Episode 299: Best of Series – “Dracula” by Bram Stoker, Ch. 12-17

Summary

The Literary Life Podcast

Episode 299: Best of Series – “Dracula” by Bram Stoker, Ch. 12-17

Hosts: Angelina Stanford, Thomas Banks, Cindy Rollins
Date: October 21, 2025

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Episode Overview

This “best of” episode is a lively, insightful deep-dive into Chapters 12-17 of Bram Stoker’s Dracula. Hosts Angelina, Thomas, and Cindy explore the novel’s interplay of ancient evil and Victorian modernity, the symbolism underlying the vampire myth, and what makes Dracula both a spiritual and literary milestone. They reflect on its mythic, fairy-tale structure, the contrast of good and evil, and the way Stoker consciously places an otherworldly horror into a recognizably modern world. With characteristic wit, references to literary criticism and biblical symbolism, and some behind-the-scenes anecdotes, the trio unpacks why Dracula stands out in gothic and modern literature alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Gothic Novel as Backlash Against Materialism

• Angelina introduces the episode with a reflection on the cultural context of the Gothic novel, arguing it’s “one part of a larger backlash against materialism,” paralleling modern society’s own hunger for spiritual transcendence amidst rationalism.

• Quote:

  “So the gothic novel was part of that, ironically enough, witch hunts and things get wrongly attributed to the Middle Ages... Witch hunts don't start in Europe until the Enlightenment, the Enlightenments was obsessed with witches. Also vampires, which is where I was going with this.”
  — Angelina Stanford [10:26]

• The horror and supernatural elements are not an invitation to darkness but a warning of real spiritual evil and the longing for transcendent reality.

2. Dracula: Not Just Another Horror Novel

• Many listeners expected a tale of moral ambiguity, but were surprised: “We have just this very clear fairy tale, black and white, good and evil.” [16:46]
• Angelina highlights a personal story about being forbidden to teach Dracula in Christian settings because of perceived darkness—yet, as she notes, the novel is “deeply Christian,” a battle “about good and evil and the quest to defeat Satan.”

  “If we can't talk about the reality of good versus evil without being afraid that we're somehow going to get lured over into the occult, if you can't talk to an 18 year old about that...this is the time to do it.”
  — Angelina Stanford [19:13]

3. The Modern World Invaded by Ancient Evil

• The hosts discuss the unique horror of Dracula being set not in medieval times but in the present-day world of the novel, filled with telegrams, trains, and typewriters.

• Quote:

  “Part of the horror here is the idea that this ancient evil is here right now in the modern world. And that's why he keeps rooting it in eternity. You can be on a subway and run into Dracula. I mean, that's brilliant.”
  — Angelina Stanford [24:50]

• Stoker is possibly the first to move the gothic monster “from the kind of world where the, you know, the feudal stages of history still have a kind of vestigial existence...into the modern world to terrorize it.” [25:21 — Thomas Banks]

4. Symbolism of True vs. False Woman/Mother

• In-depth discussion of biblical and fairy-tale imagery:
  • Lucy’s transformation into the “bloofer lady” symbolizes the false woman/mother—echoing biblical and fairy-tale motifs (Proverbs, Fairy Queen, Odysseus and Penelope).
  • The “bloofer lady” targeting children connects to the “false mother” trope in fairy tales, e.g., witches who wish to devour children.
• Quote:

  “So once Lucy is under the spell of the dragon, she becomes the false woman. In fact, in Revelation, it's the harlot riding a dragon.”
  — Angelina Stanford [44:52]

5. Van Helsing vs. Enlightenment Rationalism

• A long, pivotal speech pits Van Helsing’s openness to mystery against Dr. Seward’s scientific training.
• Notable quote:

  “It is the fault of our science that it wants to explain all. And if it explain not us, then it says there is nothing to explain.”
  — Van Helsing (Thomas Banks reading) [48:37]

6. The Undead as Anti-Christian, Anti-Life

• In examining Lucy’s vampiric state, Angelina explores the theme of “immortal undeath” as the antithesis to Christian resurrection:

  • “Where Christ gives life with his own body, with his own blood, Dracula is going to take people's life, take their blood.” [55:15]
  • Immortality under evil (undeath) is a curse, in contrast to death-as-mercy and resurrection.

• The use of stakes, crucifixes, and ritual killing is tied to the notion that the wooden stake “is supposed to be made of the wood of the cross of Christ.” [61:39]

7. Quest, Chivalry, and the Medieval Romance Structure

• The group of men—Arthur, Quincy, Seward, Jonathan—are paralleled to a “fellowship of knights” on a quest to defeat the dragon (Dracula).

  • Arthur’s symbolic namesake: “King Arthur leading his band of knights here on this quest.” [59:41]
  • The destruction of Lucy-as-vampire is her rescue by her “true bridegroom.”
  • Mina is contrasted as the “new woman, the future...they’re all turning to her.” [32:23]

• Mina’s role is practical, active, and intellectual—far from the Victorian “angel in the house.”

8. Modernity Meets Ancient Myth

• “Every time we say Narcissa Fry, every time she says Charlotte Mason, every time you say something witty and obscure, boom, I've got the mark.”
  — Angelina Stanford, on podcast "bingo cards" and running jokes. [06:03]

• The novel is rooted in its contemporary (to Stoker) present, but engages deeply with ancient myths, biblical typology, and fairy-tale logic.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the Gothic vs. Materialism:
  “You start to see this longing in our soul for transcendent reality coming out in really disordered ways when you don't give it a properly ordered way to come out.”
  — Angelina Stanford [10:26]

• On horror as warning, not temptation:
  “The gothic novel is not there to lure you or tempt you into darkness, but really to warn you about the reality of evil presences in the world.”
  — Angelina Stanford [14:43]

• On the role of Mina as "new woman":
  “She's independent... That's a kind of revolutionary thing.”
  — Angelina Stanford [37:38]

• Van Helsing’s Challenge to Science:
  “It is the fault of our science that it wants to explain all. And if it explain not us, then it says there is nothing to explain.”
  — Thomas Banks as Van Helsing [48:37]

• Lucy as Symbol:
  “She is freed by her true bridegroom, then from the, the false, the false bridegroom, the Antichrist. And as soon as they did it, she returns back to her true self.”
  — Angelina Stanford [63:39]

• The Quest Motif:
  “We have a fellowship of knights on their Quest to kill the dragon. And so then immediately, then this goes to Mina...the new woman. I just love this book so much. I love where he's going with this.”
  — Angelina Stanford [64:24]

• On Pity and Evil:
  “It's never pity to Sauron. The pity is that Gollum has been destroyed by this evil...it never takes the position that the evil he's doing is not evil.”
  — Angelina Stanford [68:01]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Introduction, Commonplace Quotes & Banter – 01:24 to 08:31
• Gothic & Materialism Discussion – 08:54 to 16:26
• Dracula as Christian Allegory and School Anecdote – 16:46 to 20:03
• Setting Dracula in the Modern World – 22:09 to 27:19
• Symbolism: True & False Woman, Bloofer Lady – 39:04 to 46:09
• Van Helsing's Speech on Science & Mysteries – 47:57 to 51:09
• Lucy’s Undeath and Anti-Christ Symbolism – 54:22 to 55:54
• Quest, Chivalry, and the Arthurian Motif – 59:41 to 64:24
• Modern vs. Ancient (Bingo cards, Mina’s character) – 06:03, 32:23, 64:24
• Final Reflections & Wrap-Up – 67:42 to end

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Tone, Style, and Running Jokes

• The trio’s tone is lively, thoughtful, and often humorous––balancing academic insight with accessible, sometimes tongue-in-cheek banter (e.g., on podcast “bingo cards” or the mythology of bats in hair).
• They frequently reference both high (literary criticism, theology) and pop-culture touchstones, blending close reading with anecdote.
• They return, repeatedly and with warmth, to the perennial Literary Life theme: stories are vital because “stories will save the world.”

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For Further Exploration

• Look for exploration of the quest/knight motif in upcoming chapters (“be looking for the quest, knights and chivalry and slaying the dragon. And you’re going to see it all come together...”) [70:33]
• Join the Patreon for rich, ongoing book discussions (patreon.com/theliterarylife).

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Closing Poem

Sonnet 71 by William Shakespeare [Read at 73:08 by Thomas Banks; not included here for brevity]

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This episode is essential listening for:

• Readers looking to delve deeper into the spiritual, mythic, and literary layers of Dracula.
• Anyone curious about the overlap of faith, literature, and cultural history.
• Fans of the “slow read” tradition and anyone who believes, with the hosts, that “stories will save the world.”

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Next Up: Chapters 18-22: Watch for increased quest imagery, knightly fellowship, and the collision of the medieval and modern in the continuing adventure to defeat Dracula.

