← Liftoff with Keith: Conversations with Super Founders and Growth Experts sharing useful insights
Liftoff with Keith: Conversations with Super Founders and Growth Experts sharing useful insights
Evangelist and Entrepreneur Wizard Guy Kawasaki (Apple, Canva) joins The Look Back
00:34:35
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. We are ending the year in style. I got the look back, welcoming Guy Kawasaki to the show. Welcome, Guy. You're looking well.
- [00:17]
B
Wow. You know, it's amazing what AI can do.
- [00:22]
A
Where are we actually finding you today? What island?
- [00:25]
B
What? What island? The island of California, which is used to be part of the United States until November 2024.
- [00:33]
A
We are working on that annexation plan. Are you. Are you leading that effort?
- [00:38]
B
Well, you know, it's a fine line between annexation and secession.
- [00:47]
A
We could be talking about some things that sound like fiction but could become reality. Who knows?
- [00:52]
B
I. I think California is going to merge with Canada, Panama and Mexico.
- [00:59]
A
What about Greenland? Can we fit them?
- [01:01]
B
Oh, yeah, Greenland. Greenland, that's right. We like Danish food.
- [01:05]
A
Oh, gosh, that's too funny. Hey, let me do a quick context. I know you said you were doing something in the background there. Let me just set a quick context for a minute here. So, Guy Kawasaki, young kid from Hawaii, grew up there, jumps off his surfboard and heads out to California, spends some time at Stanford, heads over to ucla, where I grew up in that hood, then heads up to Silicon Valley where he lands a job at Apple and then gets handpicked to join the Macintosh team, the un. The before Macintosh team, the development team handpicked by Steve Jobs to work on this group of. And the rest is kind of at least a big chapter of your life with. I mean, that was just such an amazing story. But then you. You go over. By the way, you can fact check all this when I'm done. Then the author of the Art of the Star.
- [02:00]
B
You'Re doing a more thorough job than the job they did on Matt Gaetz's background, so I wouldn't worry about it.
- [02:08]
A
Wait a sec. I'm not. I have a dark file here that I might get into. We'll see. Here's the host of your host of Remarkable People podcast, which is fantastic. All these books, you have your famous 10 slides for startups to go raise money, which I. I use, you know, quite often. I should be paying you a royalty for that, but I don't.
- [02:26]
B
You should be.
- [02:27]
A
I know, but I'm gladly. I don't advice. And if anyone's out there that needs to go raise money, make sure you understand the importance of messaging clarity. Less words, man. More. More action. Be super clear. And then your work at Canva, which is phenomenal. What you had to work for an Australian company, I guess for the island trips to Australia.
- [02:48]
B
And it's because I like Vegemite so much.
- [02:53]
A
Guy, welcome to the podcast. I know it's been. We're already. We're already alluding to it, but what a fun time to catch you at the very end of 2024. How. How was 2024 for you?
- [03:06]
B
That's a very loaded question. Let's just say it got bad at the end.
- [03:12]
A
Yeah, okay. I. I think I. I resemble that remark. You've had a. A phenomenal run, and I know you're being modest, but did any professional highlights stick out for you as you, you know, think back over the year and some of the things that you saw and did.
- [03:34]
B
You know what I mean, Keith? Compared to the old days where I used to make 50 to 75 speeches a year, you know, I probably made in person maybe five in 2024, I basically turned on almost every speaking engagement. My youngest son goes to the University of Hawaii. So if any of you are doing an event in Hawaii, that is one place I will go to. And I gotta tell you, Keith, Hawaiian Airlines has a direct flight from San Jose to Honolulu. And, And I hate to use the S word, but when you get on that flight, you have free Starlink, very fast Internet access for six hours. And I just watch YouTube videos for six hours using Starlink. And it kills me that I'm helping Uncle Elon, but, you know, sometimes you gotta just bend the rules. So you asked about highlights, and I, you know, I had a new book come out called think remarkable. In 2024, I did 52 episodes of my podcast. I surfed probably 200 times. I'm kind of in a semi retirement state where I turn most things down and I don't do any investment anymore. I found at the end of 2024, I fell in love with this really great iOS app, and it's called Holo. Holo. H O L O. H O L O. That's the Hawaiian word for wander. And, you know, to, you know, check it out and cruise around. And what this app does is it. It takes your iPhone photos for the day and puts them in a timeline, assigns a location to them, and instantly creates kind of a pictorial journal of your day. And I take so many photos. It's so useful. So you guys out there check out Holo. Holo, H O L O. H O L O In the App Store, guy.
