The Lord of Spirits Podcast

Episode: Apocalypse Now and Then
Date: July 22, 2021
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen De Young
Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition

Episode Overview

This episode explores the true meaning of “apocalypse” in the Orthodox Christian tradition—not as “the end of the world”, but as the unveiling of spiritual reality. The hosts connect this theme to how Orthodox Christianity understands consciousness (the “noose”), free will, ancient and modern worldviews, and everyday spiritual experience. Drawing from the Bible, the Church Fathers, philosophy, and listener questions, Fr. Andrew and Fr. Stephen argue for a holistic, integrated understanding of the spiritual and material worlds, and offer practical advice on how to begin “seeing” spiritual reality once again in daily life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction: What is an “Apocalypse?” (03:00–04:00)

• “Apocalypse” in the Bible means “unveiling” or revelation, not the end of the world.
• The episode is a sequel to their prior discussion on the “noose” (the spiritual faculty for direct apprehension of God).

2. The Noose and Pre-Reflective Consciousness (04:36–17:12)

• The “noose” is not the same as thoughts or discursive reasoning—it’s the “point of attention,” the organ of spiritual perception.
• Fr. Stephen (06:01): “Pre-reflective consciousness: this point of attention is back before that [before the stream of thought], which...means you can focus it on...your mind can look at, or your mind can consider, whatever language you want to use for this.”
• Knowing yourself is the key to knowledge in ancient Christian and philosophical literature.
• Recognizing that thoughts are not the self is central; we are not at the mercy of thoughts, but can observe, accept, or reject them.

3. Freedom, Will, and the Self (14:03–17:12)

• The essential human freedom is the ability to choose how to respond to reality, not to change reality itself.
• We have free will because we are not our thoughts, but have the power to accept or reject them.

4. Modern Confusion: Reducing Knowledge to Language (18:12–24:44)

• Modernity tends to reduce reality to what is expressible in language, but not all knowledge is linguistic.
• Fr. Andrew (19:05): “A lot of our problem is that we tend to reduce knowledge to language...But...Can we reduce thoughts to just words? Clearly not.”
• Direct experience (e.g., seeing, feeling, sadness) is richer than the words used to describe it.

5. Problems with Modern Categories: Natural/Supernatural, Material/Immaterial (33:01–44:59)

• Ancient people saw the world as one—there’s no “natural” vs “supernatural,” but rather the “seen and unseen.”
• Modernity’s “Cartesian dualism” (Descartes) artificially separates soul and body, the material and the spiritual.
• This leads to the “bracketing off” of spiritual life from public life and everyday experience.

6. How Did We Get Here? Brief History of Modern Worldview (35:40–43:16)

• Separation begins with Descartes, deepens with Kant (iron wall between the phenomenal and noumenal), and is further changed by Hegel (who collapses the spiritual into the material—leading to secularism).
• The result: most people either ignore the spiritual or see it as a private metaphor, not as real.

7. Can We Go Back? The Call for “Reintegration” (47:33–51:08)

• We can’t unsee our modern worldview, but we can actively work to reintegrate the spiritual and the material.
• Every spiritual reality has a corresponding material reality and vice-versa—most obviously in the sacraments.

8. Apocalypse as Genre and Biblical Theme (79:20–90:45)

• “Apocalypse” means uncovering spiritual reality behind the material world.
• The entire Bible is “apocalyptic” in this sense—it pulls back the veil to show what’s happening spiritually, not just materially.
• Prophets are “seers;” true prophecy is the fruit of standing “in the Divine Council” (having seen into God’s realm).

9. Interpreting the Apocalyptic Nature of Scripture (90:07–110:13)

• Genesis, the Flood, the Exodus, and most biblical events are apocalyptic: not primarily scientific or material history, but revelations of God’s action and the spiritual meaning behind events.
• Fr. Stephen (96:13): “The whole premise behind the idea that it would be science is flawed. But the point is, it isn’t. It’s apocalypse—it’s revealing what God is doing.”

10. Apocalypse in the Liturgy and Sacraments (112:45–116:13)

• The liturgy is an ongoing apocalypse: God is revealed, heaven is opened (“We have seen the true light…”).
• “Epiclesis” in the liturgy is literally an invocation for the Holy Spirit to “show,” “make manifest” the presence of Christ.

