← Liftoff with Keith: Conversations with Super Founders and Growth Experts sharing useful insights
Liftoff with Keith: Conversations with Super Founders and Growth Experts sharing useful insights
"The Look Back" Hosted by Keith Newman with Guest Tech Journalist, Author and X-pert Kurt Wagner (Bloomberg): Discussing the transition from Twitter to X, Musk, plus thoughts on AI and Tech journalism
00:37:04
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- [00:10]
Kara Swisher
Back is so excited. We have a. An old friend that I haven't caught up with in a while, so I'm really looking forward to this discussion. We have our guest, Kurt Wagner. I worked with Kurt back in the days. It feels like it was two years ago. It was probably more like 10 when we were Recode. And what a phenomenal run that was. Of course, Kara Swisher and Walt Bosberg. And you were doing a lot of great tech reporting, and you've taken those skills and you're now doing it over at Bloomberg. Kurt, welcome to the look back.
- [00:40]
Kurt Wagner
Hey, thank you for having me. It does feel. I don't know, I feel there. There's been like 10 lifetimes since Recode, I feel. You know what I mean?
- [00:48]
Walt Mossberg
We.
- [00:49]
Kurt Wagner
We on our second Trump presidency. We had Covid in there. Like, it's. The tech stories are endless. So it's. It was a great place, though. I definitely got a start there, that's for sure.
- [01:00]
Kara Swisher
Well, you know what else has happened since we last spoke? You wrote a book. You got your first book. Yeah.
- [01:04]
Kurt Wagner
Thank you.
- [01:05]
Kara Swisher
It's on the exciting topic, the Battle for the Bird.
- [01:09]
Kurt Wagner
Yes.
- [01:10]
Kara Swisher
Story of X and Twitter and, And really all the stuff that's going on there. It has been one of the best soap operas in the tech world, in the business world, in life, because Twitter. Twitter went from being this little niche social media platform at the dawn of that era to becoming the centerpiece of it, and then the mercurial founders who started it and their whole progressions into. Into it, sort of disappearing. Elon jumping in and making a small $44 billion bet.
- [01:44]
Kurt Wagner
Yeah. I mean, I think the thing. So a quick back story if I. If I can. I was actually going to write a Twitter book before Elon ever showed up on the scene. So my initial pitch was sort of a Jack Dorsey biography with Twitter. And, you know, Jack is. It's like the story of Jack Dorsey, but told through the lens of Twitter.
- [02:05]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [02:05]
Kurt Wagner
Because it was such an interesting story. And I thought, well, we'll get to the. The Trump presidency, because that had a lot of. Of interesting moments. We'll get to, you know, the activist investors who tried to oust Jack Dorsey. You know, Covid, there was just like a. I thought there was a lot there. And I'm literally out pitching this Jack Dorsey Twitter book in early 2022, and Elon shows up as the largest shareholder while I am, like, waving my book proposal around at any publisher who will look at me.
- [02:36]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [02:36]
Kurt Wagner
And so I remember in the, you know, literally having Conversations with. With one publisher who was like, well, where does Elon fit in? And this was back when he was just going to join the board. And I was like, well, you know, I guess I'll throw him in the final chapter, you know, as like, a new board member or whatever. And. And what's. You know, it took me a couple months, honestly, to come to grips with the idea that my original idea had just been, like, totally lit on fire and that I needed to pivot to where the story was going.
- [03:07]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [03:07]
Kurt Wagner
And it sounds so obvious now, but, like, in that moment in 2022, I was like, no, I have this great book. I have this great Twitter Jack Dorsey book. And Elon is, like, messing it up. And obviously, you know, had to go where the story went. So I think it worked out for the best.
- [03:22]
Kara Swisher
The proverbial pivot hits.
- [03:23]
Kurt Wagner
Yeah, it sure does. Yeah. And I mean, it's also, like, how lucky, right, as someone who's telling a story, to have the world's richest man suddenly show up, like, in the middle of your story that you're reporting on. I mean, it did make it more crowded. I will say there's a. There's several books about this saga that are out there, not just mine, which. Which is a bit of a bummer. But, I mean, the story itself just got so interesting so quickly with Elon in the mix. So I think, overall, I think I lucked out having him show up. The. Did you.
