← The Life Coach School Podcast
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- [00:01]
Brooke Castillo
You are listening to the Life Coach School podcast with Brooke Castillo, episode number 522.
- [00:07]
Cara Lowenthal
Welcome to the Life Coach School podcast, where it's all about real clients, real problems, and real coaching. And now, your host, master coach instructor, Brooke Castillo.
- [00:22]
Brooke Castillo
Oh, my goodness, it's a big day today. I have one of my bestie besties on the podcast today, and, you know, she's my favorite because she's so funny, but she has written a book that is so damn good. And that's what we're talking about today. Please welcome Cara Lowenthal to the podcast. This is like your third time on track.
- [00:47]
Cara Lowenthal
I think it should be like.
- [00:49]
Brooke Castillo
I think it's like a record. You're, like, the most. Do you think? I hope so.
- [00:54]
Cara Lowenthal
I sure. Amazing.
- [00:55]
Brooke Castillo
I love having you on. It's like, I was seriously so excited to talk to you today. I was, like, giddy. So today we're talking about Cara's book, take back your brain. First of all, this book is out now. Go get it. It's amazing. Like, seriously amazing. I rarely say a book is amazing. That's probably a lie. There's a lot of amazing books. This is one of them people are gonna like.
- [01:20]
Cara Lowenthal
And she read my book, so that's probably lie.
- [01:23]
Brooke Castillo
But this book really is amazing. It's so awesome. And we're gonna talk about money during this podcast because it's actually. This is a little side note. It's kind of funny. I get feedback a lot from my team where they're like, we do talk about money a lot. Like, maybe we should not talk about money so much. Brooke, you're always talking about money and how much money you wanna make and all this stuff. Maybe we should not talk so much about money. And so I decided to do a special topic, like class inside of scholars, and I let them pick what the topic was. Money was it, buddy. It was like 90% of everyone on the call wanted to talk about money. So when we were talking about your book, which talks about a lot of amazing things, money was the topic that. I love your take on it. I love how you talk about it in this book. I think everyone needs to read the way you talk about it, especially if you're a woman. So that's what we're going to talk about today. But first, will you just introduce yourself for if someone's is our first time listening to the podcast, tell us a little bit about you, and tell us a little bit about your book process.
- [02:24]
Cara Lowenthal
In addition to being one of Brooke's besties, which is really you know, bestie, besties. What other identity do I need? My name is Cara Lowenthal. I am a former women's rights litigator and academic who became a life coach. I like to call it the Ivy League to life coach pipeline. And now I teach women how to identify the way that society has taught them to think about themselves and how to reprogram, rewire their brains to kind of get the patriarchy out of their brains. Is that what you asked me? Who am I? What do I do?
- [02:55]
Brooke Castillo
I think that's a perfect introduction. And then why did you write the book?
- [02:59]
Cara Lowenthal
Oh, why did I write the book? That was a good question. Well, first of all, you know, if you have Jewish parents, then, like, you have to write a book at some point if you're. Especially if you're gonna be a life coach. Like, that's. You could at least get a New York Times bestseller to make. Make them all feel better about.
- [03:11]
Brooke Castillo
Least be legit.
- [03:12]
Cara Lowenthal
At least be. At least be an author also. No, I wrote the book because when I came to coaching, I obviously, this is how I met you. I was trained by you. I went through your school. And, you know, when you start coaching, you're basically just, like, reiterating what you were taught. You're just kind of like a little, you know, chatgpt. You're just spitting it back out. And then over the years, my work had really kind of evolved and grown, and I had developed this whole theory about how society impacts women's brains and gathered a lot of evidence through coaching on it. And I have a podcast called unfuck your brain. But, you know, a podcast, as you know from yours, it's sort of like layers of sediment that build up over time, right? It's like, yeah, it's just like, whatever, wherever you're teaching or thinking is at a given moment is like, what's immortalized in the podcast. And it's not, you know, it's not the most, like, organized and concise way of learning something because it's sort of over time. So I really wanted to write a book for a couple of reasons. One, to sort of put everything in one place in the perfect order.
- [04:08]
Brooke Castillo
Oh, good.
- [04:09]
Cara Lowenthal
Everything that I had created so that there's like this one stop shop for. Here's the whole theory, front to back. Here's all the areas and how it impacts your life. Here's all the exercises you need to do. Like, everything's all in one place. And because, shockingly, there are some people who don't listen to podcasts, apparently Which I think is so rude. Very strange. But they do exist, I've heard. And so I wanted to reach people who are not in the podcast world, who aren't in the life coaching world.
- [04:36]
Brooke Castillo
Yeah.
- [04:36]
Cara Lowenthal
And sort of spread the work. I'm very mission driven. So for me, this is like, I'll be done when every woman on earth has heard this information or I'm dead, whichever one comes first.
- [04:46]
Brooke Castillo
That's such a great way of describing it because, like, what episode are you on in your podcast? Do you know?
- [04:50]
Cara Lowenthal
Like, in the three 30s, I think.
- [04:52]
Brooke Castillo
Yeah. So it's like, instead of having to listen to 330 podcast episodes, I can read a book, like, and it's going to be so much more concise. That's really. What a gift. I love it. I love this book so much. I think I agree with you that every person needs to read it. Not just every woman, every person needs to read it.
- [05:11]
Cara Lowenthal
So we were just talking about how my. My partner, who is a straight white dude from Minnesota, like, as was reading the book, and he's like, this sounds a lot like me. I really identify with a lot of what's in here, so.
- [05:22]
Brooke Castillo
Right. Brains. Okay. So one of the things that I love about your work, first of all, I love that you've taken kind of some foundational truths that you've learned, like, through all of your individual studies with your teachers and then created like, your own body of work. This is such a beautiful thing. And one of the things that you talk a lot about is how we are socialized to think certain things. And I would love for you to just unpack that a little bit. Like, what does that mean, socialized? What does that word mean?
