Jane Goodall on living with wild chimpanzees

Summary

The Life Scientific: Jane Goodall on Living with Wild Chimpanzees

Podcast: The Life Scientific (BBC Radio 4)
Host: Jim Al-Khalili
Episode Date: June 2, 2020
Guest: Dr. Jane Goodall

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Life Scientific features a captivating conversation with Dr. Jane Goodall, the legendary primatologist whose groundbreaking research among the wild chimpanzees of Gombe revolutionized our understanding of animal intelligence, emotion, and culture. Host Jim Al-Khalili delves into Goodall's early journey, her scientific discoveries, the emotional and ethical impact of her work, her evolution from scientist to activist, and her enduring commitment to conservation and education through initiatives like Roots & Shoots.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Jane Goodall’s Beginnings and Motivation

• Early Fascination with Animals: Jane was inspired from a young age, reading extensively about African animals. Her path to Africa began with a friend's invitation, which she funded by waitressing.
• Meeting Louis Leakey: Leakey, recognizing her passion and knowledge, hired her as his secretary (a serendipitous result of her secretarial course) and later chose her for his vision of studying chimpanzees to better understand human origins.

  “It’s amazing. And while I was being his secretary, he realized more and more how passionate I was. That’s why he invited me on this amazing three-month safari to Olduvai Gorge...” (06:40)

• First Steps at Gombe: Funding and permissions were challenging; her mother joined for support, both living in a basic ex-army tent (08:00).

2. Breaking New Ground in Chimpanzee Research

• Initial Difficulties: For months, the chimps saw Jane as a threat and kept their distance.
• Crucial Bond with David Greybeard: This chimpanzee, less wary than others, paved the way for broader trust and acceptance from the troop.

  “He happened to see bananas on my table and took them... It was so amazing to have a chimp so close.” (11:21)

3. Scientific Milestones and Contributions

• Tool Use: Jane’s observation of wild chimps using—and even modifying—tools overturned long-held beliefs about human uniqueness.

  “I saw this black hand picking grass stems and pushing them down into the termite mound... Not only was he using objects as tools, but modifying those objects to make tools.” (11:52)

• Challenging Scientific Orthodoxies: Initially criticized at Cambridge for naming animals and attributing personalities and emotions, Goodall was vindicated both by her findings and support from her supervisor, Robert Hinde.
• Behavioral Parallels: Goodall observed complex emotions, social bonds, and even violence mirroring human societies.

  “It was pretty shocking to find that like us, they can be brutal and even wage a kind of warfare, but they can also be loving, altruistic, compassionate...” (17:55)

4. Chimpanzee Society: Affection, Family, and Darker Realities

• Deep Bonding: Long childhoods, strong mother-offspring relationships, and culturally transmitted behaviors (16:57, 17:49).
• Violence and “Chimpanzee War”: In the 1970s, Goodall documented aggressive group conflict, challenging her earlier view that chimps were “like us, but nicer.”

  “Then I realized that they were even more like us because they had this brutal side as well.” (23:20)

5. Personal and Family Life in Gombe

• Raising a Child in the Wild: Goodall’s son, Grub, grew up near the chimps, but for safety was largely kept away from them, sometimes in protected enclosures (“cages”) (20:01–21:27).

  “I had to keep Grub away from them and so we moved down to the beach where the chimps seldom go.”

6. From Scientist to Conservationist and Activist

• Turning Point: A 1986 conference on chimpanzee conservation transformed Goodall into an activist.

  “I went as a scientist... and I left as an activist. And honestly, people say, how did you make that decision? I didn’t. I was changed.” (23:34)

• Fighting for Captive Chimps: Persistent advocacy led to landmark changes—like the U.S. halting medical research on chimps—often by appealing to empathy rather than confrontation.
• Rescue and Sanctuaries: Goodall helped establish sanctuaries across Africa, her work deeply motivated by experiences rescuing traumatized baby chimps (26:56–28:33).

7. Holistic Conservation and Community Programs

• Seeing the Bigger Picture: An aerial view of a diminished Gombe forest made it clear to Goodall that supporting local people was key to saving chimpanzees.