- [03:54]
Kara Swisher
You. You did dig in a lot. You did some great research in the book, and you talk a little bit about the Trump situation and the Elon situation. You review a lot about Dorsey. I mean, that whole team at Twitter at the beginning, that was just so phenomenal how that came into existence and then how it grew.
- [04:13]
Kurt Wagner
I think one of the interesting things about Twitter that. That existed, the entirety of the company's existence before it morphed into X, was just like the way that Twitter sort of, you know, punched above its weight.
- [04:29]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [04:29]
Kurt Wagner
Like, I mean, this is a company that I think a lot of people would talk about in the same sentence as Facebook or YouTube or, you know, fill in the blank.
- [04:41]
Kara Swisher
Yep.
- [04:42]
Kurt Wagner
But from a business, it was like 1/20 the size of Facebook. You know what I mean? Like, it was nowhere close to the business success that Facebook was. And yet, culturally, it sort of was right there in that same conversation. And so I think, for me, one of the. One of the reasons I think Twitter is such a weird and interesting story is that it really did achieve this, like, cultural relevance, that. That outpaced the actual business itself. And I think that was one of the. The reasons, quite frankly, that like, it struggled and why Elon was able to come in and do what he did was that it didn't have the foundation in the way that like a Facebook did to. To protect itself.
- [05:25]
Kara Swisher
Right. I think the other part to it, it just the content, the user generated content on that side. Edge.
- [05:33]
Kurt Wagner
Yeah. I mean, think about the Trump presidency. The first. The first one, right. Like, obviously a lot of this was very controversial at the time and probably still is, but you had like a sitting US President sort of like pseudo threatening nuclear war to North Korea, like on Twitter. You know what I mean? Like, hey, you know, my button's bigger than your button and you better watch out, otherwise, you know, you won't be around. And it's like, holy smokes. Like this, like, how did this particular platform become the place for that type of exchange?
- [06:10]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [06:10]
Kurt Wagner
And I think, and that's obviously one dramatic example, but I think to your point, like, there's some crazy stuff that's happened on Twitter over the years and, and it's all public and you know, for. It's just. Yeah, again, culturally way out punched its. Its weight there.
- [06:27]
Kara Swisher
We're talking about the it. So I want to stay on that, but I want to go into your role there. The thought that Twitter has evolved, but it still remains that polarizing playground for opinion and commentary. But, but to the point where you see it challenging and replacing journalism, is it a. Is it augmenting journalism? How do you view a site like Twitter? Because there's this whole hubbub. Elon led, you know, thrust against what he calls legacy media. Yeah, in a way, I guess Bloomberg would be considered in that mix for sure. If you think about Bloomberg still doing cutting edge digital, cutting edge tv, cutting edge print, I mean, all these other.
- [07:10]
Kurt Wagner
Assets, I think of, Yeah, I think of legacy media less about like the literal medium with which the media is distributed.
- [07:20]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [07:20]
Kurt Wagner
Like whether it's video, podcast, television, and more just like, is this a newsroom full of like, real journalists that have been around for a while and trying to challenge, you know, people in power?
- [07:35]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [07:35]
Kurt Wagner
And like Bloomberg certainly qualifies in that regard. And I think, you know, Twitter. I have sort of 2 thoughts on Twitter and the news environment. I mean, the first is like pre Elon. I think there's no doubt that Twitter had a huge impact on the way journalism evolved.
- [07:53]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [07:53]
Kurt Wagner
I mean, the ability to break a story on Twitter and watch that news sort of go viral in real time was just I mean, that was like a drug to journalists. You know what I mean? Like, there was, it was something special. If you could break a story, and the minute, you know, you had a link to share, it was like, it's up on Twitter. You're trying to, you're trying to, to watch that thing go viral. Yeah, that changed, I think, the pace of journalism. I think it changed sort of the, almost the bar of what constitutes a story. And that's where every journalist hung out and spent their time. I think post Elon, it's a very different experience. It's a very different experience as a journalist. Not only do I find there's fewer and fewer sort of traditional, you know, professional journalists there, but the decision by Elon to remove the blue check mark. So you remember, you'll, I'm sure you'll remember he, he eliminated the verification badges. One of the first things he did. It really just made it difficult to understand who you're hearing from.
