← The Lindsey Anderson Show
The Lindsey Anderson Show
Generating High-Quality Referrals Using the Upstream Model with Justin Stoddart
00:28:25
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- [00:04]
A
Are you ready for next level growth in your business? Welcome to the Millionaire Maker show where we pull back the curtain on the exact strategies, tools and mindsets that build million dollar empires. If you're hungry for more time, more freedom and a whole lot more impact, you've come to the right place. Buckle up because we're about to ignite your business journey. Now here's Lindsay.
- [00:35]
B
Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of the Millionaire Maker Show. Today I have a very special guest, Mr. Justin Stodder. Now, Justin has over two decades of experience owning, running and growing successful small businesses. Justin is an authority in marketing, branding and business strategy. He currently leads a technology company in the real estate space and coaches industry professionals through trainings and masterminds, helping them navigate challenges and seize opportunities. As the host of the Think Bigger real estate show, Justin interviews top achievers, sharing insights to inspire growth and impact. He is also the international bestseller and author of the Upstream Model, where he reveals strategies for building a massive referral business. Welcome to the show, Justin. Nice to have you on.
- [01:25]
C
So fun to be here. I love, even though I will admit I had a hand in that intro right with. It's still fun to hear. It's still fun to hear. Sometimes you're so caught up in the weeds. Is it working? Is it? And it's. Oh, yeah. Okay, okay.
- [01:38]
B
You're like, I am amazing. Yeah, that's right. I'll go that far. You wouldn't be a guest on the show if I didn't think so.
- [01:45]
C
Thank you.
- [01:45]
B
Is there anything you want to add there? Did I miss anything? What are you known for, Justin?
- [01:49]
C
Yeah, I know the upstream model really has become a centerpiece which I know we're going to get into today. It's really a partnership model for businesses. The company proinsight that I'm really passionate about is really the ability to take the principles of the upstream model and apply them in a very simple manner. It's a simple technology that gives people the ability to easily connect with other professionals that can refer them frequently. So that's been really fun because you get these concepts in a book that I applied in businesses, but not everybody can apply them very simply. And now to have a platform that I can direct people to that helps professionals far beyond the ones that I could ever reach be able to apply those principles is really fun.
- [02:30]
B
I love that. And we really agree on the upstream model. In today's day and age, with AI and the competition like upstream is really the best way to get high quality leads. But don't let me Take your thunder here. What is the upstream model? Justin, explain it for us.
- [02:45]
C
I'll go back to my days when I was a high end home builder. I was 25 at the time. I'd been trained to build a great home. I knew how to do it. I was confident. My predecessor, the one who had trained me, started focusing on land development and he put me over his custom home business. And soon I realized that I just need to go do this on my own. And I left assuming that it would be as easy to get new clients as he had made it appear. And I think we've probably all done that before. It's I can do that business, whether it be real estate, whether it be whatever, whatever business we're in, we're like hey, I can do that. And we realized that while we might be good at doing the business, getting the business is a whole nother component which I know you specialize in. And what I realize is I don't have a big advertising budget, I can't compete with people on that. Nor is my personal sphere like my friends who were also 25 like me. They were not referring me million dollar construction projects. So it's like shoot, is this going to work? And I joined a local BNI chapter thinking like I'll meet other business professionals who can refer me. And while I made lots of friends in that group, I can't say that anybody was really that helpful to my business. And I think that's maybe experience that some people have at least depending upon your profession as I'm spending a lot of time having one to ones with people who are lovely but I can't really help them that much and they can't really help me that much. And so it just became not a great return on my time. At that point I had a bit of an aha, a bit of an awakening that changed my, the trajectory of my career forever, which is I realized I didn't have to everyone. I just needed to know the right people and create a real alliance or partnership with them and those who particularly already had influence with my next ideal client for me as a home builder that was an architect and all of their clients were going to be building a home next. So I realized I didn't have to know everybody in town. I didn't have to have my billboards all over the place. I just needed to build real value, a real value centered relationship. Not one in which I showed up with my handout that doesn't work or it's very common. After figuring out how to do that. It really opened the doors to opportunity for me. I then brought that into the real estate industry, into the title industry, which I was a part of for a number of years. And I began coaching and training real estate agents in particular on how to set up similar partnerships with financial advisors, with property managers, with tax professionals, where they already know like they share an ideal client and they serve them differently. So why not just partner? When I say partner up, I don't mean like share in an actual business, but integrate each other into each other's client experience in a way that's a value add to the client. And so anyway, long story short, that I was invited to author a book on that topic and that was an incredible journey for me to really distill it down to how do you do this at a very simple level. And then that led me to meet the founder of Pro Insight and be brought on as a co founder as well as the opportunity to lead the company. Now as we're scaling a SaaS based, meaning software as a service based company, extending that to far beyond the real estate industry. So anyway, upstream model is just, it's getting upstream from where all your competitors are at by making a connection with a professional who's serves your same client just before they need you. Right.