  “If we don’t help the people to find ways of living without destroying their environment, we can’t even try to save the chimps.” (28:38)

• Jane Goodall Institute (JGI) & Tacare: Built conservation into community development, involving locals as stewards and using technology for monitoring.

8. Roots & Shoots and Empowering Youth

• Roots & Shoots: Launched in 1991, this global youth-led program operates in 65 countries, encouraging environmental, animal, and people-centered projects.

  “It’s the main message...that every day we live we make a difference. And when people say, what can I do? I say, well, think about the consequences of the choices you make each day...” (31:06)

9. Reflections on Human Behavior, Pandemics, and the Environment

• COVID-19 Pandemic: Goodall connects the rise of zoonotic diseases to environmental destruction and the wildlife trade, calling for deeper respect for animals, an end to cruel intensive farming, and more ethical consumer choices (32:00–34:55).

  “It’s our foolish, greedy, selfish behavior, it’s our materialistic lifestyle or it’s the desperation of poverty that have created these conditions.” (33:19)

• Emotional Engagement in Advocacy: She emphasizes appealing to empathy as more effective for changing hearts and minds than argument.

10. Life, Legacy, and Where She Feels at Home

• Present-day Priorities: Now in her 80s, Goodall prefers quiet time with family in Bournemouth, finding rare anonymity, yet continues speaking and advocating for the environment (35:23–36:41).

  “Here in Bournemouth... I can really be me... just who I know I am, an ordinary person who’s had good luck and managed to do quite interesting things in my life.” (35:23)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On First Winning Over Chimps:

  “Once David Greybeard had lost his fear, then he really helped me to get closer to the others...” (09:15)

• On Scientific Resistance:

  “Chimpanzees should have had numbers, not names... I was told, were unique to us. We were separate.” (14:15)

• On Conservation Epiphany:

  “If we don’t help the people... we can’t even try to save the chimps.” (28:38)

• On Advocacy:

  “If you want to change people’s minds, get to the heart. It’s such a good message.” (34:55)

• On Her Legacy:

  “An ordinary person who’s had good luck and managed to do quite interesting things in my life.” (36:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Jane’s famous greeting – 00:38–02:27
• Early days in Africa, meeting Leakey – 05:30–07:41
• Coming to Gombe: first challenges – 07:41–10:09
• David Greybeard and breakthrough – 09:15–11:21
• Discovering tool use – 11:52–13:21
• Criticism from scientific establishment – 14:15–15:57
• Observing chimpanzee emotions and culture – 16:57–17:49
• Chimps’ violent side, the Gombe 'war' – 21:27–23:30
• Transition to activist – 23:34–24:53
• Animal rescue and sanctuaries – 26:56–28:33
• Community conservation, Tacare, JGI – 28:38–30:15
• Roots & Shoots program – 30:39–30:58
• Individual action, ethical consumerism – 31:06–31:47
• The roots of pandemics and factory farming – 32:00–34:55
• Where Jane calls home, reflections – 35:23–36:41

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a rich tapestry of storytelling and science, revealing Jane Goodall’s lifelong curiosity, empathy, and perseverance. She links the fates of people and wildlife, showing that compassion and scientific insight must guide our future. Her humility and humor shine—whether recounting the first time she heard office workers discuss her chimps, or reflecting on anonymity in Bournemouth. For listeners, her most enduring message is one of hope: every individual can—and must—make a difference.

Transcript

[Jim Al-Khalili]

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[Jim Al-Khalili]

Hello. Well, it's not often I get to talk to someone who's lived with wild chimpanzees. Yes, My guest today is the legendary Jane Goodall, a woman who made us all reflect on what it is to be human and who inspired millions of people around the world to care about wild animals and wild places.

[Jane Goodall]

BBC Sounds Music Radio podcasts.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Jane Goodall shot to fame in December 1965 when she appeared on the COVID of National Geographic magazine. Through magazine and newspaper articles, scientific papers, books, documentary films, she's introduced millions of people around the world to the social and emotional lives of the wild chimpanzees of Gombe in eastern Tanzania. When the alpha female Flo died back in 1972, she was so well loved, she had an obituary in the Times. Jane's observations made over many years, changed the way we viewed our closest animal relatives and made us think about what it is to be human. She's worked tirelessly to liberate chimpanzees that were being kept in captivity for medical research or in zoos. And her global youth program, Roots and Shoots, has inspired and empowered millions of people around the world to care about their environment and to protect not only chimpanzees, but all wild animals and wild places. Jane Goodall, welcome to the Life Scientific. Or should I say, Does that sound at all close?