- [05:54]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah. So if you think about when you're born, you don't know very much. You have some instinctive drives, like babies know to try to nurse instinctively.
- [06:04]
Brooke Castillo
Yeah.
- [06:04]
Cara Lowenthal
Right. As you grow up, you learn from your parents, from cartoons, from the books your, you know, daycare person reads you from interactions with other people. Then you go to school, you start consuming media, maybe you read books. So you're learning constantly what it means to live in our society. And that means it's everything from, like, you're supposed to wear clothes when you leave the house. Like, that's socialization. You've learned from society that you can be naked inside by yourself, but you're supposed to put on clothes when you go outside.
- [06:33]
Brooke Castillo
Right.
- [06:33]
Cara Lowenthal
Unless you're a nudist or something. Right. You learn, like, what foods your culture eats. You learn kind of what the different social and cultural roles are like, who's a teacher, who's a father, who's a mother, who's a postman. It's like that Richard Scarry book that we read when I was growing up, which was like the people with all the jobs. Right. So you're constantly learning from society. And a lot of the stuff you learn is really helpful. Like toilet training is socialization. That's helpful.
- [07:00]
Brooke Castillo
Yeah. I mean, so you're learning what normal is.
- [07:02]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, just like how the world works. Yeah, how the world works. What you're supposed to think, like, we are pro ice cream and anti murder. Like, that's socialization. Right. Like what's good or bad? But we're also learning what are you supposed to be like. Right. And that starts to break down along. We get different messages based on different identities. So we learn that like men and women are different and this is what men are like and this is what women are like. Right. Or we learn, you know, people of color are like this and white people are like this. So we have all these sort of biased belief systems that are built into our society and we absorb those. And, you know, I think sometimes it's almost harder to recognize now because a lot more of it is sort of implicit or subtle. Like, used to be you'd be born if you were a woman, people would be like, okay, so you're not going to need to know how to read and you can't vote and you need to get married and your husband will be in charge of you. And it's like, all right, that's pretty straightforward. But now, right, like we have legal, social, political rights. And so we're not taught that directly. We're not literally told, hey, because you're a woman, you're also feeble minded and need a man to be in charge of you, which is what you used to just literally be told. So there was no mystery about it.
- [08:14]
Brooke Castillo
Yeah, go find a man, hurry up. Yeah, right.
- [08:16]
Cara Lowenthal
Like, you know your father's gonna be in charge of you until you get married because you can't make your own decisions. That was just a very clear thing a person would say out loud to you right now.
- [08:24]
Brooke Castillo
Not that long ago.
- [08:25]
Cara Lowenthal
Not that long ago.
- [08:26]
Brooke Castillo
Yeah.
- [08:27]
Cara Lowenthal
Now most of us are not hearing that explicitly. Like they're not teaching that in school. But our society, I think of turning society as like, it's like turning a tanker ship. It doesn't turn immediately. So, like, yes, we're no longer mostly saying that out loud except for like some terrible parts of Twitter or whatever. Twitter is now Reddit. Most people are not saying that out loud. Yeah, but it's still, some of these beliefs are still reflected when you look around society and you just look at like, how many women are CEOs, how many people of color are in the government, who tends to be in charge of the money in your household, whose job is more respected, like, what genders and what races and ethnicities are more doctors or more nurses? Like, you just absorb still that there's this bias in society and you get certain messages about, like, who you kind of are allowed to be or should be based on who you are.
- [09:17]
Brooke Castillo
Yeah.
- [09:17]
Cara Lowenthal
And that all that shit gets into your brain. So that's socialization.
- [09:21]
Brooke Castillo
Right. And I think it's like, I teach a lot on possibility and like, how do we come up with ideas about what's possible for us? Right. And I use the example where I, I say, like, I think most of us are picking out of a, you know, box of crayons with six different colors when really there's, you know, bajillions of colors in the world to choose from. Right. It's like a decillion is actually the proper term of how many colors there are. It's ridiculous. And. But where do we get, you know, the six colors from? Like, what, how do we know, like, if you're a woman especially, like, how do you know, like, what are my options? What's possible for me? What should I look out to maybe be doing with my life in the world? And until I started really studying my own biases, like, I didn't actually understand, like how much just movies and TV shows that aren't, you know, like you said, they're not saying, now girls, notice you're not the one going to work here, you're the one at home. Right. It's like. But that's what we're seeing constantly, right? And when it comes to money, I am fascinated by not being able to really name in a movie or TV show, like very few women who are successful and wealthy and like decent human beings. Right.
- [10:48]
Cara Lowenthal
What we learn is like the one on one Dalmatians. It's like Cruella.
- [10:52]
Brooke Castillo
Evil. Evil. And that's not just for women, that's for men too. There's, there's very few examples of like kind hearted, wonderful, uber wealthy people, you know, on TV shows. Like most of the rich people we see on TV shows even now are train wrecks, men.
- [11:07]
Cara Lowenthal
But at least some of them can be like superheroes, right? Like Batman was like the right. Cruella Deville is like, well, who knows? She probably murdered her husband, She's a widow, and she just breeds dogs and wants to skin them. That's what a rich woman looks like.
- [11:21]
Brooke Castillo
Right, right. And so even though nobody's ever sat down and like, taught us that that's going into our brain, and it's also just not presenting us with the opportunities that I think are so available to us now. So when I think about money, I think about that a lot. And I try to be someone that talks about money in a different way. And I know you do too. And I remember, you know, Amy Porterfield's a great example was, you know, she talked about making a million dollars in a year. And I almost lost my mind. Because Amy Porterfield is a good human, that's a good person, and she's nice and she makes a million dollars a year. It was like a crazy, like, thing went off of my brain. And so it made me really realize this impact. And so when you say in your, the title of your book, you say take back your brain, who are we taken aback from?
