Eric Simonson: The Case for Flat-Fee Financial Advice

Summary

Podcast Summary: Eric Simonson: The Case for Flat-Fee Financial Advice

The Long View by Morningstar, hosted by Christine Benz, Dan Lefkovitz, and Amy C. Arnott, features an insightful conversation with Eric Simonson, CEO of Abundo Wealth and head of the Advice Only Network. Released on June 24, 2025, this episode delves into the evolving landscape of financial advice, focusing on the rise of flat-fee, advice-only financial planning as an ethical and cost-effective alternative to traditional models.

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1. Introduction to Advice Only Financial Planning

Eric Simonson begins by defining the "advice only" model: financial planners who provide guidance without taking custody of clients' investments or selling financial products.

“We only give advice. You know, we're not selling products, we're not taking custody.” ([01:41])

This model emphasizes transparency and ethical standards, distinguishing itself from commission-based or assets under management (AUM) models. Simonson highlights that it has gained traction over the past decade, offering various fee structures such as hourly rates, project-based fees, and ongoing monthly subscriptions.

2. Advantages Over Traditional Models

The conversation contrasts the advice-only approach with the dominant AUM model. Simonson outlines several benefits:

• Conflict of Interest Reduction: Without product sales or AUM fees, advisors can offer unbiased recommendations.

  “If they're recommending, hey, go get life insurance, they really truly want you to have that because they're not making a commission on that.” ([04:54])

• Cost Efficiency: Flat fees can be more affordable over time compared to the compounding costs of AUM fees.

• Inclusivity: Unlike AUM advisors who may require high minimum assets, advice-only planners can serve a broader clientele, including those with lower net worth.

3. The Persistence of AUM Model and Industry Inertia

Despite the advantages of the advice-only model, the AUM-based approach remains prevalent due to industry inertia and economic incentives favoring AUM fees. Simonson notes:

“I think it's largely inertia. You know, that's just kind of how it's been done and there's never been anything to really challenge that.” ([06:58])

He also points out that AUM fees provide advisors with predictable, scalable income tied to market growth, making them financially attractive.

4. Encouraging Financial Advisors to Adopt the Advice Only Model

Simonson offers guidance to young advisors considering the advice-only path:

• Ethical Alignment: Ideal for those prioritizing transparency and client-centric ethics.

  “It's the right model for you if you really are led with your ethics and morals.” ([08:33])

• Business Growth Potential: Despite lower per-client income, the ability to onboard multiple clients can offset initial revenue differences.

  “You might bring on three or four times as many clients... offset that.” ([08:33])

5. Addressing Supply and Demand in Advice Only Services

The Advice Only Network faces a supply-demand imbalance, with high consumer interest but limited available advisors. Simonson attributes this to:

• Low Consumer Awareness: Increasing visibility and education are essential.

• Platform Solutions: The Advice Only Network aims to bridge this gap by showcasing advisors and facilitating client connections.

  “We created the advice only network... to showcase advisors and let consumers spread out the wealth.” ([10:51])

6. Rigorous Vetting of Advisors

To maintain trust, the network employs a stringent vetting process:

• Regulatory Checks: Ensuring proper registration and compliance.

• Transparency Verification: Reviewing advisors' fees and compensation structures to confirm they are purely advice-based.

  “We want them to really confident that they're looking at truly advice only advisors.” ([12:54])

7. Diverse Fee Structures and Client Fit

Advice-only advisors offer various fee arrangements, each suiting different client needs:

• Hourly Fees: Suitable for clients with specific, short-term questions.

• Project-Based Fees: Ideal for one-time services like Roth IRA conversions.

• Monthly Subscriptions: Best for clients seeking ongoing guidance through life changes.

Simonson advises clients to match fee structures with their financial needs and circumstances.

“If you're looking for a specific question to be answered... That's great for hourly or project-based advisors.” ([14:16])

8. Hybrid Models Combining Flat Fees and AUM

While advocating for advice-only, Simonson acknowledges hybrid models where advisors charge flat fees for planning and modest AUM fees for portfolio management. He supports this approach if it maintains fee transparency and aligns with client preferences.

“Anything that moves towards more fee transparency and lower fees... That's a reasonable strategy.” ([16:08])

9. The Undervalued Role of Financial Planning

Financial planning is often overshadowed by investment management in client perceptions. Simonson emphasizes its critical role in aligning financial decisions with personal values and life goals.

“Consumer have overvalued the investment planning... and drastically undervalued the financial planning part.” ([17:56])

He argues that comprehensive financial planning can have a more profound impact on clients' lives than mere investment advice.

10. Convincing Clients of the Need for Financial Planning

When clients are skeptical about financial planning, Simonson recommends initiating conversations around everyday financial behaviors, such as budgeting and spending tracking, to illustrate the broader benefits of planning.

“We ask if they track their spending... That starts to almost crack open a little door.” ([19:50])

11. Adapting to Virtual Advisory Services

The shift to virtual meetings has become widespread, enhancing convenience and accessibility for clients across various states. This trend is especially appreciated by younger generations comfortable with digital interactions.

“We have clients in over 40 states... Most advice only advisors are almost entirely virtual.” ([21:21])

12. Catering to Younger Clients’ Preferences

Younger clients prefer models that avoid high AUM fees, favoring flat fees or subscriptions instead. They are tech-savvy, comfortable with DIY investing, yet seek professional guidance for strategic planning.

“Younger folks are way more comfortable with technology... But they still need somebody to help tell them if they can retire.” ([22:38])

13. Financial Arrangements and Platform Economics

Advisors on the Advice Only Network pay a nominal fee to be listed without the platform receiving any commissions from client engagements. This ensures impartiality and promotes genuine client-advisor matches.

“We don't have any financial incentive over one person or another... 'Find the best fit.'" ([24:07])

14. Building Abundo Wealth: A Case Study

Eric Simonson founded Abundo Wealth to offer financial planning without the traditional AUM fees he found detrimental to client outcomes. By allowing clients to manage their investments independently while providing strategic advice, Abundo has successfully attracted clients seeking cost-effective, ethical financial planning.