[Jane Goodall]

That was pretty good. Let me answer you.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

That's wonderful.

[Jane Goodall]

Well, it wasn't the full blown one because I thought I might destroy the setting on the mic.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

I practiced mine a bit upstairs in the study. My wife called up very, very concerned that I was in pain.

[Jane Goodall]

But then that means, this is me, Jane. It's the distance greeting and you hear that sound and you're far away in the forest and you think, ah, there's my mom calling, I want to go and see her. It keeps the groups, you know, together. But then there's a different greeting. If I'm coming to greet you, you're the male, I'm the female, females are the subordinate ones. So I'm a little bit nervous and I greet you like this. And then if you respond by reaching out and gently patting me on the head, then I'm encouraged and I go up and I put my arms around you and you put your arms around me and I kiss into your neck and that's the close up greeting.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Well, Jen, I mentioned that that National Geographic cover picture you also appeared of course in a TV documentary narrated by Orson Welles entitled Ms. Goddard and the Wild Chimpanzees. There were the famous clips of you walking barefoot on the thick jungle branches playing and wrestling with baby chimps. It did make your fieldwork look incredibly romantic. Was it?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, for the first three months all I saw of chimpanzees was either distant black shapes or retreating bottoms because they took one look at this weird white ape and fled. And I only had money for six months, so it was a very nerve wracking time because you know, if I didn't see something exciting, A, I would have let Louis Leakey down, he's the one who got the money for me and B, my dream would be ended.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

The photographs that then appeared in National Geographic magazine were taken by her ex husband.

[Jane Goodall]

Yes.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

And they are amazing. But is it true that you didn't really like being photographed?

[Jane Goodall]

I still hate it

[Jim Al-Khalili]

after all these years.

[Jane Goodall]

Yes.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

And yet, you know, here you are now, well into your 80s, if I may, touring the world, speaking 86. Well, there you go. But you're speaking on stage in front of thousands of people. Do you still feel shy being in the public eye?

[Jane Goodall]

No, not the same way at all. I discovered once I got in front of an audience there's something, something in the atmosphere of people wanting to hear what you say. And I've always wanted to share and so something's drawn out of me.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Well, Cenkodal, you and the chimps of Gombe are of course famous. Now your activism has inspired millions of people. You've been called the Mother Teresa of the environment.

[Jane Goodall]

I don't want to.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

I'm sure it's not your choice of name, but there you go.

[Jane Goodall]

No, my best name was a Native American tribe in America and the name they gave me in their language translates as sister to Mother Earth.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

So tell me, what first took you to Africa?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, first of all, you know, the reason I got to Africa was an invitation from a school friend and I worked as a waitress to save up enough money for the passage. I meanwhile done a secretarial course because I had to get money, had to earn money, living, no money for university. But anyhow, after I'd been with my friend for a couple of weeks, somebody said if you're interested in animals, you should meet Louis Leakey. So I telephoned him, the Natural History Museum, he was curator and said I wanted to see him, which as I was very shy, was not something I normally would dare to do. But he was clearly impressed by how much I knew because I'd read every single book I could find about African animals. So he gave me a job. I mean, two days before I met him, he'd lost his secretary. Suddenly he needed a secretary. And there that boring old secretarial course, you see how things fit in. It's amazing. And while I was being his secretary, he realized more and more how passionate I was. That's why he invited me on this amazing three month safari to Olduvai Gorge, searching for fossils. And all the animals were there. Then meeting a rhin, just so close, meeting a young male lion. And so I think it was because of those meetings Leakey decided I was the person he'd been looking for to go and study chimpanzees. Nobody had done it, nobody knew anything about wild chimpanzees, but he felt that there was a common ancestor 6 million or so years ago, ape like, human like. And so he reckoned that if Jane can find behavior similar in chimpanzees and modern humans, then maybe that behavior was in the common ancestor all those millions of years ago. And that he felt would enable him to better imagine how those early Stone Age humans behaved, whose fossils he was digging up.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