- [12:16]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, I mean, I think that what's so sneaky is that I always say, like, if the thoughts that you learned from society came out in your head in like a male announcer voice, then you would kind of recognize that they weren't yours. Right. Like, if you were walking through your day and your brain was like, women don't know how to make financial decisions, then you would, like, know it wasn't you. But that's not what happens because it all gets absorbed and it comes out in your own voice in your head. So what you hear is, I don't know, I don't really understand the stock market. It seems really complicated. I better like, hire some 23 year old named Chad who probably knows nothing to tell me what to do. Because men are responsible and they understand money. Right.
- [12:55]
Brooke Castillo
And they're good at math.
- [12:56]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, yeah, math, right. Money is math and they're good at math. Although any woman, any woman you met who lived through the 90s can do the calorie count of an entire meal in her head and then divide it by the portion serving size. So we can also do that.
- [13:08]
Brooke Castillo
Amen.
- [13:09]
Cara Lowenthal
But in the book, I talk about three money lies that women are taught. And the first one is that money is for men, that men are the ones who understand money, that men are the ones who make money. That money is something that men give to women, you know, reward them for good behavior or, you know, for being attractive or whatever it is. And I mean, the studies show that actually Women make better investment decisions because they are more careful and like, analyze risk better. And they're not so convinced of their own genius all the time. But nevertheless, women believe, and women are taught to believe this. And there's, I mean, horrifying slash amazing studies of like, media aimed around finances. And the financial media that's aimed at men is about, like, building wealth and investing and taking risk. It's like teaching them how to generate money. And the media that's aimed at women is all about budgeting. It's how to be thrifty, it's how to save money. And it's all coming from like, this is how the socialization still shows up. So it used to be that legally women, especially married women, couldn't make their own money. Any money they made belonged to their husbands. And most women were not. At least, you know, this obviously depends on place. It depends on your demographic group, a lot of different things. But overall, especially in the sort of like white middle to upper class women who tend to be like, tend to dominate that the like, social norms or conversation. A housewife got her husband made the money, you got a certain amount, and like, you're being good with money meant you're good at managing the budget of the money someone else gives you. And that's still what shows up. Obviously, women of color have always had to work outside the home. Poor women, other women in other marginalized communities. But that's kind of the ethos of still, the way we talk about money is like, and it's also, I mean, to me it totally reeks of diet culture. Also. It's like, women are always being encouraged to like, restrict and be small and be careful and don't do anything pleasurable and don't do anything fun and don't do, don't be excessive. Don't, you know, nobody's saying to men, like, do you really need that new golf club? I mean, maybe you should just give up a golf club a week and then you can become a house owner.
- [15:15]
Brooke Castillo
Or like, maybe you should just practice more, right?
- [15:18]
Cara Lowenthal
Maybe you don't need that expensive. Why are you driving that car? Is it because you don't feel good about yourself? Like, nobody's saying any of that to men, right?
- [15:25]
Brooke Castillo
Oh, that's so interesting. And like, as you were talking, I was thinking about this. It's like all of this is happening in the media and I'm imagining that there's even women that are like, recreating this nonsense without even realizing. Totally, right? We're all like, part of this and we're learning from our mothers who learned from their mothers who have been exposed to all of this. So it's like, how do we, like, get that?
- [15:49]
Cara Lowenthal
Hello?
- [15:50]
Brooke Castillo
Did you notice? Like, maybe that's not true. Maybe. And. And this is what people say to me all the time. Because when I talk about, I say it, like, in purposefully jarring ways. Like, I say, I love money, I want to be rich, and people, like, lose their minds because it's so unique for some.
- [16:08]
Cara Lowenthal
I think that's also gendered, right? Because so there's like this overlap of what we're taught is virtuous. Right. It's like, money is not virtuous and wanting money makes you a bad person, et cetera. But, like, that really gets enforced on women more than on men. Right. Most men out there who want to make a lot of money, I don't feel like they have a lot of people in their comments.
- [16:27]
Brooke Castillo
They're just providing for their families.
- [16:29]
Cara Lowenthal
They're just innovators. They're successful. They're right.
- [16:32]
Brooke Castillo
They're just innovators.
- [16:33]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, I lost my mind. I was trying to get my Google Knowledge panel updated. And, you know, Gary Vee says, like, American businessman, like, Tony Robbins has, like, life coach. Like, okay, I'm not quite as well known as those people, but it's not chopped liver, as we would say either. Like, I run a, you know, multimillion dollar business. I have a podcast with 50 million downloads. So I like, submitted first. It just said I was a lawyer, and I was like, that's out of date. So I submitted, like, here's my link to my book contract with, you know, here's contract. Here's my link to my book with Penguin Random House. Here's my link to my top ranked podcast, blah, blah, blah. And you know what Google spat back in my lifestyle panel?
- [17:04]
Brooke Castillo
Oh, my lifestyle guru. Wow.
- [17:08]
Cara Lowenthal
I was like, calm the fuck on.
- [17:10]
Brooke Castillo
Like, oh, look to society to see who you are.
- [17:14]
Cara Lowenthal
Like, that is.
- [17:15]
Brooke Castillo
So I'm surprised you just say influencer.
- [17:17]
Cara Lowenthal
Right? I just house life. Like, but, like, that was, like, so classic. I was like, really?
- [17:23]
Brooke Castillo
Wow.