Transcript

[Thomas Banks]

Welcome to the Literary Life Podcast. We've grown quite significantly since our debut in 2019, and we've had many requests to highlight older episodes that new listeners may have missed, as well as revisit listener favorites. To honor that request, I present to you this episode of the Best of the Literary Life podcast.

[Angelina Stanford]

This is not just another book chat podcast. Lifelong reader Cindy Rollins joins teachers Angelina Stanford and Thomas Banks for an ongoing conversation about the skill and art of reading. Well, explore the lost intellectual tradition and discover how to fully enter into the great works of literature. Learn what books mean while delighting in the sheer joy of imagination. Each week we will rescue story from the ivory tower and bring it to your couch, your kitchen and your commute. The Literary Life is for everyone because in the words of Stratford Caldecott, to be enchanted by story is to be granted a deeper insight into reality. Join us for an ever unfolding discussion of how stories will save the world. This is the Literary Life Podcast.

[Cindy Rollins]

Foreign.

[Angelina Stanford]

Welcome back to the Literary Life podcast. Today we will be covering chapters 12 through 17 in our ongoing series on Bram Stoker's Dracula. And with me. Well, he's not exactly the mighty figure of Thor, but he could pass if needed. Mr. Banks, how are you?

[Thomas Banks]

I'm well, that's kind of you, but I could never pass for. We'd have to pick some lower key Norse God. I don't think there are any, though. Yeah, my hammer throwing skills are probably not up to snuff.

[Cindy Rollins]

You just need some blonde tips or something, you know.

[Angelina Stanford]

And of course we have Cindy. I'm not Lucy. How dare you, Rollins.

[Cindy Rollins]

Okay, okay. She's not so bad after all.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, gang, I'm just loving this book. I'm so glad we're doing the podcast on this. I'm having such a great time reading this. Just absolutely delightful. And there seem to be an abundance of really good audiobooks available. I'm. I'm doing the multi. It's not a cast recording because they're reading it, but I'm doing the. The one with the, you know, Alan Cumming and Simon Vance, the whole thing. And I'm reading along while they're narrated in my ears. And it is absolutely fabulous. Very much enjoying.

[Cindy Rollins]

I had to actually put away the Gildart Jackson one. Not because he wasn't doing a good job, but for some reason the recording was corrupted and it kept skipping whole parts. So I got kind of stressed out about that and decided just to read. Read the book without the audio.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, I'm really enjoying it and I'm Glad to be here with you guys. Shall we turn our teacher? Let's get down to. I was gonna say down to brass tacks, but now I want to make a pun. Get your Van Helsing medical bag over here, and let's get to business. Mr. Banks, why don't you give us your commonplace quote before we jump in?

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, so, I mean, this past month, most of my reading has been regarding Henry VIII and the Tudors in some way, because I just did a webinar on that. This is a quotation from the English historian Milton Waldman from his book about that period. And he's describing Henry, and he says that he was one of that sort of not uncommon men who, when they want a thing, must feel that they are right in wanting it.

[Cindy Rollins]

Ah, we know that man. That dangerous man.

[Thomas Banks]

A dangerous man, indeed.

[Angelina Stanford]

Excellent. So I have to. I have to say that our Patreon members have been working on the official Lit Life podcast bingo cards. Those will be available for download soon. And they're having such a fun time coming up with the squares. And so I just immediately thought to myself that that was one of the squares. Cindy says something, you know, mysteriously attacking an unknown person. Oh, we know that man. So, yeah, we have a whole square for that.

[Cindy Rollins]

Oh, no, I did not think that's where you were going with that. So I thought you were going to say Thomas Banks as a snarky.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, there's a thing. Oh, well, they're coming up with a whole bunch of them and figuring out how to do a bingo card generator so that we'll get a different card each time.

[Thomas Banks]

I feel kind of embarrassed to admit this. I have no idea how to play bingo. And I'm a Catholic, and I have no idea how to play bingo.

[Cindy Rollins]

Don't worry. You're just not old enough.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, it sounds interesting, though, like, whenever you bring this up.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, it's not interesting at all. Wow. You don't know how to play bingo.

[Thomas Banks]

No.

[Angelina Stanford]

So you get a card. Wow. Ladies.

[Cindy Rollins]

His mother. And talk to her about this.

[Thomas Banks]

I think my mother's probably good at it, but I.

[Angelina Stanford]

This is not where we thought this episode was going to go. You get a card and they call. Spin the numbers, and they call it a number, and you put a marker on the card, and you have to get five in a row.

[Thomas Banks]

Okay. All right.

[Cindy Rollins]

But, like, if you're doing it for something fun, like a debate or a web thing, they put. They fill the squares instead of with numbers with, like, the host says this or.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's right. So they have made a big increase.

[Cindy Rollins]

Or, you know, if it's a debate, like I used to make debate cards for my kids and, you know, then they, they're paying attention to the debate, waiting to put down their little thing on he said, you know.

[Thomas Banks]

Okay.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes. So they have come up with a list of funny things about our podcast.

[Thomas Banks]

Okay.

[Angelina Stanford]

And that will be the bingo card. So every time we say the thing or do the thing, they'll mark the score.

[Thomas Banks]

I gotcha.

[Angelina Stanford]

So every time I say Narcissa Fry, every time she says Charlotte Mason, every time you say something witty and obscure, boom, I've got the mark.

[Thomas Banks]

I could cover the obscure anyway.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah. Okay, y' all have got to put self deprecating comment by Mr. Banks on there. Just put that as the center square. All right, Cindy, what do you have for us?

[Cindy Rollins]

All right, well, I went profound this week, so this will tell you where my brain is and maybe I'll give you a little backstory when I'm done. All right, this is a quote from Eugene Field. Wynken, Blinken, and Nod one night sailed off in a wooden shoe, Sailed on the river of crystal light into the sea of dew. Where are they going and what do they wish? The old moon Asked the three. We've come to fish for the herring fish that live in that beautiful sea. Nets of silver and gold have we cried. Wynken, Blinken and Nod. That is where my brain is this week. And that is my. Actually, it's one of my favorite poems and I did not quote it all, but I'm not at home. And so I went with memory.

[Angelina Stanford]

Cindy is being super grandma this week.

[Cindy Rollins]

Yeah, I just had the new grandbaby, so he is absolutely adorable. And I'm. But I'm babysitting the toddler, so I'm doing a long string of Gilbert and Sullivan songs and all kinds of crazy things this week.

[Angelina Stanford]

I. I feel like I need to tell our listeners here, we are actually recording this during nap time of these children that Cindy is babysitting.

[Thomas Banks]

And we should emphasize that you definitely should buy the Hallelujah book because again, Cindy has one more Christmas present she's going to have to buy every year.

[Angelina Stanford]

So.

[Cindy Rollins]

Yes, that's right.

[Thomas Banks]

Definitely.

[Angelina Stanford]

That is a great ratchet up those.

[Thomas Banks]

Hallelujah.

[Cindy Rollins]

We're up into the 30s until we lose a member or two.

[Angelina Stanford]

So if Cindy has to disappear suddenly from the podcast, we'll know that one of the babies woke up.

[Cindy Rollins]

Yeah, it is very precarious. So if I'm gone, if I get super quiet, it will Be because somebody needs their diaper changed.

[Angelina Stanford]

And it won't. Just to be clear, not me or Mr. Banks.

[Cindy Rollins]

Just.

[Angelina Stanford]

Just.

[Cindy Rollins]

I also. I just wanted to say my reading this week is. Is I'm. I'm emulating all the moms out there that tried to read in between taking care of babies. That's how I read these chapters this week. So you. Can I sympathize with you. I'm.

[Angelina Stanford]

Flashbacks to your earlier life.

[Cindy Rollins]

I was like, really? Was it this hard? No way.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, no, it is hard. I remember absolutely thinking my brain has turned to mush. I don't know how to think anymore. Like, I just. Oh, gosh, I remember those days. But, yeah, all I can say is they don't last. They really do go by.

[Cindy Rollins]

They're kicking my butt. But they're awesome. They're so adorable. They're just so cute.

[Angelina Stanford]

Chasing toddlers, Cindy, that's young people's work.

[Cindy Rollins]

Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah.

[Cindy Rollins]

All right.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, my quote is from a book about the Gothic novel. It's called the Gothic Flame. And just talking about some of the things we talked about with the Gothic novel, that you have the rise of the Gothic novel at the same time that you have the rise of materialism. And, you know, it's almost like the enlightenment had won the day by the time you have the Gothic novel come out. And, you know, what is real is that which you can see and taste and touch. And so the Gothic novel was really just one part of kind of a larger backlash against that. I think we see the same backlash in our culture today, actually. So the more that we are intense materialists, you know, and rationalists, and obviously, we don't believe things unless they're scientifically, factually provable. The backlash we see of that, of course, is psychic hotlines and horror films are incredibly popular. And a weird kind of vague, big spiritualism that doesn't seem to be connected to anything. That's all part of the backlash. And that all actually happened in the 19th century as well. You have the rise of spiritualism, Mr. Banks. Of course, you know about that. People having seances in their homes, actually.