So there you were in Gombe, Jane, this wonderful, yet I imagine, a very challenging environment. Where did you live? What did you eat?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, when I first went, you know, it took Leakey a year to find money. I mean, who was going to give money to a young untrained girl who hadn't been to college straight up from England? Then it was amazingly, that he got six months money from an American businessman and then permission from the British authorities, what was then Tanganyika, sort of one of the last outposts of the collapsing British Empire. They refused to take responsibility for something as absurd as this young girl going off alone in the forest. But in the end they said all right, but she has to come with somebody. So who volunteered? That same amazing mother. We shared one ex army tent. It's not the kind of tent people go camping in today. It had a ground sheet, there was just a bit of canvas on the floor. So if you wanted air to come in, which we did, because it could be very hot, you rolled up the side flaps and tied them with tape and then came the air. But also scorpions, spiders, snakes, which I didn't mind, but poor Mum. I mean, honestly, she was amazing.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

As you mentioned earlier, when you first arrived in Gombe, it wasn't easy in terms of going out and trying to observe the chimpanzees. How did they first react to you, a young adult female human sitting amongst them?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, it took four months before I could get reasonably close to one, and it wasn't really for a year that I could actually sit among them. They just never seen anything like this weird white ape. And they're very conservative, as I've said, and so they ran away. But finally, thanks to one beloved chimpanzee, David Greybeard, who's the first one to lose his fear of me, and once David Graby had lost his fear, then he really helped me to get closer to the others, because if he was in a group ready to run and he just sat there calmly, I think the others must have thought, oh, well, she can't be so frightening after all. So gradually I got to know them and gradually more and more of them let me get close. And eventually, I think they just treated me as another part of the environment.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Were you ever scared?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, there was a time when they lost their fear, but they didn't like me and so they treated me as though I was a predator. And when they're up in the trees and they're screaming at you with those canines showing, and they've got all the hair bristling and they're swaying the branches, they are extremely intimidating. And, you know, I knew they were very much stronger than me, but fortunately, while they were actually doing this, I wasn't afraid. I just thought, well, I'll pretend I'm not interested in them. And I pretended to eat leaves and eventually they went away. It was after they'd gone that my legs were a bit weak and wobbly

[Jim Al-Khalili]

because that you'd survived it.

[Jane Goodall]

Yeah. And then, you know, after a bit, I think they thought, oh, she's not going away and she doesn't seem to be harmful. And so then gradually this aggression gave place to acceptance.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

And how did you win this particular chimpanzee, David Greybeard, as you named him over, to be more confident to come and, I guess, befriend you?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, they all have their own personalities, and David Greybeard, for some reason, was less afraid of people in General and he happened to see bananas on my table and took them. So Mum had gone by then I asked our cook, Dominic, to leave bananas out for him and then he began coming more often and I stayed down. And it was so amazing to have a chimp so close.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

And do you remember the day you first saw him making a tool?

[Jane Goodall]

Oh, vividly. I mean, it was so incredible. I was a bit cold and a bit depressed. Mum had just left and then I saw this black shape on a termite mound and I still needed to use my binoculars. I wasn't that close, but I could see this black hand picking grass stems and pushing them down into the termite mound and pulling them out, with termites clinging on with their jaws. And the following day I saw him pick a leafy twig and strip the leaves. So not only was he using objects as tools, but modifying those objects to make tools. And, you know, it honestly didn't surprise me very much because I'd read Wolfgang Kola's Mentality Of Apes. He studied a captive colony who definitely could use objects as tools. But of course, all the scientists, in their lordly way, said, oh, well, that's because human behavior has rubbed off on them or they've been taught or something. And so I knew that this was very exciting to see it in wild chimpanzees. And of course, Leakey was over the moon because this is something he'd hardly dreamed of.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

He said something like, we have to now redefine. Either redefine tool or redefine man. Or accept chimpanzees as humans.

[Jane Goodall]

Yes, because Osborne had defined man as man, the toolmaker.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

And suddenly now we're not the only species that can do that.