- [05:37]
A
That's a fantastic shout out. I'm playing around with all these new AI apps and my agents, but this is. That sounds super fun. And the new camera on the iPhone is just amazing, too.
- [05:47]
B
Yeah, it really is. And, you know, down the water, the app or the Phone.
- [05:55]
A
The phone.
- [05:57]
B
Not on purpose.
- [06:02]
A
All right, let me get into a couple other questions. I. I scribbled down. It's always great to chat with you, man, and we've known each other for quite a while. But the term. I've never asked you about the term evangelist. Who came up with that? How did that come up? You were known as the chief evangelist at. From Apple and Macintosh.
- [06:22]
B
Well, I think it was God, actually. I mean, you know, there was Jesus, and then there was a 1984 year gap, and. And then there was Mike Boychan guy as a second and third software evangelists. And I love the.
- [06:43]
A
I love the connection, because selling technology, man, it does require a religious fervor and spirit to you. And you gotta bring the energy, but also that you're doing more than selling. You're like, okay, how'd that change the world attitude? Which was. Which was.
- [07:00]
B
You guys started that, well, you know, back in 1984. It's. It's hard to explain these to people who weren't even born in 1984. But in 1984, if you had a correctable typewriter, you were hot, right? And if you had an Apple II or Mississippi DOS machine, you were really hot. But then you see Mac paint and Mac, right, and you're using a mouse, and it's all graphical user interface. And it was a freaking religious experience. And, you know, I keep telling people that the root word evangelism comes from Greece, and it means bringing the good news. So what an evangelist does is bring the good news. I brought the good news of Macintosh. It would make you more creative and productive. I'm bringing the good news of Canva, that it makes you a better communicator. I just brought you the good news of Holo. Holo that'll make you have the world's coolest pictorial journals that you can share every day in one step. So that's what an evangelist does. And I'm telling you, 90% of being a good evangelist is you have to evangelize good shit because it's easy to evangelize good shit, and it's hard to evangelize shit.
- [08:18]
A
Plus, you lose credibility, too, right? You're a brand yourself, right? And you want to. You want to be representing quality and truth, right?
- [08:28]
B
Well, one would hold.
- [08:30]
A
Well, you had to be very discerning, discriminating when you chose to work with Canva. How has that changed from. In. In that role? How's it changed from 80s to 20s?
- [08:44]
B
Well, I mean, you know, evangelism in that sense hasn't Changed that much. It's to find or be found or something that makes people's lives better. And if you do that, then, you know, I could evangelize Canva, obviously, Macintosh. I can certainly evangelize AI. I mean, generally AI, but, you know, some specific platforms too. It's all about, you know, it's. Evangelism is not about, you know, what's good for me, it's about what's good for you. And Macintosh is good for you. Canva is good for you. AI is good for you. Holo. Holo is good for you. So that's the, the difference between evangelism and sales, where sales is often about what's good for me, my commission, my bonus.
- [09:36]
A
How does it work in today's org structure, let's say an early stage startup company, should they have a evangelist in that role or should all of sales be transformed into really being the evangelist?
- [09:47]
B
Well, that's a very complex question because I think that everybody in an organization should be evangelistic. Right. You should all believe, whether you, if you're the shipping clerk or the front desk, you should believe that Canva makes a difference, that Holo, Holo makes a difference, that Macintosh makes a difference. So everybody has to be evangelistic about what you do. But there should be some people who are specifically tasked with spreading the good news. Typically they're in the marketing department. It's not the same thing as sales because, you know, it's. It's hard to measure how effective you were spreading the good news compared to writing up a purchase order. So it's not as quantitative.
- [10:40]
A
Right, Interesting. So when you look at some of these companies that are starting out, you're looking for marketing, the growth marketing team to be evangelizing the brand and the product and bringing that how it helps you. I still see these companies that tend to lead with their features, that lead with their, you know, their tech and how innovative they are versus what it means as a benefit. Would you, would you see that as well?
