← The Little Shaman: On Narcissists & Toxic Personalities
The Little Shaman: On Narcissists & Toxic Personalities
Episode 268: The Narcissist & You: A Perfect Storm
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Hey everybody, it's Shaman Sister Sin, and you're listening to the Meditations and More podcast here on thelittleshaman.com brought to you by Trans Relational Healing, shamanspiritcenter.com and littleshaman.org that's me, the little shaman. Today, I wanted to talk to you about something that is often not understood regarding relationships with narcissists, and that is that in many ways, these relationships truly are the perfect storm. Relationships with narcissists are based on a shared fantasy. Even if people don't realize that you are in love with a fantasy image of the narcissist and of yourself that they make tangible for you, they are in love with the fantasy image of you and of themselves that you make tangible for them both. People in these relationships are seeing idealized versions of themselves during the good times and devalued images of themselves during times when things are not good, whether good or bad. None of these images are real, which is what we mean by fantasy. The entire relationship is a fictionalized interaction between alternating idealized or devalued images based on an overall reality narrative that was created by the narcissist. Roles, identities, events, and everything else are interpreted along the lines of that narrative. That reality, what actually happened or who anybody actually is does not matter at all. Who you see the narcissist as in the relationship is not real, either good or bad, because this person is not really anybody. Who you see yourself as in the relationship is not real. It's a projection based on your own and the narcissist's idealized or devalued image of who you are as a person and in the relationship. Who the narcissist sees you as in the relationship is not real because they're not capable of seeing you realistically or as something that exists outside of how you relate to them. Who they see themselves as is not real. It's a projection based on the narcissist's own and your own idealized or devalued image of who they are. Who you are together then is subsequently not real either. Nor is the narrative of the relationship, whatever that might be. This goes for any relationship, no matter what it is. Romantic, platonic, family, it's all the same. Pathologically, narcissistic people do not see other people as they really are, and they cannot see themselves at all because of this. All of their relationships are fantasies, no matter what. They pretty much have to be, since narcissists are not real people in the true sense of how this phrase is used. What they show you is not real. And because they genuinely do not see the reality of situations, whatever they think they see is not real either. You have undoubtedly seen this for yourself in your interactions with this person. It's there during idealization periods of the relationship, too. But it is very obvious during devaluation periods. During idealization periods, when people are seen in an unreasonably, unrealistically positive way, even as perfect. Maybe this is no less of a fantasy than during the devaluation periods where people are seen in an unreasonably, unrealistically negative way. Idealization just feels good. And because of that, it is often not recognized as harmful or bad. The narcissist's idealized image of a person may also line up with that person's idealized image of themselves. And when that happens, people often feel like they're finally being seen for who they really are. Nothing could be further from the truth in reality, but in the moment, this can be extremely intoxicating. In reality, the narcissist is not seeing you for who you really are. They are, in point of fact, not seeing you at all. But because it feels so good and lines up so closely with who someone wants to be or believes they already are, it can be very difficult for people to see that the devaluation period is easier to recognize as harmful because, first of all, it's painful. But also because the bad things that narcissists accuse people of are often so outside of the person's character that people can see relatively quickly that this is just nonsense. It hurts. But that's why it hurts, because it's not true. It's so extreme that most people recognize it as untrue pretty quickly. They know it's false. And for someone to think that of them is painful, though the devaluation period is experienced as more painful than the love bombing and idealization. These are two sides of the same coin. They actually work together. Because the devaluation is as devastating as it is in part because of the idealization. If you were never put up on a pedestal, you could never fall off of it because you were. You can. And in the case of narcissistic abuse, the fall is very far indeed from prized treasure to discarded trash in 10 seconds, from Soulmate to cellmate, and you might have no idea at all of why. The shared fantasy and its components are one of the biggest conditions that helps to create the perfect storm in narcissistic relationships. And a very powerful condition it is. The ego is very involved in this, and it is extremely difficult to simply walk away from what feels like an almost realized ideal self or relationship. It's often one of the hardest things many of us will ever try to do. The fantasy further entrenches dynamics that are very common in these relationships, such as dependency