- [05:47]
B
I love that. And that's why it's called upstream. It's so good. I love the way that you put it. And it's a client, you're trying to find a relationship of somebody who has influence over your next client. I love the way you worded that. Can you share like how do we know?
- [06:05]
C
How do we know if we found the right person?
- [06:07]
B
Who do. Who are people looking for? How do I know who these Right people are?
- [06:10]
C
Yeah, for sure. Oftentimes it's right in front of our face. Right. We think about the clients that we're serving right now. We simply step back and ask ourselves who else either just served this client or could also be valuable in collaborating with me on the service of this client who's in a different industry, like who are those professionals? And oftentimes it comes down to answering this question, which is why is my client making this decision at this time? In other words, if I'm a real estate agent, for example, and I say why are my clients moving right now? Oh, it's because they're retiring and they're relocating to be closer to their kids. Okay, got it. So the stage of life is retirement and simplifying what other professionals might be needed at this very moment. That would be of benefit to them and then ask them, hey, many of my clients who are going through retirement find it really beneficial to work with a tax professional as they're preparing to relocate to a different state. Do you have one who you're working with that's already a level 9 or 10 professional that can help you through that? If they say yes, say, would you do me a favor and make an introduction? I'd love to collaborate with them as we help you through this transition. Would you be open to meeting one who is a 9 or a 10? Right. So right within the very clients you're serving right now, there are other professionals that they need, and it's just doing a quick audit to see, do you already have these people? If not, can I help bring one to the table? And that allows you to then come from contribution to these other professionals. But really, it's probably easier than we think to really just say, who else do they need right now? Who else is serving them? Right.
- [07:43]
B
I like that. And I also really. The tip of if you can get them to make an introduction for you, then a lot of the hard work at this relationship momentum is taken care of with a simple introduction that really shortcuts things. Have you found that to be the case?
- [07:57]
C
Oh, entirely. I appreciate bringing that up because even in our business right now of Pro Insight, where we're looking for the right professionals in every community, it's so interesting because we have an outbound model which we're calling professionals, who we've identified as being the perfect fit clients. And when we come in from that level, we're seen as a solicitor. Now we have the individuals who are making those calls. They actually are peers. So they're actually really good agents as well. So quickly they can switch that to where they. They feel like they're respected more quickly than if they were just somebody who just smiled and dialed all day. But nevertheless, it is still an uphill battle. Right. In fact, just a few minutes ago, I had a really good friend of mine who's a coach in the industry. She introduced me to an agent out of Spokane. And immediately, the way that she edified me and brought me to the table, it was immediate credibility. He was there looking at me as at least a peer, if not a mentor and leader, because I partnered with a real estate coach who knows great agents, and she was able to make an introduction. And within a matter of minutes, he was, how do I become a part of this? Whereas otherwise we're spending all this effort to gain trust and credibility. Whereas when it comes to another professional, we borrow their trust and their credibility. So we start way ahead of the game and as a result we're able to just identify and assess if it's actually the right fit. If it is, it's easy.
