← Liftoff with Keith: Conversations with Super Founders and Growth Experts sharing useful insights
Liftoff with Keith: Conversations with Super Founders and Growth Experts sharing useful insights
Ari Gootnick on Founder Burnout: Why Performance Drops Before You Crash
00:33:02
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hey, we got Ari Gutnick here from Loom and the topic of the conversation is, you know, we're going to hit a few topics. We're going to talk about founders underperform before Burnout. We're going to talk about motivation versus capacity, how to actually improve founder performance. And those are just a couple of the things. But I mean, we were talking earlier, Ari. It's such an interesting time because the pace of innovation, you know, the AI tidal wave notwithstanding, I mean, there's an expectation that, oh, we're all going so much faster and that that would also mean we're more productive, we're gaining more satisfaction, we're all growing more. Personally, those might be wishful thinking as much as anything. First, welcome to Liftoff. And let's get into it, huh?
- [00:57]
B
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Let's, let's jump in. I'm excited to be here.
- [01:02]
A
So share with us about Loom and the origin. What are your thoughts and things that you're seeing today?
- [01:07]
B
Yeah, so, you know, Looms was an idea that was sparked a couple years ago. I was working for a fast growing scaling tech company that I won't name, but I was growing quite quickly with the business and I actually experienced burnout myself and I fell into a bit of a dark place. I, you know, I was, I was burnt out, I was depressed and so I left that business. And to get me out of this funk that I was in, I actually surrounded myself with a group of coaches. So I brought in a career and executive coach and a health coach. And that was sort of the appetite of what Loom eventually became when I, myself and my co founder decided to get into the executive coaching space. So Loom essentially is a, what we call a performance lab for founders. And we treat founder performance like a measurable operating system, not a personality trait. And so the offering is for it has four components. One is every founder gets matched with a leadership founder or executive coach. The second thing is that we call it health optimization. We have specialized coaches across six domains that sleep, nutrition, exercise, financial well being, longevity and focus and flow. The third thing is peer to peer groups. So founders and executives who are on our platform, we put them in containers to share in workshop ideas, overcome challenges, share vulnerably with one another so they feel supported. Then the fourth thing is that, you know, it's hard to actually measure ROI in these environments, right? Coaching health optimization, it's hard to actually measure the data and what's actually happening and helping you progress or reach your goals. And so we actually bring data into this experience where we ask questions and we give our members surveys throughout their coaching journey so they could actually measure qualitatively and quantitatively their progress throughout their coaching engagement. So that's a little bit about loom and what we do. And so we're solving quite a bit. We see a lot of success stories. But I'll pause there and see if you have any questions.
- [03:59]
A
Of course I have questions. That's my job. Right. Listen, I find it fascinating, but maybe we need to take a step back before we dive in deeper. How big is this problem? There's thousands of startups, you know, a lot of them are in the air. World robotics, world VR, world. I know you focus on startups primarily, which I get it because you deal with a lot of first time founders and that frenetic pace that startups try to maintain. Right now we're Talking about the 666, 90, whatever these phrases are coming up. But, but give us some context for that.
- [04:33]
B
Yeah, 100%. Well, I'll, I'll let you know that today there are more founders and entrepreneurs than ever before. And that's primarily because of the AI revolution and the economy right now. And burnout. Depression anxiety is most like common for entrepreneurs and founders because they are under incredible pressure by their investors, making, you know, selling their business, selling their products, you know, creating a successful culture, not having someone to, you know, guide them through their, their entrepreneurial journey. This is a huge issue. Burnout is one of the most common things we see among founders, specifically in Silicon Valley and beyond.
- [05:26]
A
Right. And in terms of your practice, how do you, how do you get things started? Like, give me an example of what that would look like. You gave me the, the modules and it makes great sense. I love the combination of the executive coaching, the, the health perspective, which I imagine is diet, exercise and, and some of the other elements.
- [05:47]
B
Yeah, so the pro, like you're, you're asking about the process a little bit about how you bring people in. So yeah, so founders, you know, what's
- [05:57]
A
it look like, who's what when a founder joins? What's it look like the first 30 days?
- [06:02]
B
100%. So first of all, we need to kind of define why they're looking for coaching. The number one thing is really work, life, balance, burnout, just slower decision, velocity. They have foggy brain, they are emotionally dysregulated, they're having a hard time building a culture, managing hard conversations. And a lot of times founders are pushing, pushing, pushing. Right. They believe that they Are, you know, the way to solve some of these, these problems or challenges that they're experiencing is to actually work harder. And they come to. So that's one reason they come to us. The second reason is just tactically.