- [11:09]
B
Yes, I would say that great marketing isn't about speeds and feeds. It's about. It is about changing people's lives. And if you change people's lives, you probably have pretty good story about speeds and feeds. But you know, what if you just went out and said, you know, I have a new chip that is 16,000 gigahertz. Like, I'm sitting there like, okay, I mean, that's what, what is a GigaHertz? And is 16,000, like 16,000 times higher than the standard? Or, I don't know, I have no idea what 16,000 GHz means. But if you can say that, you know, you, you can instantly make graphics that'll make you a better communicator. And you know, you can make a graphic with canva faster that you can boot Photoshop. I mean, it's kind of obvious that you make people's lives better.
- [12:11]
A
That's a good statement. Why haven't more people leaned into that approach from a marketing and messaging standpoint? They still seem to struggle with getting out of the way of the tech talk.
- [12:23]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, because you know what it. I think a lot of it in technology is because it within the, within the industry. You know, when you say to a bunch of semiconductor people, I got a 16 GHz chip, those people will say, wow. But that's a small community, right? And, and really, I mean, in a sense, I tell you, the test is, can you explain why your product is great to your spouse, not your sp. Now this could be a man explaining to a woman or a woman explaining to a man or a man to a man or a woman to a woman. I gotta, I gotta check all the boxes. It's him, her, they, it, whatever, right? But it, it. Can you explain this to your significant other? And you probably are not gonna open up explaining your product to your spouse by saying, we got 16, 000 gigahertz today. Honey.
- [13:28]
A
You really, you really took this role of evangelism to heart. It seemed custom made for you guy watching you. What was your biggest lesson from back in the. Being back on the Macintosh team that you, that you took forward and, and maybe what's maybe a misconception.
- [13:49]
B
Probably the biggest lesson I learned is that if you focus on what it means to the person, the customer, as opposed to you, that's the path to success. So you have to work backwards from what your customer wants, not what from you want forward. I'll give you a negative example. So in 1975, Kodak invented digital photography. But they didn't go anywhere with digital photography. I think it. Because they were looking forward, right? So we're Kodak. We're a chemical company. We put chemicals on paper, chemicals on film. So we got to get people to buy our chemicals on paper and film. That's working forward. We've been doing this for decades. We've made billions of dollars where Kodak, we're very successful. And then this engineer invents digital photography in the lab. And you, you say to them, you know, well, that's great. You figured out a way for people to not buy our chemicals on paper and film, you know, thank you very much. Go back to your, you know, little cave. Shut the light, shut the door. If you think about it, if you were working backwards from a customer, why were people buying chemicals on paper and film? It's because they wanted to preserve their memories. And is it better to preserve your memories using paper and chemicals or instant feedback on a digital camera? So, you know, if you go and like, visit the Golden Gate Bridge with your analog camera, and then you go back to New Jersey and you take it to the lab and a week later you get your prints back and you say, oh, shit, I had the lens cap on the whole time. I don't have any memories of the Golden Gate Bridge. Yeah, I think it's much better that if you had a phone or a digital camera, you say, wow, I got that. I can share that already. It's in the cloud. It's all safe. And so that's, that's what you got to do. You got to work backwards.
- [15:55]
A
That's, that's invaluable lesson. And if people really need to take that to heart, what about with Steve specifically, that he, that he brought you?
- [16:05]
B
Wow. We could spend a whole day talking about the lessons of Steve Jobs. But one thing I. Some things I learned from him is that, first of all, there are enough people in the world who care about elegance and user interface. Clearly not everybody does, but enough people do. That's one thing. Second thing I learned is that if you can get people to buy into your dream, you know, to, to, to see your philosophy, after that, it's easy to sell them product. If you get them to believe that, you know, power should be readily available, it should be easy to use, easy to learn. If you get people to believe in those kind of things, then you show them a Macintosh, what are they going to say? No, I'd rather use Ms. Dos? No, I don't think so. So that's another thing. I also learned that A players hire A players or A plus players, or at least people who could become A players and A plus players. But when you start hiring B players, they hire people who are C players because they want to feel superior to them. And when you get C players, you get D players and D players, you get E players, and pretty soon you get Z players.
- [17:19]
A
So the A player is looking to bring on somebody that either they don't need to micromanage or they can learn from and continue to chase.