- [09:01]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [09:02]
Kurt Wagner
The news value as a consumer on Twitter went way down because you just don't know, like, is this a real person? Is this a real journalist? Do they really work at the New York Times or Bloomberg or the Wall Street Journal? And because you don't have that element of that, you know, that verification element, I just think it's less trustworthy. And so as a result, I certainly use it a lot less for news than, than I did a few years ago.
- [09:28]
Kara Swisher
Right. And we also have an interesting trend percolating, too, where a lot of those people that would go to X now to break their news, they're now creating their own channels on places like YouTube substack. And it's really quite phenomenal how top reporters, media experts are moving into other roles and a lot of more independent creators leaving the Washington Post or other large significant places because they disagree with some of the rules. Or maybe they're just doing it on their own to be entrepreneurial. Time for me to go do something different. Or maybe I do have a problem with Bezos or Musk or somebody who want to write or not. Right. Whatever the case may be, it's kind of a fascinating time in the world of journalism, I think.
- [10:16]
Kurt Wagner
So I think everyone's probably got a different reason for striking out on their own.
- [10:20]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [10:20]
Kurt Wagner
Whether it's the management or the pay or the, just the freedom, the flexibility. I certainly have a high level of respect for my industry colleagues who are willing to bet on themselves. Right. I think that's a pretty cool thing to say. Hey, I, I, I'm good enough at my job, I have a big enough brand. I'm, I'm able to deliver news that people want and I can do this without sort of a, you know, formal newsroom behind me. And I think for people, for. It's not going to work for everybody, of course, but being willing to bet on yourself like that is, is something that I think is impressive. I obviously have not done that. I'm still at Bloomberg. I've been here almost six years and very happily, you know, hope to make it seven plus. But I think for me, not only is there a, a fear, like if I were to consider this, right, there would be like, okay, there's a fear, one that you just don't have the support and resources that you get with a full newsroom, right? Like, I'm so lucky. Like, I have, I hear a tip, I get a story idea. I have great editors that I can pick up the phone and call and bounce that off of. I have colleagues in other industries like, hey, if I'm hearing a tip about a deal, I got a whole deals team at Bloomberg that can help track that down. You know, some of the smartest people in the world at their respective beats. And I think that's something that you can't get, obviously, if you're out doing your own thing. And then, you know, there's also like, at least in my world, there's some weeks that are crazy and I'm writing like every single day. And then there are, there are slow times too, where you're like, I don't really know, you know, I'm out working on enterprise or a feature or whatever. Like, the thought of writing, you know, a newsletter three days a week, every single week, no matter what is going on in the news cycle, is a daunting thing because to be honest, like, not every week has three newsletters worth of, of things going on. If you're, if you're narrow enough in your, in your focus. So anyway, I guess the short version is respect the people who are doing it. So far it hasn't been for me. But I think it just goes to show that there's, there's not just one way to be a journalist in 2025. You know, the traditional methods are, are no longer the only way to do this job.
- [12:46]
Kara Swisher
You know, and that's a great point. And particularly in this times where now you have this threat that AI is going to come in and wipe out a bunch of other writing creative jobs. And now we see the opposite, almost like more channels opening up for more people that really enjoy doing journalism still. So it's pretty, it's pretty cool in a way. Like you can go to five or six different places that would get your, your so called newsletter or your podcast or your other kinds of content, you know, desires fulfilled and if it's good enough, it'll find a marketplace because there are enough, enough tools out there. AI will I guess supplement that anyway, I think.
