Sweethearts & Heroes: Fighting Youth Suicide and Hopelessness

Summary

Podcast Summary

Living Your Legacy with Rudy Mawer

Episode: Sweethearts & Heroes: Fighting Youth Suicide and Hopelessness
Guest: Thomas Murphy (Founder of Sweethearts & Heroes)
Release Date: January 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

This deeply moving episode centers on the youth mental health crisis—particularly rising rates of suicide and hopelessness among young people—and spotlights the work of Thomas Murphy, founder of Sweethearts & Heroes. Murphy discusses the roots of the epidemic, the essential human needs for meaning and connection, and shares the methods his organization uses to foster hope, empathy, and resilience in schools across the country. Listeners are walked through real-life stories, statistics, and practical solutions, all delivered with candor and compassion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Crisis: Hopelessness and Youth Suicide

• Startling statistics highlight the problem:

  • “3041 high schoolers attempt every day in this country, but it's not slowing down, Rudy. It's getting more and more difficult for young people.” (A, 00:00)
  • “Now we know that the suicide rate with young people in middle schoolers alone have tripled since 2007.” (A, 03:37)
  • “You isolate a human for three days, there's measurable amounts of brain damage.” (A, 09:44)

• Murphy recounts the formative moment that led to his mission:

  • He describes watching the livestream suicide of 12-year-old Caitlyn Nicole Davis, which convinced him:
    • “We're at war with this thing called hopelessness.” (A, 02:42 and again at 00:00)

The Roots of the Crisis

• Hopelessness isn’t caused by one thing; it’s a “Swiss cheese effect:”

  • “It's never one thing, man. It's the feeling of hopelessness that you can't get out of.” (A, 05:06)
  • “Behavior is a form of communication. The kid's telling us something… That kid's name was Dan. Dan took his own life.” (A, 05:13)

• Two universal human needs emerge as key causes:

  • 1. Meaning / Purpose / Significance
    • “If you have some kind of meaning in your life, some kind of reason, you can go through anything.” (A, 08:10)
    • Referencing Viktor Frankl and Nietzsche’s idea: “He who has a why to live can bear any how.” (A, 07:58)
  • 2. Acceptance / Belonging
    • “Every kid wants to fit in. Every kid wants to belong. It's ancient circuitry that we have.” (A, 09:44)
    • “When a kid doesn't feel like they fit in, they belong, it always leads a young person to this feeling of hopelessness.” (A, 09:51)

Modern Pressures: Technology and Parenting

• Social media’s impact is addressed:

  • “Kids are saying, who am I? What's my meaning in this, in this hyper reality that we live in?” (A, 08:10)
  • Jonathan Haidt’s book “The Anxious Generation” is cited as addressing this issue. (A, 07:08; 16:33)

• Parental roles and generational responsibility:

  • Murphy lays blame at the feet of his own Generation X:
    • “Who created this mess? ...You did this to them? You can't blame a kid for… all these kids in their phones...You put it in their hands.” (A, 16:22)
    • “I'm. I have a huge theory on what's really happened. It's really Generation X. It's our fault. We created this mess.” (A, 15:13)

• The coddling of children and declining resilience:

  • “That's a big discussion around resiliency and the lack of resiliency.” (A, 13:38)
  • “We've robbed kids of that.” (A, 14:34)

Solutions: The Work of Sweethearts & Heroes

1. Circle – Rebuilding Empathy Through Listening & Community

• “Circle is probably the most important work that we do.” (A, 00:43)

• An ancient practice: sitting in a circle, one person speaks and others listen.

  • “That's the foundational root of empathy, is perspective taking, list listening to someone else. We don't do a good job of that anymore.” (A, 00:46)
  • “When you're in circle, you have to listen to people because you're not allowed to talk.” (A, 18:54)

• Transformative moments in circle:

  • Murphy shares a moving story of a fourth grader comforting another during a circle session, each grappling with deep pain and loss—the essence of empathy in action.
    • “He holds this other little boy next to him...this fourth grade boy watched his father commit suicide in front of him. That cat was the only thing that regulated his emotions.” (A, 19:35)