[Thomas Banks]

That was starting to sort of hit its climax in popularity around this time lay Victorian. And actually, especially even after World War I, I think. I think a lot of people had lost someone and. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

So you start to see this longing in our soul for transcendent reality coming out in really disordered ways when you don't give it a properly ordered way to come out. And, of course, you know, Christianity struggled a great deal during The Enlightenment with denying the supernatural aspects. You have the rise of Deism, you have people like Thomas Jefferson cutting the miracles out of their Bible. So Christianity became one more like sort of rationable, a rational, respectable, you know, middle class values kind of thing. And you know, we don't talk too much about a resurrected body. Let's not be ridiculous. Let's just talk about Jesus's good moral teachings and, and that kind of thing. And so yeah, you have these, this, this backlash. So the gothic novel was part of that, ironically enough, witch hunts and things get, get wrongly attributed to the Middle Ages as if, you know, that dark period of superstition when they thought there was a witch under every rock. That's not actually true. Witch hunts don't start in Europe. Until the Enlightenment, the, the Enlightenments was obsessed with witches. Also vampires, which is where I was going with this. Vampires and magic in a way that the Middle Ages was not. So again, you see, when you don't give an opportunity for the properly ordered expression of these things, they do come out in a disordered way. Not that I think the gothic novel is disordered. The gothic novel of course, is an attempt to re establish the reality of dark supernatural forces and, and by extension, you know, good supernatur natural forces. And we, we talked about that last time. So the gothic novel is bringing back to our attention the fact that there is a cosmic battle of good and evil going on and things that are happening, that are real, that are outside of the material realm. So this is a, a quote about that that I thought is really applicable to what we've been talking about here with Dracula. During the period when the forces of Christianity were nearly spent and materialism had dislodged spiritual values, the gothic novelists plan their novels with an awareness of the deity and the consciousness of a just fate. The villains learn in due course that the wages of sin is death. Thought you'd like that.

[Thomas Banks]

That's striking.

[Cindy Rollins]

Yeah. So there's no sense that the gothic novel is trying to scare us into like go after the dark side of things or you know, not scarce, but draw us into it.

[Angelina Stanford]

Right? No, certainly not the gothic novel in its origins. I think that you see that kind of confusion in the way that we have horror films now. It's very easy to see people. You know, if I watch a scary movie about a Ouija board, I think, oh, well, that's symbolism of the fact that evil presences are all around us and we shouldn't play with them, but somebody else might go buy a Ouija board.

[Cindy Rollins]

So that's why you shouldn't read Harry Potter, right? Well, I mean, no, I'm not laughing. Let me, let me not just say I'm not laughing at people who didn't read Harry Potter. We didn't read Harry Potter when my kids were growing up. We have since read Harry Potter.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, but that's a valid point that you're bringing up because while I think the books of themselves are so deeply fairy tale magic and very much. I mean, you know, there's a giant dragon snake man, who's the villain in Harry Potter and they're on a quest to kill him. I mean it's this and it's just filled with medieval imagery and lore and it's very much this kind of fairy tale good versus evil that says I don't think the books themselves will do that. But that said, I. Well remember the Barnes and Noble displays during the height of Harry Potter's Harry Potter Potter's popularity for books of actual witchcraft and Ouija boards and all of that. I mean that, that wasn't in the world of the book, but definitely you saw that happening in marketing. You know, here's some tarot cards and.

[Cindy Rollins]

I think we talk about that a lot in the, our episode on pagan myths and why read pagan myths or witches? What?

[Angelina Stanford]

It was the magic episode.

[Cindy Rollins]

We did the magic episode.

[Angelina Stanford]

Right, yeah, right, but, but that was a good distinction you made. The gothic novel is not there to lure you or tempt you into darkness, but really to warn you about the reality of evil presences in the world. And I think that's one of the great things this book is doing is that we tend to think, you know, in our comfortable little homes where we feel safe and warm, that evil is. Evil is things like I don't have bread to put on the table, which is a real evil. I'm not mocking that, but in, in our day to day life, I think we sometimes can be tempted, especially in a very like industrial age, to forget the reality of spiritual evils and so.

[Thomas Banks]

And to seek out those, to seek some kind of experience with that almost kind of like a drug. There's a type of person, I don't think this is a necessarily a universally felt need, but I think there is a kind of person who seeks out supernatural encounters kind of as an opiate to get some kind of assurance that there's more than this world of three dimensions which we touch, see, taste and hear.

[Angelina Stanford]

No, I absolutely agree that. And, and that's. See, that's another connection. You do see the use of hallucinogenic drugs in following that same arc. So, you know, in the. At the end of the. The Enlightenment, you know, you see a lot of people taking drugs.

[Thomas Banks]

Actually, it's kind of interesting that the drug memoir and the Gothic novel are products of roughly the same time. Thomas de Quincey's Confessions of an English Opium eater is early 1800s. Yeah, that's a little bit after the Gothic novel debuts, but yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh. Oh, absolutely. So I think what this book does, it reminds us that even if you're not aware. No, I'm going to rephrase that. Especially if you're not aware of the reality of evil spiritual presence, it makes you more vulnerable to it.

[Thomas Banks]

Sure.

[Angelina Stanford]

And so I think that's what we're. That's what we're seeing in. In. In this book. So one of the things that's so fascinating to me before we jump in with these chapters, again, I can't praise our Patreon enough. They are just doing such a wonderful job reading this book and talking to each other about it. And, you know, if you're looking for more pointed conversation about this, I cannot recommend our Patreon, you know, more than I do at the $5 level. You can have access to the Forum and go through these books with. With a group of people who are really thoughtfully reading things. And so many people have said, this is not what I thought it was going to be. That, you know, I was expecting this. This horror. Obviously, we're very influenced by the horror movies we've seen, and you expect that. And here we have just this very clear fairy tale, black and white, good and evil. You know, in fact, I. I marked the line where Mina says, there is no pity and sympathy for this monster in chapter 17. And. And, you know, some people even told me that they found that refreshing because they've read so much modern monster fiction where the moral landscape is so confused, and it's been so refreshing. And so I have loved this book for a long time, but I have to tell you about y', all, this story. So the very first year I ever taught something, I taught AP English at a Christian school, and they allowed me to make my own reading list. And so I had this whole vision for the class, much like I still do. And I chose each book because that would teach us a different way to read. And I had taken that vampire class, and I was really pumped up about Dracula because I thought, this is going to be such a great book to teach about reading and symbols and metaphor. And so I put Dracula on The, on the reading list and I got called into the office and I was told that we were Christians and so we couldn't read Dracula. And I was just absolutely baffled. And I kept saying, no, I don't think you understand. And you'll see as we go through the rest of this book. This book is deeply Christian. I said, this is about good and evil and the quest to defeat Satan. And, and how do you defeat him? You defeat him with the things of the faith. And I'm making my case. And he just kept saying, but it's dark. It's so dark. I don't even know if he had ever even read it. Probably not, but he kept telling me it's so dark. And, and I remember my final plea was, this is a senior level high school class. These are 18 year olds in a few months are going to be out on their own. Like if, if we can't talk about the reality of good versus evil without being afraid that we're somehow going to get lured over into the occult, if you can't talk to an 18 year old about that, like, you know, this is the time to do it. We have to prepare them for when they're going to go out in the world. And I said, because, you know, college professors are going to be talking about this stuff, but they're not going to be talking about it in a Christian setting and framework. So I make my whole plea and this is what he says to me. He listens to me very carefully, he's quiet and he says, well, you don't have to stand in the trash can to teach about trash.

[Thomas Banks]

This again is a man who has never read the book.

[Cindy Rollins]

It's like you did not hear what I just said.

[Angelina Stanford]

No, I know, but you know, that was the world then. What year was this? This would have been 1993. Yes, this was 1993. And so people were still just very, very worried about anything supernatural. And here we are in this book and people reading it saying, oh my gosh, how refreshing is this that black and white, good and evil clearly, you know, delineated for us. And anyway, so yes, I'm glad we're redeeming this book. Sometimes if you hear me on the podcast, Rayleigh gets things and you're thinking, what is the context there? It's, it's almost always the context of my high school experience. And then later as an early homeschooler, all of the people who were just so afraid of coming anywhere near something that looked quote unquote, dark. And, and so I hope what we're seeing here is that we have entered the reality of darkness. But it's, the moral world is so clear. We're so clearly on the side of right. Evil is abhorrent, it's ugly, it's disgusting, it's horrifying, and we want nothing to do with it. They don't make evil attractive here at all. And, and so, you know, those are important distinctions. All right, well, I've chatted enough. Chapter 12. So we left on a cliffhanger last time. And chapter 12 brings us to the demise, well, to the quote unquote demise of Lucy. And, you know, I wrote in the margin that this is almost like a locked room mystery. We know they come out, they, they, they go into the locked house. All the windows are locked. They can't get in. They walk in, the servants are unconscious. You know, you've got a dead body and an almost dead person next to them. And what happened, Very mysterious.

