← The Lila Rose Show
The Lila Rose Show
E301: Relationship Expert: Respect is More Important Than Love | Lila Rose Show
02:06:35
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- [00:01]
A
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- [00:57]
B
Women change for relationships. Men change for consequences. So find a man who's already changed because he's already had the consequences. You need to find the man who wants to build a business with you, not the man who wants to be stimulated by you. A real woman with real value does not compete with anybody.
- [01:10]
A
All those questions you would recommend for the first date, really?
- [01:13]
B
And second date.
- [01:14]
A
I mean instead of like, let's just get to know each other and see if the vibe is good.
- [01:16]
B
Yeah, that's what the Bible says. Yeah. Get to know each other and do the vibe. That's what it says. For eight years. There's one specific way that men need to be sharing with their wives. Four steps.
- [01:24]
A
I think a lot of women are going to say it feels impossible to find this guy.
- [01:27]
B
A lot of modern men are raised by women. But when you put push on a man, then ask him to start thinking critically and having conversations, he'll give you better answers. Turn your red flags into green flags by being clear that you know them, you're honest about them and you're working on them.
- [01:43]
A
Thank you so much for listening to the Lila Rose Show. By clicking on this video and listening to this episode. You're trusting us with your time and I'm so grateful for that. We are trying to get better every single episode. So continue to leave your feedback, we read your comments and we take it to heart. Also, thank you so much to everyone who has been subscribing. If you aren't already subscribed, be sure to hit that subscribe button. And if you enjoy this episode, please leave this episode a like. Also go over to patreon.com Lila Rose show a big thank you to everybody who's supporting this show and its mission by joining our Patreon. You can get ad free episodes, behind the scenes access and if you're a monthly paid subscriber, you get 30% off all of our merch. If you're an annual paid subscriber, you get one piece of merch, your choice and we will send it to you for free. Thank you so much to all of our patrons. Adam Lane Smith, welcome back to the podcast.
- [02:30]
B
I'm so glad to be here again. Lila, thank you for having me.
- [02:32]
A
I am delighted. And congratulations on your almost born number six.
- [02:37]
B
Number six child so far. People always say, why do you have six kids? Haven't you done enough to your wife? And I say it was her idea in the first place.
- [02:44]
A
I love that. There's so much that I want to talk to you about today and the topic that I think has been one of the most asked for about on the show and, and that people seem to be very helped by is the question of how do we find and marry well, the person that God may have for me. And so I wanted to kick this off by asking you, why do you think today it has seemed so especially difficult for people to find the right person to marry and to even get married.
- [03:15]
B
What do you think most people think marriage is today, in 2026? What have you seen? What do they think? What do they think the nature of the relationship is?
- [03:23]
A
I think that it might look different for different folks, but largely speaking, it involves a nice fancy wedding. So I think the wedding is actually a lot about the marriage for the initial view people have. And then it's some sort of, you know, you get a house together, you move in together, you probably have a few kids together. And you know, if your parents made mistakes, you don't make them. And if they didn't make mistakes, you try to do it like your parents.
- [03:49]
B
It is get together, give each other good feelings till one of us dies. That's what most people are doing. It's a friend that you sleep with and pay bills with. That's what most people are thinking marriage is. And that's why marriage is failing so bad today as we have cut it down to such a pointless little thing. That's not what marriage ever has been. Biblical marriage and just human marriage in every culture and every civilization for all of human history has always been a business.
- [04:14]
A
A business.
- [04:15]
B
It will always be a business. It has always been a business and it needs to be A business, it has to, it is a business arrangement. And when we start turning it into an emotional arrangement, first that's where we go wrong. And we did that 100 years ago and it's been devastation ever since.
- [04:30]
A
So you're saying it wasn't until maybe 100 years ago, and I'm guessing the western largely world, especially us, we started to view marriage as an emotional affair and not as a business relationship.
- [04:42]
B
Correct.
- [04:43]
A
What does that mean?
- [04:45]
B
Marriage is the center of every other business you will ever create in your life. Whether that's the business of children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, if it's starting an actual company together and physically protecting that company, if it's running a household together, if it's running a non profit. You and your husband have a tremendous amount going on. I know that you do. Your marriage is the business, the core business that everything else is a subsidiary of. So you form a business contract together, agreeing that we will do this forever, for the rest of our lives. We'll keep growing our skills, we will unite and be one together, one entity. This is a company. You've built a company together and that's why you guys are winning in your marriage. But that's what marriage always has been. Now it's also supposed to be joining larger family structures and uniting groups, tribes, neighborhoods, everything bonding together. So it's not meant to be two human beings in isolation either. But putting that aside, even if it is two human beings today, it's a business. And we have to pick a business partner who is savvy, whose skill set matches ours, whose weaknesses are fixed by our strengths, their strengths, their weaknesses, us. All of that has to be bonded together. And we have to really look at that. It would be much smarter for people today to read a book about how to pick a co founder than to pick a romantic partner.
- [06:03]
A
So I have so many questions about what you just said and I get that a lot. There's a lot that's so compelling there. But first of all, what? Love. The role of love and attraction.
- [06:13]
B
Love is absolutely vital in a marriage. It absolutely is.
- [06:16]
A
Feelings of love, not just and by love, obviously we should define it. It's a choice to will the good of the other, but also the feelings of love and attraction.
- [06:23]
B
Feelings of attraction, feelings of commitment, feelings of affection, those are there. I tend to think that love itself is not a feeling. Most people think it is. There's feelings associated with it, certainly, and we, and we can wrap those up and call them love. But love itself is doing what is truly best for the other human Being not what makes them comfortable or even what makes them happ necessarily about what's truly best for them. That's what it means. When the Bible says love thy neighbor, it doesn't mean have affection for your neighbor. It means do what's actually best for your neighbor. So yes, it is important that a marriage grow in love and intimacy and affection and all of those things that we call. But it needs to be business first. I'm not advocating for arranged marriage, maybe assisted marriage. Right, but. But it needs to be. Can we work together before it's. Do we have wild, inescapable passion for each other that can be built.
- [07:12]
A
But would you say the base level is you need to feel attraction for the person. It doesn't need to be wild crazy infatuation, but there needs to be at least attraction. Would you say it's like a floor level basis or.
- [07:24]
B
Yeah. I have a lot of coaching clients come to me and they ask and I have three chemistry process that you go through. One is primal chemistry. Usually we need to be about 7 out of 10 a person. When you have to like what they sound like, how they smell, how they talk, how they act, their sense of humor. About 7 out of 10. We know that when you have rich oxytocin bonding hormone, that takes months to build, when you have that, they go up by about 20%. So that seven out of 10 turns into a nine out of 10 for each side. Right? Then there's personal chemistry number two, which is our values, our goals. Most people substitute this for the music we like and the movies we like in the video games and the Netflix shows. And that's everything about how we bond. But it's supposed to be our religious faith, our beliefs, our goals, our desires, what we're building and crafting more business arrangement. And then number three is the attachment chemistry. You knew I was going to do that. So the attachment chemistry of can we form relationships where we actually resolve issues transparently and explicitly, or do we keep everything inside and try to just buckle down on our own? Those three types of chemistry are crucial. Yes, primal chemistry is there, but it doesn't need to be 11 out of 10 like most people think.
- [08:28]
A
So using that framework to start with primal chemistry, it sounds like that's not something you can develop except for that extra 20% after you build trust with the person. It's either there or it's not.
- [08:39]
B
Women can develop it a little bit.
- [08:41]
A
I think that I've, I mean, I've seen that, yes, you know, absolutely.
- [08:44]
B
Women can foster it a Little bit. Women can be forgiving of a man who's a little uglier or a little less attractive in some ways. Men need usually about six and a half, seven out of ten to begin with. We're just very visually stimulated creatures, unfortunately, in that regard. But every man has a different type. So any person out there who's worrying that she's not a Barbie doll, you don't have to be right. Find the guy that likes who you are. But about 7 out of 10 for every person is what they should be.
- [09:07]
A
And so that's more like nature, not nurture. That's more the natural stuff you have as opposed to what you can build.
- [09:14]
B
There's an element of it, absolutely. Yeah. The oxytocin and the vasopressin bonding hormones increase that and help. But there does need to be a base element.
- [09:22]
A
Now, just before we move on to the other forms of chemistry and then into the whole work of finding and building a marriage as a business, like you're describing, is there any advice you have for people about preparing themselves to be on just that first level of chemistry, on that primal chemistry, the Most likely of 6 or 7 of the person that they would desire?
- [09:43]
B
Absolutely. Remember that no matter who you are, what you look like, what your hair is, your body shape, male, female, whoever you are, you are somebody's type. The goal is not to become everybody's type. The goal is to become the best, most attractive version of the type that you are so that the people who are attracted to you, spot you and desire you. So that you have that. If you have whatever body type you have, make sure you're living to it. Let's just say that in the most tasteful way, obviously.
- [10:10]
A
What is that meaning? Like, even if you're built larger or smaller, whatever it is, be healthy as best you can so you're more. Most. You're in your most true form. Not the cultural, societal norm form, but your most true form to attract that mate.
- [10:24]
B
Absolutely. If you're afraid that your hair is the wrong color, if you're afraid that you are too fat in certain areas, too skinny in other areas, if you're afraid that your eyebrows are a wrong shape, or your nose is a certain shape, or your lips are too thin or too fat or whatever it is, optimize. Because understand, every person has a different type. Every person has a range of what they prefer. They look at their mom for their first years of life and they probably want to see you and their mom. It's a strange thing, to be honest with you. My mother was a redhead, and every woman I ever dated was a redhead. Down to my wife, who's a redhead, down to my daughters, who are all redheads. Now I have that in me. I just could not be with a woman who was blonde. That's just never going to work for me.
- [11:01]
A
Have you noticed that pattern? Men tend to be attracted to women that look like a younger version of their mothers.
- [11:07]
B
Quite often. Quite often. That's often the case sometimes. Sometimes other things come in and skew that as well. But a lot of times I strangely have found that, yes, it seems very true.
- [11:19]
A
Interesting. So then the general advice, though, and then you said try to augment or try to develop whatever your physicality is to be the best you can be. I just want to get your take on this because it seems to be all the rage looks maxing, because I do think it impacts bonding and it impacts the way we see ourselves and other people and how we feel love and how we receive and give love. A lot of people are pursuing plastic surgery. You know, things that are more light, like fillers and Botox or, you know, there's younger people like Claviclear who's, you know, I don't know if they're like, breaking their bones and then restructuring them. So there's extreme versions of this, but largely speaking, the beauty industry, not just like makeup, but beauty treatments and beauty cosmetic surgeries has increased dramatically. It's in the billions and billions of dollars increases every year, year over year. Your average girl is considering whether she should get fillers and, you know, Botox, and she's in her 20s. Do you think that that's good, bad? Do you think that affects attachment and preparing to meet the right mate?
- [12:23]
B
I think that people are desperate to try to find somebody and get them to pay attention. I think that people are out there trying to stimulate other people visually, and that's not the process here. You're trying to attract somebody, which is different from stimulating them. A lot of women are modeling themselves based on the porn industry because that's what they think most men are attracted to and want and look at. And a lot of men who have insecure attachment and problems and biochemical issues because of their attachment challenges are dopamine focused. So if you want to be a woman who stimulates dopamine in people, they're probably not going to consider you for marriage. You're going to look like somebody who is there for dopamine, and that's going to trigger their brain in a very specific way. It's unfortunate but it's true. If you want to be a woman who is trying to find a business partner, you're probably not looking for a porn saturated man. You're looking for a man who's looking for a partner who takes herself seriously in those areas and is not trying to go for vanity. If you look desperate, they will assume you're desperate.
- [13:19]
A
Spoken like a true father. That's such good advice what you just said. And it's really lovely coming from a man who has your therapeutic background and everything else. Because I think women and men need to hear that message where yes, you want to maximize your beautiful God given body, take care of it, present yourself the best you can. But if you're trying to appeal to look a certain way, that is ultimately a pornified version that the culture is like pushing. I mean that's where it came from. Like you look at like the Mona Lisa, the poor Mona Lisa would get torn apart, you know, on social media today in terms of like not seen as the perfect ideal woman. Like her lips and you know, her eyebrows and you know, even her, her body, like she's larger woman and I just think, but she's this lovely, mysterious, you know, inviting creature that like everyone has marveled at, you know, now for centuries.
- [14:08]
B
I agree.
- [14:09]
A
It's really hard to find good content to watch with my kids for when they are allowed to have screen time. I'm always on the lookout for low stimulating, story driven and values based kids content. That's why I'm very excited about Brave plus. Brave plus is a new streaming platform with content that reinforces our values instead of undermining them. Every show is vetted by real Christian parents not only to screen out messages that are harmful, but to also avoid over stimulating video content that's linked to mental and behavioral issues. When check it out, you'll find classics like Strawberry Shortcake, Babar, Paddington as well as new shows like season two of Iggy and Mr. Kirk starring Kirk Cameron. And right now, just for my listeners, you can try braveplus free for seven days. Go to braveplus.com lila that's braveplus.com lila for a free seven day trial this year America celebrates 250 years of independence. And if you want to eat and shop American this year and goodranchers.com is the way to do it. From the farm to the final seal on every Good Ranchers box, everything takes place right here in America. Even their customer support team is entirely national. And Good Ranchers offers incredibly delicious pre trimmed meat subscription boxes that are super easy to manage if you're ever traveling or need to pause for any reason. Our family favorite in my household are the chicken breasts. But you can also get beef, fish, pork, or seed oil free chicken nuggets, another family favorite. If you subscribe right now, not only will you get free meat for life in every subscription box, but you'll also get $25 off your first order with the Code Lila. That's Code lila@good ranchers.com and I will
- [15:52]
B
say this in my coaching practice, I work with so many people and I have a lot of actual literal global supermodels coming to me at this point. Sometimes they're coming with their husband or their boyfriend and they. I keep hearing the same thing. He's not attracted to me anymore.
- [16:06]
A
The supermodel is angry supermodels.