- [09:20]
B
Yeah, I love that. Now you bring up this idea of value center relationships. What are some tips, like what is a value driven relationship to you? What does that mean?
- [09:30]
C
I think it begins with identifying with really knowing the other professional partner. Right. So for example, let's say that I'm going to partner with a tax professional. I'd want to come into that relationship, ideally introduced and referred in, and then talk to them to say, tell me what is an ideal client? I know you serve a lot of clients and you probably do things that you love and other things you don't love as much. Talk to me about the clients who you love to serve. Right. Like who are they and where do they usually come from? And if you could change one thing about your business that would allow you to serve those people better or more frequently, what would that be? And so it's really being the interviewer, right, Very much like you're doing right now is terrific. It's really identifying what is going on in this person's world and how do I. Even if they don't need more business, which most tax professionals will say, I don't need more business. But if you said what if you could exchange like a whole bunch of your tax preparation business with tax advisory business, would that be interesting to you? And most of the time they're like, yes, please. Once you, you learn that about one professional in a particular industry, now you're that much further ahead when it comes time for you to talk to the next professional in that industry because you've learned about some common key words.
- [10:41]
B
Yeah, words, you know what to say, what's going to make them be like that really interests me. I love that. Do you have any tips? So relationships are a long term game. It's a long term situation. You have to be depositing into those relationship bank accounts. What are your tips on keeping these relationships hot?
- [10:55]
C
Yeah, I'll say that oftentimes the way that people think about professional networking is I'm going to go to some sort of a social event or networking event. I'm going to hand out some cards, I'm going to get some cards, I'm then going to follow up, see if we can go to coffee, then lunch and then we'll go maybe go golf. And then at that point we're going to talk about Business. So there's this long, like, courtship, almost as if you're, like, romantically dating somebody before you can ever go for the kiss? And it's. That's not how this needs to work right now. I'm not saying that you try and propose on the first date, but when you don't think of it in those terms, maybe you've already collaborated with somebody working with particular clients, Right. Or you've identified that one of your clients would benefit by having that person at the table. Jump ahead a little bit because there's already so much common ground. You aren't starting from zero. And you can jump right to the fact of, hey, I've identified that my clients would be well served having a really great. We'll just use tax professional. A great tax professional. Are you looking to grow your business, number one? And number two, would you be open to sitting down so that you can educate me on what an ideal client looks like and how I might be able to weave you in to my client conversations? Right. So now you're able to come from contribution, but you're not spending all this time investing in a relationship, wondering if maybe at some point there's an opportunity to have a business relationship. Let's just cut to it. We're all busy professionals, right? Let's jump to it. Like, I would like to introduce someone like you to my clients. Can we have a conversation about that? And assuming their overall spirit is one of reciprocity and that they have a similar question, a series of questions for you. I think there's probably a good fit, and it's somebody who not only will serve your clients well, but they'll also reciprocate and bring you to the table with their clients. They're very collaborative in nature. That's part of what we've really worked to do at ProInsight is to expedite some of that networking that can take so long that most people actually turn back from doing it. They're like, it takes forever to do that, and it doesn't have to. You can actually jump ahead. And our platform is really designed to help pair up. It's almost think of, like, match.com, like, I already know everything that I'm looking for and everything I'm not looking for, so just pair me up with that type of person.
- [12:57]
A
Great.
- [12:57]
C
Now we can see if there's actually a fit or not. So that's what we should do in the networking space because there's so much opportunity and so few people are tapping into it, because typically that process is a bit antiquated and really slow.
- [13:06]
B
I love that, just being straight up front and direct. They brought clients as much as you want clients. Why can't we collaborate and let's make some magic happen working together.
- [13:15]
C
Yeah. Perfect. Busy professionals will be attracted to that. Right.
- [13:19]
B
The Prof. Like you said, level nine and tens like those guys are going to be all in on that.
- [13:23]
C
Yeah. Those who have all kinds of time to just hang out and chat and take another coffee meeting. You just aren't working with someone who makes very much per hour, which means that they really can't be that beneficial to your business. And if you're that person, I would encourage you that you don't have to be that person, that you can expedite the process and you'll actually attract people who are moving and shaking and that they'll open doors to great clients for you more readily because they value their time more.