[Thomas Banks]

Again, I mean, like I've said, I had not read this book in 20 years or something like that. I've forgotten how many parents we have dying in this book.

[Cindy Rollins]

Yeah, this whole section is just, yeah.

[Thomas Banks]

Just one after another.

[Angelina Stanford]

I, I, I think that's very metaphorically.

[Thomas Banks]

Is this a fairy tale or something? Like every mom is getting killed off in it at the, yeah.

[Cindy Rollins]

The other thing that hit me, if you want to take the section as a whole.

[Angelina Stanford]

Okay, go ahead.

[Cindy Rollins]

Is the scientific nature of how he's, he's really trying to make the case. It seems like that, you know, here we have these, like you said, the supernatural stuff going on. But, you know, he's trying to prove it scientifically. You know, he has these two bookends, the, the supernatural. And, you know, we're going through this in a very scientific manner. All our notes are in order. Everything is gathered scientifically.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, yeah, and so much technology was mentioned. Just like in one paragraph I marked like it was the underground, a telegraph. She's carrying her typewriter. Just so much, so much of that. And, but I like that. I like the idea that Van Helsing is showing not only how to rediscover the ancient things, the ancient things of faith to, to fight evil, but, but that you can also bring the instruments of the modern world into fighting evil. I'm not sure if I'm making sense. Sometimes I think people are tempted to think that I romanticize the past and, oh, we need to go back to the past. Well, no, we're never going to go back to the past. Here we are, right? And we're going to be who we are in this modern world, but hopefully we're going to take with us the wisdom of the past and then see how that applies to the world we're in right now. So I liked that. I liked the fact that he's, you know, well, Van Helsing is a foreigner, he's bilingual, so he's almost like standing between these two worlds. So he's giving her a blood transfusion. He's also using the crucifix. He's using everything at his disposal to fight this evil because it is an ancient evil, but it is an ancient evil that is also making use of the modern world.

[Cindy Rollins]

Sure, right.

[Thomas Banks]

Also newspapers, a pretty large part in this book. And, I mean, he didn't have to bring that in. I mean, there could have been other ways to, you know, inform us about the ship, for instance, or about the. Well, the children that are going to. You become. Become victims here. But, yeah, it's just the technologies and the. I guess you could say the sort of typical inventions. The inventions that typify the modern world are sort of reminding us of their present at every presence, at every turn.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's right.

[Cindy Rollins]

Yeah. He doesn't want us to forget and think this is some medieval tale. This is not. This is a modern tale.

[Angelina Stanford]

One of our listeners on the Facebook page said that this book was troubling her so much because she's English. But I think that's part of the point. Part of the horror here is the idea that this ancient evil is here right now in the modern world. And that's why he keeps rooting it in eternity. You can be on a subway and run into Dracula. I mean, that's brilliant.

[Cindy Rollins]

Yeah, I think that is brilliant that he moved the story from this, you know, fairy tale place to the real. The real place.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah. From the kind of world where the, you know, the feudal stages of history still have a kind of vestigial existence, you know, Romania or Transylvania, whatever. And by doing that, he sacrifices a lot of, I guess you could say, atmospheric possibilities, you know, the, you know, picturesque ruined castle that. I mean, we have our beginning there. But, yeah, moving. Moving his. His villain into the modern world to terrorize it is needs, I guess that presents a challenge to a writer. And that's. Yeah, I like that he does that.

[Angelina Stanford]

I don't know. I'm gonna just throw this out there. Is he the first guy to do that? I mean, Jane Austen kind of does it in Northanger Abbey, but she's making fun of it. Like, this is the Modern world. And so we don't have dungeons and lives putting up.

[Thomas Banks]

Well, here's. This is maybe not even a counter example. Frankenstein is set in the recognizably modern world, but it's still an exotic setting.

[Angelina Stanford]

Because it's so exotic.

[Thomas Banks]

Switzerland and, you know, the, you know.

[Angelina Stanford]

Older parts of Central does not use any modern technology. He's found these medieval science books.

[Thomas Banks]

That's right. He's found, like these esoteric.

[Angelina Stanford]

So it's sort of poetical. It's not at all. It's not about that. It's about something else.

[Thomas Banks]

And yeah, she definitely doesn't introduce, you know, steam power and all that sort of stuff.

[Angelina Stanford]

No, they're always wandering around writing poetry on the mountaintop. It's not. It's not like that at all.

[Thomas Banks]

I'm gonna say then, yes, this is. This kind of is. At least as far as I know. I. I've read precious little gothic literature, but when you can. I mean, comparatively. But yeah, he's doing something new.

[Angelina Stanford]

He is. And he sort of sets the standard then. Because I can just think of all of these horror films that use that same technique of people unwilling to believe some supernatural horror because we live in the modern world. Right.

[Thomas Banks]

There's some kind of. Some kind of raven and some kind of monster from, you know, way long ago who shouldn't be here now is here. Yeah, yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

So we also have in chapter 12, some. Some nice foreshadowing because Quincy tells us what happened to this blood. This reminds me of these vampire bats in Texas. And I had to kill this vampire bat and I had to lay. Oh, and he also. No, not that. Killed the vampire mat that he had to shoot the horse.

[Thomas Banks]

And let me guess. The vampire bats in Texas are bigger than any other vampire bat in the world. That's what that. I'm sure that's. I'm sure that's implied.

[Angelina Stanford]

It is implied because my note says actual vampire bats are super small and they are incapable of actually taking down a horse. But.

[Cindy Rollins]

But there are big bats.

[Thomas Banks]

What, like fruit bats and stuff?

[Cindy Rollins]

Yeah, yeah, the fruit bats. That's what I was thinking of.

[Angelina Stanford]

All right.

[Cindy Rollins]

I was very confused as a child about vampire bats.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, there you go.

[Cindy Rollins]

I really thought. When I found out there were vampire bats, it really. I questioned whether there were vampires. It was very confusing for me.

[Thomas Banks]

I love that the German word for bat is flugelmaus, I think, if I'm saying that right, which is flying mouse.

[Cindy Rollins]

Yes.

[Thomas Banks]

Makes him some kind of adorable. But I mean.

[Cindy Rollins]

No, no, no. Thomas, Thomas, Thomas.

[Angelina Stanford]

Speaking of word etymologies. I had a note talk about this in the first episode. I don't know that we did. Did we talk about what the Latin root for the word monster is? Did we talk about that?

[Thomas Banks]

So monster in Latin, monstrum.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, it's the verb to warn.

[Thomas Banks]

Monere. So, yeah, moner is to warn, to admonish.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, yeah. So I think that helps too, to. To kind of wrap your head around what's going on with these monsters in the gothic novel. They're a warning in some way.

[Cindy Rollins]

I just want to go back and rebuke Thomas for saying that mice were cute, so. And bats are not cute either.

[Thomas Banks]

I probably think too much in terms of, like, cartoon mice or something like that.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes.

[Cindy Rollins]

You've never had to deal. You've had a very civilized life. You don't know what it's like to be.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, I do not think bats are cute. So I've been to Austin and, you know, Austin, that has that thing.

[Cindy Rollins]

Yes, that's right.

[Angelina Stanford]

All those bats under the bridge. And I. I watched through a window when they did their, you know, their daily exit and they fly out almost, and it's terrible.

[Thomas Banks]

Was this when we were there for my brother's wedding?

[Angelina Stanford]

No, that was. I was there for a conference and I was in a hotel where the hotel windows overlooked the. It was like a point.

[Cindy Rollins]

The bridge.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, we all watched that because I think, like, at 5 o' clock they all fly in, and then another time they all fly out.

[Cindy Rollins]

I've always heard, and I mentioned this in mere motherhood, that you can. If your back gets in your hair, you have to shave your head because you can't get him out. So that was. Has been a terror for me. You know, we talk about my hair a lot on this podcast, but bats are a threat.

[Angelina Stanford]

Serious. I didn't know that.

[Cindy Rollins]

I don't know if it's true, but I've come through life with that understanding that if a bat gets in your hair, you can't untangle it.

[Angelina Stanford]

We're gonna have to pause the podcast so I can Google this. I gotta fact check. All right, the other. So we talked about last time that Quincy also gives his blood. So all of these men. Now the blood is the life. So all of these men are giving their life in some way to her. Now we'll have to get to the end till. See everything that Bram Stoker's doing.