- [17:23]
Cara Lowenthal
Published, author, podcaster, business owner, entrepreneur. I'm a lifestyle guru. And you know what? That shit's done by an algorithm because I looked into it. And so it's like our biases infiltrate the algorithm also. But this is a perfect example. If a woman, if a man runs a multimillion dollar business and has a top podcast and a book deal, I don't think that his Google author, his Google panel says lifestyle guru, you know, what's so interesting?
- [17:48]
Brooke Castillo
Now I'm gonna have to go to chat GPT and ask to talk about money as if it were a man and to talk about money as if it were a woman. That I bet.
- [17:56]
Cara Lowenthal
Oh, my God.
- [17:57]
Brooke Castillo
Fascinating.
- [17:58]
Cara Lowenthal
It's gonna be horrifying because people will.
- [18:00]
Brooke Castillo
Say, like, it's just not polite to talk for women. Right. It's not polite.
- [18:05]
Cara Lowenthal
Who says that to men? Whoever says anything to men about being polite.
- [18:08]
Brooke Castillo
Can you imagine?
- [18:09]
Cara Lowenthal
Don't be put. Could you not make us jokes? That's just what we're just asking. Could you not? Right. Like, and this is also historical context. Like, women were supposed to be virtuous. Women were supposed to be, like, good ones. So what I always say is, like, look at who benefits from the story. Right. Are all those men in power who are telling you not to care too much about money, are they giving away all their money and power and becoming monks? Not usually. So, like, who is benefiting and who is not when you're told to sort of self enforce and self impose, like, restriction and being small and not caring about these worldly things while they like, run away with the money and the power and keep running the world?
- [18:51]
Brooke Castillo
Well, I think one of the things that, like, I have two boys that I try to explain to them because it's. It's lost on them sometimes, is that, you know, when we're taking back our brain, it's not like there's like, in my mind, it doesn't feel like there's a bunch of just white dudes out there that are consciously thinking this through. And like, how do we keep the women down? I think even with them, with women. And it's just such. It's like an infiltration.
- [19:18]
Cara Lowenthal
It's not like the Elders of Zion. It's not like a meeting. They're not at a meeting deciding these things.
- [19:25]
Brooke Castillo
Right.
- [19:25]
Cara Lowenthal
That's why we call it, like structural, because we've all learned to think this way. So, I mean, of course I, you know, you can have a straight white man who absolutely thinks of himself as a feminist.
- [19:35]
Brooke Castillo
Yes. He doesn't even realize it. Yeah.
- [19:38]
Cara Lowenthal
But he's still thinking in ways he hasn't realized a little bit differently about his employees. And like, the maternity and the paternity leave policies. And like, what do the women in his company need to be able to be successful? And who does he assume is going to take the coffee order? And like, what is he, you know, all of these. And like, does he give as much credence to when a woman is speaking Impassionately. Does he a little bit just assume she's being kind of shrill or hysteric. It's like all of these little, little things. And so, I mean, in the book I really go through, like, specific. I'm very big, as you know, on like, here's how we're going to concretely change your thinking. Like, it's. There's plenty of feminist theory out there. Like, nothing I'm saying on the theory level in this book, in the non brain area, like in the feminist theory area is necessarily even new. It's feminist theory and philosophy. But how do we actually change our brains? And I think that what I have found is when you marry the cognitive change tools that like, you teach and I teach and you know, coaches teach.
- [20:37]
Brooke Castillo
Yeah.
- [20:38]
Cara Lowenthal
With this context, it's so much more powerful because it addresses the actual root of the problem. Right. Because a lot of women don't even know that this is why their brain works this way. Like, I was just teaching and training today on people pleasing and we were talking about how people pleasing for a lot of women literally feels like they're going to die. It feels like life and death. And if you don't understand, it does the social history of the fact that for thousands of years it was literally true that you might die.
- [21:04]
Brooke Castillo
You mean not people pleasing makes you.
- [21:06]
Cara Lowenthal
Feel like you're not. Right? Like, right.
- [21:08]
Brooke Castillo
People pleasing feels like breathing, feels safe.
- [21:11]
Cara Lowenthal
Right. Not people pleasing, like trying to stop. Right.
- [21:14]
Brooke Castillo
That fear saying.
- [21:16]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah. Without the social context, it's hard to understand. With the social context, you can understand that literally for thousands of years it was physically dangerous to be a woman who, like, displeased people, especially men, especially authority figures. I always like to show when I'm doing trainings this, like, picture of what was called a scolds bridal. It was like a muzzle that you would put on a woman's face who was like a nag and she would have to wear it around town. So like, that's not that long ago, it's a few years ago. So of course it feels like you're gonna die when you try to stand up for yourself.
- [21:50]
Brooke Castillo
Oh, my gosh. So many times I've just. Just saying no made me think I was gonna die. But I really think it's important to explicitly say about this work is that so much of it isn't conscious.
- [22:05]
Cara Lowenthal
Yes.
- [22:05]
Brooke Castillo
Like so much of what is going on in our own brains, we will be surprised. Like you were saying, like, if there was an announcer doing this, you'd be surprised to find Out. And so not only do you need to know how to change it if you want, but you need to know that it's there. And I think in so many of us, that's the hardest part.
- [22:26]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah. That's why the first exercise of the book is an exercise that walks you through figuring out what are the different kind of identities that you hold. And then what did you learn about those people? And like, that alone blows people's minds. Right. Especially when I then make them make a list of what are your beliefs about yourself? Do you see any. Is there any correlation here and what you believe about yourself and, like, what you were? Right. And as you're kind of in the book, the first half of the book is sort of how your brain works, how socialization impacts your brain, how to understand the, you know, the thoughts and feelings and actions through this lens. And then the second half of the book are chapters on the major kind of areas of women's lives. And I go into. In each chapter, like, these are the common thought patterns I see that are created by socialization, because, yeah, people don't even realize that they're doing them or they don't realize where they came from, or they're like, so many women I've had come to me exactly what you're talking about. Be like, like, I didn't have an abusive parent and my childhood was fine. And, like, I still feel like I'm gonna die if I try to say no to a second date. Like, what the is wrong with me?