[Jane Goodall]

Oh, no. I mean, we know that there's so many animals that can use and even make tools. Birds, the corvids, incredibly brilliant at tool using. And then there's the sea otter and these amazing octopuses that several species which will take two halves of a clam shell if they want to go hunting with the snow rocks to protect their soft bodies, they just walk along the ocean floor with these half shells held by two tentacles on each side, wiggle their way into one half and reach out and pull the other half over them. So they've made a house.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

It is incredible, presumably. I mean, this ability in these different animals shows that they're capable of abstract thoughts, that they can think what they might need in order to achieve a particular goal and plan and do something about it.

[Jane Goodall]

Yeah, that's right. And can you believe, honestly, can you believe that? When Leakey finally sent me to Cambridge, it was about two years after I'd been with the chimps because he said I had to have a degree and there wasn't time for an undergraduate degree. So he plunged me into doing a PhD in ethology. I didn't even know what ethology was. I couldn't Google anything in those days, of course, it's simply the study of behavior. So I was very nervous. And to have so many of these professors telling me I'd done everything wrong. Chimpanzees should have had numbers, not names. And I could not talk about them having personalities, minds capable of problem solving, and certainly not emotions. Those, I was told, were unique to us. We were separate. There was a difference of kind between us and other animals. That's truly what I was told. But, you know, I'd learned as a child from my dog that that wasn't true. But, you know, I was really lucky because one of the three most eminent ethologists in Europe at the time was Professor Robert Hind, and he was my supervisor. And at first he was, you know, he was really mean about all these things. But then he came to Gombe and he said, in two weeks, I learned more about animal behavior than all the rest of my life. So he actually, he did something which was so amazingly useful for me. He taught me how to write about the chimpanzees, what I knew to be true, and. But in a scientific way, it taught me the value of objective thinking.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Yes, well, of course, you did get a paper published in the prestigious journal Nature. But after your PhD, you went back to Gombe and spent a lot of time studying chimpanzee relationships, particularly the strong bonds between family members, as you say. You wrote several actually very acclaimed books on your studies which introduced the world to the chimpanzees of Gombe. And as I mentioned in the introduction, there was one chimpanzee in particular, the wonderful, the mother, the alpha mother, Flo, who ended up, when she died, having an obituary written up in the Times.

[Jane Goodall]

Yes. And you know the most fun thing, when that first book, in the Shadow of man, was published, I was in a tube in London and there were three city gents in their bowler hats and rolled umbrellas and they were talking about Flo and David Graby and it was such fun. They had no idea I was there. You know, they didn't know.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

You didn't let them know who you were?

[Jane Goodall]

No, no, no, I don't remember. I was shy, of course.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Yes. Sorry.

[Jane Goodall]

And by the way, this year is the 60th anniversary of when I first set foot in Gombe. 60 years.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Remarkable. Absolutely remarkable, isn't it? Goodness me.

[Jane Goodall]

But yes, the families, I mean, that was for me the most exciting to learn how the offspring stay bonded to the mother and you get this long childhood, five years of suckling, although less frequently riding on mum, sleeping with her at night before the next baby's born. And I think it's important because just like our children, they have a lot to learn. You know, their tool using behavior isn't instinct. It's probably instinct to manipulate objects, but not fish for termites. They learn these cultures by watching and imitating and practicing.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Do you witness the same range of emotions in chimpanzees that we see in humans?

[Jane Goodall]

Yeah, I would say exactly the same. You know, it was pretty shocking to find that like us, they can be brutal and even wage a kind of warfare, but they can also be loving, altruistic, compassionate. I mean, they show both sides of our nature.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Well, Jane Goodall, your observations of wild chimpanzees certainly changed our view of these primates, perhaps the way we humans view ourselves. To what extent did the time you spent in Gombe as a young woman change you, I wonder?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, I think about that it's very difficult to know. I don't think it changed me much at all. I'd always, all my life before that, loved to be alone, loved to be out in nature. I wasn't surprised that chimps had these emotions. It was fascinating to realize how many of their gestures are like, are so you can watch them without knowing anything about them. And when they greet with a kiss, an embrace, they pat one another in reassurance, they hold hands, they seek physical contact to alleviate nervousness or stress. You know, it's so like us.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Did you form relationships with particular individuals?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, there were some I liked more than others. You know, we're so human. Some you like and some you don't. And of course I was, I mean, David Graybeard, first of all, he took a banana from my hand and eventually he let me groom him and Figan let me play with him. When I see myself tumbling about with an 8 year old chimp who's much stronger than me, I'm sort of slightly shocked today to see that. Yes, never do it today, no.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Your son Hugo, known as Grub, was born in 1967 and spent much of his childhood living in Gombe. Was it difficult raising a human child in a community of wild chimpanzees?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, the difficulty was keeping him very far away from them because, you know, they do hunt. They hunt a lot of young baboons and monkeys and they have been known to take human babies, which shocks people. But humans eat chimps and we're all apes anyway, I had to keep grub away from them and so we moved down to the beach where the chimps seldom go. He just loved the lake and fishing. He spent nearly all his time in the water, so I think his childhood was pretty perfect.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