“I wanted to invest in the Vanguard indexes... people were actually really excited about keeping their investments at Fidelity or Vanguard.” ([25:30])

15. Client Demographics and Financial Stories

Abundo's typical client is a couple in their mid-40s with a net worth of $1-2 million, navigating complex financial stages such as saving for children, tax planning, and approaching retirement. The firm creates a dynamic "financial story" for each client, continuously updating it to reflect life changes and financial milestones.

“It's a living, breathing document... clients have access through our website and app.” ([28:00])

16. Aligning Budgeting with Personal Values

A significant aspect of Abundo's approach is ensuring clients' spending aligns with their personal values. Common areas of overspending include delivery services and dining out. Simonson advocates for incremental budgeting adjustments that respect clients' lifestyles while promoting financial health.

“Maybe cutting Netflix for six months... just getting a little bit of momentum.” ([33:47])

17. Support for FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early)

Abundo Wealth actively supports FIRE enthusiasts by providing tailored financial planning that respects their desire for early retirement without relinquishing investment control. Through personalized strategies and conservative withdrawal rates, Abundo assists clients in achieving sustainable financial independence.

“Most people are pretty excited about taking that on... you're still in charge.” ([34:13])

18. Portfolio Management and Investment Strategies

Abundo advocates for passive index investing, maintaining a unified team view while allowing minor adjustments based on individual client needs. They recommend maintaining international diversity, typically allocating 20-25% of a stock portfolio to non-U.S. investments.

“We are big believers in passive indexes... tailor small changes based on clients’ needs.” ([40:09])

19. Navigating Market Uncertainty

In times of market volatility, such as tariff-induced uncertainties, Abundo focuses on assessing and reaffirming each client's risk tolerance. The firm emphasizes staying invested and making informed portfolio adjustments without succumbing to panic-driven decisions.

“The best hedge against inflation long term has been the stock market.” ([47:59])

20. Managing High-Interest Debt

For clients burdened with high-interest debts, such as mortgages or credit cards, Simonson advises aggressive repayment strategies. By comparing debt costs to potential investment returns, clients can make informed decisions about prioritizing debt elimination.

“If your cost is 8%, that's a pretty decent long term rate to lock in on that savings.” ([50:29])

21. Travel Hacking and Financial Benefits

Abundo integrates lifestyle preferences, such as travel, into its financial planning. By optimizing credit card rewards and strategically redeeming points, clients can enhance their financial benefits without compromising their passions.

“Use points on partners like Hyatt... get three or four cents per point.” ([51:55])

Simonson also advises against hoarding points due to inflation in reward programs, encouraging clients to utilize points flexibly to maximize their value.

“Stay flexible to jump on a deal when they come would be probably more of a priority now than ever before.” ([54:45])

Conclusion

Eric Simonson's advocacy for the flat-fee, advice-only financial planning model presents a compelling alternative to traditional AUM-based services. By prioritizing ethics, transparency, and client-centric strategies, Abundo Wealth and the Advice Only Network are reshaping how financial advice is delivered and consumed. This model not only aligns better with modern clients' preferences but also fosters more sustainable and trust-based advisor-client relationships.

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Notable Quotes:

• “We only give advice. You know, we're not selling products, we're not taking custody.” ([01:41])

• “If they're recommending, hey, go get life insurance, they really truly want you to have that because they're not making a commission on that.” ([04:54])

• “We have clients in over 40 states... Most advice only advisors are almost entirely virtual.” ([21:21])

• “The best hedge against inflation long term has been the stock market.” ([47:59])

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This episode underscores the growing demand for ethical, transparent financial advice and the potential of flat-fee models to meet diverse client needs in an evolving financial landscape.

Transcript

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[Morningstar Disclosure]

Important disclosure information at the conclusion of this episode.

[Christine Benz]

Hi and welcome to the Longview. I'm Christine Benz, Director of Personal Finance and Retirement Planning for Morningstar.

[Amy Arnott]

And I'm Amy Arnott, Portfolio Strategist for Morningstar.

[Christine Benz]

Our guest on the podcast today is Eric Simonson. Eric is CEO of Abundo wealth, an advice only financial planning firm he founded in 2019. In addition, he heads up the Advice Only Network, which is a platform dedicated to helping consumers find advice only financial planners. Before starting Abundo, Eric was a financial advisor and Managing Director of Ameriprise Financial. He's a certified Financial planner and received Bachelor's degrees in Finance and English from the University of Minnesota. Eric, welcome to the Longview.

[Eric Simonson]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.

[Christine Benz]

Well, we're happy to have you here. So we want to talk about the financial planning firm that you run, but before that, and maybe the main thing that we want to talk about today is this advice only network that you oversee. Maybe you can talk about what you were trying to address by starting up the advice only network.

[Eric Simonson]

Sure, yeah, I would love to talk more about that. So just a quick definition for your listeners. For those of you who do not know the term advice only, what it means is financial planners who do not take custody of investments but still give advice. So, you know, we couldn't think of a better term than advice only, but that's what stuck. So we only give advice. You know, we're not selling products, we're not taking custody. And it's very much a new thing in our industry that started, you know, within the last 10 years and more and more advisors are starting to run their businesses this way. And so we wanted to create kind of a landing spot for the public and for advisors to kind of come together and really learn about what advice only is and find advisors that meet that definition.

[Amy Arnott]

So can you talk a little bit more about what you mean by advice only as well, as what types of business models wouldn't fall under that umbrella?

[Eric Simonson]

Sure, yeah. So I think the easiest way to maybe think about advice only is it works very similarly to other financial professionals like a CPA or you know, a lawyer where you pay them just a agreed upon flat fee or fixed fee for advice. So there's no insurance sales, annuity sales, there's no assets under management fee. That advisor still will help you. They'll recommend to you if you need insurance or need annuities, and they'll give you investment advice, but they're not going to have their compensation tied to that recommendation in any way. Which, you know, we really believe that's probably the most transparent ethical way to provide advice as a financial planner. And within that umbrella there are different fee types. So, you know, for example, there could be hourly advice only financial advisors that, you know, they can charge 100, 200, $300 an hour and give you advice on specific topics that you need help on. There could be project based advice only advisors where maybe you just want a Roth IRA conversion analysis and they'll charge you a flat fee for that project. Or there could be ongoing monthly subscription advisors where they're going to help you throughout the ups and downs of your life for a flat monthly fee. But again, the underlying idea here is that whatever you're agreeing to pay them is the fixed fee and there's never going to be any additional hidden fees or sales pressure involved with that relationship.