2. Play – Restoring Fun, Learning, and Emotional Regulation

• “Play is the essence of learning. It's where, you know, you don't need anything but play to learn.” (A, 21:22)
• The “bully drill” (sociodramatic play):
  • Students re-enact real moments of bullying, teaching empathy and how to take action.
  • High schoolers are trained to teach younger students, fostering multi-age, compassionate communities.
  • “We train high schoolers how to construct these bully drills to do circle. And we do it age mixed.” (A, 22:18)

3. Hope in Action – Becoming Sweethearts & Heroes

• Each person has the capacity to give hope:
  • Murphy’s partner Rick, a war veteran severely injured in combat, finds hope in a simple act of kindness from a child in a restaurant, showing hope and acceptance are life-saving.
    • “That little girl didn't know she had hope inside of her. I got chills thinking about that… She took this big bucket of hope, she dumped it all over him, changed his life forever.” (A, 11:33)
  • “We believe, we know that every single person has that hope inside of them.” (A, 10:55)

4. Practicality – The Limits of Policy and the Power of Practice

• Taking phones away is “putting the genie back in the bottle”—what’s needed is repetitive, real-life practice of empathy and action, not just policy tweaks.
  • “You're not putting that one back in the bottle, buddy.” (A, 17:05)
  • “Education is about spaced, repetitive practice and so is every other human skill.” (A, 23:10)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the epidemic of hopelessness:

  • “We're at war with this thing called hopelessness.” —Tom Murphy (A, 00:00)
  • “It's not over until I win.” —(Show catchphrase, 01:11)

• On empathy and circle:

  • “That's the foundational root of empathy, is perspective taking, list listening to someone else. We don't do a good job of that anymore.” —Tom Murphy (A, 00:46)
  • “When you're in circle, you have to listen to people because you're not allowed to talk.” —Tom Murphy (A, 18:54)

• On generational responsibility:

  • “Who created this mess? ...You did this to them? You can't blame a kid for… all these kids in their phones...You put it in their hands.” —Tom Murphy (A, 16:22)

• On legacy and youth empowerment:

  • “I want to create more sweethearts and heroes in our young people. They are the solution. We say our kids are the future. That's a lie. They're not the future, they're our present.” —Tom Murphy (A, 24:05)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | Key Moment/Topic |
|-----------|---------|------------------|
| 00:00 | Opening Statement | The crisis: “We're at war with hopelessness.” |
| 02:42 | Murphy’s Mission | Inspired by youth suicides, personal story of encountering a live-streamed suicide | | 05:06 | Underlying Causes | It’s not “one thing”—the Swiss cheese effect and story of Dan | | 08:10 | Key Needs | Meaning and acceptance as universal keys to mental health |
| 13:38 | Resilience Debate | How coddling and environment have changed youth resiliency | | 16:22 | Generational Blame | Gen X responsibility for the current situation | | 17:54 | What Sweethearts & Heroes Does | Practical breakdown: assemblies, circles, bully drills | | 19:35 | Empathy in Action | The story of the fourth grader in circle | | 21:22 | Importance of Play | Play as the fundamental mode of learning and healing | | 22:18 | Teaching Empathy | The bully drill and multi-age programs | | 24:05 | On Legacy | Youth as the present, not just the future |

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Tone and Language

Murphy is candid, compassionate, and at times blunt—calling out generational cycles, societal failings, but always returning to hope, action, and the capacity for change. The stories are raw, but solutions are practical and empowering.

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Summary Takeaways

• Hopelessness among youth is reaching crisis levels, driven by loss of meaning and belonging.
• The solution isn’t in policy but in cultural and relational practices: empathy, community, and play.
• Every person can become a bearer of hope—a “sweetheart and a hero.”
• Real legacy lies in empowering youth to heal and transform the present, not just the future.

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“We say our kids are the future. That's a lie. They're not the future, they're our present.”—Tom Murphy (24:05)

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Transcript

[A]

We're at war with this thing called hopelessness. 3041 high schoolers attempt every day in this country, but it's not slowing down, Rudy. It's getting more and more difficult for young people. It's never been harder to be a young person than in the world today. And what are we doing about it? It's a clip, it's a news flash, and then we move on. You know, it's not one thing, man, it's the feeling of hopelessness that you can't get out of. Thomas Murphy is a dynamic, purpose driven and influential leader, transforming lives through education and youth development. As the founder of Sweethearts and Heroes, he' he's built a national movement dedicated to combating hopelessness and equipping people with empathy, courage, and the belief that hope holds on because possibilities exist.