And what about those media reports when he was very young about spending some time in a cage for his own

[Jane Goodall]

protection, but nevertheless, a cage, we call it. People called it a cage. It was a veranda with weld mesh around it, just a well meshed in veranda. The time when he really was in a cage was when he was up at the feeding station where it really was dangerous and the cage was inside the house and he was only in that cage in the days before he could crawl. So he was a little baby and the cage was painted blue and it had all sorts of mobiles and there was always somebody there with him. So, I mean, it sounds terrible keeping your baby in a cage, but it was keeping your baby safe.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Most of your early work, Jane, focused on the kindness that chimpanzees show towards one another. But in the 1970s, I know you witnessed some terrible violence. Were you shocked to see chimpanzees acting in this way?

[Jane Goodall]

It was absolutely horrible, absolutely horrible. And what made it worse was, is all the chimps I came to know so well were one big community. And then maybe they just got too many males for them to cope with because they have a very strict dominance hierarchy. So a small number of males split off with some females and they took over an area in the south of the range that they previously all had shared. And after four years, the relations between the males of the two groups became extremely hostile. And so the males of the larger community started attacking the males in the south one by one and leaving them to die of their wounds. And it was horrible because it was like a civil war. They were killing individuals they had previously played with and groomed with. It was really horrible and, you know, the wounds inflicted were so dreadful.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

So what happened in the end?

[Jane Goodall]

They annihilated the whole southern community, all the males and the older females. They tried to take the younger females into their group, but the younger females, I think, just didn't like it. They went off and joined a different community. So that southern community vanished. And then the conquering males took over their old territory. Very human like, isn't, is, isn't it?

[Jim Al-Khalili]

I mean, I was just wondering now, did it change your view of chimpanzees?

[Jane Goodall]

Yes, I thought they were like us, but nicer. Then I realized that they were even more like us because they had this brutal side as well.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Yes, eventually. Why did you leave Gombe?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, in 1986, by then there were about six or seven chimpanzee study sites, people studying chimps in different parts of Africa. So I helped organize this conference to bring the scientists from these areas together. We had a session on conservation and we had a session on conditions in some captive situations. And it was a shock. It was a four day conference. I went as a scientist with my PhD in a research station and thinking, you know, what a wonderful life I had. And I left as an activist. And honestly, people say, how did you make that decision? I didn't. I was changed. I knew I had to try and do something even though I had no idea what I could do. And it's been a very, very long battle fighting the use of chimps in medical research. And finally in the US, all 400 chimps used by National Institutes of Health are now either in sanctuaries or waiting for the sanctuaries to be built. And no chimps are used in medical research in America, I don't think, although there are some in private hands.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

When did you first encounter chimpanzees being used in this way?

[Jane Goodall]

It was secretly filmed footage at that 86 conference. And when I saw it, I couldn't sleep for ages after seeing it. Our closest relatives in 5 foot by 5 foot cages for years and years with nothing, nothing. Just bars all around, motor tower on the floor. Social beings kept in isolation. But I knew that if I was going to try and do something, I had to actually see it with my own eyes. And I'm not quite sure why the labs let me in, but they did. It was so awful. I think it's the worst things I've ever had to do. But instead of being extremely aggressive to these horrible, cruel people, torturing chimps like that, I told them about the Gombe chimps, I showed them film and then they themselves could see the difference. It wasn't me, you know, arguing with them because I honestly think the only way you change people is if you get into their heart. It's no good arguing, they're trying to defend themselves then. But if you creep subtly into people's hearts, then they change from within. At least that's the hope.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

By 2015 NIH National Institute of Health in the US, which is one of the biggest medical research centers in the world, had liberated more than 350 chimpanzees from medical research. That must have been incredibly rewarding to see chimps, many of whom have been bred in captivity, being set free in this way.