[Christine Benz]

So with commission based advice, I think most consumers are pretty clear on the conflicts of interest that can be involved there. I'm wondering if you can talk about why you think the advice models that you just discussed are preferable to the dominant form of financial advice, the assets under management model, where the advisor is charging an ongoing fee to do sort of all in financial planning and portfolio management.

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. I think there's a number of reasons. The first being what you mentioned, that, you know, as a consumer you can feel kind of a comfort and a relief knowing that the advice you're getting from that advice on the advisor doesn't have any conflicts of interest really attached to it. So if they're recommending, hey, go, go get life insurance, like they really truly want you to have that because they're not making a commission on that. That's the, you know, kind of the easiest one maybe to start with. Secondarily to that, I would say fees is big piece with the traditional kind of asset center management or commission based advisor. The fees that are being charged to the consumer really do compound and add up over a long period of time versus if you're paying a flat fee, you know, depending on your portfolio size, that can end up being a significantly less amount you're paying to the advisor over time in the advice only world. And, and then maybe the third I would, I would highlight is just the inclusivity of it that you know, with the assets under management based advisor, they're typically going to have minimums to say, hey, we're not going to work with somebody unless they have $500,000 or a million dollars to invest with us versus advice only. Really you're able to help anybody who can afford your fee. So in, you know, some instances on the advice only network, we have advisors charging less than $100 a month for advice. And if that is affordable to a consumer, that advisor would love to help them. And I think that's another big difference.

[Amy Arnott]

So why do you think the AUM based model still seems to be pretty entrenched industry wide? And in addition to that, it seems like even though fees on the investment management side have come down significantly, fees for investment advice really, really haven't had that same sort of pricing pressure. And you know, a 1% AUM based fee is still sort of the norm unless you're at a higher asset level.

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, I wish I had a really great answer here. The best I can tell, I think it's largely inertia. You know, that that's just kind of how it's been done and there's never been anything to really challenge that. And that's part of what we're all excited about in the advice only space to maybe bring something to light here that can challenge this model and really show that there's another way to charge consumers that might be a little bit more consumer friendly. And the second, you know, I think it might have to do with just the economics of it where an advice only, you know, an aum fee, a 1% fee is, is oftentimes going to be a lot more financially beneficial to that advisor than charging a flat $3,000, $4,000, $5,000 fee. And you have the idea that as the market grows, which over time the market has always grown, that AUM fee does give that advisor some nice kind of natural growth to their business where advice only advisors, it has to be a little bit more organic. You have to find that client and grow your business that way instead of based on market growth.

[Christine Benz]

Well, yeah, I wanted to ask Eric about the advisor perspective on this. What would you Say to young advisors who are trying to sort among the different business models for proffering financial advice and might be attracted to the steady cash flows that that AUM model offers. What's the incentive to them to be an advice only planner?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, I'm really fortunate that I get to actually have a lot of conversations with young advisors who are just getting into our career field about advice only. And what I'll say is there is a lot of energy right now around kind of young new advisors who want to get into this space, which has been really kind of positive to see. And what I tell them is, you know, twofold. One, it's the right model for you, you know, to go advice only. It's the right model for you if you really are led with your ethics and morals. Because that's the thing that I'm hearing from them most of the time is they just, they don't want to feel pressured to sell an insurance policy to a friend. They don't want to feel pressured to take over someone's investments and charge a 1% fee, but they still want to help. You know, they still want to give advice and still want to help people achieve their goals. And advice only allows them to do that in a very transparent way. So that's the first kind of benefit I would say to a young advisor or even an experienced advisor that's thinking about transitioning their business to advice only. The second is we are seeing a lot of growth in this space and by and large, most advice only financial planners are having no trouble bringing on clients. So while it's true you may not make as much per client, you might bring on three or four times as many clients or, you know, three or four times faster than an AUM advisor is to kind of offset that. So, you know, it can be an interesting dynamic where you can actually grow your business maybe a little bit faster to start as an advice only advisor.

[Amy Arnott]

So you mentioned the growth in the advice only model, and I know Christine has had a lot of conversations with advice only planners in the Chicago area who are totally overwhelmed with new business and have long waiting lists. So why do you think there's kind of a disconnect between supply and demand where a lot of people say they want to receive advice in this way, but there's a shortage of people to offer it?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, well, I think one is because there hasn't been a lot of consumer awareness around this, which is why I'm thrilled that you guys are shining a spotlight on this. So I think that the more that Consumers and advisors become aware that this is an option. I think we're naturally going to see more advisors come into this space. Two, this is a big reason why we created the advice only network was to try to showcase advisors and let consumers really spread out the wealth to say, hey, this advisor is open to new clients and maybe that can help again with that bottleneck that you're describing that these advice only advisors sometimes feel because they are growing so fast. But yeah, it's an interesting problem to have, but one we're definitely hoping to solve as we all grow.

[Christine Benz]

So what kind of vetting process do advisors have to go through to be on the network in addition to having their business mod pass muster as advice only?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, first and foremost, we're actually overly strict, I would say, about who is on the site. We'll do an a regulatory check. So we'll make sure that the advisor is properly registered with, you know, with their state or with the sec. We'll review their ADV to make sure that they, you know, we look line by line and make sure that there are no hidden, you know, compensation arrangements with other advisors that they might refer to. We look at the advisor's website, we look at their fees, we make sure their fees are matching what they're saying. And so for consumers who are on the advice only network, we want them to be really confident that they're looking at truly advice only advisors. It's not a mixture of, you know, hey, this person does advice only, but they also offer a um. Or this person does advice only, but they're part of a larger firm that is a commissioned firm. No, these are all just true RA standalone RAs that offer advice only as the sole product for their clients.