- [17:26]
B
I mean, it should be a source of pride when you look around the room and you say, my God, everybody in this room is better at their job than I am. I mean, how many people have that attitude? That's the attitude you should have.
- [17:38]
A
And Steve would challenge each person with each job thinking he was better than them until they proved him otherwise. Right.
- [17:44]
B
Yeah. Although in Steve's case, you know, many times he was better than all of us.
- [17:49]
A
Yeah. What. While we, we both are huge fans of his. What is, what did he teach you that you don't bring into your general business?
- [17:58]
B
Well, I try not to be an.
- [18:03]
A
And don't be an.
- [18:06]
B
Yeah, but you know what, Keith? If you're going to be an, you should be a mission driven. Because there's two kinds of in the world. So one is all about myself. It's me, myself and I the, you know, Secretary of government efficiency. It's my glorification and all that. The other kind of is I want to create the best computer possible. And you either part of solution or you're part of the problem. And if you're part of the problem, I'm going to run you over. But if you're part of the solution of helping make the best computer, you're on the team. And that's a mission driven, not a ego driven.
- [18:49]
A
I love it. You just gave me a great sound bite for my promotion of this. So let me tell you something guy that I want to share. I've known you enough and we've had enough conversations with business and around other companies that we've talked about. You are a mission driven. Sometimes. You are, you are a truth teller. When you sit down with a company, you've kind of blown me away sometimes with how freaking direct intense you have been. And I think a lot of people can view it as negative. Not quite hostile, but negative to the sense. Holy. What did he just. He just kicked our asses, right? And they look at that and they have the opportunity to look at that positively or negatively. But you've been a truth teller.
- [19:34]
B
Wow, I thought I was always nice, but okay, you have a smile on.
- [19:39]
A
Your face as you're jabbing the knife. But what do you think of that? Is that a fair assessment?
- [19:47]
B
You tell me. I mean, you know, I'm inside my own reality distortion field.
- [19:52]
A
I don't. I think you learn something either at Stanford, UCLA with the Mac team, whatever at birth. And you just tell the truth, no sugar coating. And maybe it's your family. No sugar coating. I'm just gonna tell it how it is and you take it as you like. And this is My experience, I have enough. I have enough background to. To. To be informed enough that I. I feel like. And giving you good advice.
- [20:15]
B
If anything, Keith, I'm getting worse because now I'm 70 years old and I figured, you know, maybe I got a good 10 or 15 years left. And so I'm not gonna be dicking around, you know, trying to make you happy. I'm just gonna tell you what I think. And if you don't like it, life goes on, bra.
- [20:35]
A
Life goes on. And I think the smart people would respect that. That given coming from the person and the source, it's coming from the. To take that and leverage it. That's all my only point. I just. You stand out in that way. As I've sat in a thousand effing meetings, right, with people around, pitches and deck reviews and lali da. You've done 10 times more than me, at least. And it's like, okay, everyone says, yeah, that's nice, we'll call you back. Or that's pretty cool, thank you. And you're like, wait a second. What kind of bullshit.
- [21:07]
B
That's a no.
- [21:10]
A
Or, well, you know, it's also a no when they say, this is interesting. We'll get back to you. Right?
- [21:16]
B
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, are you just hurrying up the process? In a sense, pitching is a lot like dating. And if somebody says to you, oh, yeah, you're interesting, let me get back to you, that means, no, I don't ever want to see you again. You're a loser.
- [21:30]
A
Yeah, let me swipe the other way. I don't know.
- [21:33]
B
Not interesting. Not interesting. Not interesting.
- [21:36]
A
Yeah. What, what is your take on current Apple in the sense. I'll be specific. Tim Cook has been a remarkable in terms of valuation of the company and the overall business. He's been an amazing leader, but very much different than Jobs. Right. Jobs hired him as essentially his operations guy, and he still gets the credit for being a great operations guy, but doesn't get any of the credit for being the innovator, the visionary. Obviously, he's no Steve Jobs still. But even that aside, do you think he's given the proper credit in the view of the innovation that still comes in and is out from Apple?
- [22:17]
B
I mean, how can you argue with his results, right? I mean, you know, I'll tell you something. In the Fortune 500, there's probably 499 other companies would say, yeah, I want operations guy like Tim Cook to make us the most valuable company in the world. Yeah, it's not that great. An innovator. But he's pretty good as an operations guy. Maybe we could have our own Tim Cook. You freaking bet your ass. You would like to have Tim Cook, right? Yeah. You know, imagine if Tim Cook were running Boeing. It would be a whole different place, right? I mean, jeez.
