The Lord of Spirits Podcast

Episode: "Can These Bones Live?"

Date: August 12, 2021

Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young

Overview of the Episode

This episode dives deep into the Orthodox Christian understanding of relics—the veneration of the physical remains of saints—by unpacking how Orthodox tradition perceives the union of the seen and unseen worlds. The hosts explore what it means for a body to be a “nexus of powers and potentialities,” connect this theology to the Incarnation, discuss the transformation of matter by grace, and demonstrate why relics are more than just “dead body parts.” They further relate these ideas to how Christians should understand matter, sacred objects, cremation, and even everyday morality.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ancient Understanding of "Body"

• Bodies as Powers and Potentialities

  • In ancient thought (including the Old Testament), a “body” is not just material (“meat”), but a nexus of powers and potentialities. This understanding applies to both God and angels, who are said to have "bodies" in the sense of possessing unique powers and ways of acting, even if immaterial ([06:05]).
  • Quote:
    “A body, as being, in the ancient understanding, a nexus of powers and potentialities…” – Fr. Stephen ([04:29])

• Nature, Will, and Energy

  • The discussion explains the Greek theological terms that clarify the ancient concept of body:
    • Nature (physis): The set of powers/potential a being possesses.
    • Will (thelema): Movement towards perfection, not just “choices.”
    • Energy (energeia): The working-out or actualization of will in the world ([14:01]-[18:17]).

• Metaphysics & Identity

  • Using the Ship of Theseus, they illustrate that material continuity does not determine identity; instead, it’s what the matter is doing/becoming ([25:05]-[32:18]).

2. Human Beings as Nexus Between the Seen and Unseen

• Humans are noetic (spiritual/intellective) beings with material bodies and serve as a bridge, uniting visible and invisible creation ([56:11]).

• Angels are also noetic beings but lack materiality; animals are material but lack the noetic “imaging” capacity.

• Quote:
  “The human is an animated body, an ensouled body, a body with life in it. If you don’t have a noose, it’s not a human. If you don’t have a material body, it’s not a human.” – Fr. Stephen ([35:37])

3. Veneration of Relics: Theology and Practice

• Relics as Living Presence

  • Relics are not mere remains; they are the continuing bodily presence of the saint ([90:12], [90:28]).
  • Quote:
    “It is still them. And it’s still, therefore, the body of Christ because the works that the saints do are God’s works. So that body is being the body of Christ because it’s doing his works.” – Fr. Andrew ([90:29])

• Matter Transfigured by Grace

  • St. John of Damascus’ defense: Matter is not evil or inert but transfigured by God's energies, especially in the Incarnation ([95:13]-[98:18]).
  • Notable Quote:
    “I do not worship matter. I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake, who worked out my salvation through matter…” – St. John of Damascus, quoted by Fr. Andrew ([96:45])

• Miraculous Relics as Foretaste of the Resurrection

  • Personal testimony: Fr. Andrew describes venerating the hand of St. Mary Magdalene, which was warm and flexible, symbolizing a foretaste of the resurrection ([103:37]).

4. Human Actions: Spiritual Actualization

• Embodiment of Spiritual Realities

  • Humans act as instruments for either divine or demonic powers, actualizing those energies in the world ([57:47]-[66:48]).
  • Quote:
    “When you do what is good, you are functioning as the body of Christ, and when you do what is evil, you are functioning as the body of the demonic powers.” – Fr. Andrew ([65:00])
  • Theosis: When you cooperate with God's energies, you are deified.
  • Demonosis: When you do the works of the demonic, you become like them (St. John Chrysostom, [61:10]).

• Idolatry and Possession

  • Idols function as “ bodies” for demons, and idolators as extensions of demonic activity ([76:07]).

5. The Church as the Body of Christ

• Twofold Sense

  • The Church is the Body of Christ in that:
    • It is Christ acting in the world through its members ([81:36]).
    • It is animated by the Holy Spirit ([84:25]).
  • Quote:
    “It’s not you doing a good deed… it is Christ clothing this person through you as instrument, through you as his body in the world.” – Fr. Stephen ([82:33])

• Holy Tradition as Internal Life

  • Tradition is not a secret knowledge, but the internal life of the Church, the Holy Spirit’s presence ([85:02]).