- [16:08]
B
He's not attracted. He can't get an erection. He just. Our sex life is dead. I don't feel attractive. I feel ugly. These are the women that every woman on earth is comparing herself to and they are saying, I feel ugly, unattracted, and my husband doesn't want me and won't look at me. That's dopamine. Dopamine burns out. It has an absolute end. There's novelty dopamine of if you're dating somebody, it's about five to seven months of dating and it falls off a cliff and it's gone. So if you are trying to look 9 out of 10, it just drags on for an extra couple weeks and then it dies. We're not meant to bond through dopamine. We can't. It's an object thing. It's not a human thing. So for all the women out there who are trying to be stimulating, you think you're competing with the hub, you think you're competing with Tinder, you think you're competing with Instagram. You're not. Those are the wrong chemicals. A real woman with real value does not compete with anybody. And that's what I want to send out there to all the women who are listening right now. You are not in competition with anyone. You need to find the man who wants to build a business with you, not the man who wants to be stimulated by you.
- [17:15]
A
Mic drop. That's so good. And it's so needed for women and men to hear today. What do you tell those couples? What do you tell those couples where they're objectively some of the most beautiful people on the planet and they're married or they're in relationship and they can't even sexually, they're not even sexually attracted anymore.
- [17:32]
B
That's a great question. I usually start asking the man, I don't blame him, but I ask him, I say, do you know how to, when you come home, breathe and let everything out and then actually be present with her? Does your mind turn off? Are you able to immerse with her? Or is she one more problem to solve? Do you know how to talk with her? Do you know how to receive the peace she's trying to give you? Do you know how to help her feel safe and cared for so she can give you that peace? Do you know that your nervous system has another mode you can flip into, which is arrest and digest mode? Most of these men have what we call avoidant attachment style. They're incredibly high performers, sometimes in the multi billion dollar level. And they cannot click into a peace mode. So their receptors for bonding are closed. And they just go through their life looking at one beautiful thing after another, trying to get stimulation because they can never rest. So there's that woman who adores him. She's a supermodel, yes, but she's a woman first and she's trying to give him peace and warmth and love and immerse him in her goodness. And he can't, so he can't receive everything that she's trying to give. So of course it's just dopamine stimulation that will die. No matter how beautiful the woman is, that will die at some point because he can't receive her. There's a lot of men out there who can't receive women. They're a lot like the dog chasing the car and then they catch the car and have no idea what to do. So they find the next car that's driving by.
- [18:47]
A
So these men are still sexually interested, but they are not interested in that warm, inviting, peace filled woman in their own home. Even if she's objectively 10 out of 10, you know, gorgeous, he now needs to go achieve the next maybe sexual conquest. And that's part of what might be destroying the relationship.
- [19:02]
B
Absolutely. And many of the men don't want to. So they actually buckle down and say, I'll just never be happy again.
- [19:07]
A
And they don't want to break up
- [19:08]
B
the marriage, they don't want to betray her. They're very ethical men. They're trying hard, but now it's my life will be joyless and I will continue pouring myself out. And this is where a lot of good Christian men get trapped with this high performing Christian men. I just have to sacrifice my happiness for the rest of my life, never be fulfilled again and never have joy. And the wife is sitting there saying, I don't want that for you. What do we do? And they just look at each other and have no clue. Wow, that's attachment right there. By the way.
- [19:37]
A
What do you tell that man? What does he have to do to be able to break out of that terrible pattern he's in? Well, and the woman, they're both in a bad pattern.
- [19:45]
B
There's a couple of things I tell people and it cannot be five hour conversations that actually is death for everybody.
- [19:50]
A
Talking, talking, talking.
- [19:51]
B
Most people get stuck in a loop, right, and they don't know what to do. I tell people there's three minute conversations you need to be having. And if you can't have a three minute conversation about desire, about needs, it's about hopes, about peace, about solving a problem, then you can't have any conversation. Three minutes is all you need to fix most problems. If you can't, there's an attachment problem and a skill issue right there. So what I tell men first is learn with a skill to manage your nervous system and bring it down. Nobody on the planet can calm your nervous system except you. And you have to use physical techniques. God gave us one brain, but he split it in half. Our emotional side takes over. The logical brain goes down. You cannot logic your way out of your feelings. God also gave us a body and a nervous system to manage the rest of our brain. So you use your body to manage the nervous system and cool the emotions. Men don't know how to do this today. You have to learn. Number one, she can't get to you while your guard is up. When you manage your nervous system correctly, then you can begin sharing with her and talking with her and relaxing with her. As you communicate and build expectations and clear relationship structures, you can share your desires. She can soften and you can soften. You can actually immerse the in her nervous system as it's calm and settled. Men are supposed to provide safety, but a woman turns that safety back into peace for him and rests him in it. If he can't do that, he just needs to learn to fix his nervous system.
- [21:05]
A
How do you do that? What's the tips that you give a guy who's just so amped up he can't just rest, calm and receive, be that safe place for her and let her rest, calm and then they really connect.
- [21:15]
B
Yeah. So a few things. One, if his oxytocin's been low for life from childhood, again, avoidant attachment style Typically very high performers. Almost all of them have this. They can never ever rest. So they work 16 hours a day. They build great companies, they're incredible achievers, but at home they're usually awful. There's no other word for it. They're not horrible or cruel, but they just are closed and cold. They need to learn first to take breaths and reset in a moment and calm down. I have a specific 13 minute technique that I teach my coaching clients that just brings them down from 8 out of 10 to 1 out of 10 nervous system and they can calm down and reset their nervous system through vagus stimulation, through body techniques and just managing it through breathing and stretching and all of these pieces. It's amazing how fast it works when you know what to do. And as you come down, your oxytocin receptors begin to open up and unblock from the cortisol. Now this allows that woman to then stimulate you with touch, scratching your scalp, non sexual touch, holding you, touching you, playing with you, flirting with you. You can't even have flirtation in your marriage if you're in a stimulated, sympathetic nervous system state. It's the rest and digest parasympathetic state where playfulness and fun happens. Most of these men tell me, I want my wife to be more playful and flirtatious, but he's not giving her the safety to help her click into that mode either. So he's preventing her from doing it. If you can then play Oxytocin levels go up, which releases a chemical gaba, gaba, which goes up, which suppresses your cortisol going forward. And now you're kept in a long term, productive, healthy rest and digest state. We see your nervous system improve, your immune system improve. Men become more resilient against cancer, heart attack, stroke, stronger, more arousal, shall we say, but also more joy in his life. If his Testosterone was down 30% from chronic stress, which we see in our culture, it actually begins to go up. At this point, his human growth hormone goes up, his sleep improves, his wound healing, improves, his muscles grow stronger and faster. Everything improves biochemically for him. So I hear a lot and I'm sure you hear this too. What do women bring to the table? Right, that's the question going around on social media all the time. This is what women bring to the table. But most men have the door locked in her face and he doesn't realize it.
- [23:25]
A
What would you say to. For those three minute, that three minute conversation. So once he can get in enough state of chill, including deep breathing and just trying to Relax. And then you have these saying this three minute conversation. What is that? Three minute conversation. How do you have that three minute conversation instead of getting into endless circles of or loops of conflict or disagreement or misunderstanding or whatever.
- [23:51]
B
That's a great question. Here's a three minute question. Someone want to time me three minutes?
- [23:54]
A
I do. Let's time it.
- [23:55]
B
Yeah, here's a three minute conversation or less that a man like that a high performer can have with his wife to actually begin calming down at home.
- [24:03]
A
By the way, one quick question. Does this also apply to dates?
- [24:07]
B
It can and should. This works perfectly. If you're dating and you're getting ready to go into a process into a relationship, this is how you could do it at the beginning and set up this expectation. Or you're a husband coming home to your wife and you're having difficulties.
- [24:18]
A
Amazing.
- [24:19]
B
Let's. Let's assume he's coming home to his wife.
- [24:21]
A
Amazing.
- [24:22]
B
And he wants to rest and has never told her before that he can't sound good. Two minutes.
- [24:26]
A
Yes.
- [24:26]
B
I'm gonna pretend you're a wife.
- [24:27]
A
Okay,
- [24:30]
B
sweetheart, I need to be honest with you. I always want to take care of you and I always want you to be okay. And a lot of times it feels like you're not. So when I come home and you look stressed out or tired or frazzled, I feel like I need to take care of you immediately. And my brain won't turn off, so I stay in problem mode. I'm not telling you not to have feelings, but when I come home, I would love to rest with you in a good peaceful environment. First, give me a status report. Tell me if there's any red flags. If there's no fires, I'm going to do my nervous system work and cool down. And I'd like some time to decompress. But then I want to sit with you. I want us to laugh. I want us to play for at least 30 minutes, maybe an hour. I need that time with you, but I need to know that I can turn off. Can you give me that report? Give me the decompression and can we play just a little bit? If we can do that, I know I can be there for you.
- [25:18]
A
Now I'm imagining what a wife or other person might say and they might say. It all sounds great. I'm stressed out of my mind. I had a super stressful day and I, you know, if they have kids, there's kids running around, there's dinner. If this is the end of work day and so you going off and De stressing and then coming to me and just wanted to hang out, you know, I don't know how we're going to make that happen. Sounds nice.
- [25:44]
B
We need to make this happen because otherwise you and I, we're not connecting the way we need to. I'm not getting what I need. But you're not also getting the best of me and I don't want to do that. So I agree. Let's build some systems where you're less stressed. Let's take some of that off your platform plate. Let's work together and get that corrected, number one. Number two, let's time our schedules. If I need some time to decompress, you obviously do too. And maybe we need to time the time with the kids. Maybe it's at night, Maybe it's from 9 to 9:45. Let's build that. Let's be smart about this. But this is absolutely mandatory. We can't, we can't not do this.
- [26:14]
A
So you're saying for the sake of the health of the relationship, for our
- [26:17]
B
business, every business that comes from it, this is non negotiable.
- [26:22]
A
So would you recommend sticking the kids in front of a 20 minute cartoon every evening? Like, what are the stakes here?
- [26:30]
B
That's totally fine.
- [26:31]
A
You think so?
- [26:32]
B
I think that if we need to, then sure, let's be strategic. Right? 20 minutes of cartoons every night. But the parents have a loving, intimate, intact, romantic relationship where the father can be emotionally connected to his kids and his wife and show them that. Where the mom is calmer and more relaxed and at peace and breathing, where everybody is actually flowing and they get to talk about what's going on and share and the kids see the parents managing and then they have a strong, vibrant marriage for the next 50 years that the kids get to model on. I think that 20 minutes of cartoons, especially quality material, the chosen adventures is great. My kids are loving that. It's pretty safe. That would be a great payoff. To achieve what we're looking for, we don't have to have absolute perfection. We need to do some balancing and take care of ourselves. But the marriage is everything.
- [27:24]
A
Shout out to Brave plus it's a kid. A low stem streaming network that we love in the show. I, I remember when I was Joe and I were dating, we went to counseling, marriage counseling in preparation of where we were engaged, preparation to be married. And the counselor, very older gentlemen. He had done decades of counseling couples, families. And he said, you should talk. It's different than what you're saying because talk was a big Part of it, which I think what you're saying is more valuable, because sometimes talk can be exhausting, especially for the man. But he was saying, 30 minutes. Close the door. Talk to each other. Put the kids in front of a tv. Like, just if you have kids, put them in front of a tv. You need to look each other in the eyes and talk.
- [28:06]
B
Yes.
- [28:07]
A
In terms of activity, let's say there's those three minutes at least of talk. But what else?
- [28:12]
B
Three minutes to solve a problem.
- [28:14]
A
To solve a problem.
- [28:15]
B
Correct. Okay, absolutely.
- [28:16]
A
But you can talk more than three minutes.
- [28:17]
B
Absolutely. And you might need to set a schedule to have bullet points that you both come with for that conversation. But it needs to be short, not five hours talk. There's another way that men do this, and I teach men all the time. Do you know how to talk to your wife? And they always say, I have no idea. I said, would you like to learn a method of talk that can. You can do it about five to ten minutes a day that will make your sex life triple. And they say, well, yeah, Adam, I'm willing to learn that. So I say, okay, here's what you need to understand. Your wife needs to know that she is becoming more personally valuable to you over time because you value her wisdom and her character and her experience. Wives know that they are trading youth and beauty for wisdom and experience. It's an amazing trade that makes both of your lives better. But she needs to know that it is not youth and beauty that's keeping you with her. It's who she is. So you need to have conversations with her at least three to four times a week where you really embody that. You with me so far? Yes, that's sounding good. I see the look in your eyes. So to do this, there's one specific way that men need to be sharing with their wives. Very, very specific, and it's counterintuitive. Four steps. You know I always have numbers, right? Four steps. Number one. Sweetheart, can I bounce some ideas off of you? I have something that's going on in my life right now. I just kind of want to run by you, see what your brain does. The male's brain observes problems in the back and jumps forward to solve them as fast as possible, but without much nuance. You might have noticed this sometimes with men that we get very laser focused and we jump too fast. The female brain observes in the back and goes back and forth across the hemispheres to make connections, relationships, and analyze data. Slower at decision making, but more nuanced and more thoughtful. We're supposed to be this way. So our brains are actually meant to fit in like this and work together. God built us that way. So, sweetheart, can I run an idea by you? Yeah, no problem. Here's a problem I'm facing challenge. Maybe it's at work, right? Steve at work won't stop talking. He's always bothering me, and he's being very rude, and I don't like it, right? Steve at work won't stop talking. It's affecting my work performance. You talk about how you feel. So the problem you're facing, the feeling you're having. This is useful sensory data. It tells her what your priority level is, how significant it is, how much time you have left. It also humanizes you so she understands what decisions you're making and why. It is really frustrating me because I am. I'm very prideful about my work. I love my work. I really take it seriously. And it's making it harder because Steve won't stop talking. Number three, the solution you think you're going to apply? I think I'm just going to punch Steve right in the mouth. That will make him stop and he'll leave me alone. It'd be great. Male brain, right? Most men stop here and say, adam, if I already have a solution, why am I talking to my wife? This is stupid. I'm just gonna go do it. Here's why. Number four. Before I do that, is there anything I've missed? Do you have any thoughts to add to that as I'm making this decision? It's not, should I do that? You're not making her the boss and making her the one responsible. Is there anything I've missed? You're actually checking in with her and saying, look, you know my way of thinking. You know where I'm short, you know where I'm good, you know where I'm bad, You know everything about me. And your brain works different from mine. I trust you. Can you run this through your brain and tell me what I'm missing? And the woman's brain, it's beautiful. When my wife does this, she just comes up with crazy things I would never have imagined. Well, this could work. But this and this and this. This will be a problem. Here's this. A man goes, wow, I never thought about that. Okay, so if I do this, I add this piece, and usually women will present it as well. What about this? Have you thought about this? They'll ask questions. Women don't usually like to say direct, but they'll ask questions and stimulate his thinking brain. And this is the discussion. This is you actually getting your wife's wisdom because no one will ever know you better than your wife knows you. You realistically fair.