- [06:55]
A
Yeah.
- [06:55]
B
Have coaches that are, you know, our coaches are specifically previous founders or operators. And so there's really two reasons why they come to us. One is helping with their business growth. Two is how do they approach their business mentally and emotionally. And so the first 30 days looks like, you know, they get onboarded, they go through a robust onboarding process. So we could get a snapshot of where they are, who they are, what their challenges are, how their business is doing, what are their goals, not only over the next three to six months, but within 20, 30, 40, 50 plus years. We want to make sure that we're matching them with a coach that really, you know, specializes in what this founder is looking for. They get matched with a coach, they can allocate sessions to work with a health coach, and they begin to really see breakthroughs after typically their second session with their executive coach. Which I'm happy to share more about.
- [08:02]
A
Yeah, no, you're sharing great. One of the phrases I wanted to ask you about is hustle culture.
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B
Yes.
- [08:10]
A
There's acknowledgement there. I mean, it's deeply embedded in how founders think about effort and identity. Right. So how do you have the conversation with a founder who equates, you know, grinding with commitment, who sees slowing down as weakness?
- [08:25]
B
Yeah, I think like we, we look at founders as like Olympic athletes. Right. You know, and a lot of, you know, folks believe that, you know, in order to succeed as a founder, you have to push harder. You get, you, you have less sleep, you're higher stress, you make worse decisions. But a lot of first time founders increase effort and mature founders really increase capacity. It's actually about really managing your nervous system, managing your emotional and mental states as a founder in order to really successfully lead a business, create a culture, and most importantly, enjoy the founder journey, enjoy what you're doing. And that's why we create an ecosystem to support the founder really in various fields, in various domains.
- [09:32]
A
It sounds a little bit about like the quality versus quantity, right? Is that what we're talking about a little bit when you talk about capacity?
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B
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, founders tend to push the limits of their abilities, right?
- [09:53]
A
They,
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B
they push the limits within their work life balance. They're working more than their, than their, they have capacity for. They're, they're, they're sacrificing Their health and well being, they're not taking care of themselves.
- [10:12]
A
And one of the. Okay, please finish.
- [10:15]
B
No, go ahead.
- [10:15]
A
I was going to say it's interesting because, I mean, admitting you have the problem or identifying that you have this as a challenge might be the biggest hurdle to overcome.
- [10:26]
B
Say that again.
- [10:28]
A
Identifying that you have this as a problem as a founder. Right. Like, I'm starting to deal with these issues and it's probably one of the highest hurdles.
- [10:39]
B
It's probably the. Yeah, I think having the awareness is the first step here. Right.
- [10:46]
A
So what are some of the signals, Ari? Is there a like, hey, check yourself before you wreck yourself?
- [10:52]
B
Yeah. I mean, burnout is the final symptom. So performance is usually the thing that starts to decay over time and then you get burnt out.
- [11:06]
A
Can you unpack a little bit more? I mean.
- [11:08]
B
Yeah. So like.
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A
Well, how would I recognize that in a. What are some of the common things my, my audience will find and relate to if they see themselves or someone else?
- [11:18]
B
Yeah, you're having, you know, slower decision velocity, so you're not making decisions as fast as you probably can. You're having a hard time actually weighing a lot of options. It's process. I think you are thinking and not mentally as clear as you know you can get. You have emotional volatility. You are having imposter syndrome. And start to experience this as a decline of your own potential, of your own performance. And you kind of hit a threshold where you actually get to a place where you say, I need some support.
- [12:11]
A
Right.
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B
And I can't normally from my investors because they're tied to my business. I can't get support from my co founders because they work too closely with me. And of course, I can't really get support from my employees.
- [12:27]
A
So they, I push, I push back a little bit. Okay. I think you get, I think you get support. I don't think you get sufficient support.
- [12:35]
B
Yes.
- [12:35]
A
If I'm a good investor, I want my founder to have peak performance. And I may tell them, hey, step away from the, from the chat bot. You know, go, go take a break, go on a vacation. But I may not be at that point where I say, go take six months off and, you know, take this course or go hire a full time coach. So those might be some of the challenges. So let me turn it back to the conversation around these frameworks that you laid out, the six elements. Right?
- [13:04]
B
Yeah, sure.