[Amy Arnott]

It looks like fees in this model can vary pretty widely. So if you're looking at a subscription based fee, for example, you might see something of less than $200 a month, all the way up to $1,000 a month. Is there a good way for prospective clients to kind of gauge the reasonableness of a given advisor's fees?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, that's a great question. And for advisors who are on the higher end of that, I would say there's typically a reason, you know, some of them might be CPAs that also include tax preparation as part of that fee. Or it might be a very, very niche specialty that they have around, you know, maybe stock based compensation or small business planning. So I would say, you know, really look at the advisor and make sure that if it's on the higher end of that fee scale, their Expertise is matching exactly what you're looking for. And if it is, that's a great fit. If what you're looking for help with maybe is more general financial advice, you know, maybe budgeting, you know, basic retirement planning, cash flow planning, picking benefits through work, those would be, you know, pretty standard advice topics that most advisors can have that maybe don't require, you know, quite as high of a fee.

[Christine Benz]

So sticking with the fee question, if I'm looking at the network or looking for someone who charges for advice in this way and trying to decide whether sort of a monthly or a per project arrangement or an hourly arrangement is right in my situation, do you have any guidance on how to settle on that?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, that's, you know, that's a question that we talk about on my company Ubunta. We talk about this quite a bit because we charge a monthly ongoing fee for advice. But you know, there are definitely times where that's not the right fit for clients. I would say if you are looking for a specific question to be answered, you know, so if you just want to know, should I start taking Social Security now or should I wait, you know, until later age or I just left my job, should I keep my 401k where it's at or should I roll it? Those are great questions for an hourly advisor or for again, a project based advisor. But if you're looking for more, you know, entrenched help, you know, if you have a lot going on in your life, you know, maybe you've got a family that, you know, you're working on saving for your kids, plus maybe you're trying to help out your parents where you want an advisor, kind of hold your hand through the ups and downs of life. That's where, you know, a monthly subscription based advisor or you know, an annual financial planner would be the better fit in my opinion.

[Christine Benz]

I wonder, Eric, how you think about a hybrid type model where maybe I'm paying say hourly for the financial planning that I need to have done, but then also maybe some small assets under management fee for ongoing portfolio management. Do you think that's a reasonable idea? Do you think more advisors should use that approach? I'm guessing you don't, but I wonder why.

[Eric Simonson]

No, I do, I do. I think it's a reasonable strategy. Ultimately anything that kind of moves towards more fee transparency and lower fees, you know, I am very much in support of, I would say from a consumer standpoint, if you don't want to be the one pushing the buttons on the trades and in charge of the, you know the investments for yourself, that can be a great option as long as that asset based fee that you're paying is reasonable. I would push back a little bit, Christine, and just say that I think that the investment piece isn't as hard for a lot of people as they might believe it is. You know, I think financial planners do a good job of maybe creating opaqueness around just what exactly is happening with the investments and how hard it is to manage that. But I think we've definitely seen on our end helping over a thousand clients at a bundo that, you know, most people are pretty excited about taking that on and with our help and with our advice, they actually really enjoy the investment piece. So still might not even be worth that small fee. But again, for those people who don't want to do that on their own and they want to pay a small asset based fee, that's totally fine.

[Amy Arnott]

I guess the flip side of, you know, many financial advisors kind of creating the idea that portfolio management is more difficult than it really is or more complex than it needs to be, is that the financial planning side of things is often underrated. Why do you think that is? And are there things that you think advisors can do to help people better understand the value of the financial planning side?

[Eric Simonson]

I have been so happy to see that financial planning has become more widely adopted in the past 15, 20 years. It used to be that a financial planner, all they did was the investments. And that is slowly been changing. And I think, amy, that the 1% fee, if we're just going to make a generalization, the 1% fee the advisors charge, I think that they made investing and they made investing seem more complicated to justify that fee. But now we're seeing advisors do financial planning and start to kind of offer value in other ways to help cover that 1% fee, which I think is a great thing. But yes, I do think that consumers historically have overvalued the investment planning part of the relationship and drastically undervalued the financial planning part of the relationship. Because I think that certainly advice only advisors. The financial planning is the vast majority of what we do and what we talk to our clients about. And you know, that's really the fun part and the part that changes lives. I mean, investing in one investment or one index over another isn't going to actually, you know, make a huge difference for most people, like budgeting would, or setting up a college fund for a child would, for example.

[Christine Benz]

I have had that conversation so many times with consumers where they are convinced they need an investment advisor and Maybe they do. But, you know, having to quickly make a sales pitch on, well, maybe you should look at a financial planner. How do you approach that when you're talking to someone who is not sure of what they need and maybe is a little bit skeptical about why financial planning might be a fit for them? How do you address that?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, we recently wrote a blog post about this because, like, you're saying consumers still think, you know, I have friends, I had dinner last night with friends, and like, they still think that what I do is investment advice. And it's like, no, you know, that's part of it. That's like 2% of what I do. I would say in the conversations I have with people, where I like to immediately go is a pointed question around, like, hey, do you track your spending? And typically people will be like, no. And you say, well, why not? And then they, you know, they'll fumble with an answer, and then that starts to almost, like, crack open a little door to be like, wait, why are you. Why are you asking me about this? Like, why do you care about how much I spend? Because that's not typical, right? For what they would imagine a financial planner would be asking them, or ask them like, hey, are you saving into an HSA through work? Again, Another kind of disarming question like, oh, that's interesting. Why should I be doing that? That's how I like to approach it is to start to almost open their eyes to some of these different topics that we actually talk about with clients. I found success with that.

[Amy Arnott]

We've heard that people often start looking for a planner by searching on geography, looking for people in their state or, you know, in the vicinity of where they live. Is that changing with younger age cohorts? And do you see more planners and clients meeting virtually these days?

[Eric Simonson]

100%, yeah. I would say it's changing not just for younger consumers, but really for everybody. Covid obviously created an adoption to virtual online interactions, but it's just more convenient. I mean, we like to tell clients, like, you don't have to drive 30 minutes each way to come see us. You're not paying for the office space that we would have to rent so we can keep our costs lower to serve you better. You know, if you move, you're not like, also moving advisor relationships. So, yeah, we have clients in over 40 states, and I know most advice only advisors are almost entirely virtual. There are a handful of them that will still meet folks in person, but by and large, that is a changing dynamic in our industry.