rescue narratives and dynamics, toxic hope that love is going to somehow make the relationship improve, and conditional love, where people learn to associate validation and love with their ability to tolerate toxic behavior. It also reinforces emotional blackmail, loss of self, emotional burnout, giving without balance, and much more. Another condition that helps create the perfect storm here is projection, both yours and theirs. Projection feeds into the shared fantasy and is also fed by the shared fantasy, making a self perpetuating cycle that can be extremely difficult to escape, partly because often people just can't see it. Everyone exists in their own paradigm to a degree, meaning a world made up of our own perceptions and perspectives and patterns and beliefs and all of the things that we know. To that end, everybody understands and interprets the world through their paradigm. Because of this, we are very often engaging in projection because we're assuming things about other people based on our personal paradigm. This projection is not usually harmful. On the contrary, it's often helpful, even necessary, to facilitate understanding and empathy. I have felt sad. I know what sad feels like. I was sad in this or some kind of similar situation. And I know that you have feelings too. So that that means you are probably sad now that you're in this same or similar situation too. Or I have had things like that said to me and I didn't like it. Most people don't. So I won't say that thing to you right now because you're probably not going to like it either. Through this sort of basic projection, we understand and communicate with each other. However, projection has limits. Basic projection is essential for empathy, but too much projection creates an opposite effect. Empathy is seeing how other people feel. Projection is seeing how we feel. If we project too much onto another person, we are not seeing how they feel. We are seeing how we feel. This creates misunderstandings and misinterpretations. For example, pathologically, narcissistic personalities tend to confuse projection with empathy. They read their own feelings and their own mindsets into a situation. Then they assign these things to the other person and believe that they are seeing how the other person feels. They're not. The reality is they are seeing their own stuff. That is what they're feeling. But because they lack empathy and the ability to differentiate the self from external objects, such as other People, they cannot tell the difference. We often see the same thing happening the other way from people toward narcissists, although it's the opposite. For example, a narcissist might say something like, I have no empathy, or I don't know how to love other people, or I think something is wrong with me because I don't seem to feel the way that others people do. This is actually more common than you might think. And people very often try to argue or dismiss these kind of comments, saying stuff like, oh, I'm sure that's not true, or I think you just have a hard time with such and such. This happens not just because the narcissist has attempted to portray that they have these qualities, but largely because also, people simply cannot believe that this is true because it's not true for them. They're speaking from their paradigm, and in their paradigm, that's how most people are. Most people are like them. This is unfortunately a very dangerous and costly mistake. People tend to think of bad guys a certain way, and if someone does not appear to fit into that mold, people might dismiss the possibility that it could apply, but it can. And an insistence on seeing what isn't there is one of the things that contributes to people becoming ensnared in these situations. It's very dangerous in relationships with narcissists. These dynamics create a perfect storm of projection, wherein you are projecting things onto the narcissist and they are projecting things onto you. They are typically projecting negative things onto you based on their own paradigms, such as malicious motives, jealousy, anger, hatred, envy. And you are typically projecting positive things onto them based on yours, such as empathy, compassion, love, remorse, understanding. This tends to culminate in a very unfortunate situation where people dealing with narcissists are judging and trying to understand the narcissist through their own paradigm, and the narcissist is judging and trying to understand people through their own paradigm, and everybody ends up with exactly the opposite conclusions about each other. You end up believing you see good things in the narcissist that are not there, and they end up believing they see bad things in you that are not there. This is also because narcissists tend to have a negativity bias where they give more weight and focus more on things that are bad. Because of this dynamic where you see good things and they see bad things, they are given endless chances to understand, and you are forced to defend yourself nonstop. Both people are seeing each other based on who they are, not who the other person actually is, and it becomes A situation where neither person is really seeing the reality of the other person or the relationship at all. This is where we say, whether good or bad, no matter what, the entire relationship is a fantasy. You believe you're dealing with someone who's like you. They believe they're dealing with someone who's like them. You're both wrong. This is important for people to understand, because while it might be