- [13:24]
Kurt Wagner
But I do think the, the business element of this and I'm, you know, this is not something I spend much of my time day to day thinking about. But obviously as a, as a journalist in this industry, you can't ignore just like the, the sort of unbundling if you will, of, of like if you want to use a cable example, right. And think of all of these sub stacks as individual channels or, or whatever. It's, There is a, a question about like what the business of journalism looks like moving forward. And obviously everyone's trying to, to get into subscriptions, but as a news consumer, like you can only pay for so many things, right? Like you're, you're not going to have 20 new subscriptions. You might have 1, 2, 3. Just like I, I'm a Netflix subscriber and I'm a, what else do we even do? We, I do Disney plus. My, my kids love the Disney stuff but like I'm not, I don't have Hulu, I don't actually have hbo. Doesn't mean I don't love stuff on there, but like not enough necessarily to pay every month. And so I think the news situation is going through that same thing, right? Like who's, who's willing to pay and how many subscriptions are they willing to get. And the substack thing only adds to the mix because now not only are you paying for the traditional players, but you know, you want to support your, your favorite sort of individual or author who's out doing their own thing.
- [14:49]
Kara Swisher
What is your take on. I know you cover meta Facebook as well. What was your take when they ruled out the, the content moderation? Got rid of some of those fact checkers as well.
- [15:00]
Kurt Wagner
Yeah.
- [15:01]
Kara Swisher
Was that an obvious move you saw or was that a, an apology of some sort?
- [15:07]
Kurt Wagner
I have written this before. I mean to me a lot of the moves, not just those ones, but those ones in particular are examples of this company really pivoting toward the incoming administration and trying to align as closely as possible with, you know, President Trump. And you know, think about four years ago or I guess five years ago at this point when Trump was still in office, that first time around, like, what was the biggest headache for Meta? Well, it was that they were fact checking the. The sitting President of the United States all the time.
- [15:42]
Walt Mossberg
Right?
- [15:42]
Kurt Wagner
He was, he was tweeting about co or posting about COVID He was posting about the election, ultimately, the, the election, you know, results. And so if you're Mark Zuckerberg and you're sitting there going, that was a Pretty miserable year, 2020 was a pretty miserable year to be running Facebook because you're fighting almost daily, if not weekly, with the, with the sitting president. So what's one way to avoid that? Well, you loosen the rules. You loosen the rules around what people can say. You get rid of the fact checking altogether, right. So that he's no longer calling your office and complaining. And I can't really think of a. You know, obviously they frame this as like, oh, we want to return to our roots around free speech and things like that. But, like, a lot of the stuff they're letting people say again is it's not, in my opinion, like this massive free, like, oh, I wasn't allowed to say what I really want. It's like, it's kind of hateful stuff, right? Or. And it's like, even with fact checking, they rarely, if ever, like, I shouldn't say rarely, they didn't always remove stuff. Sometimes they would just label it, right? Like, hey, this is inaccurate. Like, here's a label to more information. I guess to me, this feels very much like a, an adjustment to kind of make the President of the United States feel like they are on the same page versus anything else, which is somewhat unprecedented.
- [17:05]
Kara Swisher
I can't think of another sitting president that, that kind of influence over the media.
- [17:10]
Kurt Wagner
I mean, I do think people probably pivot a lot more to appease administration, you know, like probably every four years type of thing. But it does feel more dramatic because of the scale it's happening on, because of the, you know, the personalities involved. Right. Donald Trump and Mark Zuckerberg. Like, I, I can't think of anything either, to be clear. I'm not saying this is just like, oh, this is just, you know, regular par for the course, but I think the idea that people would try to align with an incoming administration makes sense to me. It's just like the level at which it's happening and the public nature in which it's happening that I think is. Has struck people in a very interesting way.
- [17:52]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, really, really curious. Again, love, love getting your thoughts on this, Kurt. Before I jump off though, tell me what the experience was on the Book.
- [18:00]
Kurt Wagner
Yeah.
- [18:01]
Kara Swisher
How was it writing your first. First book and getting it published and in on the road and promoted it and doing all that stuff.
- [18:09]
Kurt Wagner
Yeah. I would say way more work than I ever envisioned. And I was, and I thought I was prepared. I talked to a bunch of people who had written books and they told me it'll be a lot of work. And I was like, yep, don't worry, I'm prepared for that. And I somehow was not. It was just an absolute avalanche of. Of work. That being said, the three months I took for book leave. So Bloomberg, very lucky, gives you three months to go write your book and they continue to pay you or at least, you know, they did with me, which was great.
- [18:38]
Kara Swisher
Michael.