[Christine Benz]

How about younger clients? I think that the holy grail in the financial advice industry is figuring out like what they want, how they prefer to pay for advice. Can you provide any insight on that? Because it seems like your firm does generally target, I would say sub age 50, but maybe you tell me what are younger clients looking for in terms of financial advice?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, and I might be biased here because of, you know, my, my advice only background here, but the consumers that we are seeing and we are talking to the younger ones, never in their like wildest dreams would they ever want to pay a 1% fee. I don't know where the education has been coming from with that. I don't know if it's you know, TikTok or Instagram, but definitely folks are, younger folks are coming to us and saying, hey, I love your model because I would never pay a 1% fee. Like I just know that over time that wouldn't be the best thing for me. But I still need help. And you know, younger, younger people are way more comfortable with technology. They're way more comfortable doing their own trading. You know, a lot of them grew up on, on Robinhood, you know, webull and they're not afraid of, you know, pushing the buttons to buy the index, but they still need somebody to help tell them if they can retire and how much they need to say for that. So yeah, it is, I feel very bullish on advice only as a whole because of the younger generation and what they're demanding of us.

[Amy Arnott]

So we also wanted to ask about kind of the financial arrangements for the advice only network platform. Do advisors pay to be on the platform and are there any benefits that you receive if a client actually signs up to work with a given planner?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, they do pay a small fee. The advisors pay a small fee to us to be on the site to be listed. But no, we don't have any type of compensation arrangement or solicitation arrangement with them. You know, advisors are free to choose whoever they want to work with. We just want them to find the best fit. You know, we have no financial incentive over one person or another. Ultimately yeah, we're just trying to make it as easy as possible for consumers to go on the site, filter down to find the perfect advice only advisor for them and then hopefully have a great relationship moving forward with that person.

[Schwab Trading]

Trading at Schwab is now powered by Ameritrade. Unlocking the power of thinkorswim. The award winning trading platforms loaded with features that let you dive deeper into the market. Visualize your trades in a new light on thinkorswim desktop with robot bus, charting and analysis tools. All while you uncover new opportunities with up to the minute market news and insights. ThinkOrSwim is available on desktop, web and mobile. To meet you where you are, it's built by the trading obsessed to help you trade brilliantly. Learn [e-mail] trading we wanted to switch.

[Christine Benz]

Over to discuss your firm, Eric Abundo, which you have referenced a couple of times. You worked for Ameriprise Financial for many years before starting up Abundo. What were you trying to do differently with your own planning firm?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of what we talked about, probably the biggest thing was I just did not think that the Fees, again, that 1% fee over time, I didn't think that that was gonna be the right thing for the client relative to, you know, just investing in the index and kind of matching market performance. I felt like long term they would probably perform better without that fee drag. And so I wanted to invest in the Vanguard indexes, but I could not do that as an advisor at a broker. And obviously you really can't do that anywhere. And so I looked around and I thought, gosh, I would love to be able to help my clients, still give them financial planning advice, but just shed some of these investment fees. And that's really where the idea of a bundle was born. And I was really not sure if it was going to work because I didn't know if consumers would be willing to not, you know, delegate that investment management component and do it on their own. And I was thrilled that, you know, right off the bat, people were actually really excited about keeping their investments at Fidelity or Vanguard or wherever it was that they wanted to have them, but still get advice around it. So right off the bat, it was, we knew it was going to work and we've been very fortunate to grow substantially from then.

[Amy Arnott]

What's the typical profile like for one of your clients?

[Eric Simonson]

45, 46 years old is the average. Typically it's a couple. So we work with more couples than we do individuals. We also, on average see that they're, you know, usually about 1 to 2 million dollars in overall net worth. That's an average. We do work with quite a few younger folks in their early to mid-20s who don't have accumulated wealth yet. And then we also work with a ton of pre retirees and retirees, but on average it's kind of mid-40s and a lot going on in their life between retirement, kind of thinking heavily about retirement, trying to manage tax planning and Tax strategies, saving for kids while balancing maybe daycare. Yeah, those are fun people to work with.

[Christine Benz]

You create what's called a financial story for each of your clients. Can you talk about what that includes?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah. So really, our financial story is our version of a financial plan. We call it a financial story to really better mirror what we think of it as. You know, and each person's life is a constant kind of evolution of changes. And so our financial story for them is constantly evolving. So every time we meet with a client, we're updating their key tasks, their key strategies to keep in mind through this financial story. And then as things are being completed or maybe archived, we're kind of moving it into more of a finished state and then adding new things to it. So it's a living, breathing document that the clients have access to at all times through our website as well as through an app that we built for them. Yeah, we love the idea of a financial story because we think that, yeah, financial planning is very much a narrative that everyone goes through during their lives.

[Amy Arnott]

It seems like budgeting and helping your clients align their spending with their priorities is a key aspect of what you do. How do those things get out of whack and how do you help people bring them back into alignment?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, they get out of whack more often than you would imagine. And so it's interesting. I remember during COVID when people were out of work, we actually spent a lot of time talking about budgeting and value based spending with them. And then once everything kind of opened back up and people were traveling again, it was like, oh, no, my budget has been blown up. I got to revisit that. So, yeah, what we do is we have everyone kind of go through a values exercise to really figure out what's important to them as people. So that might be health or family or security. And once we've identified kind of what those pillars are that motivate them as individuals, we like to make sure that their spending is not coming into conflict with that. So if we find out they spend a lot of money on dining out, but maybe they have a value that is much more based in eating at home and cooking. Well, you know, we'll have a conversation about that and see if they want to revisit that. And, you know, we have our financial planning software has a built in budget that we can track their spending. And, you know, we don't make every single client become hardcore budgeters all the time, but it's great, you know, every couple years to just revisit the spending and see, hey, has it ticked up more than inflation? Do we need to try to cut back in any, in any particular way? And I think that's at least, that's one of the big reasons why we love ongoing financial planning, because it's one of those things that can be really helpful to do every year or two.