[B]

What is it that you're doing to help battle that?

[A]

Circle is probably the most important work that we do. And when you're in circle, you have to listen to people because you're not allowed to talk. A hundred thousand years ago, your ancestors sat in circle and one person started to talk. Everybody else would lean forward and they would listen, listen. That's the foundational root of empathy, is perspective taking, list listening to someone else. We don't do a good job of that anymore.

[B]

What you want to be known for?

[A]

I don't want to be known, Rhodey. I want to create more sweethearts and heroes and our young people, they are the solution. We say our kids are the future. That's a lie. They're not the future. They're our present. It spans the globe like a super highest cold Internet Elvis Pres. Today, Apple is going to reinvent the phone. It's not over until I win. The Living youg Legacy podcast. For those who live to leave a legacy that's extraordinary. The impossible has happened. Oh, that is sensational. Jordan, Open Chicago with the lead. You said Paul is the fastest man on the planet. You can live your dream.

[B]

Hello. Welcome back to another episode of Legacy Maker. Sat here today with Tom and he's on a big mission, a big mission to change the lives of pretty much every person on the planet. And we're really going to dive into the epic stuff he's doing. He helps impact over a million students and 100 plus schools a year. And he's been doing that for many, many years. Spoke at some of the most prestigious places on the planet and taught his, you know, leadership and everything he's going to dive into today. So very excited to have him here. And he's, yeah, got a big mission. Like I said, I'll save it for him. Tom, welcome.

[A]

Thank you, Rudy.

[B]

So we're at war with something you told me a second ago. I want you to explain it and break it down. I didn't want to take it, so go ahead and let's start there. What are we at war with?

[A]

I think it's probably better to tell you how I stumbled on this. You know, I found myself talking to young people after a crazy little reality TV show I did, and a buddy of mine called me kind of in a panic and said, hey, Tom, I'm in trouble. Had this speaker in the. In bullying, but was supposed to be here. 900 middle schoolers said, can you come and. And do something on bullying? And I'm like, I guess so. So I came up with this silly little concept called sweethearts and heroes, which is a big concept. But after I did that, another school heard about it and said, hey, can you do that at our school? And it just kind of snowballed, and I didn't realize what was happening. But at the end of assemblies, I'd find myself turning the lights off, packing up my stuff, and a young person would always sneak back in the room and want to talk to me about what was going on in their life, their challenges that they were having. I started to understand that what they were feeling was a certain amount of hopelessness with what was going on in their life. And hope for us has always been, hold on, possibilities exist. They were struggling with holding on to the possibilities for their future. And this was 16 years ago. And now we know that the suicide rate with young people in middle schoolers alone have tripled since 2007. 3,041 high schoolers attempt every day in this country. Wow. And I think the thing that hit me, the story that I was kind of alluding to initially, was as this work started to unfold, a buddy of mine, I was driving with my daughter. She just turned 16, had my ear buds in. She's 27 today. And my buddy sends me a. A. A video link and says, hey, man, you got to watch this right now. And I said, okay, what is it? And it's a young lady named Caitlyn Nicole Davis from Cedartown, Georgia, and she live streams her suicide. I remember him telling me that. And I looked over my daughter, who was just a couple years old, and I. And I said to him on the phone, I said, I'll never watch that. And he said to me, he said, tom, we're at war. He said, we're at war with this thing called hopelessness. And I watched it. Very, very difficult, very challenging to watch 45 minutes of a 12 year old doing the unthinkable. But it's not slowing down, Rudy. It's getting more and more difficult for young people. It's never been harder to be a young person than in the world today. And that's the war that we're in. So people think that, you know, when I, when I say that, it sounds a little sensational, but we're losing our young people at a rate that planet Earth has never seen before. And what are we doing about it? It's a clip, it's a news flash, and then we move on.

[B]

Yeah, so let's let the one stat stuck out at me. What was it? 3141.

[A]

3,041 high scores, 3,400, 3,300, 3,041 high.

[B]

Schools at every 41 every day.

[A]

What's.

[B]

What, what are the main buckets that are causing that?

