interviewing around and I knew like generally I could go into any company and just immediately start adding value, contributing because I'd done it at, been there, done that for different companies and even in different industries. Like being in a different industry did not scare me. So I was trying to figure out what challenge I really wanted. Where did I really feel like I wanted to be challenged? Particularly because I'm not a spring chicken anymore. And so I kind of figured wherever I'm going to end up, you know, maybe I had one more play, but I didn't want to. I didn't see this as being like an interim thing. So I wanted to make sure I had enough there for the long haul. Like enough that would keep me really interested, growing and learning that I Felt like I would be satisfied for a little while. And that's hard. That's hard to determine what you, what really is going to, you know, fill my inner cup.
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A
Yeah. You don't have a crystal ball. What the future is going to hold.
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B
That's right. And so in that sense, coming back to affirm, I knew it was a much bigger hill to climb and I would, I anticipate I would feel uncomfortable, but I try to relish in that. I really do try to lean in because that's where I'm challenged personally. And while at times they may not like feeling that way, I always know at the end of the rainbow I'm better for it. So it's been good in terms of, you know, I hadn't really practiced, like really practice law in a while because I think part of what makes a good in house lawyer very effective, their company is being a good business advisor, partnering with the business, trying to make, figure out, be creative and figure out a way to get something across the finish line.
- [30:01]
A
Yeah, I always, I always say I'm lawyer light. Like you're not in the, you know, you're not pulling out your Rudder guide or your statutes, the civil code or whatever. You kind of know the law at a high level if you're not a specialist. And then you try to figure out how to solve the problem and accomplish the business goal. And so you're not steeped in that, reading cases and statutes and regulations all the time. So I call it lawyer lite. But at a law firm, I don't pay you for being lawyer lite. Like, I want somebody that actually knows instead of just making it up like many of us do.
- [30:36]
B
You go with your intuition a lot.
- [30:38]
A
Yeah.
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B
And I'll tell you, Stacy, having now been back at the law firm, there's no more hardbound copies of Rudder anymore. Books are probably for show. I mean, literally, they have file cabinets and I open it up and they're empty.
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A
There's no. We just had these. They're more of an accessory.
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B
It's staging. I asked somebody for a hanging folder and they literally had no idea what I was talking about. Yeah. So no, I agree. So it's been fun. Like, I kind of missed practicing law. I missed debating about the nuances, you know, strategy of like, you know, what angle to take. You know, especially litigation is kind of like a game of chess a little bit. I really miss. And I really missed legal writing, persuasive writing.
- [31:23]
A
So instead of just emails. Yeah, I read a kick ass email.
- [31:29]
B
Slack. Well, you know, My last couple is very slack, so it's like picking out the perfect emoji. Yeah. So I miss that long form writing and it's. So that's been really fun. I mean having sitting around a table and debating about which argument to raise and which to put in a footnote.
- [31:53]
A
Probably didn't use too many footnotes at Public Storage. What about. I'm curious as to whether your in house skills have helped and have, have, have you been able, have you used those or is in house really that different? Is that really different?
- [32:06]
B
100%. So I'll give you a few examples for a smaller company because I've been in that role where, you know, it's privately held company, a little bit smaller, owner started it, you know, owner knows all the employees. It's very personal. Any sort of lawsuits would be an affront to that person's character and how they conduct business and how they are as a business owner. So they take it very personally. I've been in that role where I'm in house and having to explain all this and deal with the emotion behind it. And so one of my clients said to me relatively recently, he said he had switched counsel and now uses us. And he said to me, ellen, when I talk to you on the phone, I just feel like you care so much and everything's going to be okay.
- [32:50]
A
Oh, what a high compliment.
- [32:51]
B
I made me feel so much better. Yeah. I told him it will be, we'll get you there. But you know, I guess it's because I lead in that situation. I also lead with empathy because I know that it's important to him. Yeah. And he's built this. And like literally I, I visited his headquarters. When we walked around, he stopped and talked to all of the employees, asked them about the kids soccer game, asked them about how the wife was doing or the like. And a person who has those relationships with their employees, they're, they take a lot of pride in their business. They don't, they don't run a shoddy business generally. And so I think I lead with empathy, which I think he appreciates, rather than it's just business. So that's, that's sort of one example. Now for bigger clients, I told them, one very big client, they're in house counsel or interfacing with. I said, so I read your outside counsel guidelines. I know we have to submit budgets on this day and updates on this date. Just wanted to understand what level and the person was like, I might as well have just. The music stopped playing, the record stopped and it was like you read our outside council guidelines to a T and you know, our due dates and you want to. You actually bring up the budget in advance. I was like, yes, well, I've managed those cases before and understand how critical having a accurate budget is and how you rely on that and your department is held accountable to that. And, you know, she was just taken aback because she. No outside counsel had ever asked her about.
- [34:17]
A
Yeah, they're like, what? Yeah, I just signed it. It's part of our agreement, whatever.