[Jane Goodall]

Yes, well, you know, the one that the NIH uses is Chimp Haven, and I visited there and it's just incredible. Some of the chimpanzees have been captive so long that they're never normal, but, you know, they're free and they've got people who attend to them and enrich their lives. I don't want to say they're happy, but some of them are definitely happy. Some of them go out in the woods and, you know, behave like normal chimps.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

You also set up a sanctuary for chimpanzees in the Democratic Republic of Congo. What motivated you to do that?

[Jane Goodall]

I was invited by this French woman and she said, jane, there's so many baby chimps for sale as pets. It's illegal, but that's happening. So finally I managed to get there and I just can't forget going past a market and there was this little tiny chimp. He can't have been more than one year old, and he was curled up on his side on top of a small cage in the hot sun with a chain round his waist and his eyes were glazed. I thought he was dying. And I went up to him and I made that little greeting sound that I made to you at the beginning. And he sat up, he looked at me and he reached out a little hand. You couldn't buy him because that perpetrates the trade, but we rescued him and that was the first. And they ended up in the Democratic. No, the Republic of Congo. That is the biggest sanctuary in Africa now, but we also have one in South Africa called Chimpedon. Started one in Uganda, Ngamba island, and that's taken over by the government, run really well, we're trustees. Started another one in Kenya with chimps that came there as pets and that also was taken over by the animal group Arcus. And so that was four sanctuaries. Started to help the chimps, and I'm very proud of all of them and the people who work there.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

When did it become clear then to you that the chimpanzees in Gombe were at risk too?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, that came to a head when I flew over the tiny Gombe national park, it's really smallest in Tanzania, and it had been part of the equatorial forest belt that stretched all the way from East Africa to the West African coast. And in 1990, when I flew over, it was just this tiny island of forest surrounded by completely bare hills, all the trees gone. People had overused farmland, it was infertile, cutting down trees even on the steep slopes in their desperation to grow food to feed their families. And that's when it hit me. If we don't help the people to find ways of living without destroying their environment, we can't even try to save the chimps. So that's when JGI started our Take Care of Tacari program around Gombe.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

JGI is the Jane Goodall Institute. What does it involve?

[Jane Goodall]

A little group of, I think it was seven Tanzanians didn't even have PhDs. And they went into the 12 villages around Gombe and listened to the people and asked what they want. So it was very different from what was normally happening. A group of arrogant white people saying, we're coming to help you and this is what we're going to do. We've put the tools of conservation into the people's hands. They use smartphones, they go and monitor the health of their village forest reserves, which is where most of Tanzania's wild chimps live. They're not protected. That program is now in six other African countries where JGI works.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Nevertheless, there has been this catastrophic decline in chimpanzee numbers. Do you think it's possible to reverse this trend?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, there are some very big areas in the Congo and, you know, we're working with the wild chimps and sensitizing the people. We're using our Roots and Shoots program, which is in all the schools around the forest where we work to save the world.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

So this is a global program that empowers young people to take action on those to protect the environment.

[Jane Goodall]

It began in 91. It's groups of young people choosing three projects. One to help people, one to help animals, one to help environment. Because it's all interconnected. It's in 65 countries now, growing all the time.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Individual actions do make a difference, but can they make enough of a difference to stop us from destroying our planet?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, it's the main message of Roots and Shoots, which I think is for everybody, that every day we live we make a difference. And when people say, what can I do? I say, well, think about the consequences of the choices you make each day. What do you buy? Where does it come from? Did it harm the environment? Cruelty to animals, Child slave labor? And if everybody makes ethical choices that at least Begins to move us towards a better world. But the problem is to get enough people making ethical choices, you've got to alleviate poverty, because if you're really poor, you can't, you don't have the luxury of making a choice. You just have to buy the cheapest.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

That's right. That's right. In recent months, Jane Gadore, you've been outspoken about the current coronavirus pandemic, saying that we humans have brought this crisis on ourselves. Why did you say that?