- [23:26]
Brooke Castillo
Yes. Right.
- [23:26]
Cara Lowenthal
To be able to be like, nothing's wrong with you. There's thousands of years of socialization impacting your brain. And, okay, now here's how we're going to change it. But I totally agree with you. Most people have no idea how much of what they consider to be their individual failings or flaws or like, thought patterns.
- [23:42]
Brooke Castillo
Yes.
- [23:42]
Cara Lowenthal
Actually make complete sense when you look at the history of what we've learned about women.
- [23:48]
Brooke Castillo
And it's so, I don't know, confirming for me.
- [23:51]
Cara Lowenthal
It's like validating. Yeah, yeah.
- [23:52]
Brooke Castillo
Validating. Yeah, that's the word I need. So I'll give you an example. So there's like, there's. First, you don't even know the thoughts are there. You just think, this is how the world is. And then you realize, wait, those are all just thoughts that are programmed into my brain. And then you realize that it's just a thought. And then you still are like, wait, okay, wait, what? So I have a perfect example between the two of us that we Talk about a lot. And. And I think many people struggle with this, right? And it's for me, dating and relationships and, you know, marriage, all the things, all the constructs that we've been taught are normal and what we should do and what is right and what is good. Right. Without. With no question. We've just believed these things. And so many conversations I've had with you, you're just like, yeah, well, I just don't believe that. I just don't do that. I just don't think that I'm like, what? Like, we're allowed to do this, like, this way. And like, one of the things and this applies to money is being a woman who makes a lot more money than your partner or you're your husband or the person that you're married to. Right? And how I can't shake that me making more money than my partner could be considered normal.
- [25:01]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah. I remember texting you about this, right? You being like, but what about this? And I was like, I. It's fine. And you were like, what?
- [25:08]
Brooke Castillo
What do you mean it's fine? She and you. And you said, because I asked. I'm like, so isn't. Doesn't it create any kind of weird dynamic? And you're just like, that doesn't bother me at all. Like, it doesn't even, like, I don't even think about it. And I was like, oh. Because society, it's like, I feel like it's just everybody believe, like, we all agree that men should make more than.
- [25:26]
Cara Lowenthal
Women, and we assume that they are like, I. Every female entrepreneur I know has the experience of going to a, like, a hotel or a restaurant or store with her husband or partner who she's usually retired.
- [25:36]
Brooke Castillo
Right.
- [25:37]
Cara Lowenthal
Supports.
- [25:38]
Brooke Castillo
Right.
- [25:38]
Cara Lowenthal
And then the, like, people at the restaurant or the hotel or the store or the bank are, like, talking to him, right? Like, my partner, he just points to me and goes, listen, she's the bank. I don't know why you're talking to me.
- [25:49]
Brooke Castillo
Oh, I love it. I love it.
- [25:51]
Cara Lowenthal
But, like, they've all had that experience. Every multimillion dollar business owner I know who's a woman has had that experience of, like.
- [25:57]
Brooke Castillo
That's actually interesting because I wonder if most men would say that, oh, she's the bank.
- [26:04]
Cara Lowenthal
And yeah, I think just the ones who happen to be married to the women I know because, like, you obviously, I mean, dealing with us, you're gonna have to be that kind of man.
- [26:11]
Brooke Castillo
But I'm just like. I think it's like, we like to perpetuate that Idea socializing it this way.
- [26:17]
Cara Lowenthal
Right. Men are socialized to believe that they need to make money to be like that. Masculinity depend, like requires making money, being the provider, you know, making more money than your partner. I mean, this, there's. In the book, I talk about some of the research on what happens in marriages and like household labor and time depending on who's the breadwinner. And essentially if the man makes more than the one in a heterosexual married couple, obviously if the woman makes less than the man, she does more housework and childcare. If the man and the woman make the same amount of money, she does more housework and childcare.
- [26:51]
Brooke Castillo
Wow.
- [26:51]
Cara Lowenthal
If the woman makes more money but the man still works, she does more housework and childcare. The man on average does not do more housework and childcare unless he literally does not work and is a stay at home parent.
- [27:02]
Brooke Castillo
But the point is, I want everyone to hear this. The point is it's not because the dude is lazy. It's because we've been socialized. That's what's normal.
- [27:13]
Cara Lowenthal
Right. And the man has been socialized to have a certain expectation of entitlement to rest and leisure. And a woman has been socialized to think that, you know, she's only allowed to rest if she's. Literally everyone she knows has had something done for them. And probably the pets also, like the difficulty because women are socialized to believe that. And again, this is like, this is the history. Women were essentially just trapped domestic servants. Right? Yeah, that's, you know, marriages were arranged, money was exchanged, like in a lot of cultures. So women are socialized to believe that that's where their value and worth is, is doing things for other people and being in service. And like you and I are in service of big goals. There's nothing wrong with being in service, but we want it to feel like, I was just teaching about this today. And you know, of course, anytime I try to teach a woman that it's like okay to care at all what they think about something or what they want.
- [28:03]
Brooke Castillo
Yeah.
- [28:04]
Cara Lowenthal
They're immediately like, then I will become a destructive sociopath and a narcissist and be selfish. And I'll write. And I'm always like, we're just trying to rebalance the scale a little bit. Like we're, we're not saying that everybody should be a sociopath who doesn't care about anyone else.
