The Lord of Spirits: “Bodies and the Bodiless” (January 28, 2021)

Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Podcast Network: Ancient Faith Ministries
Episode Theme:
Exploring the nature of bodies—divine, human, angelic, and demonic—within the Orthodox Christian tradition, with special focus on how ancient and biblical understandings of "body" challenge common assumptions about physicality, spiritual existence, and the interplay of material and immaterial realities.

Episode Overview

This episode continues a deep-dive into the Orthodox Christian understanding of embodiment, contrasting ancient notions of "body" (as nexus of powers and potentialities) with modern, reductionist views. Frs. Andrew and Stephen also clarify misconceptions about the body of God, angels, and the human resurrection, drawing from scriptural, patristic, and liturgical sources to illuminate how “body” is foundational to the seen and unseen worlds.

Key Segments, Insights, and Memorable Quotes

1. Recap and Groundwork: “Body” Beyond Material Object ([01:10]–[13:43])

Key Points:

• The episode opens as a follow-up after questions from listeners about whether saying God “has a body” makes Him “a big version of us.”
• Distinguishing ancient, scriptural/patristic meaning of “body” from modern materialist usage.
• “Body” in ancient thought denotes a “nexus of powers and potentialities,” not simply a physical/material shell.

Notable Quotes:

• “We’re not per se talking about a material object in the world. We’re talking about a nexus of powers and... or potentialities.” (Fr. Stephen, [04:45])
• “If we say that God has a body, we do not mean that God has a body in the same way that we have bodies...” (Fr. Andrew, [12:54])

2. Language, Translation, and Theological Categories ([10:12]–[19:29])

Key Points:

• Language and vocabulary used across Hebrew, Greek, and English cannot be mapped 1:1; context determines meaning.
• Beware of being hung up on technical terms outside their context (e.g., “Latria” and “proskinesis” for worship/veneration).
• The terms for “body,” “nature,” “person,” etc., developed in the Church’s first centuries are not always present in Scripture as later technical terms—instead, the Fathers and Biblical texts point to the same realities with different vocabulary.

Notable Quotes:

• “No two languages are one-to-one equivalents to each other.” (Fr. Stephen, [10:43])
• “We’re not trying to create a theological dictionary here.” (Fr. Andrew, [13:36])
• “I love J.R.R. Tolkien without being a Roman Catholic.” (Fr. Andrew, [13:46])

3. Human Bodies: Created, Mutable, and Oriented Toward Fulfillment ([20:27]–[39:44])

Key Points:

• Ancient paradigm: Human bodies are “nexus of powers”; our materiality is one aspect.
• Adam and Eve’s vocation was to extend Paradise, set the world in order, and fill it with life (Genesis 1–2).
• Humanity pre-Fall was not “utterly perfect,” but innocent and unfulfilled—perfection (Greek: telos) is about achieving fullness and maturity.
• The Incarnation was always God’s plan (not a ‘Plan B’); Christ as the telos of humanity.

Notable Quotes:

• “The work that Adam and Eve are created to do is still God’s work... It’s a potentiality because they’re participating in God’s exercising of His powers.” (Fr. Stephen, [24:27])
• “Salvation is not just about the forgiveness of sins... but is actually about this growth, this realization of what Adam is supposed to be. That... Christ is what Adam was made for.” (Fr. Andrew, [37:28])
• “Christ still would have been incarnate for our sakes... even without any—zero—falls.” (Fr. Stephen, [38:49])

4. The Fall: Mortality as Gift, Not Curse ([39:44]–[56:07])

Key Points:

• The “knowledge of good and evil” symbolized maturity Adam and Eve weren’t ready for.
• Mortality—given in response to the Fall—is not punishment but a “gift,” making repentance and transformation possible; opposed to the unchangeable immortality of fallen angels (“that evil not be immortal”).
• Flesh as “mortal” doesn’t mean “sinful;” distinction needed (Augustinian confusion critiqued).

Notable Quotes:

• “Their mortality is actually a gift from God, and not a punishment, because otherwise, we would have been crystallized in sin.” (Fr. Andrew, [47:47])
• “Sin, this power... this demon that crawled up out of the underworld, it came into the world through Adam and then it goes after Adam’s son.” (Fr. Stephen, [52:19])

5. Angels: “Bodiless” Only by Comparison; Why Angels Can’t Repent ([61:52]–[90:41])

Key Points:

• Angels are said to be “bodiless” only in relation to human materiality; they do possess created, finite bodies (nexus of powers), as taught by both scripture and the Fathers (e.g., John of Damascus, 1 Corinthians 15).
• Demons: Fallen angels retain their bodies, but disembodied spirits of the Nephilim (“giants”) seek bodies to possess.
• Angels cannot repent due to their “immortal, immutable” nature. Human mutability (mortality) uniquely allows repentance.