[Christine Benz]

Are there any spending cuts that you would identify as kind of low hanging fruit that tend to appear in a lot of budgets where you're like, oh, here's an easy place for us to address some overspending. Like, I'm thinking subscription fees. But are there any others that seem to come up again and again?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, the big one is delivery services. So, you know, the doordash and Ubereats, you know, and Uber as a whole, I mean, those really add up. Can be oftentimes hundreds of dollars a month. And so that thing to be like, hey, just, you know, hop in the car and go get it and you'll save quite a bit of money. Dining out can be one that I love to talk to folks about because I, you know, Christine, you and I talked about this. We love dining out. I think that's a fun thing to do. But sometimes, you know, it can get overboard for folks. And I asked them, you know, hey, that meal you had two weeks ago at so and so restaurant, tell me about that, right? And, and they might, they might struggle to even remember what they ate. They might struggle to remember, you know, if they enjoyed it or not. And it's like, okay, well, that maybe that $200 expense that happened two weeks ago, it didn't have a lasting impact for you. And if you would have instead spent that $200, maybe just having friends over and cooking for them and having some great wine, would that have been a better use of the $200, you know, for you and your values and kind of you as a person. And that can be a fun thing to just challenge people on, to get them to be like, yeah, you know what? I probably would have. That would have been a memory that I would have kept onto better.

[Amy Arnott]

So you mentioned working with a lot of people in their 40s who might have young children. And I'm curious if you ever get pushback from those types of clients who, yeah, I know I need to look at my budget and spend less in certain areas, but I'm just totally overwhelmed with keeping up with my work and my kids and ordering out and having food delivered is one of the few things I can do to save time and make my life more manageable.

[Eric Simonson]

Absolutely. It is something we are very mindful of and all of our financial planners on the team, it's not our job to lecture or to force anybody to do anything that they don't want to do, but we love to just meet people where they're at. And maybe rather than just creating a full blown budget that they're tracking for months on end, it might just be, hey, what's one thing? What's one positive change we can make right now? Maybe it's cutting Netflix for six months or another subscription for six months and just getting a little bit of momentum that they can feel really good and positive about as the first step. And then of course, as life changes and maybe they have a little bit more bandwidth, we can go a little deeper on it, but we still don't want to lose sight of it, even for those busy professionals.

[Christine Benz]

Wanted to ask about fire, the financial independence, retire early. I think my initial connection to Abundo was through one of your planners, Chris Mamula, who is kind of a fire person. I'm wondering if you can talk about your thoughts on fire and whether you have worked with many fire people, people who wanted to gain financial independence earlier.

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, we are so grateful and lucky to have Chris on the team. And he has brought a ton of fire knowledge to us. We do, we work with a lot of folks who are going down this path. I don't have an exact number, but it's in the hundreds for sure of fire folks. And I would say there's actually a lot of overlap between fire focused people as well as boglehead focused people. You know, people who are really into low cost index investing. And those people just have a natural tendency to gravitate towards advice only because, you know, a lot of them have been DIY ers, a lot of them have been kind of doing it on their own for a while. And reaching out to a bundo or reaching out to an advice only advisor might be their kind of first taste of professional help. But the key underlying thing for all of them is they, they don't want to give up control of the investments. And you know, with advice only, you don't have to do that, right? You're still in charge, you still manage the investments. We're just here to support you and guide you along your journey. And so, yeah, fire is a fun topic. And in addition to Chris, another one of our financial planners, himself actually fired. And so he loves to tell his story to his clients and kind of teach them on how they can do it as well.

[Christine Benz]

I Wanted to ask Eric about some of the rules of thumb that I hear people in the fire community talking about, like the, you know, 4% guideline. Do you have more refined systems for helping people figure out how much they can safely spend if they've retired early?

[Eric Simonson]

We do, yeah. I mean, the 4% rule obviously is great as a general rule of thumb, but our financial planning tools and software that we use, it's going to be much more customized to that individual in terms of, okay, well, do you also have Social Security or pension income? Do you have rental income that can help supplement, you know, that portfolio withdrawal rate? And so, yeah, I would say if you had nothing else to go on, I personally always like 3.5% a little bit better just because I tend to be on the more conservative side. But yeah, that's a good starting point. But again, it really depends on where that money is. Because if it's all sitting in 401k or IRA, it can be a little bit more tricky to start your withdrawals if you fire versus if you're building up a taxable brokerage account, for example. So, yeah, that's where planning, I think can help is just really fine tune some of the loose ends to make sure that what you're doing is going to work versus just relying on a little bit more of a blanket statement like, yeah, My income is 4% of my investments.

[Amy Arnott]

What about the idea of taking a more flexible approach to work in general? So instead of saying, I want to retire at age 40 or 50 and then I'm done for the rest of my life, do you think it can be beneficial for people to, to take a more flexible approach where they might, you know, take some time off for a few years to travel and then start back working or, you know, work part time for a while and then go back up to full time?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, if we were texting, I would give you like a bunch of heart emojis right now because I love that so much. Yeah, that is something that I think is so underrated. And you know, Chris, that's really what he did. Like, Chris is like, you know what, I'm going to work out a bundo part time and you know, be fun employed because he knew that that can be a really great strategy to help him kind of stay financially independent. And yeah, Jeremy Zucki, the other financial planner team, same thing with him. He is a big believer in it doesn't have to be all or none. You know, it doesn't have to be. You go full retirement at 50 or 52 or whatever it can be. Yeah, you transition to it. It's just so hard to know, you know, nothing is permanent really anymore. And we've seen so many people who have thought they were going to just retire off to the sunset and they got really bored after a couple years and now they're doing some part time job that they just love and they're like happier than they were when they retired. And so, yeah, so I think just having an open mind to all the possibilities and understanding that, yeah, life is very much a kind of a winding river of things that are going to happen to you. And yeah, you shouldn't get too focused on the rigidity of your financial plan and your target numbers because it's just hard to say what's going to happen even in a year.

[Christine Benz]

I noticed that you use Right Capital as your financial planning software at Ubundo rather than the better known eMoney or MoneyGuide Pro. Maybe you can talk about what you like about it.

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, yeah. I mean what we like most about it is it had the best in our opinion. You know, they're all great, all those softwares you mentioned are great. But in our opinion Recapital was a little bit better from a consumer usability standpoint. And for us at Ubundo, you know, a big thing was making sure that the relationship that we're having with our clients is very collaborative and we want them to be, you know, involved and have access to the financial planning tool even between meetings. And so we wanted to use something that we felt like they could understand and feel really good about logging in and looking at their net worth and playing around with. And so that's why we went with Rec Capital over the others.