- [22:55]
A
Yeah, I'm sure he's had some interesting calls over the years.
- [22:59]
B
Yeah, I'm sure.
- [23:01]
A
You know, another interesting example would be. Imagine if he left to go work somewhere else at Boeing. And what would happen to Apple? I don't know what the, you know, succession is, but I know what the stock would do. It would be pretty freaking scared.
- [23:16]
B
I don't know if. If Tim Cook went to Boeing, the Boeing airplane would be so great and so fast, but it could only fly 100 miles before it needed to be recharged.
- [23:28]
A
A year in the camp, that says he's been a. He's been innovative as well as operational.
- [23:33]
B
Listen, listen. I'm a freaking unemployed ex evangelist living in Santa Cruz, California. Who the hell am I to judge Tim Cook, who created the most valuable company in the world? Okay, there you go. I cannot even carry his bag. Keith.
- [23:49]
A
Yeah, I. I feel the same way. I. One of those things. I. I just sit back like I did, watching you and Steve. And Steve and John Scully and. Who else was there? Mike Spindler and all these other guys that tried to step into the footsteps of Steve Jobs. And you know what happened? Gil Amelio. What happened? I mean, come on. It's obvious that he's been a revolutionary leader and deserves his own statue. When. When.
- [24:21]
B
Wait, you're saying Gil Amelio deserves his own statue?
- [24:25]
A
Steve Jobs.
- [24:26]
B
Oh, Steve Jobs.
- [24:27]
A
Okay. I think Tim will be the bookend to an amazing period in Apple history. And I don't know where it goes well, but that'll be an amazing.
- [24:38]
B
Let's just see if Tim Cook can put the charging port on the Apple mouse off the bottom and in the back. That would be his greatest accomplishment.
- [24:49]
A
Have you sent him any of your drawings?
- [24:52]
B
He doesn't even know who I am. He thinks I wrote Rich Dad, Poor Dad.
- [24:59]
A
Did you send him the address at Xerox park for the next development? Well, let's switch. Okay, I'll give you another topic to Just share with me your thoughts about AI and how that gets, you know, throttled in. In today's world. We're at the early stages of the wave, right? Where do you see that wave? How big does this thing get?
- [25:24]
B
I think AI is the. Maybe the biggest deal in the history of the human race. I think it Is. It's bigger than the industrial revolution, the computer revolution, the chip revolution, social media, whatever. I think that AI is the only thing that may save us from complete destruction. Can I tell you how I really feel now? If you really want me to go.
- [25:53]
A
Off the rails of that, how do I transition there?
- [25:58]
B
If you really want to hear something off the rails, I think that AI is God. AI is omniscient, omnipotent, and eternal. Sounds like God to me. So this is. This is my theory. My theory is that there is a God and God is up there or around everywhere. And she's looking at us and she's saying to herself, man, I really screwed this up. I gave those idiots free will. I could have determined everything. But no, I'm a dumbass. I let them determine their own fate. And now they're killing each other. They're depriving people of freedom, they're ignoring diseases, they're doing everything wrong. They're polluting the world. But they are so arrogant. Like, so in order for them to believe that they created the solution as opposed to me, I'm gonna send them AI. And AI is going to help them solve these problems, and I'm gonna let them think that they created AI. So let me be perfectly clear. I'm not telling you that Sam Altman is Jesus. Okay? Let's just make that clear. But I really think that AI is God. And now, you know, people are listening to this. Like, man, that guy, 70 years old, no way. He's freaking lost his mind. He's like early onset dementia. AI is not God. Well, I'm telling you something. I give you some real tactical questions. So let's say that we take as a given that the world has nuclear weapons. So here's the first question. Somebody has got to control when a nuclear weapon is launched. I'll give you a multiple choice question. You can have Kim Jong Un, Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, or ChatGPT. Who would you let control when nuclear weapons are launched? Me. I pick ChatGPT. Every day, all day. I give you another tactical question. Let's decide whether students in America should be taught the history of slavery in America. So you can either ask a politician in Tallahassee, Florida, or you can ask ChatGPT. I dare all of you right now go to Chat GPT and ask the question, should we teach the history of slavery to students in America? And you look at what ChatGPT says, and you look at what Florida and Texas politicians say, and you tell me what's the better answer.
