The Lord of Spirits Podcast

Episode: Baptism by Fire

Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young

Date: December 9, 2022

Overview

In this rich, multi-layered episode, Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen De Young explore the Orthodox sacrament of Chrismation—the “baptism by fire”—and its profound cosmological, scriptural, and experiential significance. Grounded in the theme of “the seen and unseen world in Orthodox tradition,” the discussion connects Chrismation and the Holy Spirit to the entirety of Holy Scripture, the ontology of sacraments, and their concrete effect in the everyday Christian life. The hosts specifically examine the ancient roots and implications of anointing, theological ramifications of being filled with the Holy Spirit, and the role of the Christian as a locus of divine presence in the world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Chrismation? The Basics ([04:01]–[13:12])

• Definition: In the Orthodox Church, Chrismation is the sacramental anointing with holy oil (chrism) for the reception of the Holy Spirit. It is usually performed immediately after baptism.
• How It’s Done: Newly baptized are anointed on multiple senses and members of the body—forehead, eyes, ears, nose, mouth, hands, feet, chest, back (see [04:59]).
• Materials: Oil prepared (often by a bishop), infused with diverse elements, used to consecrate people, altars, churches, and sometimes houses.
• Western Parallel: In Western Christianity, the parallel is confirmation—usually delayed until adolescence. In Orthodoxy, it is integrated and administered to infants as part of a unified baptismal rite.

“If you give the one sentence definition of what Chrismation is, it's that a person is anointed with oil, this particular oil, to receive the Holy Spirit.” — Fr. Stephen ([11:39])

2. Sacramental Unity and Orthodox “Lists” ([06:11]–[10:40])

• Orthodox tradition resists rigid sacramental listing (i.e., “seven sacraments”), in contrast with the defined Catholic model.
• Chrismation, Baptism, and Communion are experienced together. The separation of these rites arises only in dialogue with Western traditions.
• The boundaries between sacraments are “blurry”—they are not distinct spiritual technologies but a living unity.

“There's not a firm line between the two… the important thing is that if you want to become Orthodox, you do whatever your priest tells you to do.” — Fr. Andrew & Fr. Stephen ([11:31])

3. Holy Spirit in Scripture: Trinitarian Dynamics ([12:31]–[21:34])

• Genesis 1: The Spirit of God “hovering over the waters” is life-bestowing, grammatically feminine, and closely tied to creation’s order and vitality (see [13:12]).
• The action of the Holy Spirit is personal, active, life-giving, and inseparably linked to the work of Christ the Logos.
• The idea of being “filled with the Spirit” is about being truly alive, participants in God’s ongoing creative life.

“To be truly alive is to be filled with the Holy Spirit, who is the Lord, the giver of life.” — Fr. Stephen ([20:37])

4. Old Testament: Temporary & Permanent Filling ([22:13]–[44:32])

• Permanent: Select figures (e.g., Moses, David) are filled with the Spirit as prophets or kings—but the gift could be lost by unfaithfulness (cf. Saul).
• Temporary: Others are empowered for specific tasks (e.g., the craftsmen building the Tabernacle, Judges performing great deeds).
• Holy Spirit "Possession": Sometimes, agency is overwhelmed for a moment, such as when the Judges smite enemies; the action is “purely God’s act” ([35:01]).
• Agency Distinction: The key difference between the Holy Spirit and evil spirits lies in how agency works; an idea is not a spirit, and spirits act through (not apart from) human cooperation.

“A spirit has agency. And so a person who is filled with the Spirit, then what they do... has the potential at least to become God acting through them.” — Fr. Stephen ([21:21])

5. Prophecy of Pentecost: All Flesh Receives the Spirit ([44:32]–[51:30])

• Joel 2 & the Prophets: The Old Testament foretells a time when all people—not just select leaders—will be filled with the Spirit.
• This is revolutionary, not only in Jewish experience but also in contrast to all pagan initiation, in which only a divine elite participate in spiritual life.

“Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy… Even on male and female servants in those days, I will pour out my Spirit.” — Joel (cited at [46:18])

• New Covenant Fulfilled: The Holy Spirit in the New Testament is poured out on all believers, democratizing holiness and spiritual power.

6. Pentecost, the New Temple, and the Reception of the Spirit ([51:30]–[61:01])

• The pattern in Acts: after baptism, apostles lay hands on the faithful and transmit the Holy Spirit—a model for Orthodox sacramental practice.
• Notable exceptions (e.g., Cornelius the Centurion receiving the Spirit before baptism) serve to break Jewish/Gentile barriers, showing the universality of the new covenant (see [52:43]).
• Important Note: The Holy Spirit may be at work even outside the visible boundaries of the Church, bringing people to fullness in Orthodoxy.

“If the Holy Spirit only worked within the Orthodox church, no one would ever come [from outside].” — Fr. Stephen ([62:06])

7. What Does Chrismation Do? Fruit of the Spirit & Torah Written on the Heart ([55:06]–[72:55])

• The mark of receiving the Holy Spirit is the Fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22–23): love, joy, peace, etc.—not necessarily sensational experiences or visible signs.
• The Holy Spirit actively writes the Torah on the heart; Christians keep the Law not by external observance but by inward transformation and divine indwelling.
• Orthodox anthropology: “salvation” is not legal acquittal but restoration and synergy—God keeps His commandments in us.