[Cindy Rollins]

Yes.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, but, but, but this. They're. They're all devoted to her. And, you know, and obviously, you know, Dracula's taking her Blood. They're giving their blood. And I don't, you know, I don't, I don't think we're supposed to get really picky about. Well, you know, they probably killed her. That's probably why she died, because it's not the right kind of blood. And some people do read it like that. If you do, you are completely missing the spiritual battle that's going on. And, and, but at the same time, like I said last time, Bram Stoker is using the, the medical knowledge of the day. So he's, he's trying to be up to date at the same time that he's fighting. And so he's not intentionally saying something wrong.

[Cindy Rollins]

Really. She could not have gone wrong with any of her suitors. They were just all great guys.

[Angelina Stanford]

They were all great guys. All right, now speaking. You mentioned the dead guys, but we. So this is when Jonathan's boss, we find out in chapter 12, says, I don't have an heir, so you can be my heir. You can live here. And then, of course, he's going to die in the next chapter, just of old age. And, and so I was thinking about this. So you have Lord, Lord Godalming dying. You have this guy dying. This guy dying without an heir I think is symbolically important.

[Thomas Banks]

And do tell.

[Angelina Stanford]

I, I don't know that I have yet fully formulated my theory here, but Mina, we're told, is an orphan and mean, so. And Mina is also clearly the new woman. We'll talk more about that in these chapters, especially chapter 17. She's the new woman. And so I guess I'm kind of seeing this old England dying and the heir is this new woman.

[Thomas Banks]

I was considering also that all these parents or parent figures dying kind of allows Van Helsing to become a surrogate father to all the young people.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, that's certainly true too. That's certainly true too. Lord Godalming has to die so that Arthur can get the title. But I think Lucy's mother, I think she's just the angel of the house and is not able to really offer a protection against this threat. And I think that's why Mina contrasted as the new woman. And she is. I mean, she's not. This is not the angel in the house. She is not sitting around with her, wringing her hand. Someone save me. She is taking care of Jonathan. She is protecting Jonathan from too much knowledge. She is the help Meet Times a Thousand. I think this is where modern readers could get a little confused because I think we see her primarily in a helping the men role and we think that's some kind of old fashioned value. But no, no, no, this, this is the new woman who is using her mind and who's not a house ornament. And look how useful I am. And you guys can trust me and you guys can lean on me. They're all turning to her. I'm getting ahead of myself. But Van Helsing says you are the good woman that gives me hope about the future of the world and the children you're going to have. So there's just a lot of emphasis about she's the future while we see Lucy dying. So I, I think you've got all that going on there. We also see.

[Thomas Banks]

Did we already mentioned this? Sorry, but I, I was thinking that this is another first. I think in this book, the, the flirtatious girl who dies in the horror film who gets killed off first, that's is Lucy, the original, like pretty girl who gets knocked off.

[Angelina Stanford]

I don't really think that's what's going on. I'm gonna make my case.

[Thomas Banks]

Okay.

[Angelina Stanford]

I'm gonna make my case here. And it's hard for me to make the case, to be honest, because it's going to require so much backstory and I can't give it all here. But anybody listening to this who's taken my fairy tale class or anyone, even my middle school students are going to know exactly what I'm talking about. Because we get into this in such in depth. But I see what you're saying. I don't think that's what's going on here. However, that's the misunderstanding of that could be what leads us to the.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, I was thinking like this is, this is such an influential book that people telling a certain type of story kind of imitate it without knowing.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes.

[Thomas Banks]

Like the contrast of the smart girl versus the less smart girl who puts herself in harm's way sort of thing.

[Angelina Stanford]

They, they, they, they take the superficial trappings without understanding it. So there'll be some like, old guy, maybe he'll have garlic. But they, they don't get to the spiritual stuff at all. And the annotated edition I have has all the Bible verses. Like every time somebody opens their mouth, they're alluding to a Bible verse. Oh, we have to go through the bitter waters to get to the sweet. And just, you know so much biblical language through Van Helsing. He's setting it up in very much sacramental terms. All right, let's go ahead and fast forward. There's a few things in chapter 12, but we can go ahead and fast forward. The other thing I want to point out, though, is the. Is the foreshadowing of what's going to happen in chapter 16, which is that as she's becoming more like a vampire, she is becoming more voluptuous and seductive. And that. Arthur, oh, my love, come to me.

[Cindy Rollins]

And.

[Angelina Stanford]

And Helsing grabs him and then later tells him, in chapter 16, she would have. She would have bitten you. Not for your.

[Thomas Banks]

Throws him across the room.

[Angelina Stanford]

Across the room, that's right. So when we get to that other section, we'll come back to why I think we are seeing this. So she dies, and she's more beautiful in death than she was in life. And they say, well, this is the end. And he says, not so. Alas, not so. It is only the beginning. Yeah. All right, so Lucy has. Well, she doesn't die. She becomes undead, as we're going to find out in another chapter.

[Cindy Rollins]

And we just continue to have this comedy of errors where we try to protect her, but we fail.

[Angelina Stanford]

Exactly. So a few plot points happen in here, but the biggest thing I think is when Van Helsing. Oh, no, no. It's when Jonathan sees Dracula. I marked a lot of things here which clearly indicate Mina is not the angel in the house. So when she's walking and he's holding her by the arm as if she's like a schoolgirl, and she says, this is very improper for him to. To be walking with me like this. And then. But she says, but it's Jonathan. He's my husband. We didn't know anybody who saw us, and we didn't care if they did. That is not an angel of the house attitude, where caring what people see and think and. And maintaining propriety at all time is absolutely the most important thing. So she's independent and she, you know, I think that's a subtle comment that might be hard for a modern reader to catch, that that's a kind of revolutionary thing. That's an move, because we would just be like, well, she's with her husband. If her husband didn't care, why should she care? Well, because in the Victorian world, you care. You. You cared about. You cared a lot.

[Cindy Rollins]

And then I actually thought it was surprising that she decided. I really thought she would never read those documents. So I was surprised that she decided to do that. Of course, it's, you know, it plays into the story and it's the right.

[Angelina Stanford]

Thing to do, and because we see her wanting to be an active help. So this is not. This is a little Bit turning it on its head about, you know, damsel in distress and wringing her hands and rescue me. She wants to be part of the quest. She wants to be one of the knights. And so, you know, we see her. I typed it up in triplicate. Everybody's got a copy. And of course, what we're seeing here also is we're enough in the book now that we know the book we're reading is the typed document that Mina typed. And, and so the. The newspaper references and all the eyewitness accounts. That's part of Bram Stoker saying you this is a believable tale. This really did happen. Not that he's trying to pull it off as non fiction, but to press upon us this kind of thing could happen. This isn't a fanciful thing. So again, he's trying to root it, you know, in the science of the age, giving us these eyewitness accounts. So they see the Count, and he's grown young, and Count staring and kind of licking his lips at a girl he obviously wants to get. All right, Lucy dies. And now we have the incident of the blue fur lady. And this is also connected to the seductiveness. Yeah, well, let's see. I'm trying to decide which. I'll go ahead and talk about it.

[Cindy Rollins]

Well, you know, just real quick. With him inserting these realistic things, it reminded me of like that Hideous Strength and the Space Trilogy where Lewis inserts himself in the story as a way to kind of anchor it to reality.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes, yes. And the more fanciful it is, the more you have to do that. Yeah.

[Cindy Rollins]

But some people do get confused. Like in the very beginning of that, that he has strength. They're like, is he saying this is true?

[Angelina Stanford]

Or.

[Cindy Rollins]

Or perilandra like. No, he's not saying.

[Angelina Stanford]

People do get confused about that. Yes, it's true in the fictional sense. Right. It's the sort of thing that's a true story.

[Cindy Rollins]

Truth. It's a story of truth.

[Angelina Stanford]

Right. And that would be opposed to, say, a medieval dream story. Oh, he uses that in the Great Divorce that this didn't happen. This was a dream I had. Yes. You're nodding your yes, indeed. No one can hear that. Okay. All right. Well, let's talk about the bloofer lady and what's going on here? So bloofer is this. The kids are. Are saying beautiful lady. That this is probably a reference to Charles Dickens, our mutual friend. So she's somebody who's very, very beautiful and she's preying on these children.

[Thomas Banks]

That was one of the few moments where my edition of this book needed a footnote and didn't have one, it points out like the most ridiculously obvious things. It says that, for instance, it is. We are not told in the book of Genesis that the forbidden fruit was an apple. As though people have never noticed that before.

[Angelina Stanford]

But.

[Thomas Banks]

But yeah, I was. Yeah, I guess I assumed it was like some kind of mispronunciation because these are like lower class urchins or something like that.