somewhat easier to understand that the narcissist is seeing you incorrectly, many people don't realize that they are actually doing the same thing. In point of fact, there is no one here to see. You are seeing an idealized or devalued image of a ghost, filled in by your own paradigm and brought to life by your belief in it. The dynamic in this situation can become one of both parties constantly alternating between offense and defense. People are often forced to defend themselves continuously while they are also trying to convince the narcissist that they are the bad one or the wrong one, or the one with the problem. Narcissists also feel like they must defend themselves, and they are also trying to convince you that you are the bad one or the wrong one, or the one with the problem. In what has got to be some of the most horrific irony ever conceived of, both people in these situations are doing the exact same thing in this regard, and both are equally convinced that they're the one in the right. The relationship can become like shadow boxing, where every move you make is countered by the exact same move done for what's considered to be the exact same reason by the other person. And nothing ever lands on them because there's no one there to actually hit. It's just a trick of the light making it look like you have a real opponent. Here you are essentially fighting yourself in your own projections, no matter how it looks, because you're the only real person in this fight. The other person is a shadow, a ghost in a very real way. They are a figment of the imagination. Theirs, yours, both of you together. It's impossible to engage with that. This is extremely frustrating for people. It often becomes a situation where everything you try to call attention to every issue you try to resolve, every single thing you say, the narcissist says that that's what you're doing to them, or it's ignored, or it's otherwise turned around somehow. There's nowhere to go with this, and there's no way to resolve the issue or exit the conflict gracefully. Because once the narcissist feels that they had to defend themselves even once it's over. Once they are engaged in the battle, it's all out war to the bitter end unless they just simply exit the situation completely. All you can do in these situations is just take the loss and try to learn from it. There's no amount of energy you can spend that's going to undo this and nothing you can do to change it. It is what it is. That's not to say you shouldn't seek justice or that we should just roll over and allow people to mistreat us. Of course, far from it means we need to understand what we're dealing with here so that we can allocate our energy to where it will be the most effective and stop wasting it on things that don't work. Dealing with narcissists in any capacity does not work. There's no secret trick, there's no special code to crack. It just doesn't work and no amount of intelligence or skill at manipulation helps. It is what it is. Virtually all manipulation is designed to take advantage of people's trust. Since narcissists don't trust anyone and are in fact pathologically distrustful, even paranoid, manipulating them is not really a viable option, especially long term. It's very difficult to sneak up on someone who has eyes in the back of their head, if you see what I'm saying there. We need to save our energy for ourselves. And for what does work? Voluntarily spending it on narcissists in any way is a waste. It's ultimate risk for zero return. The relationship with any narcissist is a perfect storm in many contexts. Giver and taker, rescuer and needy person, energy, battery and energy, vampire, wounded and wounded, caretaker and care required. But none are perhaps so insidious as those we've listed here, where your literal nature works against you. And for the abuser in a very real way. It's a match made in hell. A horrific perfect fit. The good news is though, the more we heal, the more we do the work, the more we learn, the less of a perfect fit it becomes. After a while it doesn't fit at all. The conditions for the perfect storm fall apart and good riddance to them. We have all had enough of the rain. You can weather the storm and come out stronger. You can weather the storm and come out whole. They can't break you. You are always you. And even if you lose touch with that for a time, nobody can ever take that away. I hope this clears a few things up for you. As always, I look forward to your comments, questions and suggestions. So Please keep those coming. I take appointments online, over the phone, via text, via messenger, via email, and through Skype and Zoom for clients worldwide. So if you are interested in speaking with me one on one, you can visit littleshaman.org to do that. I have several books in publication so if you're interested in picking up a copy of any or all of those, you can visit littleshaman.org to do that or find them on Amazon.com I teach workshops, seminars and clinics so if you're interested in seeing what we are running this month, you can visit littleshaman.org to do that. And if you're interested in joining our support group with access to exclusive content, weekly support meetings and more, you can visit littleshaman.org to do that as well. You have been listening to the Meditations and More podcast here on the little shaman.com brought to you by trans relational healing shamanspiritcenter.com ilived withamonster.com and littleshaman.org that's me little Shaman. May the Great Spirit bless you. Have a beautiful day.