[Jane Goodall]

I say that because it's been predicted for a very long time by people studying these so called zoonotic diseases that viruses and bacteria that jump from animal to human. And by destroying forests, animals are brought into contact with each other much more than they would normally be, which helps the virus or the bacteria to jump from one animal to another. We've pushed some animals into closer contact with people. And so that's another opportunity for viruses to jump ship. And then there's the trafficking. You know, you catch animals and you ship them around the world and you sell them in meat markets, the bush meat markets of Africa, the wild animal markets of Asia, and these markets where different animals are crowded together in unhygienic conditions, it's perfect for these diseases to jump. I mean, it's ideal for them. People, the sellers and the buyers can be contaminated with blood, urine, feces. I mean, if you see the film of some of these markets, it's horrendous, absolutely horrendous.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

If you could change one thing, then what would it be?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, start respecting the environment and animals start realizing that it's our foolish, greedy, selfish behavior, it's our materialistic lifestyle or it's the desperation of poverty that have created these conditions. But also the factory farms in our countries, they should not be allowed to continually harm the environment. Billions of animals needing to be fed, clear the environment to grow the grain, to feed them, use fossil fuels to get the grain to the animals, the animals to the abattoir, the meat to the table, wastewater, changing vegetable to animal protein. And then animals produce methane gas in their digestion that we all do. But these are billions of animals adding to the greenhouse gases. You know, they're not only terribly cruel, but they're very environmentally destructive. And so we need to have no more wild animals sold in these wildlife meat markets. We have, we have to stop this treatment of domestic animals who are individuals with personalities. Do you know pigs, for example? Just one example. Pigs are as intelligent as dogs. And I always tell people to Google, not Picasso the artist, but pigcasso and the number of people who've googled pig caso and told me they'll never eat bacon again is amazing. So, you know, when you want to change people's minds, get to the heart. It's such a good message.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Well, I can think of few people who've done more than you to try and capture the hearts and minds, certainly the next generation to try and protect wildlife. Wild places. For several decades now, I believe you spent more than 300 days a year traveling on tour, performing in front of huge audiences. Where are you happiest these days? At the family home in Bournemouth traveling the world or back with the chimpanzees in Gombe?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, Gombe is very different from how it was. I said, I don't know the chimps anymore. And, you know, I don't want to go climbing up to the tops of the mountains anymore. I'm pretty fit, but I've got a knee that sometimes it just. It's been doing it for years and years, but it suddenly conks out. I don't want to cause people all the trouble of falling around, hurting myself high up in a mountain. But if they're low down, then they're usually tourists there that I don't like either. So I do like being out in the forest. But it's when I'm here in Bournemouth, where I am right now, in the house I grew up in from the war onwards, that I can really be me. You know, when I'm going through any airport, I cannot go through an airport without somebody coming up and saying, are you Jane Goodall? You look like Jane Goodall. Can I ever say, could you sign this? You know, but here in Bournemouth, well, there's one or two people who recognize me, but basically I'm with my family. There's six of us in the house, and I'm just me, just who I know I am an ordinary person who's had good luck and managed to do quite interesting things in my life.

[Jim Al-Khalili]

Jane Goodall, it's been an absolute delight. Thank you very much for sharing your life Scientific.

[Jane Goodall]

Well, thanks very much for putting up with me for so long. Lovely talking to you as well. And you know, chimpanzees don't say goodbye, they just walk away. Isn't that funny?

[Jim Al-Khalili]

And before you walk away, I just want to say thank you again to Jane Goodall and to my producer, Anna Buckley. I'm Jim Akalili and this is the Life Scientific podcast. Do subscribe if you like this kind of thing. I've talked to so many inspiring and admirable men and women and learned about everything from chimpanzees to craters on the moon. Seeking, pushing, optimizing, creating, learning, discovering.

[Jane Goodall]

At Aramco, we believe in harnessing the

[Jim Al-Khalili]

power of data to push the limits of what's possible. That's how we deliver reliable energy to millions across the world. Aramco, an integrated energy and chemicals company. Learn more about [e-mail]

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