[Angelina Stanford]

All right, a few different things are happening here. So we talked about, you know, the false woman and the true woman. We've mentioned this on the fantastic podcast. We've talked about it here, taking my fairy tale class. You've seen, you've heard me explain the big, big version. But you know, if you think about Proverbs, well, actually take the big, the big view. So in, in the scriptures you have the bride of Christ is the church. And the symbol of that then of course is the woman. And to bride and the pure bride and the faithful bride.

[Cindy Rollins]

And.

[Angelina Stanford]

And the opposite of that of course is the. The of Babylon, the great harlot. And so this image of the pure bride and the harlot metaphorically plays through the whole Bible. So the harlot, of course is the one who whores after other gods. So, so she's, she's spiritually unfaithful. And she is portrayed then in the harlot. And you see this in literature all over the place. Characters will be on a journey. And there's the trum. So Odysseus, there's the true woman at home, Penelope. He's supposed to get back to his true bride and all of these false women tempting him along the way.

[Thomas Banks]

Sir Gawain.

[Angelina Stanford]

Same thing with Sir Gawain. Yeah. So Calypso and Cersei and all, you know, he's got these, these temptations and he's got to learn to tell the difference between the true woman and the false woman. So this is all over stories. In the Middle Ages when you have the questing stories, you have, you know, in the Fairy Queen, you have Una. She's the true bride and she's pure. And then there's Duessa the witch, who is. Has the disguise of being the beautiful woman. And she's luring the Red Cross knight away from the tr. Bride and off the path.

[Thomas Banks]

And of course, and whose name essentially means double.

[Angelina Stanford]

Means double. Right. So you see this true woman, false woman thing over and over and over and it is a metaphor even in the book of Proverbs. You've got. You know, we think of Proverbs as a list of sayings, which it is, but it's also got somewhat of a narrative plot line. You start off with, you're on a journey and don't depart from the path. Do not depart the path. Do not walk in the way of the sinner. Stay in the way of the righteousness. Righteous. And so you're keeping. You're walking. And what's at the end of the book of Proverbs that you're walking to Lady Wisdom. And what is described in Proverbs as luring you off the harlot. Right. Do not go into the house of the harlot over and over.

[Thomas Banks]

His mouth is an open pit.

[Angelina Stanford]

His mouth isn't open, which is almost.

[Thomas Banks]

Kind of literally going.

[Angelina Stanford]

I was going, but nice job, Mr. Banks. We need a bingo square. For. He steals what I'm about to say. Yes, that's exactly right. So when her mouth is described as voluptuous and Arthur. Arthur and. And Van Helsing saying, if you kiss her, she will devour you. This is. This is. This is the picture of Proverbs. This is metaphorically what's going on. Now. The Freudians get nuts and they say things like, oh, well, you know, Bram Stoker hates female sexuality and blah, blah, blah. And I won't tell you all of that. That's just nonsense. The reason that she is so beautiful and so seductive is because that is exactly how the scriptures talk about temptation. It's sed you. It lures you. Do not leave the path of the righteous in pursuit of the harlot. She will devour you. Her mouth is a pit. And. And we see that perfectly here. So once Lucy is under the spell of the dragon, she becomes the false woman. In fact, in Revelation, it's the harlot riding a dragon. That is who. That's who Christ goes after. Same thing in the fairy queen. So she's. She's now become one of these vampire women. Him. And of course, when they return her in chapter 16 to. To her. Her sweet self, you know, she's delivered from that. So what. What's the deal with the kids? All right, well, there's a few different things going on here.

[Cindy Rollins]

This.

[Angelina Stanford]

She's being connected to the Lilith myth here. But if we can just bring it back to this false woman, true woman. In fairy tales. Because fairy tales are usually have children as the main character. The way the false woman, true woman, you know, dichotomy plays out, is the false mother. True mother. So, you know, you'll have evil stepmothers and you'll have wicked witches, but then you have very well godmothers to balance that out. And one of the consist. So again, right, what does the false woman do? Her mouth is a pit. She wants to eat you up. This is all metaphorical. Same thing then, with the false mothers. They want to eat you up. This is why wicked witches want to eat little children. This is why Snow White, White's stepmother, wants to eat her heart. They are metaphorically devouring their children. That is the picture of the false mother. And so here Lucy is both the false woman and the false mother. And that is why she is described as going after children. This is metaphorically, completely correct. So she's a vampire now and she's going after children.

[Cindy Rollins]

Yeah, I didn't catch that. I didn't understand the child thing because she wasn't a mother herself.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's right.

[Thomas Banks]

But she's become an anti.

[Angelina Stanford]

She's become the anti mother. That's exactly it. She's the anti mother and she's the anti, you know, the anti bride. And you're going to see how well Harker. Harker, sorry. See the words. How well Stoker plays all of this out. It's absolutely brilliant, him. So Van Helsing knows what's going on. I mean, as soon as she dies, he knows she's going to be undead.

[Cindy Rollins]

And.

[Angelina Stanford]

And they see the blooper lady and he's saying, oh, no, ma', am, there's too. It's too late. This is bad. Now, all of these chapters then are alternated between describing the bloofer lady attacking children. And then it alternates to Van Helsing with Mina. Blessed are you and blessed are your children.

[Cindy Rollins]

Right?

[Angelina Stanford]

You're the future. You're the mother. You see the contrast there between the true woman, the false woman. Mina is the future. Right. So right after the blooper woman, here he is. Oh, you've given me hope that there are good women still left to make life happy. Good women whose lives and whose truths may make good lesson for the children that are to be. So that's all going back and forth, the contrast of these two women. We also have some really interesting stuff here, though, in chapter 14, when Van Helsing has to convince Dr. Seward. So this is. This is such a fantastic series of speeches. This whole conversation is really about the limits of the Enlightenment. You're a doctor and I'm asking you to believe something unbelievable. But such. Such good things. How about, let's see, Mr. Banks, there's a lot of good things. How about you start here with your clever man and go all the way down to even Miss Lucy was by all means. Okay.

[Thomas Banks]

You are a clever man, friend John. You reason well and your wit is bold, but you are too prejudiced. You do not let your eyes see, nor your ears hear. And that which is outside your daily life is not of account to you. Do you not think that there are things which you cannot understand and yet which are? That some people see things that others cannot not? But there are things old and new which must not be. Which must not be contemplate by men's eyes because they know, or they think they know some things which other men have told them. Ah. It is the fault of our science that it wants to explain all. And if it explain not us, then it says there is nothing to explain.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh.

[Cindy Rollins]

Boom.

[Angelina Stanford]

Keep going.

[Thomas Banks]

And yes, Angelina underlined that. But yet we see around us every day the growth of new beliefs which think themselves new and which are yet but the old which pretend to be young. Young like the fine ladies at the opera. I suppose now you do not believe in corporeal transference? No. Nor in materialization? No. Nor astral bodies? No. Nor in the reading of thought? No. Nor in hypnotism? Yes, I said. Charcot has proved that pretty well. He smiled as he went on. Then you are satisfied as to it? Yes. And of course, then you understand how it acts and can follow the mind of the great Charcot. Alas. That he is no more into the very soul of the patient that he influenced? No. Then, friend John, am I to take it that you simply accept fact and are satisfied to let from premise to conclusion be a blank? No. Then tell me, for I am student of the brain, how you accept the hypnotism and reject the thought reading. Let me tell you, my friend, that there are things done today in electrical science which would have been deemed unholy by the very men who discovered electricity, who would themselves, not so long before, have been burned. As wizards were always mysteries in life. Why was it that Methuselah lived 900 years and old Parr 169 and yet that poor Lucy, with four men's blood in her poor veins, could not live even one day, for had she lived one more day, we could have saved her. Do you know that all the mystery of life. Do you know all the mystery of life and death? Do you know the altogether of comparative anatomy and can say wherefore the qualities of brutes are in some men and not in Others. Can you tell me why, when other spiders die small and soon, that one great spider lived for centuries in the tower of the old Spanish church and grew and grew till on descending he could drink the oil of all the church lamps? Can you tell me why in the pampas, I and elsewhere, there are bats that come out at night and open the veins of cattle and horses and suck dry their veins? How in some islands of the western seas, there are bats which hang on the trees all day. And those who have seen them describe as like giant nuts or pol pods. And that when the sailors sleep on the deck because that. Because it is hot, flit down on them and then. And then in the morning are found dead men, white as even Ms. Lucy was. Good God, Professor, I said, starting up, do you mean to tell me that Lucy was bitten by such a bat and that such a thing is here in London in the 19th century?

[Angelina Stanford]

So this whole great speech is all about Van Helsing telling Seward there are mysteries that science cannot explain, which is that. That is one of the great, great ideas that you see in horror films. Same idea there. And I love.