- [32:04]
A
That's so good. I'm a huge fan of We Heart Nutrition. It is a pro life family owned business that donates 10% of every purchase to pro life causes. We Heart Nutrition makes premium research backed supplements here in the USA for men and women at every stage of life in the supplements most bioavailable form for maximum absorption and digestion from preconception to pregnancy, postpartum menopause and more. I personally take the postnatal supplements and have been taking them since I gave birth to our last baby and it has helped me feel healthier than ever after my last pregnancy. You can take We Heart Nutrition's two minute quiz to figure out which supplements can best benefit your state of life@weheartnutrition.com and use the code LILA for 20 off your order. That's weheartnutrition.com and use the Code LILA for a full 20 off your order. On this show we support moms and babies in everything that we do, including how we shop. EveryLife.com has premium diapers, baby products and women's products. We use their diapers in our household and they are made from the highest quality materials, are supremely soft and breathable, and are leak proof for up to 12 hours. When you sign up for EveryLife.com's Changing Lives Club, you get 15% off every order. A free tote, an exclusive online community and after your third order you can select a church or a pregnancy resource center and EveryLife will donate a month's supply of diapers on your behalf. You get the best baby and women's products delivered right to your door and you get to help moms and babies in need. If you use the code Lila at checkout, you'll get an additional 10% off your first order. Save lives with Pro Life diapers, wipes, hygiene and women's products over@everylife.com use code LILA@ checkout. I think there is sort of a narrative around men that men cannot show vulnerability or weakness, that it's weak to show weakness and men are not able to express their feelings intimately with a woman because they're afraid of rejection or not looking strong enough or they don't know how to even verbalize that.
- [34:11]
B
Yeah. So I tell men and I hear this a lot. You get two choices. You can show weakness or you can show stupidity. Which one do you want to show weakness in this case is. I'm having a challenge. I need to fix it. I'm working on it. I'd like some advice and some counsel. I'm a wise enough man to know I'll never be perfect. So I have some challenges. Can you run it through your brain and give me experience and the benefit of your wisdom so you can look weak, vulnerable in that moment because you're facing a challenge and grow their respect for you because you're a man who faces your challenges head on and does something about about them. Or you can look like an idiot who says, I can't ask anyone for anything, so I'm going to get it wrong all the time. Two choices.
- [34:52]
A
What if they think they're getting it right?
- [34:54]
B
That's fantastic. And they might for a while. But nobody, no man is an island. And every man, even righteous men, sin 40 times a day, so we're told.
- [35:03]
A
And the wife, the woman, is supposed to be helpful in this way, is what you're saying. And that's also a pathway to connecting and bonding with her.
- [35:10]
B
Right?
- [35:10]
A
So it's a business arrangement you need to invite. It sounds like what you're saying to me. Whether it's in a relationship or you're getting to know someone and you're testing connection and developing connection, or you're married, is in order to bond with your woman. And for a woman to bond with her man, there needs to be an enmeshing of both feeling the struggles of the daily life together and solving the problems of the daily life together.
- [35:31]
B
There's a basic bonding hormone called vasopressin that men have more receptors for. Vasopressin is only activated when we solve problems together as a team. It is not activated under any other real circumstances between humans. It's also, when we see it in mammals, it's the thing that makes them monogamous and protective. If we block it in mammals, they start cheating. If we flood them, they become more monogamous, even if they were cheating before. Men need this. It's what makes World War II veterans hug each other and cry after 50, 60 years when they see each other again. This is the bonding hormone for loyalty, especially with men. And then a drive toward passion, sex, desire, connection, protection, everything. This is fulfillment for men. This is the commitment hormone. Women have it too, but men have it more. He cannot do this if he is not bonding with you. And women know this intuitively. It's also, again, marriage is a business. I believe the man is the CEO. Constantly running around, putting out fires, facing problems, bringing vision. But if you hire a chief operations officer, a COO who runs on the inside and runs your company, and then you shut her up, lock her in her office, never speak to her, and then you just walk by occasionally to look at her because she's pretty. Why have you hired her? And most women know that it kills her job security when you don't talk to her. So what kind of idiot CEO hires an executive and co founds a company with her and then says, I can never, ever, ever tell my executive and my co founder that I don't know how to do something, I will guess and do it wrong because that's better than asking for her help. It is the dumbest thing that you can possibly do. And I know that men do it because they're afraid that women will lose respect for them. Do it the correct way. You don't go to her sobbing on the floor saying, I'm so broken and sad. Please fix me or please rescue me. You be the CEO now. You be my mommy. You go and say, I'm having these challenges and I'm working on them. Help me do that.
- [37:27]
A
And you also don't, just like you said, block her out and just suffer, suffer, suffer, suffer. And never invite her into problem solving with you.
- [37:35]
B
That's a great way for a man to go on and start having affairs that he doesn't want to have down the road because he'll convince himself he doesn't have an ally, no one helps him, he's all alone. And then to be a good husband and keep going, he needs the dopamine. That's a great way for a man to convince himself that it's okay to have an affair. I work on those all the time. I have couples come in where one of them, the man usually has had an affair, he hates it, she hates it, and they want to fix it and they don't know how. That's how we have to fix it. Is the only way to fix it is by showing her that he is a different man and that he actually values her as a human being, not as a pretty object in his life.
- [38:12]
A
When you talk about vasopressin being this bonding hormone and this loyalty hormone, I think also about, you know, you mentioned The World War II veterans, you know, men who are on a sports team, you know, with other men, or they were in a fraternity with other men or they were just with other men. Military is obviously a prime example. And those lifelong friendships and connections that pass the test of time, and somehow those can feel deeper and safer and stronger. Than the woman. And I think women sometimes feel a sense of jealousy for their man connecting so deeply and feeling so safe with other men. But then they think, well, he needs that. I'm not really the best friend. I mean, I'm a friend, I'm a best friend. But he needs his male best friends, those guys. And I'm like the beautiful woman he adores. And so I'll kind of play that role. The beautiful woman that's like attractive and charming and then also the damsel in distress. Occasionally he can solve my problem and then let him go and be a guy. And I do think that's a bit of a stereotype that a lot of people just accidentally fall into living that way instead of, we are co equals CEO and CEO, but so he's, you know, he's the lead. But we're equal in terms of our toughness. We're going to be strong together in different ways and we're going to fight for this shared project we're building. And we have these beautiful roles in that. And we are more intimate than any other two people out there. I mean, we are this team. And the loyalty, the most loyalty is here. The most trust is here. It's not like he finally feels safe and trust and loyalty with the dudes and comes home to me and there's like chaos. We have that bond and it's tighter than anything.
- [39:51]
B
Yes, it is equal as co founders. First co founding a legacy that God is leading you to co found. Remember that marriage is a vocation. God doesn't give vocation. So you feel good God, God gives vocations to achieve a purpose. Marriage is to achieve a purpose. That's why it's a business. This is a vocation, not a fun retreat. You get to go on. So you have to be equal co founders first. Equal in human dignity and equal in value. And then God gives you roles inside of that that you specialize into. So you are equal co founders. And then he is the CEO and she is the coo. Some people like to argue with me and say, adam, the woman is the leader. Sometimes people say the man's the leader. I hear woman. Women say they're the leader. I think each one of them is leading in their own domain in separate ways. Masculine leadership on the outside and feminine leadership on the inside. We have different spheres. There's no reason to step on each other's toes. And there's no argument about who's more valuable or who's more important. The system dies if we are out of alignment. We are designed to be together and fit that way. Going back to your question a little bit earlier about how people can do this when they're looking for a partner, this is what you're filtering for. Can he work with me? Does he value a woman who brings insight and thoughtfulness? When I ask questions, does he answer them? Does he welcome them or does he run screaming from them? Does he ask me questions? What is he looking for? What's his vision? What kind of company does he want to build? If I want to open a spaghetti restaurant, he wants to open a Nike shoe factory, there's a problem. If he just wants to see where it goes for the next eight years, there's a problem. We're building a business. We're not just laying around on a beach thinking about a business. She needs to be effectively filtering as if she has $1 billion idea that she's finding the right co founder for. And you're either going to have that billion dollar idea turn into 10 billion with the right CEO or turn into 5 bucks with the wrong CEO. You need to make sure you're doing that.
- [41:43]
A
So a lot of questions about that and this is now going into the kind of mate selection process and then I want to talk about once the selection process has been completed and the marriage has commenced, the maybe concerns people have or they're like, oh, I wish I had known this Adam before I got married or oh, it's different than I thought we had discussed and like, you know, problem solving that. But for dating, even what you just said, I think for a lot of women will resonate with they would like to approach dating that way. Highly value himself. I have no competitor. I'm going to take care of myself and be the best I can be, you know, work on myself and then I'm going out to search for a co my CEO, I'm the COO and we're going to build something really beautiful together, blah, blah, blah. Right? It all sounds great, but I think a lot of women are going to say it's impossible, Adam. It's just, it feels impossible to find this guy first. Just filtering for guys that are going to respect chastity. You know, if you're a Christian who are not, who are going to be, you know, pure and who are not addicted already to porn, unfortunately that's like so many people because they get hooked as children and it's just horrific. And then like they have the right view of women, of respectful view, but then they're also traditional and that they want to be the man, right? So there's this, like, thing where they're not, like, a domineering man, but then they're also a man who wants to lead. And then. Oh, and they want to build something with me, and then we can make it all work. It's like, there's so many levels in that Mario Kart game that I think some women are just like, I'm out in the dating market, and I'm just having a lot of trouble finding that guy. And then I'm gonna say this from the man's point of view, because he has his own issues. You know, it's not like. It's just women have a hard time. Men are having a hard time.
- [43:28]
B
I. I hear the same thing from men. Men are convinced that women don't want marriage or kids anymore, and women are convinced men don't want marriage and kids anymore because nobody's talking about it. The biggest thing that I see is that nobody is willing to ask questions or be blunt about what they want. And I don't mean mean and nasty about it. Most women only become honest when they become mean and nasty because they're angry. Anger is the only thing that makes most people be honest in dating anymore. I think that people need to be leading with curiosity and politeness, but asking very blunt, direct questions. What I have found, actually, is that a lot of modern men are raised by women, and they're trying to be very, very accommodating. But when you push on a man and ask him to start thinking critically and having conversations, he'll give you better answers. Sometimes he's forming them on the spot. I'm not saying that it's her job to build a man. It's her job to inspire him through conversation to be the man that he is. I think that's one thing that's missing, is that most men don't know how to integrate with women because they don't know what women want. So my biggest thing, number one, is for women out there, start asking questions. What are you building in your life? What are you achieving in your life? Who's a mentor you look up to? What's a skill you're learning right now? What do you want to build for? Are you wanting to get married and have a wife or just have a girlfriend forever? It's okay. Whichever way. Just tell me so I make sure we're aligned. Right. It's not an angry conversation. It's a friendly one. What would you want a wife to do in your life? What's that vision? Do you want Kids. If so, why? The why is so crucial. Most women don't ask if you want to get married or have kids until year eight. So on the first date is where I tell women, start asking these things,
- [45:02]
A
all those questions you would recommend for the first date.
- [45:05]
B
First and second date and third date and third date. You start talking about the harsh realities of what each one of you is facing and what you're doing about it.
- [45:12]
A
I mean, I love that, but some people listening are like, too quick. What do you want to do? I mean, instead of like, let's just get to know each other and see if the vibe is good.
- [45:20]
B
Yeah, that's what the Bible says. Yeah. Get to know each other and do the vibe. That's what it says. For eight years, right? No.
- [45:25]
A
One date. One date. No.
- [45:26]
B
Well, they say the truth shall set you free. So I say tell the truth as fast as possible. But the harsher truths come on. Date number three. I have a whole three date method and people always tell me I'm crazy.
- [45:36]
A
We got to do the three date method.
- [45:37]
B
I know. We will. We will.
- [45:39]
A
I will say, though, I've talked and maybe these are anxious, avoidant men, or maybe they're women with their own attachment issues. But I have heard from some people, for men, I'll say this is specifically. I've heard this for, with some men. And I. And I've heard a version from women. So let me explain. With the men, it's. She just wanted to check her boxes. I was a box. I was a. I was a piece of paper.
- [45:59]
B
Yes.
- [46:00]
A
And I had boxes written up from my head to my toe. And she was checking boxes and they didn't all check. And then it was obnoxious and I didn't like her. And then the woman, it's like, he didn't really. I mean, the woman, it's more actually he didn't really want to get to know me. So there's actually the opposite issue a lot of the time.
- [46:16]
B
But there's a lot of wrong ways to do this. There's one right way to do it. There's a lot of wrong ways. Most people do it the wrong way by being pleasing and accommodating and friendly and just having fun for the first 20 dates. And then it goes nowhere. And they wonder why. And then they eventually get angry and upset and start dating angrily and demanding questions and bank statements and things like this. And this is also not correct. And then they start just running random checklists, hoping that a checklist will help them. And what you're doing is stimulating people or protecting yourself from people. You're not having relationships with people. Remember that these dating processes. You are trying to find one correct co founder that you can connect to human to human. That's secure attachment. You are scanning for the ability to have secure relationship so that you can then work together effectively as a team for the next 60 years. You have to start assessing that from date number one. You have to anything else is wrong.
- [47:10]
A
And so the questions you would recommend what is your three date method?
- [47:13]
B
First date primal chemistry. You talk, you laugh, you joke, you ask questions that are more probing. And you ask the why questions. What do you do for a living and why. Who's your best friend and why. Who have you learned from recently and what have you learned and why them? The why questions as you get to know them. A lot more primal chemistry. Do you like how they look, how they sound, how they laugh, how they talk? All of these pieces. By the end of the first date, you must must ask if they want a committed relationship and if so, what it looks like. Mandatory.
- [47:47]
A
Not necessarily. Do you want a committed relationship with me? But yeah.
- [47:50]
B
Getting married tomorrow. But yeah.
- [47:51]
A
Are you looking for a committed relationship right now?
- [47:53]
B
Then they have to say yes, that is all I want.
- [47:56]
A
But if they say like, well, I don't know. I just want to see where this goes.