- [13:46]
B
I love that. Okay, so you help people with the upstream model, of course, through your book, do you? And then you have Pro Insights, which is an app that is connecting like these level 9 and professionals. Can you add a little bit more context there?
- [14:00]
C
Yeah. So what we set out to do, again, because our heart is really around property owners and serving property owners. Having come out of the building industry, the real estate industry Tour, we identified 31 professional categories, all of whom are having conversations every single day of the week with property owners. So half of them approximately are asset based professionals. Attorneys, CPAs, real estate agents, lenders, financial advisors, property managers, et cetera. Like that group that deal with people around what we call around life events. Someone's retiring, someone just had someone pass away, new baby in the family, maybe there's a marriage, maybe there's a divorce. Like these life events oftentimes are correlated with a property being transferred. People are downsizing, they're moving into two homes, moving into one home, whatever that may look like. Those professionals are dealing with people around life events. So they're very attuned to what might be the next real estate opportunity. Right. Which when a home goes up for sale, almost 30 professionals go to work. Like all kinds of professionals come together to transfer the money, to update the home, to move the people. There's just so much opportunity there. And so we've really centered around that. The other half of the professionals are those who are home service professionals. In other words, they're there oftentimes as a precursor to somebody listing and selling a home, like a roofing contractor, like a painter, between 30 to 40% of the time That a painter is brought in, it's because people are preparing to sell like one out of three. That's crazy. So we know that when a painter walks through the door, if we could simply train that painter on asking the question of what prompted you to want to paint your house? Oh, you're looking to sell. Do you already have a real estate agent you're working with? If not, might I introduce you to one? So that simple conversation allows the painter to now who's been receiving referrals from the real estate agent for decades, can now start to give them back the other way and really solidify themselves as the preferred. That preferred provider. Our platform is really designed to take very personally vetted professionals from each of those industries in every community of the country and have them learn these principles together so that collaboration really starts to fly both in the service of common clients as well as in identifying new introductions to those clients. So it's really, that's the ecosystem that we're building.
- [16:11]
B
Powerful. I love how you're able to create these really high powered relationships all through your app. It sounds really powerful.
- [16:17]
C
Thank you. Fun. We're excited about it.
- [16:19]
B
So in turn, in terms of the upstream model, what are some common obstacles that people have when they read the book? What are some obstacles people have and the, and the resolution to those obstacles?
- [16:28]
C
I would say a lot of it is, or part of it is the antiquated model of I need to go slow before I can run. It's no. If you're working with runners, then you're going to want to be running, right? Like you're not going to find sprinters necessarily sitting down or people who are running like sitting down. So it's okay be in motion and working to find those referral partners on the go. You know, one of the things, I think it's a paradigm shift that when we look at our client base, we think of how much value there is to us, right? Like how often does this person transact, how much is their average cart value? Right. Kind of the different terms that we learn about or average price point. When it comes to real estate, one of the things that people run into is that they look at their clients through such a small window, they don't see the additional opportunity. If you look at the most valuable companies in the world, Facebook, Google, Apple, what are they? At the core, they're data companies. They're gathering data on people. Right. And as a result, they have so much data that they can really serve people up, whether it be advertising or whether it be products that are very interesting to them. And so when we think about, I'll use the example of a real estate agent actually has, call it 303 to 500 very personal relationships. They know where they live, where they work, why they live there, what schools they go to, how many kids they have. They know so much data about these people that they can actually be really valuable. Not in a creepy way, but they can identify that, hey, this person is actually preparing to retire in the next couple of years. And it looks like they could. Like last time I served them, they didn't have an estate plan in place. I wonder if it would be appropriate for me to reach out to them or it would be appropriate for me to reach out to them to say, hey, I just remembered that when we met, you guys didn't have an estate plan in place. And I know retirement's on the horizon. Do you have an estate attorney? Have you thought about that? And do you have an estate attorney who can help you guys navigate that process so that when you do retire that you keep more of the hard earned money that you know that you've earned over the years? That's a very value added question, especially from the space of being a real estate agent, because you're not getting paid on that. Right, so to speak. But you've added such value to those particular clients and now to the estate attorney that you've brought to the table, that you've opened the door for that client to say, my goodness, our agent is unbelievable. Not only do we want to refer them to other people, but we're going to tell other people about them. And that estate attorney says, you know what, I'm working with five clients this week who I'm working with their estate plan. I wonder if they have a really great real estate agent. And so part of it is just starting to see people differently. This is very much a relationship based how can I take care of people even when I'm not getting paid? Allows you to get paid much more than you ever did by having that singular focus of how can I monetize them? It's really serving them at a high level opens the door to serve them and their friends more often. And the clients of the professionals that you're bringing to actually help them at that particular time with that particular thing.