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A
So without giving away, you know, your secret sauce, what are the one or two levers that move the needle most for founders when it comes to sustained focus and energy and, and why?
- [13:20]
B
Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I spoke to a coach recently which was really interesting and, and she encourages all of her, all of her coaches to actually do a three day retreat by your, by themselves. And I, uh, you know, you could take off a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. A founder could potentially, you know, could do that, right? Sure. It's, it's doable. And she really shared with me that the secret sauce is really to slow down first, you know, slow down and become aware of, of what's working and what's not working. Right. And so, and then you start to identify what is in your control and what is out of your control. When you're a founder, there's a lot of things that are out of your control, including the success of your business. And so you begin to get aware of that. Wow. It's not about necessarily hustling and working harder, but maybe this is about biology. My emotional regulation, my glucose levels, my sleep. That's why we have the health optimization piece. This could be cognition. Maybe you have to design your day differently, right? There might be moments where you do deep work or moments where you, or you reduce the amount of meetings you're in or you reduce the amount of context switching. There's actually data that shows that when you context switch, you are literally less happy as an individual because you're scattered, your brain isn't working at its optimal level. And then, you know, there's strategic leverage of, of there's energy based scheduling. Right. You can schedule your day to, you know, ensure that you're gaining energy and not draining it.
- [15:26]
A
And so I was just going to ask you that. I, I made a note that you talk about designing sustainable intensity. Like, I like that, that sounds great, but how do I know when I did it? Like how, when, when am I there?
- [15:42]
B
Yeah, well, it's, it's hard. And that's where the awareness piece comes in. You know, when you join Loom we, you go through a number of onboarding surveys so you can identify some of these things. We have people do a, a energy audit, right. We, so they can identify what's bringing them energy throughout their day and what's draining those.
- [16:05]
A
I like that.
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B
We do enneagrams to better understand your personality and leadership type. We created our own founder performance questionnaire that really identifies, you know, what are your strengths as a founder, as a leader and what are your weaknesses. We actually have questionnaires that you can share with colleagues, previous managers, previous colleagues, previous employees, family and friends that can help you identify some of your strengths and weaknesses. And so we take all of this information, we bring this into the coaching engagement and so your coach can properly really support you in the areas that, you know, they see a through pattern on by, you know, with some of these answers and responses to some of these things.
- [16:58]
A
Hey, that is great, Ari. I'd like to get into some of the practicality of what you're building there now. Give me a little perspective with, with. Where are you with your business? You, you're now actually running a startup. Coaching startup. Right. So how long have you been around? How many customers have you worked with? Is there like a graduation process or people with completed programs just to try to help you build some context around the business?
- [17:27]
B
Yeah. So I would say Loom has been around for a year and a half now. We've served over 200 founders. So it's not a scaling huge, big business. But you know, we are growing quite quickly and that's because we're seeing more founders having the awareness that they need some guidance. Especially solo entrepreneurs who might have a co founder to lean on, which, which
- [17:56]
A
is vogue right now too. Right. Having smaller teams that scale super fast.
- [18:00]
B
Yeah. A lot of folks are, you know, outsourcing to AI. They're outsourcing their operations to platforms that can do it for them. Their teams are a lot leaner and so they're solo entrepreneurs. There might be first time founders. You know, we specifically, you know, we specifically serve a founder from a pre. At the stage of a pre seed all the way through series B. And so we're affordable for a founder who's at that early stage, who needs that guidance. Yeah, and, and yeah.
- [18:38]
A
How do you manage? So you're based in La La Land, right?
- [18:42]
B
Like remote.
- [18:44]
A
But you're based in Lala, right?
- [18:46]
B
What do you mean by that?
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A
La?
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B
Oh yeah. I'm based in Los Angeles.
- [18:52]
A
Okay. Come on. You can call it La La Land. There was a movie. It made it official.
- [18:56]
B
It was, it was. But I was, I was like, we're also remote. So I didn't know if that was.
- [19:00]
A
Well, I was going. That's why I was going to ask how much of this should happen in person versus virtual. And then how do you facilitate the virtual to make it that a more personal experience? As I, as I'm talking with a coach, the difference of being in the same place versus being on a call.
- [19:18]
B
Yeah, I mean look, I think in person is always number one. Right. I heard you can't, you can't beat in person. That goes to coaching therapy, spending time with your family. Yeah, beyond, beyond the coaching engagement. Friends, colleagues, building relationships. But you know, our coaches receive a lot of information upfront before they jump into their coaching engagement and jump into their first session.