- [28:18]
Brooke Castillo
Right. Or. Yeah. And, and I think that this trying to go against these norms and make. For me, it's like, I want to Make a contribution to that effort, Right? To make. To make it change. So, like, when, you know, someone's talking to my boyfriend and he's telling them about me, well, she's beautiful. This is what he's saying, right? She's beautiful. And she owns this really successful business, and, you know, she's got all these clients, whatever, and they're like, oh, so why is she dating you? Like, literally said that to him. Like, the only reason that I would date a man, right, is because he was providing for me. And. And in this woman, like, to her defense is just kind of like she's thinking in terms of, well, these are the reasons that you date someone because they're, you know, they're attractive. Especially a woman, right? She has to be pretty. I mean, it's obvious why you're dating her, right? Why would she. Because you don't have as much money as her. Why would she date you? Right? That's the reason.
- [29:17]
Cara Lowenthal
That's what women trade men.
- [29:18]
Brooke Castillo
Yeah. It's, like, so crazy. But one of the sections of your book that I just thought was amazing, I'd love for you to speak about it on the podcast, is know what happens if you don't create wealth? A lot of people come to me and they're like, well, why do you think making or creating wealth is important? And I said, well, it's important to me. And I can describe why it's important to me. And I want to give as many women permission to consider it as a possibility because that's what had happened to me with Amy Portfolio. I hadn't even considered it as a possibility that I could make a million dollars in a year. So I want to give that as, like, huh? Is that something we're all allowed to do? Is that something we should consider doing? But the way you present it is okay. You may not want to consider doing it, but just know that there is an effect if you don't consider it too. And, yeah, in your thoughts.
- [30:07]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. Like, I don't think everybody needs to be a business owner or be trained, of course, if they don't want to. I think what you're saying, number one, is really important, which is we want it to be an honest choice. Right. It's the same thing, like, yeah, conscious and honest choice, where you've told yourself the truth about the options and you have done the work to not be acting out of just your default socialization. What you were taught, what your parents taught you, what you heard in the media, whatever. Right. The same way that I would say, like, when I teach about people pleasing, I'm not saying, like, so you should never, ever go to a family reunion.
- [30:41]
Brooke Castillo
You should never please anyone, ever, ever do anything.
- [30:43]
Cara Lowenthal
If you, if it seems like your mom might like something, don't do it.
- [30:46]
Brooke Castillo
Right?
- [30:47]
Cara Lowenthal
No. Right. We want to do it from a sense of generosity, not obligation. So when it comes to money and wealth, I think the big lie that we're taught is that you can sort of opt out of those things and then you are, like, pure and good.
- [31:02]
Brooke Castillo
Yeah.
- [31:02]
Cara Lowenthal
And good. And you're sort of. And everything else is sort of just neutral. It's like you can just remove yourself without impacting the whole system. But when you opt out. And for me, it's not even just about money. It's about, like, speaking up in a meeting or going for the job or whatever. If you opt out because you're uncomfortable or you have biases or whatever else, you haven't done the work to at least honestly make a choice, you're confirming and validating the status quo. Right? So, like, I get this all the time in terms of, like, well, if you want to support women, but you're also making money in a business. You're also running a business. Right. And like, like, yes, I would much rather. And this is. No, I always feel like I have to say, like, this is not a dig on anything that anybody chooses to do with their own, whatever body time, money. But personally, yes, I would much rather that somebody comes and pays me to learn how to love themselves than goes and gets, like, another cosmetic procedure that's not going to make them feel good about themselves, that goes and spends their money on the 14th red lipstick, that is not going to change your life compared to the other 13. And that is, you know, ruining the environment. Like, it's like, if I don't do what I do, then the status quo just stays the same. So it's like, I think you have to think about, why do you.
- [32:14]
Brooke Castillo
I mean, what is the argument that people are making there? That you shouldn't make money helping women?
- [32:19]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, probably. I mean, some version of, you know, because women are socialized to believe that women especially are supposed to help and not want to make money or that help and money are, like, somehow in conflict with each other. And even though nobody ever says, like, well, you shouldn't pay for a house because living in a house is helpful. So no one charge money for their house.
- [32:38]
Brooke Castillo
But that's all that bias. Right? Money, help, helping women that need help.
- [32:45]
Cara Lowenthal
Right. But so if you Are a woman who's like, I'm uncomfortable negotiating. I don't want to seem greedy. I don't think I should care about money. So I'm not going to try to negotiate my salary. I'm not going to ask for more or I'm not going to try to blow my mind by seeing if I can like, create this amount in my business.
- [33:02]
Brooke Castillo
Yeah.
- [33:02]
Cara Lowenthal
It's sort of like if you opt out, the money you would have made doesn't just sit in a pile somewhere and nobody touches it. It goes to all the people who are already running the show. So, like, if I don't stand up and talk and yes. Like, charge money for coaching services and.
- [33:17]
Brooke Castillo
Create an option and create.
- [33:18]
Cara Lowenthal
Right. An alternative, really learn to love themselves, then the money they would have spent with me is going to all these things that don't actually offer true empowerment.
- [33:29]
Brooke Castillo
Oh, that is so good. That is so good. And I think too, I remember having many conversations with, you know, like our mastermind group when I was first wanting to, like, help a group of women make a million dollars, those life coaches, because I was getting so much feedback. Well, you can do it because you're so charismatic and you can do it because of your childhood and you can do it because of all the reading you've done. And I'm like, I just really believed that lots of people could do it and I wanted to help prove that in some ways. But I think a lot of times it's like we have to negotiate between our desires. Like some of our desires. Oh, I would like to do that. And is it okay?
- [34:08]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah.