[A]

What, what a conversation that is. You know, Malcolm Gladwell talks about this Swiss cheese effect, you know, when in his great book Outliers talks about the holes having to line up. It's never one thing. Yeah, you know, it's not bullying. I mean, we know that there's a direct correlation between depression and suicide, but it takes, sometimes it takes a bunch of things for a young person to make that decision. You know, you might be a kid who's, you know, sleeping on his dad's girlfriend's trailer couch. The two middle school girls that are in that trailer are making life hell for you. Your dad says to you, when you're 18, you're out of here, pal. You bring a knife to school and, you know, the school sends, you know, catches you and suspends you and throws you out of school. And the teachers all share emails that say, you know, I knew this kid was going to do something like this. But behavior is a form of communication. The kid's telling us something. That kid's name was Dan. Dan took his own life. My partner Rick has his slipknot bracelet today. You know, it's not one thing, man. It's the feeling of hopelessness that you can't get out of.

[B]

But is that compounding a bigger picture from parental and family upbringing? Social media now you're saying more now than ever, is social media having a big impact on that? Like what's changed to increase those numbers?

[A]

That's a Jonathan Haidt's new book. The anxious generation tries to Attempt to answer that on the social media side, I'll tell you, there's common threads that weave between all of us. And what are the two things that connect all of us? Number one, some kind of meaning, some kind of purpose, some kind of significance. When you look at why 22 service members end their own lives every day in this country, that's one of the greatest battles that they have. You know, you go away to war, you come back. My partner, Rick, I mean, if you look at him, he was a 25 year old when he got blown up. 70% of his body was instantly taken from him. He was a leader, he was a soldier, you know, gone. What do you do if you have no ears, no nose, one leg, and your hands are melted together the next day? Now, that's an extreme example, but that common thread, you know, it was Frederick Nietzsche that said he was a why to live can bear any how. Those are some old fancy words. But what he was trying to tell us was if you have some kind of meaning in your life, some kind of reason, you can go through anything.

[B]

Anything.

[A]

You know, you look at those kids that have single moms, sure, she can go through anything because she's got the greatest meaning in the world, the kid. We have a generation, this is number one, that is struggling more and more in the most technologically advanced civilization Earth has ever known. Kids are saying, who am I? What's my meaning in this, in this hyper reality that we live in? Like, who am I? They just go from thing to thing to thing. And you ask any 15 year old today, what do you want to do? I don't know.

[B]

Well, it's almost like, I mean, you go to a buffet and there's 50 plates, it's hard to pick. Whereas 50 years ago you got meat and potatoes every day for dinner. There's never a question of what are you going to eat tonight? Or did you go to a buffet or go on Uber eats?

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Spend an hour looking.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

For 300 options. So I imagine that's a cascading effect, but. And what about. I want to ask one last question. You know, how much does. Obviously the upbringing and parenting has got to be a common thread too, in this. Or not.

[A]

Maybe that's a huge conversation. I talk to parents every day, but I need to take one step back because I gave you the first one. Because that feeling of meaning or significance always leads someone to a feeling of hopelessness. But the other common thread that every single person in this room shares, you and I share every person. You know, it's this feeling of human acceptance. You know, we're pack animals.

[B]

So the desire to have.

[A]

To have relationship, to have relationship. I mean, you think about it, Rudy. I mean, you did some really stupid things when you were younger for one reason and one reason only for your friends.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, right. Every kid wants to fit in. Every kid wants to belong. It's ancient circuitry that we have this prestige bias, this conformity bias that we just all have. And so when a kid doesn't feel like they fit in, they belong. It always leads a young person to this feeling of hopelessness. And anyone that says, I'm not a pack animal, I'm a lone wolf, that's not true. You can't make it, man. You isolate a human for three days, there's measurable amounts of brain damage. So if you take these two common threads that we share, this need for significance, meaning, purpose, and this deep desire we have for human acceptance, it leads kids to this feeling of hopelessness. So I would say if you. If people say to me, like, what are the common threads? There's a whole bunch of other things that young people, that kid Dan and I can give you a thousand other stories of other struggles, but those are the two big ones.

[B]

Okay, I love that. So. So, yeah, that's a good way to kind of condense it there. I understand. There's so many variables, so let's transition now, right? These are the two big. Two big variables, or link backs. What is it that you're doing to help battle that?