- [19:32]
B
And also helps with that repeat business for them to continually stay with you because you're always offering up that kind of value. It's a win win situation. Yeah, totally, totally. So what do you see for the future of this? Like the future of Pro Insight, the future of this kind of networking and upstream modeling. What do you see the future here?
- [19:52]
C
What we're building at ProInsight is a 50,000 professional network. We'll have about 4,000 real estate agents and 4,000 lenders in our signature network. So that signature network, in other words, think of one in every community, right? And there's a top real estate agent paired with a top lender. And those two professionals are able to then hand pick the other 30 professional categories that they collaborate well with. If they don't, we will and we'll build out these small little ecosystems in every community. We'll then invite those professionals because now they're one of one in the community to share that application, the app, with their client base to where now it's not a matter of just hoping to anticipate what these clients need, but it's, I've given them this purview of who are the best professionals in my community, that, that I'm the only one in my profession in my community. So I have that exclusive position. And it's also I've got all these other professionals around me with whom I'm, who I'm collaborating with, which only adds to additional retention and value. But now these professionals have this extremely coveted spot in our ProInsight application that it gives them additional client opportunities, both from the professionals as well as from community members who are saying, how do I get involved in that? What we call a wealth advisory team. We believe that every household in America deserves to be treated almost like billionaires do. Look at Elon Musk. He has what's called a family office. In other words, his wealth is so great he has full time team members who are working on helping to maintain and grow his wealth. Same is true with any uber wealthy person that has a net worth over about 50 million. They have their own family office. We can't afford to have full time staff working on our investments, right? We just don't have the kind of assets. But if you were to think of each community having this wealth advisory team, almost their own kind of family office, right? These professionals who kind of work collaboratively on their behalf. That's our vision of helping these professionals to defy and defend against being a commodity like the Rocket mortgages and the Redfin are trying to do, which is to squeeze the professional out of the equation and have it be all tagged. We believe that technology should bring these professionals together and make them more valuable collectively to the community than any of these other technology offerings that are really set up to step between the professional and their client ever could be. And we believe that's the future of well paid professionals that are serving property owners. And so that's what we're thrilled to build here in the US over the next five years and then to extend it into other countries as well.
- [22:23]
B
What is your take on being able to make more sales through the upstream model? And like with AI and like the competition out there, like, how important is it going to be in the future, do you think, to rely on referrals and upstream model?
- [22:38]
C
Yeah, very much. I think especially there's a demographic right now, right over the next 10 years, there's $16.7 trillion of real estate wealth that's held by baby boomers that's going to be changing hands. Right. Some of it will be sold, some will be transferred to other generations. That generation in particular loves to have individual relationships and to be consulted with. And so this is a prime opportunity for professionals to really double down on that and serve that population at a high level. But we also recognize we're not anti technology, just the opposite. But we just believe technology should make us better, not separate us from our clients. One feature that is in beta testing right now is called our deep dive, which as a professional using our technology, it would give you a private feed of all of the real estate properties that your clients hold, how much they're worth, what the loan amounts look like, what their equity position is, which is, by the way, is all public record data. This isn't creepy. This is just aggregating data from public records. This allows the real estate and these other professionals to be very much advisors. And how we see AI is actually working with the professional to be reviewing that data and suggesting and prompting them on what conversations they should be having.