- [34:09]
Brooke Castillo
Right. Are people going to hate me? Am I going to get in trouble? Like, I can't even tell you how many times I felt like I was going to get in trouble for making so much money. Like, it's crazy. And I think, I think that is a shared feeling. I think people look at women, men too, making money and think they must be doing something wrong.
- [34:28]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah. And we're afraid to, like, step out of line or do anything beyond the norm. Right.
- [34:32]
Brooke Castillo
And that's stand out.
- [34:34]
Cara Lowenthal
A lot of humans have that to some extent. And I think women have that more because women are punished more by society for doing that.
- [34:40]
Brooke Castillo
Yes.
- [34:40]
Cara Lowenthal
I mean, if you just look at the treatment of male and female, even celebrities, even, like, think about, like, I'm not crying any tears for Taylor Swift. She has a pretty good life. But like, if you look at like, she has so much money and power and there's still so much sexist nonsense.
- [34:54]
Brooke Castillo
About her compared to how Like a.
- [34:56]
Cara Lowenthal
Male celebrity is covered again, like, she's not. The treatment of Taylor Swift in the media is not the biggest problem in the world. But the point is that you, at any stage there is that, like, that sexist socialization. And so of course, women are afraid to, like, step out of line or try to be bigger than, like, the people around them think they should be or than they were told that women could be. Because there is. I mean, one of the things I work on a lot in my coaching is like, it's like women come to me and they're like, I want to believe that if I do what I want and I stop people pleasing and I, blah, blah, whatever, publish my novel, make a million dollars, whatever, nobody's going to be upset. And I'm like, that's not.
- [35:32]
Brooke Castillo
No, that's not going to happen.
- [35:34]
Cara Lowenthal
Right. We need to get okay with some people being obsessed, but we do a lot of, like, maybe this and this. Like, even if I can be a good person, even if a few people disagree or think I shouldn't try to make money, or I can, you know, I just, I was just coaching one of my students about making art that her family doesn't like. Like, I can be a good daughter and love my mom and have a good relationship with her, even if she doesn't like the art that I make.
- [36:02]
Brooke Castillo
Yeah.
- [36:03]
Cara Lowenthal
Even if she disapproves. Like, learning to tolerate that is, like, so good.
- [36:07]
Brooke Castillo
And I do think in order to change the socialization that the people who come after us, the girls that come after us, will receive is we have the opportunity, I should say, to do that with our own lives.
- [36:22]
Cara Lowenthal
We have to. I mean, this is like, why I get so mad at this when I say mad at the social justice crowd. I am a social justice child. I'm talking about myself.
- [36:28]
Brooke Castillo
You get mad at yourselves.
- [36:29]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, myself, I just. I come from that world. I was a reproductive rights litigator. I still consider myself, you know, somebody focused on social justice. But there's like a strain of that criticism, mostly of women that is like, you know, sort of it's like navel gazing and privilege to care about your own thoughts and feelings. And, like, nobody should be bothering with that. I just like, where do you think social change comes from?
- [36:52]
Brooke Castillo
Right?
- [36:52]
Cara Lowenthal
Like, does it get airdropped from the aliens? Like, what? It comes from people's brains. It comes from the people currently alive now. And, like, do they have good ideas? Do they feel willing to take risks? Are they able to speak up like any revolutionary hero? You have the thing that made them a revolutionary hero is that they thought differently than the norm.
- [37:11]
Brooke Castillo
Yes.
- [37:12]
Cara Lowenthal
And they didn't accept what society had told them and who society told them they had to be so.
- [37:17]
Brooke Castillo
Well, yeah.
- [37:17]
Cara Lowenthal
And same thing.
- [37:19]
Brooke Castillo
And being that. Right. So let's use you as an example. If someone's not considering their choices of what they could do for their own life and, like, their own agency as a woman, and they see someone like you who has this ridiculously amazing education and is, you know, an attorney and living this one life and then just decides one day to become a life coach. Like, the audacity of a single woman to make a choice about her life that doesn't make any sense to anyone else.
- [37:48]
Cara Lowenthal
Right.
- [37:48]
Brooke Castillo
Is so inspiring to so many other women. And then to go and make more money than you would have made as an attorney, like, what is happening? And then to have that inspired, like, the more of us that are making our own decisions and questioning our thoughts and doing what we want, whether it's making lots of money or not together, that's what changes the world, period. And so it's going to be uncomfortable.
- [38:18]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, we're right. Somebody's mind has to change and then they can change the world. So I always, like, maybe you want to change your life. You want to be president of the PTA or you want to be the president of the United States. I don't care either way.
- [38:28]
Brooke Castillo
I actually do care, and I would like you to be president of the United States.
- [38:32]
Cara Lowenthal
Well, I'm definitely not going to be president of the pta. So I guess that's the other option. But that's the only option. You talk to a lot of strangers to be president, and that's not really my vibe.
- [38:40]
Brooke Castillo
Right, Right. But I do think, like, know what happens if you don't create wealth. I think this point is just like, it's not that there is no consequence. It's not that there is no effect if you make that choice. It's not like, well, I'm just choosing not to make that choice. You are making that choice in that moment and just make sure. And this is all we're saying, that you've made it honestly and consciously.
- [39:03]
Cara Lowenthal
You've evaluated yourself energy towards something. Yeah, I'm not. I don't think everybody needs to make money. If you were like, what I really want to do is work with indigenous forest preservation. And that is not a thing that creates a lot of wealth. Like, God bless, please. Like, it's not.
- [39:19]
Brooke Castillo
But if that's genuine.