[A]

Sure. Well, you know, when you look at a young person who's struggling, the one thing that they're struggling with is that hopelessness. So they need hope. And if you think every time you struggled in life, someone came into your life and gave you that hope that they were carrying with them. And we believe, we know that every single person has that hope inside of them. If my partner Rick was here right now, he'd tell you the most beautiful story. You know, he was. I'll give you the very short, condensed version of this one because it's a. It's. It's a showstopper. He gets out of the hospital, a year out of into recovery, right? He looks like a monster. Every kid's running from him, literally in public, right? He goes to this restaurant with his brother in San Antonio where he was doing his recovery for three years, Sits down at a table, little girl across the room with her grandpa. And grandpa says, go say hi to him. Go Say hi to him. Grandpa forces her. She gets about halfway over, looks at Rick, and he says, hi, how you doing? She turns around, right back to her grandpa. That's going to be his life. No kid's ever going to accept him. She gets back to her grandpa and she looks at him and she says, grandpa, he's really nice. Changed everything. That little girl didn't know she had hope inside of her. I got chills thinking about that, and I've heard that a thousand times. That little girl had no idea she had that hope inside of her that she could give to him. She took this big bucket of hope, she dumped it all over him, changed his life forever. At that moment, he knew he could be accepted. There was hope, the possibility that things would change for him. Same thing happened to you on a different level. We all get blown up on the inside at some point in our life. But every time you were struggling, someone came into your life and they gave you that hope that you needed. And that's the original definition of this bully, this 16th century bully. When the word was invented in the beginning of the 16th century, it meant sweetheart. It was a very endearing term. But that person wasn't easy on you. They said, rudy, get your crap, get in the car. You picked this sport. You're not quitting. Get that instrument out of its case, Start practicing. You remember that person in your life or when you didn't feel like getting out of bed one day, they called you up and said, rudy, I'm coming over. Get your stuff on, we're going out. They gave you hope when you needed it the most.

[B]

So let me ask you a flip question. If that's been around for centuries, I feel that happens the least amount it's ever happened.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they don't want to apply pressure these days. So in an inverted sense, is that causing a lot of these problems?

[A]

Sure, man. That's a big discussion around resiliency and the lack of resiliency. The kids have this coddling of the American mind that Jonathan Height.

[B]

Well, I see it in staff and people I work with these days. You know, I. I didn't serve in the military and all that, but I have a lot of respect for people that do. And I remind people, you know, we in our business use, you know, a lot of kind of quotes and reflection on, like, Navy SEALs and the training and stuff. And I always try and remind people when they're upset or they think life's hard or, you know, these. These sort of stories about your partner. Right. I can. I Mean, it can sometimes give context that. That life's not really that hard in comparison for some other people. So.

[A]

So, but, but Rick would never say that. He would always tell you that what you're going through might be more difficult than what he had to go through physically.

[B]

Well, that's based on your perception and resilience.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Right. So.

[A]

But we've robbed kids of that.

[B]

Yeah, that's my point. Right, so. But if they don't have that, then. Because. Because technically, and I mean, a lot of people agree on this, technically, everyone should have the easiest life now versus, you know, my grandparents. I always say, my grandma was making grenades in a factory for the war. My granddad was fighting in the war. So two generations on, we now technically should have the easiest, safest. We have access to food and, you know, most of us in America at least. But you're saying levels are increasing.

[A]

The same thing happened to Rome, though. The first generation built the roads, the second generation used them, and the third generation said, who did this?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then they fell apart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we've, you know, I'm. I have a huge theory on what's really happened. It's really Generation X. It's our fault. We created this mess.

[B]

Why?

[A]

You know, what's the summary?

[B]

I know.

[A]

Yeah. I'll give you a quick little story on this. So last summer, I was with this guy, and he's looking at his phone. I'm always watching everything, you know, just the way you're sitting right now. And he looking at his phone, and he was like, huh? I was like, whoa, what was that? And he shows me this picture of this kid, looks like he was taking the 80s and he's got a Coors Light can. He's doing this. And hopefully it's empty because the kid was about 5 years old, and that says Gen X, the last great generation before the sissies were born. And I almost took the bait because I'm a Gen Xer and I want to, like, you know, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, buddy. Come on. But I didn't because of the amount of kids I'm with all the time. And I looked at him and I said, who created this mess? And he goes, what do you mean? I said, who created this whole mess? I said, you did. I said, you need to go in the bathroom, look in the mirror. I said, you did this to them? You can't blame a kid for the, you know, all these kids in their phones and these kids.