- [47:59]
B
Great, fantastic. Go enjoy that with somebody else.
- [48:02]
A
Yes.
- [48:03]
B
Wonderful. You want to open a hot dog?
- [48:04]
A
A lot of girls think he's going to change his mind. And sometimes they do change their mind.
- [48:07]
B
Yeah. Women change for relationships, change for consequences.
- [48:11]
A
That's good.
- [48:12]
B
So find a man who's already changed because he's already had the consequences.
- [48:15]
A
Otherwise you're going to have to be his consequence and it's not going to be fun.
- [48:18]
B
Yeah. Then you're his mom.
- [48:19]
A
Yeah. Or you're going to have to like walk out dramatically and it's going to be a pain for terrible.
- [48:23]
B
I have 12 levels of consequences. I teach women as well because they don't know how to do that. It's got to do that. Just make him. I have numbers for every. It's. But it's just make him happy until I file for divorce. 25 years in.
- [48:34]
A
Ouch.
- [48:34]
B
That's what most women are doing.
- [48:36]
A
Ouch. Ouch.
- [48:37]
B
Yes.
- [48:37]
A
Okay, so date one. Primal chemistry. Is it there? Ask the why questions. You don't have to do all the questions, of course, but get a feel for them. Enjoy yourself. Right. Like verify the Get a glass of wine if it's a dinner date or enjoy the hike, whatever you're doing.
- [48:50]
B
Sure, but verify. Verify commitment.
- [48:52]
A
Verify commitment. Okay.
- [48:54]
B
That's their only target.
- [48:55]
A
Okay.
- [48:55]
B
Second date is personal chemistry. You ask a lot of questions about their values, their goals, their beliefs, their religion, their focus on philosophy or whatever it may be. Not intellectual, high level stuff necessarily, but personal stuff. And see if they are capable of personal conversation. See if they're capable of sharing emotional data. If they're not, they might be heavily avoidant and overly intellectual. But you need to have those questions on the second date. Yes. Okay. You can talk about movies and hobbies and interests. That's maybe 15% of what you're trying to build. It's not 90% like most people think. But make sure your values aligned, especially third date attachment chemistry. Let's talk about the real things that are actually a problem. Here's a challenge I'm working on resolving right now in myself, and here's what I'm doing about it, and here's how. So reveal personal vulnerability and challenge them to reveal as well. We all know there's landmines in dating. We all know there's red flags. What are they? Turn your red flags into green flags by being clear that you know them, you're honest about them, and you're working on them and actually working on them.
- [49:53]
A
Would you recommend the attachment framework? Say, like, I'm prone to, you know, anxious attachment. I have been in the past. It's something I've made a lot of progress on, I'm working on. But this is what that has looked like for me. This is the why. Like even just you absolutely can, if
- [50:06]
B
the other person's savvy for that. But even just describing what you do and how you're not doing it anymore, even just the behavior patterns. Describe the behavior patterns. Most people are more comfortable with that. If you say, hey, I'm taking Adam Lane Smith's course. I'm in his program. I went to his retreat. Right, Great. Okay, beautiful. But, but behaviors and what you're doing about them and challenge the other person to do the same if they can't be honest, get out. If they're just collapsing into it, get out. If they promise they're going to do something about it later, get out. And then you have these three dates of rock hard data that you can keep coming back to for the next six months if they deviate from it. You told me that. But you're doing this. What's going on? You said this, but you're doing this. You said this, but you're doing this. And you keep asking questions Forever. That's how you start compatibility testing and filtering. Because now you hold the them to their word. And a good person doesn't have no breaches. A good person says, you're right, that is off. Thank you. I'm going to correct that. And then they do. That's how you start really compatibility testing. The first six months. Then I have a whole year protocol, a marriage protocol, everything but. But that's what you do right there as you begin three date testing by being really honest, completely with each other.
- [51:12]
A
What if it's like orange flags?
- [51:15]
B
Ask about them.
- [51:16]
A
Okay, then that's maybe everything. Just. That's date five. That's date six. There's enough green to keep you in the dating. Yeah, but there's like, some things. You're not sure what this is. You're getting to know them.
- [51:26]
B
You ask and see what they say and make them resolve it. It's not your job.
- [51:30]
A
It sounds like the way that you see dating is a constant judging process.
- [51:36]
B
Discernment.
- [51:37]
A
Discernment.
- [51:37]
B
Judging is you're a bad person and you deserve to be punished for it. Discernment is maybe you're the right fit for me for this business I'm building, and maybe you're not. Let's talk about that. Maybe I'm the right fit for you, and maybe I'm not. Let's ask questions. You know, the secret to a good marriage is to be very endlessly curious about each other. Because otherwise you start making assumptions about each other, and then we do bad things. If we can be curious about each other and ask questions, we clarify. One thing I teach women in particular is if you've been in a marriage where you're always guessing and wondering and afraid, best thing you can do is sit down, write down all of your questions on a list, set your husband down, have a conversation, feed him feet, bring him a beer, feed him. And then interview him podcast style and ask him every question you have so you finally get full clarity on everything you've ever wondered. When I have my female clients do this, it is such overwhelming relief for them. All of a sudden, they feel safer than they've ever felt. Not just because she got answers, but because he was willing to give them.
- [52:29]
A
Wow.
- [52:29]
B
That's a protocol that must be done in every relationship.
- [52:32]
A
But even during that time, Let him talk. Right?
- [52:33]
B
She let him talk. She actually wanted to learn, and he was willing to share. That's something you could do during dating.
- [52:39]
A
We had Alison Armstrong on the show, and she was saying the power of literally, like, you're Describing asking questions, deep questions.
- [52:46]
B
Yes.
- [52:47]
A
And shutting up as a woman because we want to connect and share and you know, maybe ask another one and we can still ask further, further questions. But let that. Because men also tend to, I've noticed, especially the great ones like my wonderful husband, they're very thoughtful, they're methodical and they're not necessarily wearing all of their thoughts on their sleeves or you know, just letting them no filter come out. So you need to give them time and space and pay attention to let them say their full piece. Otherwise you can whiz, white whiz right past the revelation or the wisdom or the connection because you're. And this is also personality or temperament styles too. So it could be the woman is like this and the man's different. But that's where just listening, the skill of listening is so key.
- [53:28]
B
If there's one thing I could tell women right now that I wish they understood about men, it's how accommodating and gentle men are toward women every day in ways that women have no clue about. And he is over gentle and over accommodating and sacrificing himself and shutting up just because you opened your mouth for a moment, he will stop everything he was going to say. So if you make it look like he needs to accommodate you, if you make it look like you're sad or you're upset or you're nervous or you want to talk, he will shut down everything he's doing and feeling to try to help you. That's what good men try to do. And I know our society claims the opposite about men. We see this desire to protect and help is so deep that when we have co ed military units, the research now is showing that co ed military units don't do well because women have a higher rate of getting injured. And once they do, men then have a higher rate of getting injured because they are all desperately trying to rescue her in ways they don't do for other men. So co ed units are leading to increased injuries for women and men both. But this is true on the day to day at most men.
- [54:40]
A
I'm not, I'm not a fan of women in, in combat, I hear you.
- [54:43]
B
Typically, I hear you. And, and I wish what women understood on dates when men aren't talking and they're not sharing, it's because he doesn't want to scare you. He doesn't want to drive you away. You're talking so he's trying to give you space to do it. He's actually trying to make you happy? He's trying to figure out what you want so that you'll see that he's a loving husband who wants to be with you. Most men are just frozen solid because they have no idea what you want. So if you can tell them what you want and then step back and breathe and let them do what they're going to do, direct them just a little more and then let him go, all of a sudden he will stop walking around as if you're made of glass and he'll start working with you. That three minute talk I gave earlier about the husband coming home and saying, remember what I said at the beginning? I care about you and I love you and I want you to be okay. But I can't come straight home and start solving you because that means I can never turn off. So I need some time to breathe. I need scheduled structure. I need you to give me red flags or green flags, tell me if there's a problem, let's see, solve it, and then I need to be off because I can't. If you're not okay, I can't be okay. That's what most men are doing is they're solving problems for their wife endlessly at home or trying to. And he can never turn off and rest with you. And then she's upset because she doesn't get his presence. That's the problem.
- [56:03]
A
The core goal is win, win.
- [56:05]
B
The core goal is win, win. Absolutely. It's not so that women shut up. That's not the goal. I love that.
- [56:09]
A
It's not to have the woman just endlessly sacrifice when he comes home and you're just let do whatever he needs because he needs to decompress. It's for the sake of both of you and the relationship which has to have the win, win in it.
- [56:19]
B
Correct. They need structured time where she brings problems to him. When I check out from my work at the end of the day and I'm helping people with relationships all day long, saving marriages or whatever it may be, and I come out, the first thing my wife doesn't do is say, adam, I need to talk to you about all my feelings for the day. That would be death. I can't do that. She says, how are you doing? And I say, great. Are there any immediate red flags? She says, no, we're good right now. And I say, okay. Can I take 15, 20 minutes to breathe? Absolutely. We cool down, we eat as a family, we relax. Later that night, I sit down with her in structured time and say, okay, how are you doing? What do you need from me? How are you doing today? What was your day like? And I listen and I talk and she unloads and then that also ends. And then we have fun time where we relax and immerse. She's got what she's needed. Now we can actually rest as a couple. It's very structured for us. We've had to carve up that so that my brain isn't constantly trying to solve her problems and her brain isn't trying to just shove everything down and martyr herself without feeling loved. We have to do both. Men and women need to win together. We can't lose and we can't make ourself lose. Then everybody loses.
- [57:23]
A
I think the operating principle of the win win there, I think a lot of people don't have a framework for win win.
- [57:30]
B
Right.
- [57:30]
A
That's secure attachment. They didn't grow up with win win.
- [57:33]
B
No, that's secure attachment. I have a retreat coming up and at that retreat, when I what I'm going to be teaching my people is this. Your relationship is supposed to be a third party entity that exists between you. I think I talked about this briefly last time I was here on this podcast. But your marriage is a business. But that means that as you both give to each other, it feeds you and cares for you as well. So if you're martyring yourself, it's actually starving and killing the relationship too. So everyone begins to lose. Relationships are not meant to be the feelings we share between each other. So you have to panic when the feelings are not good. It's this thing we're crafting. It should feed you. Does that make sense so far?
- [58:07]
A
It does. I was going to ask, and this is a good moment for it, this marriage is a business. And you know, this third entity of the marriage, the relationship, it's not just feelings. Feelings are in part of the parcel, but it's about the win win in the holistic sense for the two people and for what they're building together and serving their kids, their family and God and everything else. But in the Christian view, marriage is a sacrament. It's at least a covenant, depending on your persuasion of Christianity. I believe it's a sacrament which is an actual sign of God's love living manifest here in the life of the Trinity. He made it. But there's a lot of language about the man laying down his life for the wife and willing to die to himself. The woman submitting to her husband, this idea of sacrifice involved in a marriage. And I've heard, you know, good priests say when you walk up to the altar to get married, it's like you're physically about to get onto this cross and. And, like, because marriage is a sacrament, it's supposed to kind of like, be like Jesus's death, and you're getting nails slammed into your hands by each other. And that's what he's not about making you happy. It's about making you holy. And it's like you're going to be crucified basically in marriage. So when it's tough, that's it. Stick it out. That's what Christians do.
- [59:15]
B
Yeah, I have a lot of clients come in, and they are miserable because they follow that doctrine, and they're both wretchedly unhappy. They hate themselves and they hate each other, and they can't make it work. That's not good theology.
- [59:26]
A
Unfortunately, Martyr marriage is not good theology.
- [59:29]
B
No, it cannot be. There's certainly situations where you may have to sacrifice in a way that's painful or unhappy for you. There's times, right, your husband becomes crippled and can't move below the neck. And now it's a martyrdom situation where you choose to care for him. Those are times. But remember that this episode is brought to you by.
- [59:49]
A
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- [60:20]
B
Remember, the two become one. If you are starving and destroying yourself, you are starving and destroying half of your spouse.
- [60:29]
A
Wow.
- [60:30]
B
Jesus doesn't just grind himself into the dirt. For all three years of his ministry. It culminates in a cross and then a resurrection. And then he shows up with his friends. Then he says, what does he say? Give me something to eat. Right? And he's hanging out with his bros and his friends and. And Mary Magdalene and everybody there. He's hanging out with them. And then he flies up into heaven. He's like, hey, I'm going on ahead. I got things to do. It's gonna be cool. He doesn't say, be wretchedly unhappy forever and hate your life. And the more miserable you are, the more you love me, and the more angry you are and sad, the happier I am. That's not what he says. Be joyful, rejoice, be gracious. Love each other. Right? If I'm in a marriage, I don't want my wife broke and miserable. And devastated day after day after day, number one. Because then she can't give to our children. What's that doing to our children and our grandchildren? What's that doing to my spirit? And her spirit, she shouldn't want that of me either. This, this myth that we have to endlessly martyr ourselves is wrong. If we are unevenly yoked, yes, that's a problem. But we're also taught not to do that, right? Christians together cannot enjoy the suffering of another. We cannot. That's forbidden to us. We actually have to make sure they're not suffering. Die to self is a command to give away our extra ego. But God does not want us to collapse our identity into him and be mush at his feet without a thought or a conscious will. That would be slavery. He calls on us to have love. He gives us free will so that we can choose to give it back to him. But then he doesn't take it away and make us mindless automatons. That's also not the process. I cannot live and rest knowing that my wife is miserable. She cannot live and rest knowing if I'm miserable. We have to care for each other. And again it must be win win, because otherwise we're doing it wrong. Marriage is joyful.
- [62:36]
A
That's so powerful the, you know, reminding people you are one in a marriage. So if you are on the cross getting crucified, they are too.
- [62:44]
B
Yes.
- [62:44]
A
Even if you're doing it for them, it ultimately is going to be that to them as well. And so in that's why to love them, you do have to care for your own soul, your own body as a, as an expression of love for them and your oneness and for your kids and everything else. And as importantly as you would care for your own body and you want them to care for theirs and you help each other, you care for the relationship.
- [63:08]
B
Let's put this another way. The only time martyrdom is appropriate is when God directly commands you to be a martyr. If you are martyring yourself because you think it makes you good, that is self righteous martyrdom, which is a sin. If you are martyring yourself because you are in a broken system and don't know what else to do, but there's options available to you. You're not sinning, but you are still. You're ignorant. And that's actually the work of the devil at that point.