- [18:39]
Kurt Wagner
Yeah, thank you. Was. Was like my favorite three months of my professional life probably.
- [18:45]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [18:46]
Kurt Wagner
Because you're still working a lot as I just mentioned, like you're still getting up and putting in full days and oftentimes very late nights. But the ability to just have that control over your schedule and your time as someone who is used to living in the news cycle when stuff happens and you just like have to drop everything you're doing and run toward it was so nice. You know, I would, I would like wake up and drop my son off at preschool and like go to the coffee shop and write till I just didn't want to write anymore. And then I would go home and go for a run and pick it back up later that afternoon. It was just like the flexibility of controlling your own time was really develop.
- [19:26]
Kara Swisher
More discipline as a result of this or were you pretty disciplined on in terms of your writing scheduling And I.
- [19:32]
Kurt Wagner
Was, I'm a relatively disciplined writer to begin with, but sort of a fun story. My book manuscript was due and my second child, our daughter was. Her due date was five days later. And so I had a deadline. I had a deadline imposed on myself that was very strict because I did. We'd already had one child, so I knew what we were getting into and I was like, as soon as this baby comes, like I'm not going to be able to write anymore.
- [20:06]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [20:07]
Kurt Wagner
Like this. So if I don't get it turned in on time, it's like a five month delay basically. So I was like very, very diligent and got it turned in on time, which was great. But I definitely had some external forcing factors there to help me get there.
- [20:23]
Kara Swisher
You had an early warning sign of your new deadline.
- [20:26]
Kurt Wagner
I sure did, yeah. So it was great. I loved it. I People, you know, get this question all the time. Hey, are you going to write another.
- [20:32]
Kara Swisher
Book in the sequels already is out there.
- [20:36]
Kurt Wagner
Well, I was going to say, so I would love to write another book. I love the experience. I thought it was awesome. Professionally, it's very cool to hold something like, you know, hold a book and be like, these are words that I, that I wrote. I think that's just like a very fulfilling experience as a journalist and a writer. That being said, like, the topic needs to be something you're willing to eat, dream, sleep, think about 24 7. Like, it is all consuming. You know, I would literally dream about this book, this story, these people. And so I would need to find a topic that I'm like willing to, to have consume my life for two years minimum, right. In order to, to pursue another book. And I don't know what that topic is right now, but I don't have anything at the moment.
- [21:22]
Kara Swisher
I was gonna say the whole Elon and X thing is. And how that morphs into greater power. Yeah, it's a hot topic. The, the Metamorphosis of Mark is kind of an interesting topic as well. But I think what you're doing in terms of the cross tabula with, with the AI tidal wave, now a lot of people are going to cover it, but there's so many threads in that. Isn't it a fascinating time between totally the mega monopolies that are all going to war? I mean, this is way beyond what we saw in SAS or networking or the PC era where we thought there were big companies competing with each other. This is at a whole another level in scale.
- [22:06]
Kurt Wagner
Yeah, I was going to say the scale is what's crazy.
- [22:09]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [22:09]
Kurt Wagner
I mean, we're writing about meta this year, for example, announced their, their capital expenditures for the year are going to be as high as $65 billion. Right. And, and I, you kind of say that, oh, it's like, oh, they're going to spend 65 billion on AI and do it, like really think about that, right? Like $65 billion. I mean, these companies are worth more than a trillion dollars.
- [22:33]
Walt Mossberg
Right?
- [22:34]
Kurt Wagner
So like the scale, the financial scale, also the, you know, you see some of the stuff that's coming out and it's just like, it's like science fiction. Spooky, right? Like, it's very cool, but it's also alarming sometimes, like the things that AI can do. And so I think when you combine the money, the personalities, the, the actual like output, the technology itself, it's like quite a combination I'm not sure we've seen before.
- [22:59]
Kara Swisher
It's kind of Interesting too. On, on a couple points. One, an old guy like me, I look at this and it's like IBM is a second tier player.
- [23:08]
Kurt Wagner
Yeah.
- [23:09]
Kara Swisher
In this, in, in a way they kind of invented the space. Maybe is a 1.0 or 1.1 with, with Watson and stuff. I mean, I know AI has been around for a long time, but kind of funny, they're a side player and then the whole layer of countries competing.