“The manifestations of the Holy Spirit are the fruit of the Spirit… Biblically, you would judge those manifestations by the presence of the Holy Spirit.” — Fr. Stephen ([64:29])

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Western/Eastern Differences
  “The separation of Chrismation and Baptism in the west is secondary—Chrismation, Baptism, and first communion go together in Orthodoxy.” ([08:05])
• On Law & Grace
  “The Holy Spirit empowers the Christian to keep the law… it's not that Christ keeps the law so we don’t have to; the Spirit comes to dwell in us so that God keeps the commandments in and through us.” ([68:05])
• On Agency and Spirit
  “There is a difference between a spirit and an idea… a spirit has agency… an idea does not have that.” ([40:41])

Second Half: Anointing—From Tabernacle to Messiah ([78:26]–[116:56])

8. Old Testament Anointing and Messianic Types ([87:13]–[116:09])

• Many “Anointed Ones”: Kings, priests, prophets—all are anointed, not just the future messiah. Kings are anointed by prophets; priests at ordination; prophets by succession.
• Multiple Messiahs: Second Temple Judaism envisions not just a Davidic (kingly) messiah, but also priestly (Levi), prophetic (Elijah-types), and (in some Jewish traditions) an Ephraimite “messiah for the Gentiles.”
• Anointing signifies not just a new office but restoration and transformation—of kingship, priesthood, prophecy, and ultimately, the world.

“Christ restores humanity… as anointed ones, we become part of this new restored and transformed humanity in Christ.” — Fr. Stephen ([125:04])

• Christians as Anointed Ones: To be “Christian” (from christos) is “anointed one”—every Orthodox Christian is truly and literally anointed as temple, king, and priest.

Third Half: Temple, Indwelling, and Theosis ([132:40]–[163:57])

9. Tabernacle and Temple as Types of the Christian ([133:33]–[157:43])

• Building Dedication: The tabernacle and first temple are consecrated with oil and filled with God’s presence (theophanic glory cloud, fire, etc.).
• Second Temple Absence: No visible glory attends the second temple or its rededication (Ezra, Maccabees), resulting in a sense of lack and spiritual expectation in the centuries before Christ.
• Jesus as the New Temple: The New Testament interprets Christ himself as the eschatological temple (John 2; Revelation 21). His body is where God truly dwells (“Destroy this temple and I will raise it in three days”—see [155:38]).
• Christians as Living Temples: By anointing and Spirit, each Christian's body becomes the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:19). Christians carry the abiding presence of God into the world.

“Anointed Christians as the temple, as paradise, in whom God dwells, are sent out into the world to bring God and to bring paradise with them.” — Fr. Stephen ([158:38])

• Signs and Miracles as Presence: The signs and wonders in Acts and church history parallel the glory-cloud’s confirmation—they mark out where God’s real presence is newly established.

“The presence of these signs… is an identification and an indicator that Christ is the temple, and Christians... are where God is dwelling.” — Fr. Stephen ([160:40])

• Everyday Theosis: More than visible miracles, the greatest miracle is repentance, spiritual transformation, and the fruits of the Spirit.

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:01] - What is Chrismation?
• [13:12] - Spirit in Genesis & Creation
• [22:13] - Filling with the Spirit in Old Testament
• [44:32] - Pentecost and Universal Gift of the Spirit
• [51:30] - New Testament Pentecost Pattern
• [55:06] - What does Chrismation do?
• [68:05] - Spirit writes Torah on the heart
• [87:13] - Old Testament Anointings
• [96:31] - Second Temple Judaism: Priest, King, and Multiple Messiahs
• [133:33] - Temple Consecration, Glory Cloud, and Second Temple Absence
• [155:38] - Christ as the New Temple
• [158:38] - Christians sent as temples, carrying paradise

Final Thoughts & Concretizing the Message ([167:14]–[176:32])

• Purpose-focused Christianity: The key question isn’t “what is Chrismation” but “what is it for?” It is not a mere ritual or status change but the empowering, sending, and transforming commission to be Christ’s living presence in the world (see [164:36]).
• Each Christian as Locus of Divine Action: By bearing the Spirit into their families, communities, and workplaces, Christians drive out the spirits of darkness and bring God’s love, joy, and peace into the world.
• Transformation of the World: The early Church transformed the Roman world not by argument, but by the lived presence of God—so, too, can Christians now.

“One person doing that can transform a whole system... And as they do that, they start to become Christians as well, and slowly, piece by piece, big systems can be transformed.” — Fr. Stephen ([174:03])

Memorable Quotes

• “To be anointed is to be commissioned, to receive a calling—not just a status.” — Fr. Stephen ([126:16])
• “Every one of us, as a Christian, as an anointed one, as someone who has the Holy Spirit working within us and through us, carries the Holy Spirit with us wherever we go.” — Fr. Stephen ([169:26])
• “When we bring the Spirit with us, it is like carrying a torch into the darkness. It begins to transform communities and the world around us by driving out those other spirits.” — Fr. Stephen ([170:54])

Tone and Style

The dialogue is rich, slightly playful, and anchored in patristic, scriptural, and historical knowledge. The hosts use humor, personal stories, and pop culture references (Star Trek, Dungeons and Dragons) to keep weighty spiritual concepts approachable and engaging.

Summary in a Nutshell

Wildly more than a lesson on a ritual, this episode is a sweeping, deep-dive meditation on how the Orthodox Christian is, through baptism and Chrismation, made a living temple—a bearer of the Spirit, commissioned to be God’s light, love, and power in the darkness of the world. The sacrament of Chrismation is not only a personal Pentecost and re-creation, but ground zero for the renewal and transformation of all creation through the presence and agency of God in His people.

Next episode: Holy Orders (Priesthood and Ordination)

“We do this by each of us in our place… making these everyday, day to day efforts to love, to be at peace, to experience real joy, to be kind, to be good, to be gentle, to be faithful, to exercise self control. One person doing that can transform a whole system.” — Fr. Stephen ([176:18])