- [63:36]
A
That's most people today.
- [63:37]
B
Adam, most marriages are run by the devil and not by God. Christian marriages are run by the devil and not by God because they think they have to be miserable to stay married. They think that we have to lose. They think marriage is miserable and unhappy. The devil is just as active as God is. We have to remember that. We like to forget that we like to not talk about it. But the devil is very, very active.
- [64:02]
A
I think that's such an important distinction. Because if your spouse objectively, you know, is paralyzed below the waist or whatever, some horrible accident, you care for them, there's a form of martyrdom there. Yes, it's a significant thing to go out of your way and care for this one and, you know, be everything that they need you to be. Or if, God forbid, you're in a marriage and the spouse is just hell bent on destruction. And I think this is another area I just want to get into for a moment because it's also, I think, confusing for Christians especially. And I think it's important if you're dating and preparing to know what you're getting into, because you see signs in dating as well. In a situation where you go into the marriage, it seems to be valid. So you maybe you knew there was a porn addiction at some point, or you knew there was sexual compulsions at some point, or you knew they had attachment issues, you knew they had it prone to this addiction, or they had issues. You have issues, whatever. You both know your issues. You're working on them to some degree. You get married, it blows up. Yeah, they act out. Yes, there's infidelity, yes, there's chronic deception. Yes, there's some other problem. There's abusive behavior. Maybe they're not like banging you over the head, but they're certainly highly emotionally neglectful or abusive. You feel it is abusive to you? That's always kind of a question. Is it abuse? Is it not that a martyrdom situation where you're like, well, I'm going to stay in the marriage and try to make it work, or I'm going to remove myself from the situation, but not remarry, because I think marriage is for life. But I'm not going to at least live with the guy. What do you recommend? We could do a whole podcast on that, but I want to just get your capsule for that.
- [65:37]
B
There are two authority sources I go back to. One is attachment science. The bonding hormones, the behavioral patterns, the brain pathways, all of those pieces. Number one is science. The way that God has structured our world and how we measure how he has structured it. And I go back to our Lord Jesus Christ and his model and how he conducted himself. Both of those tell me this sacrifice is doing for somebody what they cannot do for themselves. Christ sacrificed himself for people that could not do for themselves. He gave his life on the cross to do something no one else could do. When someone could do, he ordered them to do it and gave them no quarter. Go and sin no more. He didn't say, cool, I got you. Just keep going. If we sacrifice ourself for somebody else's comfort with something they should be doing, we are complicit in their sin.
- [66:36]
A
Wow, that's good.
- [66:38]
B
But the worst. Here's a problem. The worst lie we tell to married women who are trying to do right is that if you are kinder to your husband, he will change. You have to be stern with your husband. I don't say mean. Women have two modes. Kind and mean. Stern, you are his executive partner and his co founder. You are a feminine leader. You are his right hand side. You are his rib and closest to his heart, you are there to call him fat when he is fat and. And mean when he is mean. That is your job because you have to guard him. You are his guardian. You're the guardian of his soul and his spirit. And no one on this planet knows him like you do. And if you are too kind to him, he will mistakenly believe he's doing everything right. If you're mean to him, he will assume that you just don't like him. If you are stern and you have consequences, he must listen to you. It is not a woman's job to be nice to her husband. And I say that knowing my wife is listening to this podcast. She's very kind, but it's not her job to be nice to me. I would hate that.
- [67:45]
A
Explain what that looks like. And I know we're getting into the 12 consequences here, which is perfect.
- [67:50]
B
Yeah.
- [67:50]
A
But walk me through this. So I just kind of laid out an image of all the worst things that could happen. I think the tools you're about to provide us here can be used in any scenario, quite frankly.
- [68:01]
B
Absolutely.
- [68:02]
A
Um, and this is very important intel for those who are preparing for marriage. So what is. How does a woman handle sternness while still being the safe, soft landing place in a situation where it is a red, red alert situation? So now the man. And. And there's different degrees. Right. There's. There's a severe degree of, like, abuse or there's betrayal, and then there's the kind of more softer space of like, he's just not living up to potential. He's stuck in a bad routine. He's in a rut.
- [68:33]
B
Yeah. So there has to be a degree of safety for women to perform their job. Women cannot do their job without safety of some kind. If the man is not providing safety, but not removing safety, then you need to build safety in yourself and with your family and community. And then use that so you can push on him. Or you need to make him build safety. That's actually one of the first things he should be doing if he is removing safety through her. Hurt, harm, abuse, things like this. You need to find safety and structure. Maybe by getting away from him. I'm not an advocate for divorce, but for separation sometimes as a consequence, for showing him that your love, your love is unconditional, but your time, attention and proximity are not. And that he needs to be conducting himself appropriately between him and God.
- [69:17]
A
What's the threshold for removal from the home? Not divorce.
- [69:20]
B
The last one. That is number 12 out of 12.
- [69:22]
A
Okay, so we're gonna get through the consequence steps for that.
- [69:25]
B
We'll probably go through a couple of
- [69:26]
A
them, but okay, there's too.
- [69:27]
B
There's. There's a lot. There's a lot of nuance, but ultimately it's this, Ultimately it's this. Your time, your attention, your affection and your warmth, those are not love. Your love for your husband is unconditional regard for his well being and doing what's truly right for him. Which means not sacrificing yourself in a way that keeps him in his sin. If you just nice him into hell, he will not thank you. What you need to do is start telling him at every opportunity. Not nagging and not angry, but I know what you're doing and it's very inappropriate. It. I'm really sorry. You made this choice today. I have to be honest with you. I am losing respect for you.
- [70:04]
A
This is more in terms of betrayal. Like sexual betrayal.
- [70:07]
B
We're talking he's looking at porn. Yeah, he's looking at porn. Sweetheart, I have to be honest with you. What you're doing is making me lose respect for you as a man. And I say that because I have a lot of respect for you. And this is going to hurt both of us if you keep choosing this. I can't stop you, but I don't think I can see you the same. And then you walk away. That's not a conversation, it's a statement. And you do this every day, if necessary. And you keep it up. You don't sweep it under the rug. You don't be nice. You don't try to be encouraging and friendly. You don't try to come at all no, polite.
- [70:43]
A
You're polite.
- [70:44]
B
Polite. But what does the Bible say about people who are in their sin? Encourage them. Keep letting them do it. Cheer them on, pretend it's not happening. What did St. Paul say? He told us to judge each other. He actually said, judge each other. He said, don't judge people outside. He commanded us judge each other inside the church. It's harsh words, but we have to.
- [71:10]
A
Now, quick question. It's. I'm sure somebody's thinking this question, especially if they're familiar with someone in this situation or they themselves have been in it. If you're married, do you withhold sex as the woman? If the man is actively involved in
- [71:27]
B
an affair or porn, Sex is the ultimate culmination of intimacy. So I am not a fan. And women cannot and must not weaponize sex. It's not a reward to be given, but it is the gauge of trust and intimacy. So she needs to be honest with herself. If she doesn't feel safe enough to connect with him, if she doesn't respect him, then she needs to be blunt with him about that.
- [71:56]
A
I think a lot of men would say, well, you're weaponizing it now because you're not willing to be intimate with me.
- [72:01]
B
Here's a key difference. If she's telling him, I have almost no desire for you whatsoever, I might be willing to perform the mechanical act, But I'm going to be very clear with you. I'm sitting there the whole time just wishing it was over. And I don't want it. And I don't want you. You. And my respect for you is gone. I have no desire whatsoever, so I can do this. And many wives are willing to. It's not, I hate it, and I'm miserable and I'm being violated. I'm willing to do it, but I have no desire, no interest, and no respect. Most men, that ruins their desire really fast. Most good men will say, then I don't want it, because what you're doing is you're giving him pressure and urgency and consequences and pain so that he's actually facing the consequences of what he's doing. You're not punishing him. I'm not saying punish your husband. I'm saying be brutally honest with your husband so he sees the reflection of himself. He needs to know that he is killing your desire and your respect. Good men, most men respond to that more than most women will ever understand. But if you just pretend and keep doing it and pretend you like him and pretend it's fun, he thinks it's fine, and Again, you're complicit in his
- [73:05]
A
sin, so he might spiral. I mean, I'm just imagining scenarios here where now she doesn't respect me. She doesn't, you know, she doesn't want to be with me where I'm not being, you know, I don't experience intimacy in our relationship. So it might have this effect of making him spiral even more down this path of betrayal.
- [73:26]
B
What is the alternative there?
- [73:28]
A
I mean, the only alternative is to basically lie, which is not an option, right?
- [73:33]
B
Yeah, one of the commandments. That'd be a mortal sin.
- [73:35]
A
I mean, lie with your attitude or your body in terms of saying this is fine when it's not fine, bearing false witness. Yeah, interesting.
- [73:41]
B
It's still. It still is. It is hard to be a wife. I'm going to be blunt. It's hard to be a wife. It's hard to be a husband. That's the sacrifice part. The sacrifice part isn't I'm just going to be miserable and unhappy forever. The sacrifice part is I'm going to have to say things that will hurt you so that I don't harm you, so that you don't harm yourself. It's the difference between hurt and harm. It is hard to be a wife. It is a sacrifice. You set your ego and your comfort aside to tell your husband when he is violating God's commandments. It's hard to be a husband to have to say that to your wife when she's doing wrong and inappropriate things. That is the sacrifice we're called to make, is to be brutally honest and guard their spirit and their heart. That is the sacrifice. Not being wretchedly miserable every day and being silent about it. Silence is actually not biblical.
- [74:26]
A
Since we started this topic, I want to just at least put a cap on it in terms of this part about these more intense, maybe even abusive or betrayal situations. So you already mentioned, like, if there's serious harm, especially physical danger, things like that, removal, get out, you know, going to another secure location, family, household, friends, whatever, figuring that out. But not divorce. You still want to make it work, but it might take a. You might be in a year's project now with this person.
- [74:53]
B
Honestly, at that point, talk to your priest, talk to your bishop, talk to people. Remember that marriage is not two people. A marriage is an absolute covenant that's formed under God, but there's a whole ecosystem around it. I'm never an advocate for staying in abuse, not ever. Especially if there's kids involved. Never. But I also know that we have to stick to the covenant and the commandments that we have. So get out. Be smart. Do not be silent. Build a community. The worst thing women can do is be isolated and alone, without community, family, friends, people they love and trust. But then you make sure there are consequences for that man again and again as you can. I'm not saying confront him in his face and then he murders you. That's not what I'm telling anybody out there. I know. We'll get those in the comments, I'm sure, but no, this is, be safe, do your job. But a good man must make it easier for his wife to do her job. My job as a husband is not to make it hard for my wife to give me the brutal truth. My job is to make it easy for her because I accept it, I reward it, I encourage it, I respond to it, and I become a better man. That is my job. And if I don't, it's not a problem between me and my wife. It's a problem between me and God. And that's who she can appeal to. And she can keep pointing me back that way and say, what does this say about your relationship with God? If my wife. If I'm ever stuck, my wife says, how does this play out with you and God, Adam?
- [76:15]
A
It's a good question.
- [76:18]
B
Now it's not my wife nagging me anymore. Now it's God himself pointing at me and telling me that I need to really take a look in the mirror. And it's a husband's job to be receptive as his wife in that way. It's not my wife's job to make me receptive to her. It's her job to do her job. It's not her job to fix me or rescue me.
- [76:37]
A
So. And to put a cap on that with the divorce separation question, the Catholic Church does permit divorce in the sense of legal divorce.
- [76:46]
B
Sure.
- [76:47]
A
If there is serious reason.
- [76:49]
B
Sure.
- [76:50]
A
You know, like abuse, like we're describing
- [76:51]
B
some very extreme circumstances.
- [76:53]
A
But then remarriage would not be permitted.
- [76:54]
B
Correct.
- [76:55]
A
Unless there is an annulment, which would say, this is rendering the marriage null and void because it never really existed because often there was a lack of full choice for it. You didn't. You weren't able to fully commit to it because you had incomplete or false information. They went into the marriage without full freedom or full knowledge. You know, and there are a lot of annulments today. Now, some people say, oh, that's because the Catholic Church is handing out annulments like divorces, and they're just abusing the system. And I actually think. No, I just think there's a lot of marriages today that aren't real marriages
- [77:25]
B
that are not real marriages. It's people playing house and just having feelings. Yes, correct. And I'll never advocate for divorce. Divorce. But I'll leave that up to the person and their priest to have that discussion if it's right for you. Like you said, grave matters are a whole other thing. And I'm not here to tell you what's a grave matter religiously and what's not. I'm here to give you the science.
- [77:42]
A
Right. And talk to your priest or talk to your. Certainly if you're not a Catholic.
- [77:45]
B
I am also part of an ecosystem. I'm not a priest myself or a bishop in that regard. I'm here to make sure that people have all the information they need. I think that religion and science are unified. Really. We are just talking about two different aspects of the same thing. We need both.
- [78:01]
A
And I think there's more we could talk about. But I'm curious if there's consequences men can provide because we're kind of focusing on poor behavior from men. Yes, there's plenty of poor behavior from men.
- [78:13]
B
Oh my gosh. I get that all the time as well. Yeah, absolutely. My coaching clients all the time tell me.
- [78:17]
A
And the thing that most comes to mind with me as kind of the chronic issue for the modern woman is. And maybe you see it differently in coaching. I'm curious, what you say to this is kind of just narcissism. Women who are just very self absorbed and immature and so they're not able to be that actual best friend and co founder because they're so immature.
- [78:42]
B
Lack of humility, lack of charity, lack of trust, lack of respect. I see a lot of that is.
- [78:49]
A
Would you say that's the worst? Like if. If men's biggest issue is being able to like open up and connect and then maybe also like porn addiction, would you kind of say those are maybe two of the biggest issues for men?
- [78:58]
B
I think that the art of being a wife is something that has been largely lost for modern women in the West.
- [79:04]
A
Yes.