- [23:27]
Kurt Wagner
Right. With like China and Deep Seek and all this stuff. Yeah. I mean it's a true. Yeah, it's a truly global. It's a global race. I mean we saw, you know, Vice President J.D. vance, like one of the first things he did was go to Europe and basically like, you know, talk about how Europe is, is threatening the future of AI because of regulation and all this. Like, it's, I think it's one of those times where it's like every company is working in the same general space. Right. Like for a long time, you know, Google had search and Apple was doing phones and Facebook was doing social networks. And like. Yeah, there were overlaps but it felt like everyone had their own lane.
- [24:08]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [24:09]
Kurt Wagner
And it's. And I think maybe that's the difference now is like everyone's in the same lane and running in the same direction. And so that's, that's unique and that's, that's what makes it interesting.
- [24:20]
Kara Swisher
So in three to five years, do we see massive consolidation or do, or do we see all of these players really. Still not all, but most of these players still finding a way to coexist and partner. Like we are in the cloud world where.
- [24:35]
Kurt Wagner
Yeah.
- [24:36]
Kara Swisher
How many people really went out of business? But there's a, a layering effect.
- [24:40]
Kurt Wagner
Are you a. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not entirely sure. But like it's getting so expensive that the cost is going to force people together.
- [24:48]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [24:49]
Kurt Wagner
Like we, we just had a story publish at Bloomberg a couple hours ago that Met is, you know, out trying to raise tens of billions of dollars from investors to help fund its AI efforts. Talking to Apollo about a 35 billion dollar financing package, you know, and it's like if Meta, a trillion dollar company is out there saying, hey, we, we need help to finance this thing.
- [25:17]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [25:17]
Kurt Wagner
And we're seeing Microsoft and OpenAI team up and, and you know that there will be more, right. Like there will inevitably be more of these sort of deals because the, the money is just so big that you know, it's hard not to imagine it consolidating.
- [25:34]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [25:34]
Kurt Wagner
Like maybe all the players will still be relevant, but they'll all be sort of working on the same things. I, you know, I. Look, I shouldn't predict because I. What do I know? But it just feels like we're getting to a stage. Cara would have already made a prediction by now, so. Yeah.
- [25:54]
Kara Swisher
And you tend to know her favorites, but, but I think it is interesting. You can't predict today it would be impossible to have this thing. We could have a. We could throw a few dollars at it. And, and maybe there is a betting app for this.
- [26:06]
Kurt Wagner
Yeah.
- [26:07]
Kara Swisher
But I'm not confident about any money I'm throwing down. Just like I wasn't confident on, you know, betting who's going to win the NBA title this year.
- [26:17]
Kurt Wagner
Sure. And, and I think that's what makes it interesting though, right? Like, if we all knew who the winner was going to be today, it wouldn't be an interesting story. But I do think, you know, we're seeing partnerships, we're seeing investments in each other's businesses, etc. I don't think that's going to go away. I just don't know who's going to ultimately, like, you know, are there going to be 10 large language models that rule the world in five years or are there going to be three? I really don't know the answer to that. Yeah.
- [26:43]
Kara Swisher
Kind of early innings still, isn't it?
- [26:45]
Kurt Wagner
I think so. Yeah, definitely.
- [26:48]
Kara Swisher
What else are you spending some time on, Kurt? Watching. I know you have your specific beats, but what other.
- [26:53]
Kurt Wagner
Yeah, well, we're spending a lot of time right now thinking sort of in, in the short term, we're thinking about Tick Tock because that's a company that I, I help cover as well. And you know, there's a looming ban that's coming up in April. And that's a super interesting story too, because it, you know, it's not just a Tick Tock story. It's a geo politics story.
- [27:16]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [27:17]
Kurt Wagner
It's. It's about a global trade war and China. And there's. There's ramifications, right, if this thing gets shut down. Meta and YouTube and, and even Snap or X. Like there's a lot of people who stand to benefit from a major player like Tick Tock kind of being wiped off of the, the battlefield here. So I'm spending a lot of time doing that. Spending a ton of time thinking about Elon Musk, you know, not only because of the experience I had writing the book about his Twitter takeover. So I sort of have that lens and, and I still cover X, but, you know, just really Thinking about, like, what he's become in terms of a, a force within US politics and, and global politics. And it's crazy, man. Like the, the number of businesses that he has, the, the, the influence that he has on almost every sector.