Notable Quotes:

• “[Angels are] bodiless compared to us. They are immaterial and lack tangibility [relative to humanity]...” (Fr. Stephen, [64:22])
• On demons and possession: “They just sort of temporarily kind of make use of [a body or idol]... It’s almost like, I don’t know, a suit of clothes.” (Fr. Andrew, [73:07])
• “Our mortal bodies are particularly suited to allow for repentance...” (Fr. Stephen, [76:03])
• “If we can’t understand what it’s like to be a bat, we can’t understand what it’s like to be a vast cosmic intelligence.” (Fr. Stephen, [80:00])

6. Resurrection and Transformation: Everyone Will Rise ([91:54]–[108:33])

Key Points:

• 1 Corinthians 15: Paul describes the resurrection using the language of strength/clothing—everything lost in the Fall is restored, but humanity is now changed, matured through Christ.
• All humanity will rise: resurrection is universal, not merely a reward for the righteous, but the final confirmation of what one has become.
• Resurrection bodies aren’t simply “better versions” of current bodies, but a transformed materiality beyond current comprehension.

Notable Quotes:

• “The redemption of human nature happens... to human nature itself. That means that all human beings are going to rise from the dead.” (Fr. Andrew, [94:24])
• “It’s not only reversing [the fall]... but it’s now being confirmed in what we’ve become—and that is for good and for ill.” (Fr. Stephen, [97:09])
• “The body is sown in corruption and raised in incorruption. It’s not the same thing...” (Fr. Andrew, [108:01])

7. Christ’s “Two Bodies” and the Meaning of the Body of Christ ([111:47]–[132:59])

Key Points:

• Christ possesses both the “body” of divinity (power, energies) and “body” of humanity (full human nature).
• The Incarnation does not mean God “sets aside divinity”; Christ’s limitations are always voluntary.
• The Eucharist is Christ’s body in both the concrete and the “nexus of powers” sense; the Church as the Body of Christ acts as God’s hands, eyes, and voice in the world.

Notable Quotes:

• “When [the Fathers] use that terminology that way, they’re using [Christ’s] human body... to refer to a concept more that includes his whole human nature, all of his powers...” (Fr. Stephen, [114:16])
• “He has added to himself human powers... The limitations that Christ takes upon himself are... always... voluntary.” (Fr. Stephen, [123:45])
• “The Church is the body of Christ. He is present with us. He’s in our midst. He’s working in our midst.” (Fr. Andrew, [136:08])
• “God sent someone. He sent you, buddy… You’re the one who’s supposed to be doing something about this.” (Fr. Stephen, [130:18])

Final Reflections ([132:14]–[141:11])

Fr. Andrew:
Challenges listeners to step beyond a “magical” or “talismanic” storage-box understanding of “body” and realize that participation in Christ and the Church makes believers into bearers of Christ’s power and presence:

“When you [show mercy or pray]... you were participating in the very power and action and love, the body of God Himself.” ([134:31])

Fr. Stephen:
Reinforces that the Christian faith is embodied:

“The Christian religion is not an immaterial or ghostly religion... We work out our salvation every day in the material world through our bodies by showing love…” ([140:07])

Structural Outline with Timestamps

| Section | Topic | Approx. Timestamp | |------------------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------|-------------------| | Intro & Framework | Definitions of body, anthropomorphism/theomorphism | 01:10–13:43 | | Language & Terms | Contextual use of vocabulary, patristic vs. scriptural terms | 10:12–19:29 | | Human Bodies & Fall | Potentialities, creation, Fall, mortality as gift | 20:27–56:07 | | Angels & Demons | Nature of angelic/demonic bodies; repentance | 61:52–90:41 | | Resurrection | Universal resurrection, transformation, eschatology | 91:54–108:33 | | Christ’s Two Bodies | Incarnation, Eucharist, Church as body of Christ | 111:47–132:59 | | Final Reflections | Pastoral exhortation, humanity as living temple, action | 132:14–141:11 |

Conclusion

Main Message:
Orthodox Christianity’s ancient understanding of “body”—as a nexus of powers, not a mere material object—reframes everything from scriptural language about God and angels, to the meaning of resurrection and the Church’s role in Christ’s continued work. The Incarnation, resurrection, and even the moral life are rooted in this robust, participatory vision of embodiment, calling every Christian to live as “the body of Christ” in the world: not metaphorically, but really and powerfully.

For Further Engagement:

• Read 1 Corinthians 15 for St. Paul’s theology of resurrection.
• Reflect on the prayers and hymns quoted (esp. for the dying) for a liturgical lens on embodiment.
• Practice seeing every act of mercy and worship as a real participation in Christ’s own life and presence.

Notable Quote to End:

“It’s not a metaphor. The Church is the body of Christ. He is present with us. He’s in our midst. He’s working in our midst.” – Fr. Andrew ([136:08])