- [19:47]
A
And what qualifies a coach to become a coach with you?
- [19:51]
B
Yeah, so we have, it's a really good question. All of our coaches have previous operating experience, 10 plus years of operating experience. Whether that's a founder or an operator. They're all certified coaches from a top tier coaching, you know, program. And they all sort of are a culture fit really. They believe in our mission, they believe in helping founders both tactically and emotionally and mentally. And they have the, they have the skills to do so.
- [20:28]
A
And then you do the matching based on. Okay, I understand what this founder really needs and I understand what I have available among my coaching roster.
- [20:36]
B
Yeah, we have a bench of coaches and with, and we also have like a network outside of our, our existing core bench that we have access to, but we have, we collect a lot of information on our, on our members before we match them. And then it allows that coach to provide really, really deep level, like a ton of value right in their first session and coaching compounds. Right. You know, it's every session you become, not only do you build a incredible rapport with your coach, but you're also having deeper and more valuable conversations about yourself and it. So the value of coaching compounds. And that's why we see, you know, we have three month and six month engagements, but we, 10 we, but the average founder is actually staying on our platform for over a year because they know how valuable having a coach in their corner can be.
- [21:42]
A
Yeah, Ari, I've done some work for some VC firms, PE firms, accelerators and the like, and I see more movement toward this type of, of service that they want to be part of, either directly or indirectly. So connecting to that. So I don't know if you spent a lot of time in that area and building partnerships, but I think that'd be something to pursue. The other thought that I had was, were the coaches compensated in any way besides, you know, feeling good about, you know, helping another founder? Is there some financial compensation?
- [22:20]
B
Yeah, there, there is financial compensation which I don't want to share publicly, but yeah, the coaches are making, you know, are, are, are being compensated well on our platform and that's because of the quality that we, that we set the bar at. Right. You know, there's, there's a spectrum of, of coaches out there and you know, we want to maintain a high quality coaching Bench so folks can really feel confident in joining Loom and getting matched with one of our coaches.
- [22:56]
A
And a lot of times with that early stage startup founder, they don't exactly have, you know, that seed round or this, that series A secured yet. How do you help somebody that's a little tight on financial too? Is there some starter package or again, I'm not digging into your prices either, but is there some idea of what that would cost to get started?
- [23:19]
B
Yeah, I think most people, especially founders, sometimes they start with they, they sometimes look for a coach because they need tactical support. Right. They say, oh my God, I don't know how to do this, I don't know what the next step is for my business. But what they typically come out of their coaching engagement is much more than that. And, and so we actually do have a starter package. It's a three month package and those are really for folks and we've really lowered the barrier of entry for folks who, who've never really, you know, a lot of those people who sign up for those that package haven't really had a previous coaching engagement. And so we give them that opportunity at a lower price point. They get matched with their coach, they have about six sessions, they see some breakthroughs both within their business, we and within themselves. And.
- [24:23]
A
Well, I was going to ask. Sorry to interrupt. Ari, I was going to ask you. Right, right. On that point, what's the most surprising finding that's come out of the diagnostics that you run or that early stage engagement with a founder that they don't expect to hear?
- [24:38]
B
Yeah, I mean, there's a few things. One on the tactical side is like, we've seen some big success stories. We had an early stage business that tripled in revenue. We had a very early stage founder who, you know, with their coach, you know, found the confidence and conviction to pivot their entire business to something new. We had, I spoke to someone recently who decided to get a pet, you know, because of the emotional support that they needed as a family, working from home as a solo entrepreneur. And that's just a funny one that I wanted to throw in. But yeah, on the emotional and mental side, you get people who start to align more closely with their business. You get folks who overcome imposter syndrome. They form more conviction around their decisions. I've had folks that have repaired relationships with their co founders, which is the number one reason beyond, you know, just not, you know, having a successful idea. The number one reason why a company folds is co founder conflicts. Absolutely, absolutely.
- [25:54]
A
I'll double click on that this is
- [25:55]
B
really an opportunity for folks to get the support they need to really get to from a, from A precede to a C to a series A.
- [26:08]
A
So I should mention, I should mention to our audience that you're a documentary filmmaker, you're a yoga and breathwork facilitator. Obviously you know the tech world well, you, you had this experience, but so are you following your own playbook? Are you keeping balance and doing your daily alms and etc.