- [79:05]
B
I think that being a wife is an enormously unique vocation among everything else. It is incredible and very, very detailed in a skill set. And I think most modern women don't have the safety they need to be able to do it. They aren't raised with fathers that provide safety. They go out into the world hoping a stranger will make them feel safe. They don't even know how to be safe. I Think men try to provide safety, and then women don't receive it very well. Then they get angry and bitter at him for not making her feel safe because her attachment issues are out of control and she'll never feel relaxed enough. And then she's mad at him that she feels anxious. I think that a lot of women want to turn their husband into their therapist and their best friend and their father and replace everything else in their life with one man. And then they get angry at him for going to work because he's not right there to take care of her feelings. I think that women don't know how to appreciate a man anymore, and I think all of that is wrapped up in the problem.
- [79:57]
A
I agree. And I think this is an area, even myself as a wife, like, how do I be a good wife? You know, my mother, I saw her heroically doing many things, so I can model certain things for my mother. But there's a lot of pieces still that I, you know, I've had to learn, or I'm learning actively. Right. And. But again, I think a lot of the advice out there about, like, how to be with a man, it's very superficial. And it's basically how to appease a man or how to please a man as opposed to how to build with a man.
- [80:27]
B
How to give him dopamine and not give him cortisol.
- [80:29]
A
Yes.
- [80:29]
B
Those are the two things I hear a lot.
- [80:31]
A
Yes, exactly. I remember even as a girl, my mother was on her own kick of, like, how do I be a good wife to my father, my. Her husband? And she read this book, and I read it as a teenage girl called Fascinating Womanhood. And it's all about dopamine hits and lowering the cortisol of the man. Like, everything from, like, taking off his shoes when he walks in the door and all of this, like. But not nothing in there. And about being virtuous and pretty, you know, but nothing in there was about building with your man.
- [80:57]
B
Sure.
- [80:58]
A
And creating an empire.
- [80:59]
B
Right.
- [81:00]
A
And creating new souls, you know, like children that you now have to raise.
- [81:03]
B
Correct.
- [81:04]
A
To be saints. Right. Like, that wasn't it. It was very. In that sense, superficial. So I guess for women and this art of being a wife and the common mistakes that women may make. What would you say are the common mistakes that women make?
- [81:23]
B
You know, the biggest one in wifedom. The very biggest one. And I. And I have. I face this challenge every time I work with a couple. I tell women, you want to hear I love you, he needs to hear, I respect you. Those are Two different things. Men don't biochemically respond the same to I love you as they do to I respect you. When a man says I love you to his wife, she gets a cascade of oxytocin, that bonding hormone that says, I belong. I'm accepted, I'm loved, I'm cared for. She flips into a sympathetic nervous system state and starts. Starts flooding with serotonin. Fulfillment, contentment. I belong here. And it's good. Some dopamine? Absolutely. She floods with gaba, which suppresses her cortisol. So a huge stress relief all at once. It's this amazing cascade that goes through her, and she assumes that her husband feels the same when she says, I love you. But men are aware that women can love a yappy little purse dog that they have no respect for. Men are aware that women love children. Men are aware that women love stupid creatures. Men are aware that women can love something they still pity. That is not the same for a man. Remember that he is designed to fight every day to keep you alive, to protect you, to serve you, to help grow with you. His job is to stand guard between you and every danger on the planet. Love like that is not what his system's designed to value. We know that when a woman walks up to her husband and puts her hands on his shoulder, right here on his chest, and looks up at him and says, I respect you, we know that his system floods with testosterone, a surge of it. And he has an overwhelming protective instinct
- [83:02]
A
that grows through him to physically say
- [83:03]
B
those words, Physically, to hear, yes.
- [83:05]
A
So a woman should say. You think a woman should say that to her husband every day?
- [83:08]
B
I think it is mandatory that she needs to be saying it. And when I tell women this, I get the same reaction. Do I have to say that word? Do I have to? I mean, I show it.
- [83:22]
A
Do you think that's the feminism? Cancer? What is that? Why it. Why is that? What's so bad with respecting your husband?
- [83:29]
B
Like, it puts her into a position of subservience in her eyes, that he now has power over her, that he's.
- [83:37]
A
That he's somehow better than she is.
- [83:38]
B
She looks up to him and that makes him better now. It makes her vulnerable. And if he turns on her and uses that against her, she's helpless. She's been conditioned from four generations of women where men have died, checked out, been murdered, died in war, broke, mentally abandoned, did all these things. And all these women said, men will ruin you in one way or another. So stick to your career, Protect yourself. Don't Let him get a leg up on you. Don't stay at home, have your own money, keep a secret bank account. All these messages from generations. Yes, the feminism is there too, but honestly, it's just raw survival and trauma with feminism on top. Women are conditioned to be afraid of trusting a man anymore.
- [84:24]
A
To your point, of what you're saying, because of all of that trauma or betrayal or woundedness or brokenness. They're legit things.
- [84:32]
B
Yes.
- [84:33]
A
So it's not like she's inventing that.
- [84:34]
B
She's not. She's not wrong for how she's feeling. But I will say this. If you can't say I respect you to a man, then you can't love him correctly the way a man needs. And if you can't say I respect you to a man and that's off the table, you will only date men you don't respect. This is why women put up with non respectful men. Men they cannot respect at all because they say, well, I'm never going to respect anyone, so why bother? This is what makes women settle for men that they cannot respect because they can't say I respect you to a good man.
- [85:06]
A
So the distinction you're making is you need to be able to say, and obviously be, you know, say you respect and be respectful to a good man.
- [85:16]
B
Yes.
- [85:16]
A
Now, if he's not a good man, this is, this is the immediate question
- [85:19]
B
I get from women. What if he's not? That's the immediate question that I get from women.
- [85:23]
A
What if he's not?
- [85:24]
B
Immediately every woman like, even, even you, Even a godly woman like you. What if he's not Adam?
- [85:28]
A
But what if he's not? My goal in the interview is to channel what other women are saying.
- [85:32]
B
No. 100%. I love it. I love that we're going there. That's the immediate female brain, though. What if he's not? What if he's a jerk? 100%. Back to what we said a moment ago. You need to call him on that. What did I say when? The first thing I said when he's not. When he's using pornography. What did I say? I'm losing respect for you, sweetheart. Women don't bat an eye at saying I'm losing respect for you. But to do that.
- [86:00]
A
And did you start by respecting him? I mean, this is the complaint of the guy who might be falling into sexual sin if I was interviewing that guy right now.
- [86:08]
B
Correct.
- [86:08]
A
He'd probably be like, well, I wasn't getting what I needed in the marriage.
- [86:11]
B
Correct.
- [86:11]
A
They'll blame the Wife or the relationship.
- [86:15]
B
If he's not getting what he needs in the marriage, often it's his own fault for not knowing how to get it right. But it's not his fault because he's usually avoidant. But it's his fault for not correcting that. He needs to go into the trust.
- [86:25]
A
He's saying it's within his power to solve.
- [86:27]
B
Correct.
- [86:28]
A
So it's not like he's a helpless person.
- [86:29]
B
Victim, is what you're saying correct.
- [86:30]
A
But for the woman's perspective, there's also something that's within her power to solve.
- [86:35]
B
Absolutely. Your respect is the consequence in the relationship and your respect is what leads to sex. When you ask me, should she hold back on sex, I think that sex should be directly correlated to the respect she has for that man. If she doesn't respect him, she should not have sex with him. And she should tell him, I cannot have sex with you because I don't respect you. And that needs to be a healthy, normal consequence. She's not withholding sex. She is responding correctly to a lack of respectability in him. And that should drive him through urgency and pain, frankly, to become a respectable man. Because the natural consequence is, if I don't respect you, we don't have sex. If I do respect you, we have tons of sex all the time, everywhere, constantly. Those are the two realities. So give your man those two realities. It should be tied to the respect you feel to toward him. And that respect is based on the love and real love he gives you and the safety he creates for you. Those two factors. Does he create safety and give you authentic love? As a wonderful third, I would say, is he close and connected with God? But he can't do those two things unless he really is, to be honest with you. And all of this loops back to secure attachment. I know people are listening and saying, adam, this sounds so hard. Yeah, insecurely attached relationships don't allow this. You have to build secure attachment to do this.
- [87:55]
A
So in dating, I think the prescription's pretty clear. You, you know, not just a three date tool that you discussed, but also, you know, what you're looking for in a man is a man that you can freely say, I respect you, but if you have trouble, he's a objectively good guy and you're having trouble saying I freely respect, you know, I respect you. What is that in the woman that she needs to work through? What kind of attachment disorder is she wrestling with that she just kind of sees good man and can't appreciate good man?
- [88:25]
B
This is A challenging question because some people will say it comes back to pride in her that she's being prideful and refusing. And I don't think that's actually the case. I don't think it's women being overly prideful and stubborn and mean and such. I don't think women are really that way. I think women are innately very practical and I think that they are afraid of being hurt. They need safety, but you have to be able to receive safety. Sometimes it's doing her nervous system work so she can calm down enough to receive safety. Safety. Quite often it's not knowing the questions she needs to ask to understand if she respects him or not.
- [88:54]
A
To feel full trust, to feel the
- [88:55]
B
full trust in him to be able to actually receive that.
- [88:58]
A
Like she can kind of sense, oh, he seems good, he seems non threatening, but like, I don't fully know how to internally give myself confidence because I'm not even sure the framework I should be using or the questions I should be asking.
- [89:09]
B
That's it. She doesn't know the job she's applying for to be chief operations officer. She doesn't know how to filter and correctly interview him to be a chief opera executive officer. She doesn't know how to build a company together. She's trying frantically to give a stranger good feelings so he'll adopt her and she won't be alone and afraid in this world anymore. And that she's hoping that he will give her some scraps of safety so that she can barely cling to them for the rest of her life. Of course, in those circumstances, she doesn't want to give that man power or control. But that's not marriage. That's not romance, that's not intimacy. That's not what man and woman is supposed to be. She needs to be asking questions about how would I learn if I respect this man or not. And if I don't, can I say, you know, I think you're a good guy. I would respect you a lot more if you were doing this in your life. Do you have plans to do that and are you already doing it? I would have a hard time feeling safe with you if you weren't doing this. So are you planning to do that shortly? That's how you start filtering men and dating, saying that on the third date. You know, I think you're fantastic. But this one thing, I gotta tell you, this is really making me uncomfortable. What are you doing there? How married to that are you? And I'm gonna be if you tell me you're Gonna do it, be fixing it. I'm not dating and marrying for potential. So you better really have a plan. You better get things together quickly. I'll watch. I'm willing to date you and see what you do. But I would need you to fix this.
- [90:30]
A
What's an example of something that on a third date you would notice that that needed to be asked.
- [90:34]
B
Pornography.
- [90:35]
A
Yes. So you should ask about pornography by the third date.
- [90:38]
B
Most men that I'm dating have porn issues. And I'll be honest with you, I'm tired of it. It's wrecked my last couple of relationships and I don't ever want to put up with it again. I'm aware that men are visually stimulated and that there's some draw there. So I'm not going to be angry at you if you have temptation toward pornography. But what are you doing to make sure it's not going to destroy our family? How often do you use it? And really honest, I need to know. Because if you break, break their family up because of this, I won't. Thank you. I need to know right now what the honest truth is. So what are you doing to resist pornography? Every man must have some sort of system to resist it. What are you doing? And if you don't have one, are you building one or are you going to build one tonight and get back to me with that information? Because I can't date a man who
- [91:18]
A
doesn't have a system that's strong. I mean, I remember there was a gentleman, he was an advisor of mine and Live Action, he was the head of one of the divisions of the FBI at one point. Catholic gentleman, seven daughters. And he would give these talks. He said the number one thing that he would find with, you know, career criminals was there's two things. Filth and porn, Filth and porn, filth and porn. All different levels of crime. But then he also said that he would told his daughters the first date, you should ask about porn.
- [91:48]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And not. It doesn't even have to be. Are you using it? It's. What is your system to resist the temptation? A man, every man on the planet needs to have a system to resist it. It's not. I just won't. What is your system? I am close friends with two priests, actually three priests. I have confession constantly if I ever breach anything. So that makes it easier for me not to sin because I don't want to have to go see my friend who's a priest and look at him and say, here's what I did. Because every time I Get close to temptation of that or any other sin. I remember his face looking at me like this. And it's very easy not to sin because now you have open accountability. Creating accountability and welcoming it as a man. Creating accountability with other men, with other buddies. If I started using pornography or drugs or cheating on my wife, my male friends would find out very quickly. And then they would gather around to beat me with baseball bats because they love my wife and my children. They would punish and discipline me so my wife didn't even have to. And I've created that on purpose as a system. So it's hard for me to sin then. My sins are small and I'm ashamed of them and I go and correct them. So because I have accountability, my sins are this big. If a man doesn't his sins, they grow to the container you create for them. What create? What container are you creating for your sins? Every man must have a system. Don't bait a man who doesn't have a system.
- [93:08]
A
What is the equivalent of this? Is there an equivalent of a man, you know, asking about porn? Of a man on. By the third date and a woman's possible pitfalls and a question that a man should be asking or screening for within the first three dates?
- [93:24]
B
You're going to get me in trouble with these, aren't you?
- [93:27]
A
Gotta be asked. Now I'm putting myself in the man's shoes here.
- [93:30]
B
Women don't like to hear the sexual kind of approach. But are you reserving yourself sexually for people you respect?
- [93:40]
A
Meaning are you. Are you hooking up with guys or not?
- [93:44]
B
Are you hooking up with guys left, right and center? Did you hook up with three guys yesterday and you don't like any of them and they don't like you, but you're just hoping to find somebody. Are you reserving yourself sexually for people who respect you and that you respect completely?
- [93:56]
A
Can you just say marriage?
- [93:58]
B
I would say that, yes. Me as a faithful man, I would be looking for that. But I'd also want her to say no to me until marriage. And my wife and I had that conversation with, when we were dating that her job and my job was to say no to each other. No matter how much each one of us desired each other at the dating process, we had to say no to each other and preserve that. That was actually a measure of trust for us. I think that that has to be in place if you're going to be a faithful Catholic couple in this regard. But. But honestly, whoever she is, if she has a sexual history, many women today do are you reserving that for ultimate intimacy and ultimate respect if you're going to be a faithful Catholic woman, a faithful Catholic wife? Yes, that does mean marriage. Yes, that does mean doing a lot of extensive inner work and saying, why did I engage in these things? Why did I choose to give myself to people that don't love me? Why did I give myself to people that don't respect me? And that usually leads back to attachment. This is not for shame and misery and, oh, you're a bad person. It's, I didn't believe I had worth beyond my sexual value. So I used this to try to get people to adopt me like a pet at the pound so that he wouldn't leave me. And I never understood the intimacy and closeness of sex and that my sex to him is a gift that culminates in everything we share together. That's the equation. Does she understand the role of sex and intimacy? That it's the ultimate culmination of their oneness and can she give that to him? If she can't, then even that gift is tarnished. It means so much less to that man, and he knows that.