- [23:55]
B
Oh, I like that.
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C
You know, with their property owners. So again, we use AI, but we don't use it to replace ourselves, we use it to enhance ourselves. In short.
- [24:03]
B
Yeah. What is one thing you wish you would have known before you got started?
- [24:07]
C
The premise of my podcast, the Think Bigger Real Estate podcast. I was attending a training up in Seattle by a gentleman by the name of Ben Kinney. And on Ben's wall he had painted Think Bigger. And I just fell in love with that phrase to the point to where I named my podcast that. And as I think back, I started to really try and think bigger. It started my podcast, I started intentionally trying to be around the Lindsay Taylors of the world. That was my goal, right. Is that if I can spend more time with greatness with people like you that it would expand my possibilities. And I wish I could have had that thought to do that sooner. I'm not saying that everybody needs to have a podcast, but if you can surround yourself with more people who are the dreamers and the achievers, the people who are invested in building really big lives. And I'm not talking just big financial empires. I'm talking about great spiritual lives, right? Great family lives, great friendship lives. Like, those types of people, they can't help but not rub off on you. Like, you spend time with those people. And the opposite is true, by the way, as well. But you intentionally spend time with people who you want to mimic in every area of your life. Think bigger by finding big thinkers in every area of your life and just spend time with them and watch what starts to happen, the way that you think and the way that you act. I'm here because I started that podcast. Had I not, I never would have thought big enough to actually now be running a technology company that has the ability to scale to great levels.
- [25:35]
B
Yeah, I agree with that, too. And it is. You are the sum total of all the people you spend time with, because that's the information that you're bringing in. And so having intentfully seeking out those relationships and putting yourselves in those rooms and giving yourself permission to be that big is really key to getting to wherever you want to be going right now.
- [25:55]
C
Yeah, totally. You look at the opposite side again. There's a lot of stuff hitting the news right now about P. Diddy, and I don't want to go down that rabbit trail. That's a crazy one. But choose your friends wisely that very quickly you can either find yourself in a really bad spot or even just have your reputation marred because at one point you took a picture. Just be aware, right, that there's influences that elevate you and there's those that diminish you and that can harm you. And I think when we start to really be aware that is true, our lives can get significantly better very quickly as we put some intentionality into that.
- [26:28]
B
All right, I'm going to turn the time back over to you. Let the audience know how to find you and anything else you want us to know there. Justin.
- [26:35]
C
Thank you, Lizzie, Again, such a pleasure to be here with you. By the way, I've been so excited about this ever since you extended the invitation. I think the best way to connect, probably on Instagram, just sign me at justinstoddart. My last name is with a T. That's a great way to start a conversation. I would say if you are in the real estate or professional services space, you can go to proinsight.com to learn more. We have all kinds of information there that will help you learn more about us and about what we're offering. And from there you can actually directly from there, whether you message me through Instagram or through ProInsight, you can schedule some of my calendar to see how we might be able to help you if those if what I've shared is of interest to you. If you're in a completely unrelated industry, I think the upstream model will still be interesting to you. So you can find it on Audible, on Amazon are probably the easiest ways to find that. Anyway. Would love to just help however I can.
- [27:22]
B
Thanks everybody for joining me on this episode of the Millionaire Maker Show. If you are looking on how to generate more high quality leads with social, make sure you head over and grab my free guide@sellmorewithsocial.com this guide will guide you through my four step system on how to generate and close more high quality leads on social media. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of the Millionaire Maker Show. Cheers to you and your success.
- [27:50]
A
That's a wrap for today's episode of the Millionaire Maker Show. If you love this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share how you're leveling up your business. Want more? Connect with Lindsay Anderson and get the tools you need to cross goals at lindsaya.
- [28:10]
C
Com.
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A
Until next time, keep pushing, keep growing and turn those business dreams into reality.