- [26:35]
B
Yeah. You know, I think when I first started this business I actually fell into a similar trap that a lot of founders were falling into who come to our, who to. To our platform for. I was hustling, I was working late, I was, had decision fatigue. I, you know, felt, you know, as a solo entrepreneur, I felt, I felt lonely at the top and I was really leaning in and not taking care of myself. But you know, working with a coach myself and having that awareness. After three months of really starting and building this, this business, I shifted and came back to my roots of, of doing breath work, practicing that, you know, as I studied breath work for about, you know, a year with someone, you know, who, who has been doing that full time for a while. Same with yoga. You know, I love movies. As you mentioned, I'm a documentary filmmaker as well in the past. So these are things that I had to begin to incorporate into my life again to create a more sustainable version of myself. You know, like, you know, hustle is visible effort and sustainability and sustainable intensity is long term dominance. Like we, we. You know, the goal isn't to necessarily work less, it's to sustain elite output, you know, over the course of a long term, you know, founder journey.
- [28:26]
A
Ari, this is, this is really helpful. I'm going through my mind, all the different applications and again I'm going through the founders that I've worked with over the last two years as an advisor or a mentor, angel investor, what have you. But I, I can definitely see where this would help and, and be appropriate. How can people find out a little bit more about, about the company?
- [28:50]
B
Yeah, so our company website is join-loom l.com we're also on LinkedIn, TikTok, Instagram. Join-loom is our handle and so they can follow us there. I'm also open for to connect on LinkedIn just with my full name.
- [29:12]
A
That's awesome. Thanks for doing that. Let me ask you one question as my lightning round. I know I'm taking a little bit too much of your time, but what's the first sign A founder is heading toward burnout before they know it themselves.
- [29:27]
B
That's a good one, to be honest with you. They begin to feel unhappy. I think that's the number one thing is they, they begin to feel like, you know, they chose to be a founder because of the flexibility they have, the love of their product, the mission that they can build and control. And there's, you know, a stereotype where or, or sort of a this idea that being a founder is like the ultimate, like, job to have. But a lot of times founders become really depressed, they become really anxious, they become unhappy. And so when you start to see signs of that, that's when you, those are the earliest signs of wow, there, there needs to be some change. And maybe I need a coach to help guide me through that.
- [30:17]
A
Well, I don't want to end on that question now. So I have one more. What's the one thing you'll tell every founder in our audience to do differently starting tomorrow?
- [30:29]
B
Oh, that's a, that's a good question. Yes, I think it's to make time, to slow down, to step back. You know, I think so many founders are in the weeds of their business. They're working in their business, not on their business. One of them to do that is to step back from the day to day, step back from the decisions, step back from everything and kind of find some, you know, and kind of have some awareness of what's going on in your body, what's going on with your health and well being, what's going on with your cognitive abilities. And so with that awareness, they can make the changes that they need to make. And that's what ultimately will make the journey of a founder more enjoyable, more, more purposeful, more, more mission driven and just overall a happier and more joyful experience.
- [31:23]
A
Yeah, I think that's a great. I mean, I used to use that line slow down to speed up.
- [31:29]
B
Yes.
- [31:30]
A
I got bored with that saying that. And then I was stealing everything else from John Wooden, who is, is obviously ucla, baby. You see a lady, he, he, he reflects a lot of what you discussing too. So if you haven't read any of his observations and reflections, he's got some great books too.
- [31:50]
B
Yeah, the Pyramid of Success. I have assigned a pyramid of Success that's on my, on my desk. And so, yeah, big.
- [32:00]
A
The wizard of Westwood.
- [32:02]
B
Yes, the wizard of Westwood. Go Bruins, man.
- [32:06]
A
So we got it. We got to unpack all of this great stuff. But I want to just say thank you because as we always want to, the latest technology and the trends and the, you know, all this great stuff, which you and I have been part of, it's good to step back and realize it's really about leave leading a quality life, that you can accomplish your goals and feel like you've really done something special. Whether you wake up excited, you go to bed a little tired. I mean, those are the best feelings. Right. And I think that's something we don't spend enough time thinking about. Appreciate you sharing those thoughts. Good luck on the business and your own startup. Maintain that balance.
- [32:46]
B
Yeah. Keith, thank you so much. I. It was a joy talking about this and. And having a conversation with you. It. It was. It was a pleasure.
- [32:54]
A
Yeah, My pleasure. Thank you very much.
- [32:56]
B
Awesome. Thank you.
- [32:57]
A
All right. Go Bruins.
- [32:59]
B
Go Bruins.