- [95:32]
A
Now, I've got to ask this because it's a question of some debate and it certainly has a lot of implications. If somebody is, let's say, a virgin and they want to marry a virgin, do you think that that's an appropriate goal, first of all? And second of all, can this be part of a conversation during dating? And then there's also this idea of a born again virgin where regardless of your history, you are now trying a new path, which I think is most people today.
- [96:02]
B
I hear you. I remember that the Bible is written largely about people who converted into Christianity rather than people who were raised in Christianity. I'm aware that pretty much all of the apostles were not Christians before and they all had those other lives. I'm aware that many of us are pagans in many ways. I have not always been a Christian and I certainly was not sexually pure. When I've met my wife, I will just say that myself. I'm just going to get that out of the road right now. Everybody asked me that eventually. So I was not.
- [96:29]
A
Meaning you were not in the life before meeting your wife.
- [96:32]
B
I was not a faithful, good Christian before meeting my wife. I became a Christian shortly before meeting her, really in good faith.
- [96:39]
A
So you're not saying you're actively doing bad sexual things because I met her?
- [96:42]
B
No.
- [96:43]
A
You're just saying you had a past, as most people do today, as many people do.
- [96:47]
B
Today, Right. We actually live in a post Christian world and we are ministering and evangelizing to pagans. And that doesn't mean they're bad people. It means they don't have Christian practices. They aren't following the covenant of God. I have no judgment for those people. I don't say they're good or evil or bad or whatever it may be. They are people that are following something they don't know. Wonder. Okay, that's where you're at, right? I shouldn't say wonderful, but that's where you're at. If you come to understand the science of human bonding through sexual practices, you come to understand that it does create bonds and a lot of things happen. And remembering that sex is for unity and procreation both equally. Right. We can't dismiss one and not the other. We know it's for both. So with that in mind, if you're asking me if one virgin has the right to then choose to marry another virgin, great, fantastic. Have that conversation. By all means. People can want whatever they want. People are allowed to want anything they want. If you have had sex with 800 people and you want to marry a virgin, you're allowed to want that. It's probably not realistic and probably most women who have kept themselves pure and for that, for marriage will probably not say, great. 800 sounds wonderful. Right? Is it a little predatory for a 40 year old man who's had sex with 800 people to find an 18 year old young virgin? It sounds a little predatory for most people. Is she an adult and can she make decisions? I hope so, if her parents have raised her correctly. But she should also have an ecosystem protecting her. All of that has to go into this conversation to frame this next thing I'm going to say, which is this. I think people need to be bluntly honest about what they want, but also explain why they want it. Yes, I think that if you're looking for somebody with a low sexual history, explain why to them and to yourself. What does it mean? What does it represent to you. I think there's a lot of research out there that says that if you are actively promiscuous as of this moment, you will have difficulty bonding correctly. But the research is fascinating. If you go six months to a year with low or no sexual interaction at all, those bonding practices begin to reset and your relationships going forward actually are healthier again.
- [98:54]
A
How hopeful. I mean, that's such a good thing for people to remember, correct?
- [98:58]
B
Now there's this stupid idea from the Internet that women have Oxytocin bonding with men through sex. So then it ruins their ability to bond ever again for the rest of their life. And the research is very clear. That's not actually accurate any more than it is for men. Oxytocin bonding doesn't work that way. That's not how oxytocin works. We have oxytocin in non sexual, non romantic relationships as well. That is not actually a thing. But again, if you are endlessly having sex with people right now, promiscuously, that does male or female damage your ability to have those bonding mechanisms. So are we allowed to want a virgin husband or wife? Absolutely. Look at the realism of it. Look at the conversations you're having. Do you live in New York City or do you live in the middle of a rural country where there may be more virgins there? Right. Look at those pieces. Look at yourself. Understand what it means, understand what you're asking and have clear, direct conversations. And then you're also welcome to reject other people's demands on you. If somebody says, I would only want to marry a virgin, okay, you're gonna look down on me because I have had sex with three long term boyfriends that didn't work out and then I converted to the faith, you probably won't like me. That's. Okay, fine, we're not a good match.
- [100:06]
A
Do you think that what some people who are very fixated on this potentially, where they're like, I need to be with a virgin, the why behind it, if it's such a big deal, it's like, why? Is it because you're afraid of betrayal? Is it because of a sense of like physical purity or fear? Is it because you're afraid of being with someone more experienced? Like. Like, would you recommend that person really exploring the why? I mean, it seems like an obviously good thing to want.
- [100:28]
B
Yeah. You know, I can speak to myself. My wife was a virgin when we met. We were both very young. She was a virgin when we met. I was not. She told me that. And it was attractive to me, but it wasn't the one and only defining feature. Like, I would never never not. But it was attractive, particularly because to me it represented that she understood the value of sex and she was able to discipline herself and not engage in it. And it was something I actually respected, that I had lacked. And I was aware that it was a lack in me. I was aware that I was actually. I was. I want to say lesser. I was, I want to say it that way, but I was aware that it was, it was A unique attribute in her that I had lacked in understanding and in discipline up until then. So I think it represents that. I think that many people are trying to game a system and they don't understand how human loyalty works. Many men today, so they think that if a woman has ever had sex with anyone, it means she's going to cheat on him. I also think that. I think that people don't understand how loyalty is built between humans at all. I don't think that women innately look for men who have had sex with a hundred other people either. I. I think that. I think we need to be honest about loyalty and what it means. That's realistically what I think. Nowhere in the Bible that I'm aware, you can please correct me, but nowhere does it say only Mary a virgin. I'm not aware of that anywhere in the Bible. People, please correct me if that's wrong. But remember that most Christians around the world have converted into the faith. Most Christians have a past. I'm more concerned about what your relationship is with God today, what your sexuality would be today in a marriage, what it means to you. Are you willing to engage in it joyfully? Are you able to engage in it as the culmination of intimacy? Is there loyalty outside of sex? That's really what I'm interested in.
- [102:17]
A
What would you say for younger generations like Gen Z is something about dating and relationships today that is more positive or easier than it was for past generations? Is there anything easier?
- [102:29]
B
Gen Z is in an interesting split because half of them are diving off the cliff into absolute emotion and stimulation. Life is bleak. Life is joyless and pointless. So you have to immerse, not enjoy, but in pleasure, which is two different things. They are giving in absolutely to despair and hedonism at the same time. And they think relationships are just something you wad up and throw away and pull the next one out. It's just endless consumerism of relationships. And humans, that's one side of Gen Z, on the other side of Gen Z are enormously practical. They are burned out on dopamine. They are trying to find the purpose behind everything else. They are flocking back to overly traditional church things, as traditional as possible. They are looking at what our ancestors did and then they're dissecting it and trying to understand why our ancestors did it. There's an old wisdom that's coming back because they have to. They are growing up in the rubble of a society that has collapsed that we just haven't recognized yet. They're in the ashes of A greater culture that has already passed and they're aware of it and they're trying to make sense of it. When I talk about marriage as a business, it resonates with that. Half of Gen Z millennials get angry at me and say no, it's feelings. Gen Z says, you're absolutely right. So they're the ones having the conversation around, does marriage even matter anymore? Half of them say no because it's just about feelings. And the other half says no because I already have the feelings. When I tell Gen Z that it's a business, they love it.
- [104:06]
A
So you think in a sense, Gen Z is prepared or is seeking out or building marriages that are in some ways built to last more than the millennial set of marriages.
- [104:16]
B
If we can show them what secure attachment means between two human beings. Building an actual human relationship where we talk, where we have safety and peace and connection, where we tell the truth, even when it's unpleasant. In fact, especially when it's unpleasant when we hold each other accountable, but not with anger, with firmness, but with love. When we can have an honest, secure relationship and have those three minute talks, when we can engage honestly and directly with each other as man and wife is supposed to, as we can can unify and then build forward for a purpose through our vocation, as we can take what Christ has shown us is a real relationship and model that with each other, then yes, we can build that forward. And I think half of Gen Z is going to get that. I think we're going to go into a very, very ugly culling period where the haves and the have nots are going to move forward and go in very different directions. And the haves are the people who will build real marriage.
- [105:14]
A
So if I'm a Gen Z person, or let's say I'm a millennial who missed the marriage train and I'm desperately hoping to marry, and I'm like, okay, this all sounds so good, Adam. I'm. I'm locked in. I want to be a co founder. I want to do it all. I like the three date method. That's good. I know the chastity thing's important. Get rid of the porn, like all of this, right? But what do I go into this with in terms of my vision for the business? Should I be developing certain skills? Should I kind of write out how I envision life? How do I know if it's a good one, vision or not? This framework is new to me.
- [105:53]
B
I always tell people that life only makes sense when you plan it in Reverse and then live it forward. Most people are trying to plan forward. They're trying to plan day by day by day and try to figure out where they want to go someday based on where they are today. You need to plan in reverse. Start the day after your funeral. Who outlives you? What is your human legacy, your human impact? If you want kids, grandkids, great grandkids, mentees, students and people left behind that love each other, that support each other, that are stronger because you were there, but even stronger now because you're gone. And they can move on and take those roles and lead forward. They're sad, but also joyful because they know the future is bright and they're together and unified. If that's the legacy you want to craft, then build that backwards. Start 20, that's, that's 50 years from now, 60 years from now. Start 20 years from now. What needs to be happening 20 years from now to get there? Then 10 years from now, then five years from now, then one year from now, then nine, nine, let's say 90 days from now, three months, then a month from now, then a week from now, then a day from now. What am I doing today that's going to get me there 60 years from now? And what husband or wife do I need to build forward into that as well? And what skills should I have to get there? Reverse engineer from the end goal, then live it forward and fine tune as you go forward. We are called to build to a plan. We're not called to just barely survive day to day. That's not what God has in mind for us.
- [107:21]
A
And when you're imagining this life long process towards a final end, maybe that day after day before the funeral, right, your funeral, and you're envisioning all of these things, I think a lot of people may try doing that. That's an interesting thought experiment, Adam. But then they're like, okay, I don't think I'm actually, this is realistic. You know, we're just going to kind of see how it goes, try our best. I'll maybe, you know, train to become a nurse or something. And you know, these are ideas, but I don't know, like Instagram tells me to like dream of having a big fancy house. I doubt I'm gonna have one. Whatever, right? There's just this like milieu of chaotic visions and ideas and then consumerism, like you're flipping through social media and you have like ins, you know, visions of, you know, Pinterest boards. How do you develop a vision that's a Good one. And that's one. That is one you should actually aim at.
- [108:13]
B
Yeah.
- [108:14]
A
Because again, back to the practicality question.
- [108:16]
B
Absolutely. It's the man's job, to be honest with you. The woman creates a rough draft of what she's hoping for. The man's job as the CEO is to come in and provide a fleshed out complete vision he presents to her. And then the woman chooses to commit to that vision and then she devotes herself to the man. I always tell people this, this is
- [108:37]
A
a process before marriage.
- [108:38]
B
This is a process before marriage. This is the process of becoming married. A woman does not commit to a man. That is not the correct pathway. Women don't commit to men and they shouldn't. Women commit to vision, then they devote themselves to that man to co create that vision together.
- [108:53]
A
And if he has no vision, then
- [108:55]
B
he's not doing his job.
- [108:58]
A
And she can maybe inspire the vision.
- [109:00]
B
She can demand a vision be given. And I say demand as a co executive would demand. Polite but firm. We need a vision. Our business is spinning. We're going to go bankrupt. We have one week. I need a vision from you one week from now.
- [109:16]
A
Now. What if they're already married so that the stakes are even higher? There's no, like, oh, maybe he's not the right fit for me, I'm moving on and there isn't a vision. Or there is a sort of a vision, but it's like we're just going to, you know, pay the mortgage and make sure the kids are well behaved.
- [109:32]
B
That's not a vision, that's survival. Most men, I'll be honest with you, most men don't lack a vision because they don't care. That's not the process. Most men lack of vision because they are just barely scraping by. They don't think it's possible to have much more than that. They are just barely coping. They are overwhelmed with stress. Usually they're alone. They don't have male friends, they don't have mentors, they don't have guides, they don't have teachers, they don't have other men. Men need men and women need women. And we're diving into this trying to think that men and women fix each other. Men need men and women need women. We always have and always will. That's the process. So men need to be going to other men and building, building those survival instincts, building skills, getting out of that pit, having a mentor who helps him elevate men as man. What is it they say? As steel sharpens steel, so one man sharpens another. It's not a woman's job to sharpen her husband. It's her job to keep it in his ear endlessly that he is not sharp enough and then say, who will you be talking to?
- [110:28]
A
She can't provide it for him is what you're saying.
- [110:30]
B
A woman cannot be a man. I am sorry. A wife cannot be a husband or a best friend to a man either. You can't be his best friend.
- [110:38]
A
So what you're saying it sounds like is the woman cannot solve this for the man. She can only ask it from the man and then provide what she can provide as a woman, which is help with execution. A soft place to land, you know, be. You know, be intimate, feel safety together and connection together, et cetera.
- [110:56]
B
Correct. It is not her job to do this. Now, can women do it if they absolutely have to, for themselves? Yes. Women can do most things men can do. It burns them badly. It destroys their nervous system and gives them reproductive cancers at a much elevated rate. It literally kills them and makes their quality of life lower. So it hurts the entire time they are dying. They can. They shouldn't have to. It's man's job to do these things. People get this wrong. They think that women exist to try to just make life easier for men. Men exist to make life easier for women to do the actual work of the human race. Masculinity exists to create a buffer so femininity can do the job on the inside of raising loving, intimate, healthy, secure children who become good men and women in the future. Men and husbands exist to facilitate the family. That is our job. So when we take the role of leader, it's servant leader, right? Exactly as Christ does. That is our job. So if he's not doing his job, he is failing to serve the family. This is not. Let's make him more comfortable as the king. This is. Why is the king failing us? This is his entire reason for being a king.
- [112:04]
A
How big of a problem is it if the visions are different?
- [112:07]
B
10 out of 10.
- [112:09]
A
That's like a mega problem.