11. Practical Reenchantment: Living the Apocalypse Now (116:43–148:10)

• To “see” the spiritual, we must live liturgically—not just reducing everything to language or analysis, but engaging in ritual, art, music, and especially in acts of love and hospitality.
• True worship (ritual) must remain inflexible to shape us toward God; shaping worship to ourselves weakens our transformation.
• Fr. Stephen (124:00): “To mold something, the mold has to be completely firm. You can’t mold Jell-O with Jell-O.”

12. Love, Ethics, and the Cleansing of the Noose (129:54–136:42)

• Worship and morality are not separate: hospitality to God and hospitality to others are intertwined.
• Almsgiving, love of neighbor, and moral works cleanse the noose and make spiritual perception possible.
• Every act is a ritual act; there is no “neutral ground.”

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Descartes (11:44):
  Fr. Andrew: “Descartes’ famous dictum, cogito ergo sum, I think, therefore I am is actually wrong, because you’re not your thoughts.”

• On Modernity’s Divide (39:15):
  Fr. Stephen: “We put all that stuff [God, spirit, soul] in a box...and then the rest of our life, everything outside the brackets, we basically interact with everything else the same way atheists do.”

• On the Sacraments (51:08):
  Fr. Stephen: “Probably the key place where we [reintegrate] ritually is in the idea of sacrament, or the mysteries of the Church...where you have a material reality and a spiritual reality permeating each other.”

• On Apocalypse as Revelation (82:50):
  Fr. Stephen: “Those are synonyms, basically: to reveal something, to uncover something, to show something. And so what it is uncovering is the spiritual reality that is always…right behind the physical and material reality.”

• On Revelation in Liturgy (115:34):
  Fr. Stephen: “The Epiclesis of St. Basil the Great: ‘Show this bread to be…’ The idea of showing, revealing, seeing the spiritual reality…is sort of right there in the language.”

• On Reforming the Noose (147:29):
  Fr. Stephen: “Through love, you’re going to draw close to God. And your noose will begin to be cleansed…you’ll get your mind right, and you’ll start to see what’s been going on around you this whole time.”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Apocalypse, Not the End (03:00)
• Noose / Pre-reflective Consciousness Explained (04:36–17:12)
• Freedom and Free Will (14:03–17:12)
• Reducing Knowledge to Language (18:12–24:44)
• Modernity & Cartesian Dualism (33:01–43:16)
• Call for Reintegration (47:33–51:08)
• Sacraments as Union of Seen/Unseen (51:08–53:39)
• Apocalypse as Biblical Theme (79:20–90:45)
• Interpreting Scripture: Spiritual Over Scientific (90:07–110:13)
• Liturgy is Apocalypse (112:45–116:13)
• Practical Reenchantment & Orthodox Ritual (116:43–148:10)
• Love and Cleansing the Noose (129:54–136:42)

Tone and Style

The episode is conversational, humorous, and erudite—but always pastoral and practical. The hosts balance deep theological reflection with memorable jokes, personal anecdotes, and frequent references to Church tradition, Scripture, and philosophy.

Memorable Moments

• The “Never put Descartes before da horse” pun (11:53).
• Discussion of language vs. experience—comparing linguistic reduction of spiritual reality to reading sheet music vs. listening to music (31:03–32:04).
• Gentle roasting of modern and 19th-century German philosophers (40:08, 42:44).
• Listener call about doves and the Holy Spirit—comic but instructive exploration of symbolism (73:40–78:29).

“Therefore”—Practical Application

• Reintegrate the spiritual and material by:
  • Engaging fully in Orthodox ritual, music, and iconography.
  • Practicing love, almsgiving, and hospitality.
  • Realizing every act is a spiritual act (“apocalypse of the ordinary”).
• The cleansing of the noose happens through faithful action in love—not through esoteric mysticism or chasing “spiritual” experiences.

Fr. Andrew (141:38):
“You are a being that has a spiritual element and the world is creation that has spiritual elements. So everything you do is spiritual. The question is simply, am I doing it in a way that’s like God or...like the evil one?”

Fr. Stephen (147:29):
“The next time you see someone who needs help, help them. And you’ll be amazed at how...the spiritual starts to come alive for you.”

Summary

This episode of The Lord of Spirits makes the case that the real apocalypse—which is to say, the unveiling of spiritual reality—is present in every moment, not just in biblical prophecy. To recover this awareness, Orthodox Christianity calls for a holistic life infused with sacrament, ritual, and love. True knowledge—and true spiritual sight—come from integrating the seen and unseen through faithful, liturgical living and practical love for neighbor. The path to the apocalypse of the ordinary is open to all who seek it with a cleansed “noose” and an open heart.