The Literary Life Podcast

Episode 313: The Tower and the Ruin with Dr. Michael Drout
Originally aired: January 27, 2026
Host(s): Angelina Stanford, Thomas Banks
Guest: Dr. Michael Drout, Professor at Wheaton College, author of The Tower and the Ruin: J.R.R. Tolkien’s Creation

Overview

This episode features an in-depth interview with Dr. Michael Drout, renowned medievalist and Tolkien scholar, celebrating the release of his new book, The Tower and the Ruin: J.R.R. Tolkien’s Creation. Hosts Angelina Stanford and Thomas Banks guide a lively discussion through Drout’s teaching, his perspectives on Tolkien, the creation and reception of the new book, and the enduring significance of Tolkien’s works. The conversation explores the intellectual tradition underpinning great literature, literary criticism, and the emotional experiences entwined with reading and writing.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Dr. Drout & His Teaching Philosophy

• Drout’s Unique Teaching Style:

  • Started developing courses on Vikings and Old Norse because students gravitated toward these topics (06:42).
  • Teaches comprehensive courses covering medieval and Old Norse literature, including the challenging Njal's Saga, which is rarely tackled in undergraduate settings.
  • Noted that his classes have a multi-generational range, from 11 up to 87 years old (10:22), emphasizing accessibility for all learners.

• On Why the Old Norse is Hard:

  • Old Norse is more challenging than Anglo Saxon—less direct connection to modern English and more complex inflections (11:10).
  • Early exposure to these languages is invaluable for eventual mastery and true engagement with ancient texts.

2. The “Commonplace Quotes” Segment

• Thomas Banks: Shares a quote about Thomas Macauley from Arthur Bryant:

  “He had been so long buried in books that he had almost forgotten the earth around him.” (13:00)

• Angelina Stanford: Shares a quote from Drout’s lectures on why tradition matters in literary interpretation:

  “You don’t read ever just the words on the page, because the only way you know what the words mean is how they refer to other things and other words in a network of meaning spread throughout a culture.” — Dr. Michael Drout (15:21)

• Dr. Drout: Reflects on the idea of ruin and memory as central to Tolkien’s works:

  “A ruin preserves the memory of what has been, at the cost of making it impossible not to recognize the permanence of the loss. This melancholy, a longing for the unrecoverable past, is the dominant emotion in all of Tolkien's works, an important reason why they affect readers so strongly.” — Dr. Michael Drout (18:50)

3. The Tower and the Ruin – Creation, Reception, and Themes

• Writing and Reception:

  • Drout was surprised and humbled by the book’s popular and critical reception, especially noting it is rare for academic works to hit #1 on Amazon’s criticism charts (21:36).
  • The book’s cover and promotion were handled with unusual enthusiasm for academia, leading to “Spotted in the Wild” reactions from readers.

• Facing Academia’s Tolkien Bias:

  • 25 years ago, being a “Tolkien scholar” was career poison; now, post-Peter Jackson films, it’s a boon (36:13).
  • Popularity in culture forced academia to confront and eventually embrace Tolkien.

• On Literary Elitism and Realism:

  • Drout and hosts discuss the old academic prejudice that “realism” is the highest literary genre while fantasy is considered lesser (45:09).
  • Realism, Drout argues, is a convention, just like any other genre:

    “Realism is narrative art, and it's no more realistic than literature that follows a different set of conventions.” (45:09)

4. Structure and Aim of the Book

• Audience:

  • Written for intelligent readers who love Tolkien, not just academics.
  • Intentionally avoids academic jargon in favor of accessibility without dumbing down original insights (28:50).

• Method & Memoir:

  • Drout structures the book as a hybrid, using his own lived experience to model what it means to have a “literary experience” (61:28).
  • Emphasizes honest engagement with literature, inspired by both the strengths and flaws of New Criticism (17:37).

• Dividing the Book: Creation & Reception

  • The first half explores how Tolkien created Middle-Earth, and the second half investigates how readers receive and experience Tolkien’s work (61:28).
  • Drout describes Tolkien’s stylistic “grain,” a term borrowed from Roland Barthes:

    “It has a grain like wood grain… Tolkien’s work is… full of little things that might be thought of as imperfections that make it feel more true.” (61:28)

5. Patterns, Atmosphere, and Literary Conventions

• Tolkien’s Authentic Worlds:

  • The “heavy sentences” of Tolkien—described by Angelina—are unpacked as an intentional literary weight and density, a deliberate creation of history and atmosphere (65:43).
  • Drout compares Tolkien’s method to building a “house” rather than a “soundstage”—with unseen infrastructure (“pipes and electrical conduit”) that give a sense of solidity to the invented world (67:04).

• On Realism & Conventions

  • Realism is a literary convention like any other—what matters is the rules for narrative, not “realistic” details (45:09).
  • Quotes and discusses On Fairy Stories and how Tolkien’s work funnels Escape, Recovery, and Consolation.

6. Critical and Popular Reception of Tolkien

• Early Reviews – Myths and Surprises:

  • Contrary to legend, many initial reviews of The Lord of the Rings were positive, and only a vocal minority in academia dismissed it as lowbrow (72:01).
  • Shift in perception occurred with the rise of Tolkien fandom in youth and countercultures.