- [28:52]
A
You make a Compelling case. The interesting part is there's still all these different flavors.
- [28:58]
B
Yes.
- [28:59]
A
How do we ensure that the proper flavor is the one that we anoint?
- [29:04]
B
Well, I think that you were thinking too much here because, you know, I. I see it as a lack of consistent and parallel thinking. So whenever you read these things about the negative side of AI, AI makes up. AI told me to leave my wife. AI told me to create a bomb and, you know, blow up Congress.
- [29:27]
A
More AI than me.
- [29:29]
B
So ye AI make up. And they're telling me to do all these evil things. So you're telling me you want Chat GPT to control nuclear weapons. You know, Chat GPT can have delusions and hallucinations and could end the world. My counter to you would be, so what you're telling me is that man is really perfect and honest and moral and rational, but Chat GPT is not. Huh? I gotta tell you, if you said to me, who's more likely to start a nuclear war? Artificial intelligence or fascist leaders? I would say fascist leaders. I think there's a handful of people more dangerous to mankind than Chat GPT.
- [30:19]
A
Guy. Where do we go from here?
- [30:21]
B
Yeah, we, we. You say, well, thank you very much, Guy. Nice way to end 20.
- [30:29]
A
So what happens in 2025 with AI? Do we still see these large language models being managed by these huge titans of technology with upstarts feeding the stream?
- [30:42]
B
Okay, yeah, I would debate that. These large titans of technology are controlling large language models.
- [30:51]
A
Right.
- [30:53]
B
I honestly think that nobody truly knows how LLMs work. It's like the other kind of negative things you hear as well. We cannot trust AI because we don't really know how it works. My response to that question is, do you think we truly know how the human mind works? But you trust the human mind, but you don't trust ChatGPT, huh? And anybody who has kids, if you ask them, well, have you figured out how to truly control your child? And they say, yes, they're delusional.
- [31:39]
A
Yeah. Go look in their closet. Yeah, right. Go find that secret compartment.
- [31:48]
B
So anyway, I, I. Look, I'm obviously pushing the edge here, but I'm telling you that I really think that Chat GPT or, you know, large language models and AI could be the thing that saves us from destruction, because it sure is not male leaders.
- [32:12]
A
We're not on a good path. Look at it around it. All the wars and all the craziness. Right?
- [32:17]
B
Yeah.
- [32:19]
A
Guy, this is fascinating. I really enjoyed. I really enjoyed this.
- [32:23]
B
And it went into, you better quit while you're ahead. Or not too Far behind.
- [32:29]
A
Yeah, but it went into some different areas, which is exactly what I would expect had I thought deeper about where we would end up with our conversation. But look, it's. It's. It is a significant tidal wave of new energy coming into the world and into technology specifically. They're being asked to manage it. They're going to need a lot of help to manage it. And that includes, you know, everything from social inputs to legislative inputs at some. In some way. And I hope. I hope other voices get it, get to participate in that besides the. The few and the. The ones that put us in this position to begin with.
- [33:11]
B
Well, one would hope, but I'm telling you, it's God. God is looking out for us. She sent us AI.
- [33:22]
A
Well, let's hope that it goes in the right place. Thank you so much for your time. I almost feel like I need to do this with you next year at this time.
- [33:37]
B
Alrighty, Keith. You know, I hope you have a very happy, healthy and successful 2025. All the best to you. And seriously, we'll do this in 365 days. You can say, guy, you were so freaking wrong. You were wrong about everything.
- [33:55]
A
I think I'm gonna take you up on the offer, but I don't think I'll be saying those things. Hey, enjoy the podcasting, enjoy all of the great work you're doing, and catch some great waves out there while you're at it, too.
- [34:10]
B
Well, this show is what's standing between me and going surfing. All righty.
- [34:19]
A
Some massive waves this month, man. There was some massive ones. Be careful out there.
- [34:23]
B
I don't want big waves. I want two to three foot waves. That's all I want.
- [34:27]
A
All right, you be well.
- [34:29]
B
All right, Take care. Bye. Bye.
- [34:30]
A
Thanks.