- [39:20]
Cara Lowenthal
Right. If you've chosen that, then that's just very different than what I just want to get. Like it's all a trade off. It's like, I'm going to do this instead of this. This is how I want to contribute to the world. This might be the cost. It's anything that is a conscious choice where you have really unpacked your own programming and decided on purpose for yourself. I mean, this is. On a fundamental level, I think this is the thing that so many women struggle with is because we are socialized to constantly be trying to live up to impossible standards and expectations from society. We don't even know what our own standards or expectations or criteria or values for things are. So I teach a lot inside the feminist self help society, which is my coaching program about making decisions based on your values and like even knowing what those values are. So many women are like, I don't even know what I want. I don't even know who I am. I don't actually know what I think because they've been taught their whole lives to just constantly be trying to. It's like a compass spinning around and around based on whoever's closest or has the loudest opinion.
- [40:23]
Brooke Castillo
Yes. And I just know that I'm supposed to be pretty, I'm supposed to be thin, and I'm supposed to be polite and feminine. Right. It's nice and nice. Yeah.
- [40:32]
Cara Lowenthal
And just wait to be. Keep your head down. Wait till somebody rewards you.
- [40:35]
Brooke Castillo
Yeah. And I can be successful. That's nice. But don't be too successful. No, please stop talking about it.
- [40:41]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, well, and like be independent. But also you should. Don't make a man feel emasculated. I mean, you gotta also needy. I mean it's just so much. And you know, obviously you. I have mostly people socialize as women. Listen to my podcast. I think you have a more mixed audience. But this is not good for men either. Like a partner is very happy as a stay at home. I mean he does some, some legal work still. But like he also is like at a very nurturing, loving person who likes to caretake, which I don't want to do. And like it's. And like that's socialization too. He had to overcome of like, you know, what is supposed to do.
- [41:19]
Brooke Castillo
Yeah. And there's just, I mean there's so much freedom in that. And I think that's one of the things I would hope that. First of all, I hope that you go buy the book. If you're listening. I hope you go buy it and I, I hope that one of the things that you take from it is just that you actually are more free than you think. I really do think that's true. That there actually are more options and more choices. And even though we have been socialized this way, we do have the opportunity to undo so much of that in the brain. We don't, we can't change the world right now, this second and make it all different, but we can change how we think about it. And that to me is freedom. What is your wish for people who read the book?
- [41:59]
Cara Lowenthal
That's a good question. The dedication of the book says, this book is dedicated to every woman who has ever dared to live life on her own terms and is written for every woman who wants to do the same. Yes, like that's it to me is like living life knowing what your own terms even are. Just like we've been talking about like figuring that out and living life based on those terms. Which means like lives are going to look really different. This is not a like everybody should be a girl boss. Nor is it everybody should be a stay at home dairy farmer's wife. Like whatever your version of it is, I want you to, you have so much more power than you realize to change the way that you think. And just because you've been thinking one way for so long, I mean the miracle of thought work is that it won't take just as long to reprogram it the other way.
- [42:46]
Brooke Castillo
Right.
- [42:47]
Cara Lowenthal
It's faster to change it when you're doing it intentionally. I just think one of the things that's different about me than a lot of women is not genetic or inherent. It's from doing this work is it's not like I don't have moments of self doubt. But in general I believe that I'm in charge of my own life and I'm going to make it happen the way that I want it to. I'm going to. You know, thought work is also about dealing with when you can't control things. But I just remember before it, I just feel like I woke up every day like, oh God, who knows what kind of like feelings and thoughts are going to happen to me today. Like, and I didn't feel like I had any control over what my life was going to become. I was like, I just hope I meet a partner. I just hope I have a good career. I just hope it's like women are just taught to be so disempowered. And my wish for people who read this book is that they start to like grab the steering wheel and really feel like they can drive to whatever destination they want.
- [43:34]
Brooke Castillo
Yes. I love that. And I think that you're such an example of that. Like, I watch you live your life and you just make decisions that are so, I don't know, contrarian. Like to just decide one day that you're just not going to try to lose weight ever again. Like, it's such a profound. Like what. And you're going to decide to change your career and do exactly what you want to do, even though the sunk cost.
- [44:01]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah.
- [44:02]
Brooke Castillo
Is ridiculous. Of everything that you've done. You're just going to do that. And you know, and the reason being that because I want to. That's what I want to do with my life. And I can. And I do feel like we. We have more freedom than we think. And this book really shows us that we do. And so everyone right now, don't wait. What are you waiting for? First of all, you have to go to this website to see the picture of Cara because it is the best picture. We're not going to tell you what she's doing, but she's doing something amazing. And it's. Take backyourbrainbook.com the book's available everywhere. You can buy it on Amazon right this second. But if you go to this website to buy it, you will get some special cool bonuses.
- [44:47]
Cara Lowenthal
Yes. If you buy it the first week. So this is coming out. It's May 23rd as we are.
- [44:52]
Brooke Castillo
If you buy it this week, releasing.
- [44:53]
Cara Lowenthal
If you buy it this week, you will get some cool bonuses. So hurry up. That's good reason to get moving.
- [44:57]
Brooke Castillo
Hurry up.
- [44:58]
Cara Lowenthal
After that, you can buy it wherever you find books. It's not whatever books are sold. Wherever books are sold.
- [45:04]
Brooke Castillo
That's amazing. Congratulations on writing such an amazing book. I know it's going to change the world. Really. Our, Our. Our contributions that we do in our own life do change the world. We don't maybe say it that way, but I want to say that to you because I think this book is going to change so many people's lives. Anything else you want the people to know before we say goodbye?
- [45:26]
Cara Lowenthal
Thank you. No, I got nothing else.
- [45:28]
Brooke Castillo
Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for listening. Go to the site takebackyourbrainbook.com I love you. Thank you. Talk to you later. Hey, if you've ever wanted to work with me as your coach, now is the time to do it. You can join me in get coached in scholars by going to the lifecoachschool.com join. This is going to be the best year ever. It's your turn to change your life. Let's go.