[Cindy Rollins]

Look.

[Angelina Stanford]

Look at his response. How could that thing be here in London in the present day?

[Thomas Banks]

We have telegraphs and such telling.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes, exactly. Can't. Then he says this. I want you to believe. Believe in what? To believe in things that you cannot. Let me illustrate. I heard once of an American who so defined faith, that faculty which enables us to believe things which we know to be untrue. For one. I follow that man.

[Thomas Banks]

My addition says that that is an allusion to a Mark Twain story.

[Angelina Stanford]

Okay, well, mine says that too. So this is going to be a question of belief. And in fact, even after he's going to have the whole experience with Lucy, when Van Helsing gives him the thing to read about what happened to Jonathan, he says, this is going to require your faith even after what you saw. So this repeatedly, that we struggle to believe the reality of these things. It's. It's going to be. It's going to be all the way through. All right, so now van Helsing in 15 is bringing him to see Lucy. And there's an empty coffin. And. And here we have the answer to the earlier episode of the Three Vampire Women. Why they were given a child. So remember that Dracula bought him a child because. Okay, see, they're false women. What did. This will make a lot more sense now. They are seductive in their behavior toward Jonathan. Of course, they are the false women. And they eat a baby. Of course they do. They're false. They're false mothers. But so in there, because remember, Dracula and Van Helsing are foils for each other there. Dracula brought the baby there. Here in this chapter, Van Helsing rescued, rescues a child. He's actually going to rescue two children. So we have that nice double there and he rescues her. So then they go back and they see her and she looks alive and she's even more beautiful. And then Van Helsing starts to explain that she's undead. And he even goes so far as to call it the curse of immortality. So I want to talk a little bit about this undead image because of course, course, tons of symbolism here as well. And to explain this, I'm going to explain it with Paradise Lost because I teach Paradise Lost and every time I reread it, I'm struck by the vampire imagery. And I am absolutely convinced that Satan in Paradise Lost is the literary. The literary model for the vampire. We have not yet met everything that Dracula can do, but we do know that he is a shape shifter and he's going to take a number of things. And one of the things you're going to see him doing is taking the form of a mist. And twice in Paradise Lost, Satan comes to Eve, who is lying there asleep, comes to her in a mist and comes over her. And then Adam kind of sees her bending over him. It's total vampire imagery.

[Thomas Banks]

Satan and Dracula also have in common the fact that they are. They invade worlds which seem impervious to any kind of threat of evil. I mean, to certain types of evil. Anyway. They are in both troublers of the garden, so to speak.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes. Okay, so what's going on with this undead? I hope we can see by now that the vampire figure as a Satan figure is in a lot of ways going to be described metaphorically as, as an Antichrist. So against Christ. It'll be the opposite of Christ. We've seen the Christ gives life with his own body, with his own blood. Dracula is going to take people's life, take their blood. There'd be some other things we're going to definitely want to keep our eyes on that are going to be coming up to, to illustrate this parody. This, this, you know, I don't mean parody.

[Thomas Banks]

He uses the word mockery. Yes, quite a few times, both with Lucy and with Dracula and. Yeah, that's. That's what the Antichrist is.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's right.

[Thomas Banks]

Actually think it's. I, I was looking up. I had forgotten about this. But if you've ever not seen this Renaissance painting do. It's wonderfully composed and really creepy. It's Lucas Signorelli's Antichrist with this figure that looks like Christ preaching to a crowd that has gathered around him. But you look at his face and there's something. There's something ogreish and. Yeah, a mockery about the face. So Signorelli's Antichrist, Christ. Highly recommended.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, very good.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

So, of course, one of the things that Christ is, He is the bridegroom and the church is his bride. And so we see Dracula is. Is always bringing these women under his power, these false women, right? Or coming to the dragon. And so this is what is happening to Lucy. And where Christ gives us immortality, Dracula offers immortal death. So they're. In death, you would be released from the powers of evil. But in undeath, you are forever, for all time, trapped in the power of evil. So it's not. It's not a life. It's immortal undeath. So you don't even get the release of death. And so one of the things that I think is going on here is in Paradise Lost, when Adam and Eve are being told by the angels, okay, you've fallen, and now you have to leave the garden. It is presented to them as a mercy, and that death is a mercy. And he says it's because if you now were to eat of the tree of Immortality, you would be trapped in the state of your fallen sin. It would be trapped in a state of death. So being pushed out of the garden, then, and then getting death ends up becoming a mercy. So they're going to die, which means that there is a limit to the effect of sin in our lives. All the evil in the world, it's not going to be able to hurt you forever. And you will die. You'll be released from that. And then, of course, through Christ, you will be ushered into immortal life, eternal life. So that I think that that idea is sort of behind the Dracula idea, the vampire, the. The eternal undeath, that it's as if you have eaten of the fruit of immortality, but in your fallen death state. And then Van Helsing talks about the fact that there's something a little bit different going on with Lucy because she was sleepwalking. So there seems to be this idea that there's something different about her situation because she was not a willing participant in it. And. And she was in a trance. And so he says, you know, so the way we're going to go about it is going to be a little bit different. But I Do think there is something to that about her not being a willing participant in this and that her sleepwalking again, if that's. If that's supposed to be a picture of how she's basically sleepwalking through life as the angel in the house. And that would make her susceptible to that particular evil. So she looks more alive. And of course now we're going to understand what's going to happen when they all go. So Van Helsing Blessing puts these guys and says, look, you've been devoted to her. So now you've got, you've got to finish it. We've got to release her. So this is so great because if you pay attention to the dates and I triple checked this, they go to her on what would have been her wedding day to Arthur. But now she's the bride of the dragon, right? And Arthur as the true husband has to rescue her from the dragon. So in this picture she's the damsel in distress, right? She's. You've got to slay the dragon and rescue the princess. And, and so her. Arthur, come to me. Come to me. That seduction scene, you understand what's happening now? She's not being his true bride, she's being the false bride. She's trying to lure him into death as well. Now we hadn't talked about this before, but his name is Arthur and that's a name that looms large in England. King Arthur is. Is King Arthur leading his band of knights here on this quest?

[Thomas Banks]

He's also the money. I mean he's also. He's the one man with the title. And with. Now he has an independent income to finance their vampire hunting activities.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yep, all of that.

[Thomas Banks]

I'd forgotten how convenient that was. That would be hard to do this on a limited budget.

[Angelina Stanford]

Now if we pay attention to the way she's described in chapter 16, we know for sure she's the falsehood lady. She had sunny blonde hair earlier and now she has dark hair. So she's become a dark lady with all the symbolism of that. Modern stories actually get this backwards because of our culture. We think of the blonde. That's right, Cindy. We think the blonde is the super hot one. And we think of the brunette as the plain Jane. But in the older world, literature is actually backwards. The. The blonde was just the ordinary girl next door.

[Cindy Rollins]

Vanilla girl.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's right. The nor, the. The dark haired girl is the one that's exotic. You know, I was in my class, I always say, think Selma Hayek, the hot. The hot spicy brunette. And so that person is much more associated with, with those, those kinds of over the top sexual, you know, seductiveness they don't have in older stories. You don't see blondes as being seductive there. That's, that's usually a picture of their innocence persons.

[Thomas Banks]

Katie Gerardo versus Grace Kelly and High Noon.

[Angelina Stanford]

Exactly. That's exactly. So she's got this smile that's diabolically sweet. Her voice is super seductive. Now of course this is true of vampires that everything about them is going to be over the top seductive because they're trying to seduce you into death. But so here she is and she's talking to him. Come, my husband, my husband. And he starts to go to her and Van Helsing holds up the crucifixion prefix. And then she becomes really hideous looking. And they see her as much more as a monster. And her hair is described here as Medusa's snakes.

[Thomas Banks]

Maybe something monstrous going on.

[Angelina Stanford]

Maybe something monstrous, but also something false woman there. All right, so let's see. We have all these descriptions about her being Nosferatu. And then we have them going in to release Lucy from eternal undeath. Release her from the control of Dracula. And so this is really her rescue. She has now been rescued that she can, she can, you know, die and have, you know, immortal life now that she is no longer under the, under the control of the dragon. So they've got their giant steak and don't worry, you don't have to cover your children's eyes. I promise not to say anything Freudian, but is a scene where the Freudians go for the low hanging fruit guy with a giant piece of wood. That's right, I said it. And it's ridiculous because that is not what's going on here at all. The, in vampire lore, the wooden stake is supposed to be made of the wood of the cross of Christ. So it has that religious imagery as well that, that, you know, in the description of him hammering that in. That's, that's like, that's supposed to be, we're supposed to be thinking of the cross and the crucifixion. You know, this is, this is the evil, this is the serpent being nailed to the cross kind of thing. So she is freed by her true bridegroom, then from the, the false, the false bridegroom, the Antichrist. And as soon as they did it, she returns back to her true self. And the air is sweet, the sun is shining, the birds sing. It seems as if all nature was tuned to a different pitch. That is the image of Harmony. So now the world has been back to harmony, but he is described. So he's Arthur. He's King Arthur. He's got a hammer in his hand and he's described as the mighty figure of Thor. And Thor of course has a divine hammer. So shout out to Marcina, who did some digging to find out what is the connection then between Thor and Arthur. Why, why the Thor reference? So Godalming in old English means of godhound. And the Godalming Hundred, which is in the southwest part of present day Surrey county in England has a town called Thursley, which was.