[B]

You did this to them because you're the parents.

[A]

You put it in their hands.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like take some frigging responsibility.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so I mean, that's the heart of it, man.

[B]

Yeah, that's an interesting.

[A]

Oh man, I light up teachers with that one every day. I just this morning a principal, great principal friend of mine, they just finished Jonathan Haidt's book the Anxious Generation, said, do you have some thoughts on it? And that was the summary that I gave him. I said, we're going to take phones out of kids hands. When have you ever put the genie back in the bottle? That's the dumbest thing you could actually say. I want that myself. I'm in schools. I see the fragmentation of attention. I see the sleep dep. The sleep deprivation. But you ain't putting that one back in the, in the bottle, buddy.

[B]

Well, and that's because it's much bigger. Because you do that. Then the parents complain. The kids need it for safety or to contact them. Right, so that's this whole.

[A]

Yeah, you just go in public and watch parents in their phones.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You tell the parents not to have their phone all day.

[B]

Well, I actually meet a lot, you know, I don't have kids, but I meet a lot of people. And then when the kids cry and they hand them the iPad. Sure, right, sure. So I see that a lot. So, yeah, interesting. So back, back to you. And I want to keep on the bullying side and what you do. So, you know, I think everyone listening understands a bit now about how there's such a big problem, you're helping address it. There's many compounding variables that play into it that we've already discussed and way more that we could discuss. But let's just give everyone more like a third grade level because they don't know you like I do in the backstory. Tell them exactly what you do. So you go into schools, you do talks around the world and you teach.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And really that's the tip of our iceberg. Then we have two main things that we really pedal, if you will, this thing called circle. It's an ancient practice. People think it's some new age sitting in a circle. Kumbaya. No, no, no. This is a 400,000-year-old practice. And if you understand, I could go into a two hour diatribe on the neurological construction of empathy and how it is constructed in the human brain. And make no mistake about it, the only reason we are sitting here today is because of empathy. We've learned to share resources with one another. So we don't tear each other to shreds. And we help people that are in distress so that when we're in distress, people help us. That's empathy.

[B]

It's a neurological process from the animals.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

That's what they say.

[A]

That's right. And if you look at this thing called circle that we do, right, because a hundred thousand years ago, your ancestors sat in circle and one person started to talk, everybody else would lean forward and they would listen. Listen. That's the foundational root of empathy, is perspective. Taking listening to someone else. We don't do a good job of that anymore.

[B]

We do it on zoom now.

[A]

Yeah. But we just don't do a good job of even listening to people anymore. You're waiting for me to shut up so you can jump in, and I'm waiting for you to shut up so I can jump in. That's just the world today. But you cannot develop empathetically if you don't have the beginning of that construction. You can't get into emotional sharing. You can't get into empathetic concern, which is some more of the science of it. You have to start with listening. And when you're in circle, you have to listen to people because you're not allowed to talk. So we go in after these great presentations that'll blow your mind. And we put kids in circle. I sat in circle last week with a fourth grade young man that was super annoying. He had this big stuffed animal, Spider man stuffed animal. I mean, I wanted to be like, ah, this kid was so annoying when this little boy next to him, fourth grader, started to cry. And this kid must have been 150 pounds and 5, 2. This fourth grade boy, the one that was annoying with this big doll. But I knew immediately who, what fourth grade boy has a big doll like, this is so overweight, this boy, something's going on in his life. So it didn't bother me. He holds this other little boy next to him. And I almost. I was so choked up watching this because he's holding this tiny little boy who's sobbing next to him in this circle. And then when it gets all the way back around and I ask another question and one of my favorite questions, you know, where would you go if you had a time machine? And you got to set that question up the right way? And this little boy, the big kid said I'd go back. My cat was killed by a pit bull, and I found him after the circle. The principal, who was in the circle, came over to me and she Said she just, she was speechless. She goes, that young man watched his father commit suicide in front of him. He's annoying for a reason. And that cat was the only thing that regulated his emotions. So circle is probably the most important work that we do. But on top of that, I'm a play junkie. You know, it's hard to go from a story like that to talking about play. But plays where all mammals learn to transition successfully from childhood into adulthood. All of your skills you got in self directed, self controlled play, which we have annihilated in children.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We don't let them do it anymore.