[Amy Arnott]

How much leeway do your advisors have to put their own spin on client plans and portfolios? So do you have a house view about whether to use index funds or active funds or do you have certain portfolio allocations that you recommend for different age groups?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, we, for compliance reasons, we very much have to have a unified view, which we do. So, you know, as a team, we are big believers in passive indexes and just buying the market and having exposure there. But each individual advisor with each individual client is going to have a tailored conversation to that client. And if that client maybe has significant inflation fears, we might, you know, look at holding tips as part of the bond exposure. So there, you know, there's going to be a little bit. But yeah, it's not like one advisor is recommending VTI and the other advisor is recommending, you know, an actively Managed mutual fund? No, it's kind of the core portfolio, but then just small changes based on each client's needs.

[Christine Benz]

We're recording this toward the end of April and there has been a lot of uncertainty in the market related to tariffs. Mainly wondering if you are hearing from many clients who are worried about their portfolios and financial plans during this period and if you have kind of a stock script that you stick with when talking to those clients or does it vary by the individual.

[Eric Simonson]

We have heard from? I'm not going to say like the majority of our clients, because the Boglehead clients and some of those fire clients, those clients aren't quite as concerned, I would say, as others, but, you know, definitely a decent percentage of our clients we've been in contact with who have had market concerns. And the advice that we give our clients, it actually might be a little bit different than what you're kind of used to. So I'm a big believer that each person has their own unique risk tolerance and we want to make sure that we know what that risk tolerance is. And so times like right now are a great time to revisit. Like, okay, are you actually okay with, you know, 80, 20 or 90, 10 or whatever it is that you're at? You know, because if people are really, really concerned being down 15%, they might not be in the right investment portfolio. So we're doing a lot of education. We are also really talking to clients about kind of what it means to take on the risks that they're taking on. And ultimately, I think a lot of people right now, just because of all the changes that are happening, a lot of people do feel powerless and like they don't have a lot of control over what's happening. And even making some really minor investment tweaks like rebalancing the portfolio or, or adjusting their risk slightly can be enough to really empower them. Like, okay, I've taken some action. I feel good. So we're just really trying to have a really in depth conversation with as many people as we can, just about exactly how much risk we're taking on what that means for them, if any changes need to be made. And people have been very appreciative of that.

[Amy Arnott]

So we've seen some articles in the media about, you know, people moving into cash or gold based on kind of fear and panic. Do you see a lot of people doing that or do you think that trend is maybe overstated?

[Eric Simonson]

I can only speak to our clients. I can't say, you know, for folks who are not working with a financial professional in any capacity. I don't know what they're doing, but definitely within our clients and other financial planners who I've spoken with, I think that that clients have brought it up. They've said, hey, should I be doing this? But then the advisor can quickly say yes or no. But in our case, no. Gold's typically not a great long term investment, so we shouldn't add it in as a long term part of your portfolio. And I want to mention too that that was one of the things as an advice only financial planner that I was really curious about. Hey, would clients kind of go rogue on me? And I started a Bundo at the end of 2019, which was right before COVID And I was really encouraged that during that Covid crash, nobody did anything irrational, anything without talking to me. And so that gave me confidence. Even though clients are in charge of the portfolios, they're the ones that have the access and the control over it. They're still relying on us to guide them through what is the right long term thing for them. And so I think that's similar with what we're seeing now. You know, clients are definitely asking questions, they're curious. But yeah, nobody is. You know, we're not checking in on them and all of a sudden they're 100% in gold. That is not happening.

[Christine Benz]

Well, speaking of clients going rogue, I'm curious, do you ever allow for kind of the mad money portfolio? If the client wants to own something that you don't really think makes good financial sense, do you allow them scratch that itch with a small portion of the portfolio, or do you generally try to discourage that?

[Eric Simonson]

Oh, for sure, we, we let people do that. I mean, that's a lot of people, especially younger people, that can be their outlet. You know, that little 5% exposures that they have maybe to individual stocks, that can be the thing that then allows them to stay the course on everything else because they feel like they're able to kind of do what they want over there. So yeah, you know, it's definitely not like the majority of our clients, but, but 10 to 20% have a small portfolio. That's not as. It's not like crazy crazy. But yeah, they're doing the mad money stuff, if you will.

[Amy Arnott]

One question that's been top of mind for a lot of investors is whether they should increase their exposure to stocks outside of the US and at least so far in 2025, we're seeing international stocks, stocks finally pull ahead of stocks in the U.S. do you have thoughts on how people should approach that decision or kind of a baseline recommendation in terms of percentage of stocks you would want to have in the U.S. versus outside of the U.S.

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, I remember vividly about a year ago, we were doing a webinar for clients and we were showing them this chart that was showing international investing versus US investing and how US investments just had outperformed so much over the preceding 10 years or whatever it was. But everything was cyclical. There's periods of time where the international outperforms. And so we were actually showing that chart as a reminder that, hey, don't just go all in on the U.S. like, we're recommending it international for a reason. And so it's been really interesting to, yeah, see that pendulum shift so much in the last four months. And so we have always recommended, we haven't changed our weighting in international just recently. We've always recommended, you know, if somebody were going to be 100% in stocks, for example, I would say reasonably 20 to 25% should be international. That number would go down, obviously, if you start adding in bonds to the portfolio. But that would be a good starting point. But if you've got, if a client is really, really interested in international investing, we could tick it up a little bit. But yeah, that's a good starting point.

[Christine Benz]

You mentioned inflation protection and it seems like inflationary worries are running high right now. You mentioned TIPS as a means of addressing inflation risk. Are there any other things that you think of in the toolkit when you're talking to clients about how you are defending against inflation?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, honestly, it's staying invested. The best hedge against inflation long term has been the stock market. And that can be a really hard thing to hear during times like right now, but it's a good reminder to say, like, hey, really, your best chance of keeping up or beating inflation is to just make sure you're not, you're not going to cash, you're not doing anything like that in your portfolio, and you're just staying invested for the long term. That is a conversation that we have all the time with folks, and that's probably the biggest beyond tips. We're not looking at any type of more exotic inflation hedges.