[Thomas Banks]

Oh my gosh.

[Angelina Stanford]

Which is the site of the pagan worship of the God Thor. Nearby is Hammer Pond and Thor's stone, which was said to be created by a thunderbolt from Thor.

[Thomas Banks]

Okay, that was, that was one for the Guinness Books right there. That was.

[Angelina Stanford]

Who did that? Marcina.

[Thomas Banks]

Wow.

[Cindy Rollins]

I kept thinking I should look that name up, but I did.

[Thomas Banks]

I kept thinking that too. I was like, that's such a weird name. I probably doesn't mean anything. And then moved on.

[Angelina Stanford]

Blame it on the toddlers in this mythic way, right? So he's, he's, he's like a God with his divine hammer here to knock out this evil. And my favorite part though is at the end of 16, they say it's over. And he's. Van Helsing says it's not over. We have rescued the princess us, but we have to kill the dragon. And he uses the words quest. And now I can tell you that this story is a medieval romance and they're on a quest to kill a dragon. And a medieval romance always has a fellowship of knights, just like the Fellowship of the Ring, a fellowship of knights who are devoted in the service of a lady to the. The taking of this quest. And so in the next chapter you see all of again, it's a parallel to these three men were madly in love with Lucy, now they're madly devoted to Min, but in this very non romantic way she really, she's kind of maternal to them. So they're all devoted to her. And now they're going to go on this quest to kill the dragon. Now one of the things we'll notice as we go is how much these guys are going to be described as knights and in chivalry and. Which is why I've been keeping this under my hat, but laughing so much about the fact that we have a cowboy of a cowboy in here because a cowboy is America's knight. So we have a fellowship of knights on their Quest to kill the dragon. And so then immediately, then this goes to Mina. So, so setting it up as this medieval night thing. And these knights are going to go out and, and kill this dragon. And then immediately we've got typewriters, telegrams, the underground train stations, the new woman. I just love this book so much. I love where he's going with this. And so Mina wants to be an active part of this, this quest. She does not want to be protected from things. She, in fact, in so many ways she has been protecting Jonathan, which is the opposite of the angel in the house. So the angel in the house sees the woman as the spiritual center of the home. But you. Mina is not being described this way at all. She's practical, she's hands on. Here's here, I, I put this out in triplicate. Every, Everybody's got a, got a, got a case file now a dossier. You know, she's like a FBI profiler over here. This is, this is not the angel in the house. This is a woman who wants to be a help. She wants to be useful. And of course they're all impressed with her. And they all then declare their devotion. We have two different scenes of men crying to her and being very vulnerable. And she's not a romantic entrance here because she's, of course, married to Jonathan. So now they're putting it together. Holy cow. Dracula's next door. How did we not see this coming? And then they put it all together. Let's see if there was anything else I wanted to mention. Well, after she read, she listens to the account of Lucy's second death and she says, that is just it. This thing, capital T, is not human, not even beast. To read Dr. Seward's account of poor Lucy's death and what followed is enough to dry up the springs of pity in one's heart. And again, so this would be a difference than you'd see in a modern book, which would make him human, would make him pitiable and sympathetic.

[Thomas Banks]

But here, you know, he's, he'd have a troubled childhood.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes. And of course, that's one of the things the movie does when we get to our movie episode, is they give him a sympathetic backstory.

[Cindy Rollins]

But it's such a relief. You feel so relieved when she says this. It's, it really, really brings a sense of rightness to the book.

[Angelina Stanford]

Absolutely, absolutely. I, I was thinking a bit about the Lord of the Rings because, you know, he, he does a lot of this same stuff and, and the pity of Bilbo toward Gollum ends up being a hugely important thing, both plot wise and, you know, thematically. But it's never pity to Sauron. Right. The pity is that Gollum has been destroyed by this evil. You know, this. The Ring has this power over him, and that's why he's to be pitied that he has been destroyed by evil. But it. It never takes the position that the evil he's doing is not evil. They're just focused on the greater evil. Kill. He'll Sauron, and then the power of the ring will be gone. And so I think there might be a parallel here, even to kind of pitying Lucy, but while. While despising Dracula.

[Cindy Rollins]

Let's see.

[Angelina Stanford]

So they. They've rescued her. It's a death, but it is a rescue. He. He has not gotten her as part of his. His harem here. All right, well, that's. I think that's everything I wanted to say. That was a lot. I don't like the episodes where I have to do all the talking. I feel like I don't let y' all talk without. There you go. Anybody.

[Cindy Rollins]

That's okay. My brain is genuinely fried this week, so it was good to listen to all that.

[Thomas Banks]

I'm pretty worn out too, but this is a good episode.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, we wish everyone a very happy Thanksgiving when this episode airs. I hope you'd listen to us while you're making pumpkin pies and apple pies and Turkey. Turkey.

[Thomas Banks]

And.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, forgive me for the. For the slight even allusion to the Freudians, but I just. I had to say. No, no, no. If you go for that and think that this is a story about men being afraid of, you know, seductive women, you're missing the much bigger and the much more important.

[Cindy Rollins]

I wish they were afraid of them a little more. Bingo.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, that's. That's like C.S. lewis's style snark in. In his essay against Freudian psychoanalysis, Psychoanalytic criticism, he said the whole basis of Freud's theory is that people are so ashamed and embarrassed of their sexual urges that they can only speak about them in code. And he says, says, have you met people who. Who are. Who are these people who are so afraid and ashamed of their designers?

[Thomas Banks]

Supposedly Freud himself was a very kind of prudish man, like, who was very. What, buttoned up? I guess.

[Angelina Stanford]

So he just rejected him?

[Thomas Banks]

Maybe he was projected. I don't know. I don't know.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, I mean, but. But I think, you know, if. If Lewis can say, who are all these. Who are these people who are ashamed? How Much more today, right? No, no one's. This, this. The whole Freudian thing just sort of collapses. We're not speaking in code because we're ashamed, like you said, Cindy. If only we were. All right, well, we hope you guys have a great Thanksgiving again. Shout out to our Patreon, who is just killing it. And if you're interested, you go to the literary. No. So patreon.com backslash the literary life. I should write these things down. You can join at the five dollar level and have access to the forum and listen. There's not just great conversations happening about whatever book we're reading on the podcast, but they are also on their own, working their way their way through Boethius. And I think they're about to start Augustine's Confessions and they're just jumping into all these medieval works. And our forum even has a video call feature. And so they go on there and they read it out loud together with each other and work through and they've got a variety of schedules for the different pacings. And I'm just so proud of you guys. I'm just proud of you guys. I go on there and I say, I think, oh, look at them. This is amazing. So I'm really proud if you guys want to be a part of that, that you can be. So next week we will cover chapters 18 through 22. And as we go all through these chapters, I want you guys to be looking for the quest, knights and chivalry and slaying the dragon. And you're going to see it all come together while it's still very. It's going to, it's going to be really medieval, but it's going to be super rooted in the modern world, in the world of technology. It's going to be absolutely fantastic. Stick around to the end. Mr. Banks has got a special poem for. So until next time, guys, happy Thanksgiving and keep crafting your literary life, because stories will save the world. Thank you for listening to the Literary Life podcast brought to you by our loyal Patreon sponsors. Visit how HouseOfHumaneLetters.com to find Angelina and Thomas and to sign up for our newsletter with podcast schedules and more. And keep up with [e-mail] Join the Conversation at our member only Patreon forum or our Facebook discussion group. Visit patreon.com theliterarylife to find out how you can sponsor this podcast and get great bonus content. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review and check out our sister podcasts. The new Mason jar and the well read poem. And now for a poem read by poet Thomas Banks.

[Thomas Banks]

Sonnet 71 by William Shakespeare. No longer mourn for me when I am dead. Then you shall hear the surly sullen bell give warning to the world that I am fled from this vile world with vilest worms to dwell. Nay, if you read this line, Remember not the hand that written For I love you so that I in your sweet thoughts would be forgot, if thinking on me then should make you woe. O, if I say you look upon this verse when I perhaps compounded am with clay, do not so much as my poor name rehearse, but let your love, even with my life decay, Lest the wise world should look into your moan and mock you with me after I am gone.