[B]

Why? I always say, I'm a big kid still at home.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I like all my offices and what to do. And I agree. You know, I often say, I mean, the fun has been sucked out of the world for these people.

[A]

And play is the essence of learning. It's where, you know, you don't need anything but play to learn. It's. And if you look at the science of it, all mammals have automatic play cycles that happen. Rats start at four weeks, they end at 14 weeks. Start and stop. And if you disrupt that play cycle, they don't know how to mate properly. They, they become very dangerous. You have to have play. So we invented years ago this thing called a bully drill. It's sociodramatic play. It's the greatest form of play. Where you could take me back to when you were in middle school, almost like a flashbulb. And you could be like, oh my God, I remember this kid at this water fountain, he was going to take a drink and somebody shoved him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's the scene that you have in your head. Now. We would take kids and we reconstruct those scenes with them. No adults involved. And we take older kids and they teach it to younger kids. It's our step program, our student teacher empathy program. So we train high schoolers how to construct these bully drills to do circle. And we do it age mixed. Because one of the worst things we ever did in compulsory education was segregate kids by age. The worst thing you could ever do is take a bunch of seventh grade girls, put them together and hand them a phone. You take that same seventh grade girl who's a monster and you give her a first or second grader. She'll never be mean to it.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Ever. She'll practice compassion, which is a different set of neurological circuits in the brain. So that's what we do after these great presentations. K12 we implement Circle because that's where empathy, we have to have spaced, repetitive practice, which people don't understand is. Education is about spaced, repetitive practice and so is every other human skill. You can't develop compassion and empathy and these things with. Without it being a spaced, repetitive practice. And when do we do that with kids? No, we put an Instagram reel on it, we talk about it and we're like, oh, that sounds great, but when are you practicing it? Yeah, yeah, you used to do it in the barn with Grandpa, working on a car with mom, baking with dad. We don't do those things at the rate that we used to.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You know what the average screen time is for an American teen today? Seven to nine and a half hours in a two dimensional world. Disembodied, asynchronously crazy, scary stuff, man.

[B]

So I want to leave some bits for the episode.

[A]

Right, yeah, yeah, I know.

[B]

So, last question I have for you. Tell me. Obviously the legacy side, you know, I think most people listening can probably guess already it's solving or helping solve and, you know, pitch away at these problems. But I'll ask you what, how do you summarize what you want to be known for?

[A]

I don't want to be known, Rhodey.

[B]

Okay. All the impact you want to have.

[A]

I want to create more sweethearts and heroes in our young people. They are the solution. We say our kids are the future. That's a lie. They're not the future, they're our present. And just to reach back into a bit of the conversation, you know that principal I was messaging this morning about the book study he's doing? I see kids waking up. This is the truth. I sit with 11th and 12th graders that say, I'm not wearing makeup. A Gen X woman wouldn't go at the house without makeup on. But I see young people saying, I'm done with it. It was torture. It was hell, middle school, dealing with these phones, this technology. But they're going to figure it out. And we got to stop telling them that they're the problem. We have to admit that we're the problem. The Gen Xers, we're the generation in control right now. And the millennials are waiting to take the baton from us. But we're the generation that screwed everything up. And the quicker we recognize that and empower our young people to be that change. Because I see it every day in circle. I don't care what anyone says about education. I see young people sitting in circle reflecting on how much we effed them up and saying, I'm not falling for it. And they're putting the phones down more than I would anticipate them. And they're saying, don't get sucked into that vortex, because I did when I was in seventh grade, eighth grade. But so did you. And so did I, just in a different fashion. And I think what I know, what fixes that are people that give hope to other people and people that take action to alleviate the suffering that people are in. Sweethearts and Heroes.

[B]

Yeah. I love it. Love it. Well, excited for your episode and everything else that's come in and your story and more of this, you know, I mean, it's obviously, as everyone can probably tell, much needed and, you know, much needed. So it's great to have you here, and that's what this show is all about. So thank you so much, guys. Hope that was an impactful session for you today. And podcasts. I'm sure it was. And hopefully it ignites you to have some positive change in the world, just like we're having right here. Go check out the full episode and see all the great stuff that these guys are doing. Until next time, keep working hard and build a legacy. See Take care. Of.