• Publishing History:

  • Tolkien's initial contract with Allen & Unwin was financially extraordinary—because they thought the work was important art, not because they foresaw its immense popularity (76:10).

7. Consolation, Grief, and Literary Experience in Tolkien

• Not Sentimental, Not Simple:

  • The bittersweet tone of Tolkien is central; stories of consolation are about bearing grief with hope, not escaping pain completely:

    “I thought that was what I was going to say when I started to write it. … I don’t feel better. But I can handle it.” (80:00) “What he keeps showing is that beauty can come out of catastrophe… the real hope in Lord of the Rings… They can't conquer forever.” (80:00–82:00)

  • Drout connects this theme to his own painful losses, underscoring the deeply personal yet universal resonance of Tolkien’s blend of melancholy and hope.

• Personal Anecdotes as Universal Models:

  • Angelina points out that Drout’s stories of being read Tolkien as a child, reading to his children, and finally enduring personal grief all become models for how literature can console and shape us (79:02, 88:16).
  • The last chapter, built around a serendipitous rediscovery of the folk tale The Black Bull of Norway as referenced in On Fairy Stories, provides a moving articulation of true literary hope and what it means to endure (88:16).

8. Practical Advice for Reading Tolkien Aloud

• Tips for Parents and Teachers:
  • Don’t worry about young children understanding every plot or nuance; let the story “wash over them”—they will feel it even before understanding it (99:46).
  • Take time with read-alouds; children may not seem moved at first, but moments will deepen on repeated readings and as they age.
  • Drout’s whimsical advice: “If you're going to do voices, think it through, because you're stuck with it for a long time!” (99:46)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Literary Tradition:

  “Nothing makes sense separated from the tradition of reading. Reading itself makes no sense separated from the Tradition.”
  — Dr. Michael Drout (17:26)

• On Consolation & Hope:

  “He just hoped he could get to that place—not a place where there's no tears, but where the tears are not bitter.”
  — Dr. Michael Drout (85:38)

• On Literary Experience:

  “The personal anecdotes end up being sort of a model of how a person reads.... what you're supposed to have when you read is a literary experience.”
  — Angelina Stanford (61:28)

• On Tolkien’s Unique Achievement:

  “The thing that's special about Tolkien... is it has a grain, like wood grain… the little things that might be thought of as imperfections that make it feel more true.”
  — Dr. Michael Drout (61:28)

• On Writing for General Audiences:

  “I think there's a lot of smart people who care about language and literature and culture and feel alienated from the whole... jargon filled discourse. And it doesn't need to be that way.”
  — Dr. Michael Drout (28:50)

• On Escape, Recovery, and Consolation:

  “I really reflected on this afterwards and I think you did accomplish what you tried to. I think that the personal anecdotes end up being sort of a model of how a person reads... what you're supposed to have when you read is a literary experience.”
  — Angelina Stanford (61:28)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [06:42] – Drout describes his Norse and Viking course: its origins, content, and appeal.
• [13:00] – “Commonplace Quotes” segment, with selections from history, Drout’s own lectures, and his book.
• [18:50] – Drout’s central thesis on ruins, longing, and loss in Tolkien.
• [28:50] – The intended audience for The Tower and the Ruin and its approachability.
• [36:13] – How Tolkien’s reputation in literary academia shifted drastically over recent decades.
• [45:09] – In-depth discussion of “realism” as a literary convention and Tolkien’s textual authenticity.
• [61:28] – Structural approach to the book; emphasis on literary “grain” and personal connection to reading.
• [67:04] – The solidity (“house vs. soundstage”) metaphor for Tolkien’s world-building.
• [72:01] – Fresh historical research on the early reviews of The Lord of the Rings (more positive than thought).
• [80:00–82:00] – Tolkien’s method of consolation in storytelling; the power of hope in grief.
• [88:16] – How a serendipitous moment with On Fairy Stories led to the finishing of the book’s final chapter.
• [99:46] – Practical tips for reading Tolkien aloud to children and the enduring power of orality.

Summary Takeaways

• Drout’s book bridges academic insight and literary passion, showing how Tolkien’s melancholy, rootedness in tradition, and formal patterns achieve their profound emotional effects.
• The conversation offers a vital corrective to the old hierarchy that favored realism over fantasy, demonstrating Tolkien’s “realness” through literary craftsmanship and moral vision.
• Drout’s vulnerability—sharing both intellectual process and personal grief—renders the theory of consolation both moving and practical. Hope, in Tolkien and in The Tower and the Ruin, is found not in denial of pain but in its endurance and transformation.
• On a practical note, every reader, young or old, can enter the world of Tolkien through being read to—absorption first, understanding later.

For Further Discussion

• The Tower and the Ruin is available wherever books are sold; audiobook narrated by Dr. Drout.
• Dr. Drout’s Viking & Old Norse courses (and future offerings) available via HouseOfHumaneLetters.com.
• Literary Life Podcast will revisit Tolkien’s On Fairy Stories in upcoming episodes—prompting listeners to (re)read in preparation for rich new discussions.

“Joy beyond the walls of this world, poignant as grief.”
— Tolkien (quoted with feeling multiple times in the episode)

End of Summary