6. Cremation, Matter, and the Human Person

• Opposition to Cremation
  • Orthodox tradition generally forbids cremation as it erases the human body, which remains the person even after death ([111:59]-[117:10]).
  • Quote:
    “[After death] that body is still that person…to then act upon that body in a way that utterly dissolves it… is not appropriate for Christians” – Fr. Andrew ([114:31])
  • All human bodies are “relics” in this sense.

7. The Christian Relationship to Matter & the World

• Critique of Gnostic/“Spiritual Only” Christianity
  • Christians are called to care deeply for this world and its matter because it is through matter (including our own bodies) that God brings salvation ([118:39]-[124:21]).
  • Quote:
    “…for us as Christians…the matter that makes up the world to come, is not going to be a whole new set of matter. It’s going to be this matter rearranged and transfigured and recreated in that sense.” – Fr. Stephen ([121:40])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Understanding of "Body" and Matter

• Fr. Stephen: “Nature is sort of a set of powers and potentialities… Nature is a function of what it is doing.” ([10:32],[11:24])
• On will: “Will, then, is… the movement that causes [an acorn] to grow toward that perfection, to grow into the oak tree.” ([15:20])

Relics and Presence

• Fr. Andrew: “A relic is the presence of Christ in the saint to us. There’s a sense in which this is a foretaste of the resurrection as well.” ([107:21])
• Fr. Stephen (on the strangeness of American attitudes about bodies): “…our modern, especially American sort of squeamishness and ‘get the body away from me as fast as possible’… That’s the weird aberration… Not, you know, kissing the body of a loved one who has died. That’s not weird. That’s normal for humans.” ([110:21])

Christian Duty to Matter and the World

• Fr. Stephen (on Camus’ critique): “That is foreign to Christianity… for Christians, this world, this material world… is going to be this matter rearranged and transfigured and recreated in that sense.” ([121:40])

The Church and Holy Tradition

• Fr. Stephen: “When we talk about holy tradition… we’re talking about the internal life of the church, which is the Holy Spirit… that is what holy tradition is from an Orthodox perspective.” ([85:02])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:29 – What is a body? Ancient concepts, powers, potentialities
• 14:01 – Will and energy, dynamic nature of being
• 25:05 – Identity and Ship of Theseus; body as ongoing process, not static
• 32:18 – Humans as noetic, bridging the seen/unseen
• 35:37 – Human as an ensouled body
• 57:47 – Human persons as bodies for spiritual beings
• 61:10 – St. John Chrysostom on “becoming a demon”: demons as the dead who lived in sin
• 81:36 – The Body of Christ: Individuals as members, the church as Christ’s body
• 90:12 – Bodies of saints; relics as presence, not just “leftovers”
• 95:13 – St. John of Damascus’ theology of matter
• 103:37 – Personal account: Relics on Mount Athos
• 111:59 – Tradition, relics, and why cremation is incoherent in Orthodox theology
• 118:39 – Albert Camus' critique: Christianity and care for this world
• 121:40 – Materiality and the age to come

Flow of the Episode

The conversation weaves through ancient and modern understandings of body, moves into practical and mystical reasons for venerating relics, discusses everyday moral choices as the materialization of spiritual energies, and builds a theological case for why ‘matter matters’ for Orthodox Christians. Personal stories, patristic texts, and Q&A ground the theology in lived experience.

Conclusion

“Can These Bones Live?” offers a thoroughly Orthodox, enchantingly mystical and deeply practical answer to why relics—indeed all matter—truly matter for Christian life. The hosts urge listeners to see the world not as a “prison of the spirit” to escape but as a sacramental arena where salvation is enacted, for “God works out [our] salvation through matter.”

For further questions or engagement, listeners are encouraged to email lordofspirits@ancientfaith.com or join the Lord of Spirits Podcast Facebook group.