- [28:14]
Kara Swisher
Cabinet meetings, man.
- [28:15]
Kurt Wagner
Yeah, literally, Literally speaking at, at, you know, cabinet meeting. The. Not just speaking, but the very first person to be called on at cabinet meeting. Yeah. So, yes, I would say, you know, outside of my normal beat, which is meta tik tock X, the other thing taking up most of my brain power and time right now is just, is literally just Elon Musk and the role that he's played.
- [28:39]
Kara Swisher
And did you pick any, any hotter topics or soap operas? I know reading and chronicling as a journalist.
- [28:47]
Kurt Wagner
So this is what I tell myself because there are certain weeks, you can imagine, Keith, where I'm like, this sucks. You know what I mean? Like, just a long week. It was exhausting. It was like, you know, every time you turn your head to the right, something happens over on the left. But I keep reminding myself like, I am covering, like, would I walk away from getting to cover these things in this moment? And the answer is like, no way.
- [29:12]
Walt Mossberg
Right?
- [29:12]
Kurt Wagner
Like, if you're a journalist and, and you want to feel like you're covering the most important things in the world, what better kind of story to be chasing right now, especially at a place like Bloomberg that has a global reach the way that we do. So it's, it's a good, it's a good job. It is, it is hard, but it's a very good job. I'm very lucky.
- [29:30]
Kara Swisher
I was going to tease you and say, is Bloomberg gonna buy Tick tock. So who, who, what happens to it though? What's your. Do you have a handicap there?
- [29:40]
Kurt Wagner
I don't, but I'll tell you the, that, you know, we, we ask other smart people this all the time and it's. I truly think it's a toss up. Like even, even smart people that are, you know, high ranking in the tech industry that have better insights than I would like, they have a Rolodex that's better than mine. Even those people are like, I don't know, you know, like, it feels like a true 5050 situation. I think there's just so many factors, right? Like, if this was a very traditional sales process, I think we could have a better handicap here because we could say, well, we know this is what usually happens in this moment, but what usually happens is basically tossed out the window because you have Trump who's trying to involve himself in whatever deal you have. The Chinese government and the role that they will inevitably play in, in a deal if it happens, you obviously have the price tag which is going to be tens of billions of dollars. It's not like the kind of thing that, you know, everybody can buy. So there's a very limited number of potential buyers to begin with. It's just a super interesting story right now. And if I were to tell you here's what's going to happen, I'd be lying to you because I truly don't know. But I think there's, I think there's a good chance it goes away. You know, I, I don't, I certainly not like a, I wouldn't say it's like a 10 chance. I'd say it's much higher than that.
- [31:01]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. It's a government issue, it's a political issue, it's a business issue. Who knows? So let me, let's end on an interesting side note too because we just talked about, you know, your day to day and your role there.
- [31:13]
Kurt Wagner
Yeah.
- [31:13]
Kara Swisher
At the prominent Bloomberg Media center and your role as a tech reporter. I come out of the Jade School, you know, general assignment reporting stuff. You've done a lot of work as a reporter, writer. I mean, I thought this career might be headed toward the graveyard as a journalist. As a writer, confidentially, you know, a candidly, I mean, it's kind of interesting. What would you say to the Kurt Wagner who's going into college today? Yeah. Was thinking about like, maybe I want to be a journalist or maybe I want to be a writer or maybe you're, you know, sort of mid headed out of college, may not want to explore. Do you think it's worthwhile to go into journalism school or maybe explore some other backgrounds and explore your writing?
- [32:00]
Kurt Wagner
Well, I hope people still find it worthwhile.
- [32:02]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [32:02]
Kurt Wagner
I mean it'd be, it'd be a bummer if like people don't want to do this job anymore because I do think it's so incredibly important. I think it's a tough sell right now.