- [112:11]
B
10 out of 10, that is the absolute problem. And you need to break up immediately. Have some conversations, certainly make sure.
- [112:17]
A
What if they're like they're close but they're not fully there?
- [112:20]
B
Have conversations. How aligned are we? Why the differences? Can they work together? Are they maybe off because I have trauma? Or they may be off because I don't know what I want fully? Can we have those conversations and discover this together talk? But if they can't align, you can't build It.
- [112:38]
A
I'm sorry, what if someone gets married and they kind of had a sense. The vision's mostly the same. They weren't as developed in intentionality of discovering it or even envision. Envisioning it the way that you would maybe have done if they'd done your course. Right. But they're married and then they're like. The visions are. They seem. The visions seem to be further moving apart.
- [113:00]
B
Are they Christians or are they not Christians? In this cycle, then we really have no choice except to actually unify and make marriage what it's supposed to be.
- [113:09]
A
So find a vision that you can do together.
- [113:11]
B
Correct. I usually guide most of my couples. There's five key areas of vision that we can usually unify around. But you have to sit and craft that vision together as a couple. It's very rarely so widely apart that it wasn't a parent. Now maybe if she is overwhelmingly desiring to have a career in being a lawyer or a surgeon and he wants a stay at home wife or something like this for the kids, for their
- [113:38]
A
sake and they just somehow didn't know
- [113:40]
B
this, somehow didn't know this before they got married. Maybe. But very rarely is it so wildly discrepancy like that between them that it's unfunctional talk. Figure out why those things are important. Figure out what you can do together, do those things and have those conversations. But even the art of talking about it is lost for most people. If we can just get husbands and wives to the talking board and to the table and say, why do you want the things you want? Actually tell me. I won't judge you or be angry at you. Tell me why you want them and why are they important? Can I ask a few more questions? Okay. Can I share with you what I'm wanting and why that's important to me? Can we actually talk about that and understand each other? Well, could we move a couple pieces? Could we maybe make this work? Can we prioritize your half and then prioritize mine? Can we make that flow? That's what we do. Absolutely, by all means, as a couple. But again, secure attachment, which means conducting ourselves with love toward each other, but also trusting each other and having those honest conversations.
- [114:39]
A
Is the ideal in dating to find somebody who matches the vision? 10 out of 10?
- [114:43]
B
As much as you humanly can? Yes.
- [114:45]
A
How likely is that for the average person? Should people be just like the attraction? 7 out of 10? And it maybe bumps up after getting to know them? Maybe the connection in terms of the vision is like six to seven out of ten. And then you just love them so much and you kind of get along with their vision and you kind of move their direction a little bit and you're like 8 hours of 10.
- [115:03]
B
Most women have a pretty rough idea of what their vision is. Marriage, kids, love, intimacy, legacy, they want that. But the man has immense specifics because it's his job too. The problem is that most women try to get to a man who doesn't want marriage or kids and she just is convinced that if she loves him hard enough, he'll eventually want it.
- [115:22]
A
Meaning she loves his vision, but the vision doesn't really.
- [115:25]
B
She doesn't even love his vision. She doesn't even want that. She loves him and committed commits to him and then completely negates the vision entirely. This is why a woman cannot and should not commit to a man because she's bypassing the vision completely and she's actually sabotaging herself and him and him.
- [115:41]
A
So she can't just love him, she has to love his vision.
- [115:44]
B
That's what marriage is.
- [115:45]
A
And, and she should ascertain that vision in dating.
- [115:48]
B
That's what marriage is. And if you don't want that, then go live together in a house and pretend you're married. But that's not marriage.
- [115:57]
A
What is the most radical kind of transformation that you have seen? Let's do the married couples, because they're baked, where they didn't really have these tools to understand vision or each other, connection, all of this stuff. But once they did the work using some of these tools, all of a sudden they have a vision and they're just like a shooting star.
- [116:18]
B
I'm thinking of one couple in particular. They came in, they've been married for 30 years, they raised kids together. He was emotionally close off the entire time.
- [116:24]
A
The kids were already raised, kids were
- [116:26]
B
already raised, they were adults. She just thought he was emotionally closed off. She was starved emotionally. Her whole marriage just assumed it was never going to get better. She tried to just martyr herself and be good and be a good loving wife. She assumed that marriage was going to be cold and unhappy, but she was devoted to it. She was raising the family. They actually had a similar vision together. They were doing the vision, but without any actual joy or intimacy. Come to find out, he had had multiple short term affairs throughout the course of the marriage over 30 years. And he had told himself, because our marriage is joyless and unhappy and miserable, my wife doesn't want me. This is all I can do to cope with my stress, to be a
- [117:06]
A
good husband and he hid it from her.
- [117:07]
B
And he hid it from her completely.
- [117:10]
A
What happened next?
- [117:11]
B
So she found out eventually, at 30 years of marriage, and was furious, and rightly so. Not only because he'd had multiple affairs and lied to her, and he had denied her the human dignity of understanding what was actually being done under her on the surface and the betrayal, but because she had lived for 30 years in emotional starvation and thought she had to because she was being faithful to him. That was really the big piece. She was almost ready to walk, but said, I have to give this a try, because God, in her eyes, God wants me to. Right. I will give it a shot. So they came to me. She said, if you don't sign up for Adam, then it's over. I'm done with you. So he said, okay, fine.
- [117:53]
A
So that was her consequence.
- [117:54]
B
That was the thing. Adam will fix you. That was her thing because she'd watched a bunch of my material because she found that he was avoidantly attached. So they came in, and he just sat there like he owned it. He said, I'm awful. I've broken my family. I'm terrible. He called himself the perpetrator. I'm the perpetrator here. She has a right to hate me. I am just going to do this. And he was resolved to just be miserable for the rest of his life. To. To be with his family. He hated himself. I had to actually walk him through the process of. Let's put the judgment aside for a moment. What are the gaps that allowed this to happen? Well, you never opened up to your wife, ever. You kept her locked out. You thought you had to. You made decisions based on really bad information. You were tempted biochemically. You fell into that, and you made a choice. But you also had these problems. You were emotionally shut off. You've learned otherwise. What are you going to do about all these gaps we see? Are you prepared to completely transform your life? Do all the things that terrify you, Be vulnerable to people you never would before, have conversations with people you never would before? Are you prepared to be a different human being with everyone else outside of your. Your marriage so that your wife can see that you've actually changed as a human being, and then give her the best of you going forward? And he said he was very scared. He said, yes. So I said, all right, I'm going to put that to the test. So I made him go around and open up to everyone in his life, have all the conversations he was ashamed to have about desires, needs, hopes, goals, weaknesses. I made him build accountability with male friends, with his priest, with everybody around him. His life transformed. And eventually he stopped trying to make it change so that he would respect him again. He was joyful at making the change and said, even if she leaves me, I will keep doing this. And only at that place was she ever able to start trusting him again. Because the change wasn't to try to win her back. The change was so intense, he craved it. And then all of a sudden, her respect for him came back stronger than it ever had. Her desire came back very, very fiercely. Actually, they had a second honeymoon phase in their marriage. At that point, she felt safer and more loved than she'd ever felt. And her brain began differentiating him from the man he was before to the new man he was today. Because he actually was a new creature. Right? We hear about that. The idea of resurrection, of a new being. He was. But in the fullness of truth and love and intimacy. We cannot really be a devout, faithful Christian living the faith until we've embraced secure attachment, which means intimacy, openness, trust, vulnerability, all of those accountability practices as well. That's what secure attachment is. And the faith demands that of us. When he did that, their marriage turned into what he had always wanted, what she had always wanted. They were joyful.
- [120:45]
A
How long ago was that? Can I ask how long ago?
- [120:49]
B
I closed out with him about a year ago.
- [120:51]
A
So they've been going strong for a couple years or what would you say?
- [120:54]
B
I did get an email from them, actually, not too long ago, talking about how amazing there are smiling, happy photos on a cruise together. So they're doing amazing.
- [121:02]
A
Praise God.
- [121:03]
B
Absolutely.
- [121:04]
A
So it wasn't just like, we felt good for a few weeks and then it fell off the rails?
- [121:07]
B
No, it took them about six months. About six months. Start to finish. From Adam. I hate my life. And I'm the scum of the earth perpetrator, too. I am more joyful than I have ever been in my life. And it's not that the affairs were good. It's that being found out was good. And he was happy he had been found out because the joy and the connection was so real. About six months.
- [121:26]
A
Wow. This has been amazing. I want to do a quick round at this end here of red flags and green flags. Let's do it for discernment connected to attachment. Okay, well, first, tell us the different types of disordered attachments.
- [121:40]
B
Yeah.
- [121:41]
A
Insecure attachments, I should say.
- [121:42]
B
Absolutely. So attachments are binary. You either have secure attachment or you are fully connected with the other humans around you with good boundaries. Or you have insecure attachment where you are cold, isolated, distant, connected, or afraid of abandonment, afraid of betrayal. You just can't connect to humans, so you relate to them by stimulation instead. And being stimulated, that's a binary. Now, on the insecure side, you can have the anxious side, which says, I am the problem. I'm not good enough. I am unlovable, and I will be abandoned if I don't make people happy enough. Or you can be avoidant, where you say, other people are the problem. I can't let them close because they get dysregulated and hurt and betray, so I must be alone. And then there's a third in between. It's disorganized. Just means cannot be organized into either category. So it's in the middle, disorganized. I've updated the field and I've pulled out two subtypes of each of those four, but that's the main.
- [122:31]
A
And secure attachment looks like what it's
- [122:35]
B
you and I being able to have an honest discussion about needs, sadness, worry, concerns, and then solving problems together because our nervous systems are regulated. And I trust you to hear me out, and you trust me to hear you out and that we will work together for mutual good. That's secure attachment. It's open, transparent, and communicative.
- [122:52]
A
And what I love about that is secure, attached, securely attached. People may still have a fear or a worry or even a tendency that's disorganized, that is avoidant, that is anxious. But they know what to do.
- [123:06]
B
Absolutely.
- [123:06]
A
They seek. They seek communication, they seek connection. They seek openness instead of closing off and rejecting or plastering on and losing sense of identity, et cetera.
- [123:16]
B
I call that becoming remade, secure. You weren't raised secure. You remade yourself into secure attachment. Absolutely. You may have feelings and worries, and then you go to someone and say, hey, I have a feeling I'm worried. Can I tell you about it? Can we work on it? And they say, sure. And you fix it. And it grows the bond between you. It's more unitive together because you've shared trust and love and bonded through oxytocin and vasopressin.
- [123:39]
A
So what are the flags that people might not realize are red that have to do with attachment in dating?
- [123:48]
B
Yeah. And people out there will recognize these in partners, but also themselves. Being afraid to ask honest, serious questions on dates because you're coming across as too much, trying to just go with it and see where it goes over the next five years. Being afraid to share your vision because you'll be judged Being afraid to ask deeper, probing questions because you're afraid you'll get laughed at or insulted or rejected. Thinking that you have to comply and be agreeable with other people so that they will ever, ever, ever be fair or honest with you. That it's all based on how you make them feel. Building relationships based on emotions instead of based on what you're trying to grow together. Thinking that marriage and romance is purely about emotional stimulation. Together instead of building an actual practical thing going forward. Even in religion, thinking that God hates you because you're imperfect. Thinking that he's endlessly judging and disappointed. Or the other side, the avoidance side. Thinking that he's that watchmaker God who started it, kicked over the domino, and is now watching you and judging your performance to see if you're good enough for him. All of those factors go into insecure attachment. But realistically, it all boils down to this. Are your relationships with human beings direct and clear and focused on having transparency? Or are they about stimulating each other to try to protect both of you from hurt? That's really the connection piece. That's the secure attachment.
- [125:11]
A
Green flags. What are the green flags that somebody, if they have attachment issues, might feel like red flags to them or like, be almost scary to them, but they're actually green flags in dating.
- [125:23]
B
Asking direct, probing questions, but in a friendly, polite manner, not an angry manner or a demanding manner. You're not asking to see their bank statements on the first date, but you're asking, what are you doing and why? Help me understand. Overwhelming. Just curiosity. It's not the Spanish Inquisition, it's actual, authentic curiosity. Being able to share their challenges without collapsing into those things and saying, oh, woe is me. I'm so terrible. Here's a challenge I'm working on. I'm excited about it. Here's how I'm growing. Being able to share your values and wanting commitment and being clear about that from day one. Building toward commitment because that's all you're interested in. Having a range of good friendships that you talk about openly with everybody around you because there are no secrets. All of these are really good green flags that feel overwhelming to people with insecure attachment at the beginning. So if this feels like too much, you probably are afraid of connection.
- [126:12]
A
How can people find resources to better understand maybe areas that they're trying to heal in themselves when it comes to attachment? Or better prepare for meeting the one or being married to the one and having a strongly attached marriage?
- [126:28]
B
Resources. I have a lot of great resources.
- [126:30]
A
You are the king of resources.
- [126:31]
B
I am. I try to be. I have. I have two amazing resources right now on my website for free on adamlanesmith.com youm can go on there. I have the attachment style assessment that will show you what your attachment style is. I've had, I think 40,000 people go through it so far. It's one of the biggest studies that we're running so far. I'm so excited about this. But it gives you what your exact style is with some opening steps of fixing it and becoming more secure. Number one, I have my free attachment newsletter on there where I'm sending out multiple times a week all kinds of information about skill training, conversations to have very practical, crunchy material. Those are great places to start. Me and my team of coaches are also on standby to help individuals and couples to work. Work right now on anything you need to be fixing wherever you are, no matter how hard things are. We're happy to begin starting and I am running a retreat actually very soon down in San Diego with in person training with me and my team to walk you through a intense breakthrough protocol.
- [127:25]
A
Can people still sign up?
- [127:26]
B
Absolutely. I'd love to have people sign up. It's all on Adamlanesmith.com Amazing.
- [127:30]
A
Adam, as usual, this has been phenomenal. Thank you. Thank you. Your work is so valuable and important in helping so many people and I'm very grateful that you joined the show again.
- [127:39]
B
Thank you for having me here.
- [127:40]
A
A big thank you to our channel partner, ewtn. EWTN is the world's largest religious broadcast network reaching millions of people every single day with the beautiful truth of the gospel. You can be the first to watch new Lila rose show episodes 24 hours before YouTube over@ewtn.com ondemand and on the EWTN app.