- [34:22]
B
So I think she sort of appreciated the detail. Part of. Of us handling the matter and how felt assured knowing that, you know, look, I know in house you never want surprises, whether that be surprises for something that gets sprung up in the lawsuit or, you know, the fact that you're going to be over budget.
- [34:40]
A
So you've been in their chair, you know what's important to them. And so you can. On the client service side, you can deliver. I wonder, first example about the empathy, I mean, that should be available to law firm lawyers. I do wonder though, because we've been in the business, right. And you work so closely with the, the operators or the senior executives, et cetera, and you know, what their jobs are. I'm wondering if your approach to your first client was a little more informed as a. Because I think, I think an out, an outside counsel can certainly show empathy, but maybe not in the same way that you were or maybe not perceiving the same things that you were.
- [35:21]
B
I think that's right, because I've worked for privately held companies that has like maybe one or just a few owners. I know the pride of ownership they take, they have in that company versus I've also worked for public companies and for that it's particularly if you have a CEO that's a. The former cfo. It's a numbers game. So, yeah, very differently. You have to look at it from the big picture numbers game, you could win the battle but lose the war. And so for that situation, I wouldn't go in with empathy, I would go in with numbers. Right, exactly. Whereas for a smaller company where you have that pride of ownership from the company owner, you can't just lead with numbers. You can't, because they take this personally. So you have to acknowledge that. And because sometimes they not hear the comments like, you know, we're going to spend more in attorney's fees than it would cost to settle. How does that make any sense?
- [36:15]
A
Yeah, right.
- [36:16]
B
You're like, well, you have to understand they're not ready to settle. You have to get them there and show them. So there are different abilities, approaches. But again, like, I think this is an example of how, first of all, you know, I feel like everybody has a new chapter in their professional, their book, and nobody should feel like they're pigeonholed. Sometimes it's disruptive to make a big change in your life. But we're lawyers, we are smart people, we're adaptable and we can manage to. I feel like almost every situation, heck, we made it through Covid being. Talk about being. Getting new things thrown at you at all different angles. And we survived that and adapted to it and have made changes since then to the workplace. So I think from a personal level, anybody can really take that brave move and they'll adapt and make a change. And so in my situation, I made this change and I'm able to incorporate all of my skills and try to apply it to whatever new application that I'm currently in and try to be the best lawyer that I can be. And so that was sort of the mindset I had in going back to private practice. I mean, one of the general counsel of the firm, people sometimes ask me, oh, what's it like being general counsel for a bunch of lawyers? Like, actually, it's the easiest thing.
- [37:35]
A
Oh, wow.
- [37:36]
B
Show them one little bit of risk, they're like, take care of it. Fine. So conversation done. So that's very easy. But on the other side, practicing law again, having some clients, it's really, you know, I get to be the outside counsel. I always appreciate in.
- [37:51]
A
Yeah, that's awesome.
- [37:53]
B
So that's awesome. Again, you know, people ask, are you. Is this where you're gonna land and then eventually retire? I don't know.
- [38:00]
A
I don't know.
- [38:01]
B
But that's okay. I'm like, I'm having a blast while I'm doing it now, and that's what matters.
- [38:05]
A
Yeah, that's awesome. I love you're just so many examples of how to reinvent your career. And although the being a lawyer has its drawbacks, I think it opens up so many opportunities. There's more opportunities. I feel like there are more opportunities with a law degree and having practiced law than many other careers. So. Well, onto a lighter, lighter question. The last question. I ask everybody this because I use music to get myself pumped up for the day. What is your pump up song? So. And I have. I have the tigers off limits so
- [38:41]
B
that you can have the tigers. So recently my Spotify account has been usurped by my two teenage kids. Oh, so my algorithm is so messed up. I blame them.
- [38:56]
A
So.
- [38:56]
B
But probably when I thought about this. So what I'm trying to say is I don't get to play the music I want to play in the car anymore. I like last on the totem pole of who gets to. You know, it's probably my kids first, actually. My kids and my husband battle it out and I'm last. So. But the song that really, when I listen to it and it sort of gets me in the zone would be probably Joy Division, A Love Will Tear Us Apart, which is probably a little surprising, but I feel like that song, you know, kind of puts me back in time. You know, everyone says music is the fabric of life. It puts me back in time and where I could sort of drop my head back and forth without getting a neck pain that lasts a week. And pumped up for whatever I was gonna go out to that night. Awesome.
- [39:43]
A
Well, thank you so much. This is a great conversation. Ellen's article in Bloomberg Law, which I'll link in the show notes, is called the In House Career Rut Is Real but yout Can Stop Feeling Stuck. Ellen, thanks so much for being here.
- [39:54]
B
Thank you, Stacy. You're amazing.
- [39:56]
A
Thanks. Hey, thanks for joining me today in the legal department department. If you like the show, would you please follow, like and subscribe. That helps other listeners to find the show. And if you're really inspired, you can rate and review on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you get podcasts. For more information about the show, check out our website, legaldepartmentpod.com Thanks.