- [32:11]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [32:11]
Kurt Wagner
Because you have not only the threat of like AI, Right. Like, oh, like AI is just gonna do all the writing, but you have people at the top, especially in this country, who are attacking the institution of journalism every single day.
- [32:26]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [32:26]
Kurt Wagner
And that's, that's President Trump and, and Elon Musk and so, you know, if you're 20 years old in college and thinking, what do I want to do with my life? I can understand why some people might be reluctant to, to go down this path. But I hope good people do, because what I will say about the AI, and again, what do I know? But like, AI right now is great at summarizing stuff that exists, right? Like you give it 10 million words and say, hey, like, summarize this into five paragraphs and it'll do it for you. Yeah, but AI can't go report the news, right? Like, AI is not going to go out and do interviews. AI is not going to go out and, and, you know, sift through FOIA documents and, and, you know, try to, to hold people accountable in ways that I think true journalists do. So I'm somewhat hopeful that even if, you know, the actual writing maybe becomes easier because of AI or automated, that the, that the, the journalism behind the writing will, you know, still need to be done by people who are willing to put in the time and the effort. So that's one thing. And then for people who have decided they want to do this, my advice, and actually this is somewhat top of mind because I got to speak at a, at a journalism class at Cal Berkeley a few weeks ago, which was really cool. And I shared this advice too. Like, my, my, the thing that I did best, I would say when I first started was just write. Like, I actually wanted to be a sports reporter. I was like, obsessed with Sports Illustrated. I thought, like, you know, that's where I'm going. I'm going to be a feature writer for Sports Illustrated. And, you know, someone, I wish I could remember who, but someone basically gave me the advice, like, just go get a byline. Like, just write. Don't worry about the topic.
- [34:16]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [34:17]
Kurt Wagner
Don't worry about, you know, even as much as, like, where it's showing up. Learn how to write, learn how to be a journalist, learn how to do interviews. And you can switch topics later on, right? Like, you, if you are a good reporter and a good journalist, you can go be a good journalist in different industries down the road. But if you're so pigeonholed on, like, well, I'm only ever going to write sports because that's, that's what I want to do. Like, yeah, that just might not open it, that door might not be open at that time.
- [34:48]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [34:48]
Kurt Wagner
It's all about timing. And so I took that advice, I started writing business even though I, that was not necessarily where I foresaw, like, you know, my dream job. And, and I'm so glad I did. Right, Because I, I, I think got me down this path that's, that's worked out really well.
- [35:07]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, the technology, sports and entertainment industries have all blossomed really well in the world of media. So you have to be fortunate kind of to pick the right segments.
- [35:16]
Kurt Wagner
But yeah, and I, and I would like to think, obviously, you know, I would like to think that like, my skills as a business journalist, like, I could apply those to, you know, if I wanted to go cover sports someday, you know, maybe, maybe there's a way in because of everything I've done in this sector.
- [35:35]
Walt Mossberg
Right.
- [35:35]
Kurt Wagner
And so, yeah, so that was what I told those students and what I would tell anyone who says or believes, you know, journalism is a good path for them is like, don't be super picky when you're in college or coming out of college. Like, go learn the craft, worry less about the topic and then, and then you can pivot from there.
- [35:55]
Kara Swisher
Kurt, let's, let's leave it there because one, I took way too much of your time already, but that's the kind of, of insights I wanted to share. I, I love the feeling like if somebody's listening to this and got to hear you share that and the stuff that you work on on a day to day basis, I think they're, they're excited about their future because the stories like the ones we're expressing today don't seem like they're going away.
- [36:20]
Kurt Wagner
No, they're, they're, they're not. I, as much as some weeks I wish they would, they're not going anywhere. So. I appreciate you having me. Thank you. I, it's, I said this before we got on, but like, such a thrill to get to talk about the book and, and my work. I'm very proud of it and hopefully people will give it a shot if they haven't read it before. It's a, you know, good read, especially relevant right now with everything happening.
- [36:45]
Kara Swisher
It's a great read and they should continue to read your stuff on Bloomberg and watch you on Bloomberg. It's been fantastic. Thanks for your time again.
- [36:53]
Kurt Wagner
Yeah, thank you for having me.