[Amy Arnott]

But yeah, another issue that a lot of people have been thinking about is whether bonds can still fill their traditional role as a buffer asset or portfolio diversifier. And we've had some days in the market recently when stocks have been down, but simultaneously treasury yields have spiked up. Do you have a view about that pattern and can we still Expect bonds to fill their role as a diversifier against equity risk.

[Eric Simonson]

Boy, I wish I could see fully into the future on that one. I have to go off of history on this and say that I do think it will stay as a great diversifier and a great hedge to stocks. As you both know, with bonds being so tied to interest rates, eventually if there is an economic slowdown, if, if the Federal Reserve is forced to lower rates, that is when bonds are going to outperform and that is also when usually the stock market is probably going to underperform. And so that could be the time where they really shine and that's when you want them in your portfolio. So, yeah, we're not encouraging people to do away with bonds by any means. I think it's a good time to be thinking about them in a portfolio.

[Christine Benz]

A related question is kind of the household capital allocation question about people. I'm guessing some of your younger clients probably have mortgages with fairly high rates attached to them, maybe newer mortgages. Can you talk about how you address whether they should prepay those mortgages? How do you tackle that problem and kind of think about total household capital allocation?

[Eric Simonson]

I would also give you a bunch of heart emojis for this question as well, because I think it's a great one. Yeah, I love talking to clients about high interest debt because yeah, for somebody with an 8% mortgage right now, I think there is a really, really strong argument to be made to start paying that down more aggressively than you otherwise would. And really the easiest calculation, it's not perfect, but the easiest calculation is just that interest rate on your mortgage. If it's not a tax deduction for you, or if it is right, you just figure out what is the actual true cost of that interest and then you compare it to what can we reasonably expect long term in the stock market. And if your cost is 8%, that's a pretty decent long term rate to lock in on that savings. And there's other benefits to actually paying down the mortgage more quickly. It frees up that mortgage payment more quickly, which might help you with that retirement projection a little bit. So, yes, high interest car loans, high interest mortgages, high interest credit card debt. That is a great time to be looking at allocating some dollars towards that.

[Amy Arnott]

So not related to financial planning. On Ubundo's website, you note that you're huge travel nerds at the firm and one of your personal specialties is travel hacking. What are one or two of your top tips there?

[Eric Simonson]

Yeah, we, we are. And getting back to that budget conversation and talking to clients about their values. As part of that, we're also looking at, okay, where are you spending your most money? And if you are spending a lot of money on dining out, for example, we make sure that they have the right credit card to kind of optimize that spend. And my favorite for dining out is the American Express Gold card. It's not like the Delta Gold card. It's not tied to any airline. It's just the true American Express Gold card. And what I love about it is it gives me 4 points per dollar on all dining out. It gives me 4 points per dollar on groceries. And that can be a really huge point accrual benefit to me. So we're oftentimes, you know, telling clients to go, go get that card. Again, we're not, we're not incentivized, we're not getting any sort of referral bonus to tell them that. But we still want them to have the best card for them. So that would be one. Just really look at your cards and just figure out what are your biggest spending categories and do you have the best card for that? And then the second thing would be where most people get stuck with their points is they'll have a decent amount of points, 100,000, 200,000. But then they'll go and they'll use the points on the credit card portal. And when you do that, you lose, you lose a little bit of the potential that you otherwise have with them. What I would much rather folks do is actually look at what partners does that credit card have to transfer to. So for example, like Chase, you can transfer your points to United, you can transfer your points to Southwest, you can transfer your points to Hyatt. And an easy one would be like, there are plenty of Hyatt hotels where you can stay now for 8,000 points a night or 10,000 points a night, when that room might actually cost three or $400 a night. So if you did that, you know, you're getting three or four cents per point. Whereas through the portal, if you, if you, you know, didn't transfer your points, you're only going to get typically $0.01 per point. So just explore. Yeah, are there some sweet spots on where I can transfer my points to, to get the most value with my spend?

[Christine Benz]

I have a lot of follow up questions on what you just said, Eric, but I wanted to ask one question about points that they can stack up. And I think what many of us are seeing is that with inflation, it's requiring a lot more points. To do things than it once did. So flights require a ton of points to fly free. How would you suggest people approach that? Should they use them as soon as possible or stack them up for some rainy day? How should people triangulate that, that problem?

[Eric Simonson]

Yep, there has been a lot of point inflation for sure. Mostly because there's more people nowadays trying to find these deals and if there's more competition for these flights. So I would say yes, a bad thing to do is to just hoard points and, you know, have 2, 3 million points. You're probably not going to serve yourself well to do that. But at the same time, you still want to have enough points to achieve your desired outcome. And so, for example, if maybe you're hoping to fly a business class to Europe or to Asia, you know you're going to need 150, 200,000 points to do that. So you want to make sure you get to that amount at least. But I would say, Christine, to kind of combat this inflation, what we're talking to clients about is just trying to be as flexible as they can. So it's true that, you know, the average flight nowadays is more. There are still sales, there are still sweet spots. I remember a couple months ago we were seeing flights to Europe for 10,000 points, which was just insane. And that was happening in 2025. And so just staying kind of flexible to jump on a deal when they come would be probably more of a priority now than ever before.

[Christine Benz]

Well, Eric, this has been a wonderful conversation. Really great to get travel tips and hear about your firm as well as the advice only network. Thank you so much for being here.

[Eric Simonson]

Well, thank you both for having me. I really loved our conversation and I appreciate you guys having me on.

[Amy Arnott]

Thanks so much. Eric.

[Christine Benz]

Thank you for joining us on the Longview. If you could please take a moment to subscribe to and rate the podcast on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow me on social media hristinebenz on X or Christine Benz on.

[Amy Arnott]

LinkedIn and at Amy Arnott on LinkedIn.

[Christine Benz]

George Cassidy is our engineer for the podcast and Carrie Gretchik produces the show Notes each week. Finally, we'd love to get your feedback. If you have a comment or a guest idea, please email [e-mail] until next time. Thanks for joining us.

[Morningstar Disclosure]

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[Eric Simonson]

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[Eric Simonson]

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