The Lord of Spirits: "Down to Hades: A Chthonic Odyssey"

Podcast Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Air Date: April 9, 2021
Main Theme: Exploring the reality, meaning, and spiritual significance of the underworld (“Hades”, “Sheol”, etc.) in Orthodox Christian tradition, contrasting ancient pagan and scriptural views, and explaining why this vision matters for our lives.

Episode Overview

This episode undertakes a deep-dive into the concept, cultural history, and spiritual meaning of the underworld in Orthodox Christianity. The Fathers discuss how the ancient world viewed the afterlife—not as a hopeful ascent to paradise, but as a descent to a shadowy underworld filled with demonic beings and the spirits of the dead. They show how this worldview shapes biblical language, Orthodox theology, and why Christ’s victory over Hades is uniquely revolutionary. The episode includes rich Q&A, exploring topics like consciousness, ritual, space & time, and the reality (or not) of "neutral" space.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recap on Consciousness, Reality, and Sacred Geography

(01:07–31:28)

• Consciousness Shapes the World: We never encounter the "essence" of things, only their "energies" (operations)—building on Orthodox theology’s distinction between “essence and energies” (07:43).

  • Quote:

    “You know, there's what's called the essence energies distinction… There's, you know, you don't know them as they know themselves. And, and you certainly don't know them the way that God knows them.” — Fr. Andrew (08:51)

• Perception is Not Illusion: Our experience of reality is as real as "objective" facts; e.g., we experience the world as flat, which is real for us even if the Earth is round (04:13–05:58).

• Mantis Shrimp & Objective Reality: Their vision encompasses colors humans cannot conceive; those colors don't “exist” except as seen (10:35–15:24).

  • Quote:

    “The color only exists because there's a conscious mind… The color is produced by that interaction of the light… and the consciousness that is there.” — Fr. Stephen (15:02)

• Time & Space as Perceptions:
  Space/time are not substances but categories of finite consciousness. Ritual and liturgy connect us directly to moments and places—making “paradise” or “Golgotha” present in worship (18:08–24:23).

  • Quote:

    “Space isn't made out of anything. … Neither is time… Space and time are categories and are ways that humans, because they're finite…” — Fr. Stephen (17:35, 17:46)

• Sacred vs. Profane Space: Sacred space is ritually made, not naturally occurring. There is no neutral ground—space/time is either sacred or profaned by human action (36:01).

2. Profane Space and Chthonic Places

(31:28–47:59)

• Making Places Profane: Sins and demonic rituals “taint” locations, giving demons access. The Church sanctifies former pagan/demonic sites via ritual (33:20–35:47).

  • Quote:

    “When we sin, we're participating in the energies in the works of demons… That not only transforms us… but it also… leaves this sort of metaphysical taint, this sort of stain on… the created world.” — Fr. Stephen (32:22)

• Examples of Profane Places:

  • Gehenna (Valley of Hinnom): Place of child sacrifice; becomes synonymous with Hell (37:01–41:18).
  • Mount Hermon: Site of fallen angels in Enoch; considered a literal “gate to the underworld” (42:13–44:27).
  • Mount Lykaion (Wolf Mountain): Oldest Greek altar, site of human sacrifice and cannibalism; associated with werewolf myths; later converted to a Christian site (45:18–47:52).

3. What is the Underworld "Under"?

(61:18–71:41)

• Universal Ancient Belief: Virtually all ancient cultures (except Zoroastrians) buried their dead—imagining the afterlife “down,” beneath the earth. Grave goods reflect a belief in ongoing existence (62:57–63:39).

• Sheol/Hades: Not only the grave but the spiritual realm of the dead and demonic beings.

  • Underworld is not a place of joy, but of darkness, forgetfulness, and sometimes torment.

• Contrast with Mountain of God: Underworld is the inverse of the mountain—a pit or abyss in cosmic geography (65:13).

  • Demons arise from below—imagery found throughout Sumerian, Canaanite and biblical texts (64:17–66:54).

• Greek Views: Hades is both a realm and a god; parallels in Germanic and Semitic languages. Hades evokes sadness, regret, not torment (67:22–70:17).

4. Underworld Geography: The Abyss, Tartarus, Limbo

(71:41–87:12)

• The Abyss/Tartarus:

  • Deepest underworld; place of imprisonment for rebellious gods/angels (“Titans,” Nephilim).
  • Scriptural reference: 2 Peter 2:4 uses “Tartarus” for the place of imprisoned angels (78:33).
  • The River Phlegethon—a river of fire—feeds it, pairing with biblical imagery of a “lake of fire” (80:41).

• Three “Neighborhoods” of Hades (as in 1 Enoch):

  • Bosom of Abraham/Elysian Fields: Resting with the fathers, with springs of water—best possible afterlife for the righteous (81:40–83:24).
  • Waiting Room to the Abyss: For those destined for destruction (84:11).
  • The Land of Meh (Asphodel Meadows/Limbo): Shadowy, neutral existence with no joy, not quite torment.

• No True Hope: Even the “best” pagan afterlife is barely better than nothing; only a shadow of true life (124:37).

5. Crossing Over: Mythic Rivers and Soul’s Journey

(103:19–111:26)

• River Crossing as Threshold:

  • In multiple traditions, to reach the underworld, you must cross a river (Styx, Acheron, Lake Acherusia, etc.).
  • Role of Charon the ferryman; coin in mouth; without passage, you remain in limbo.

• Christianization of This Imagery:

  • Parallels in Orthodox tradition: prayers for the soul's journey (“Acherusian Lake” used as symbol of soul’s purification in the Greek Life of Adam and Eve, the Apocalypse of Paul, etc.).
  • Prayers and Angels: Tradition of the soul’s “40 days” journey, aided by prayers, angels, saints (101:40–102:39).

6. The Castle/Palace of Hades and Its Brass Gates

(111:26–122:33)

• Underworld Palace: Symbolizes false dominion of death; its “brazen gates” are not a mark of strength, but a parody (brass is the “pleather” of bronze; inferior and fake) (115:16–121:35).

  • Quote:

    “That quote, wisdom. That quote unquote, secret knowledge is trash… The demons are trying to sell you snake oil. It's a con job.” — Fr. Stephen (121:28–121:35)

• Held Captive: The “fortress” of Hades is not to keep people out, but trapped in—a place of the devil’s defeated, false power (122:27).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sacred vs. Profane Space:

  “There is no neutral ground. … This is part of our mission as Christians—to go out and reclaim the created order and make it sacred and holy again.” — Fr. Stephen (36:01)

• On Ritual Participation:

  “It's not that [the cross] stands for the cross of Christ. It is being the cross of Christ.” — Fr. Andrew (23:32)

• On Pagan Hope:

  “Ancient paganism has no concept of getting to heaven. … For most people, there is nothing like that. There is just simply, you go to Hades…” — Fr. Andrew (124:47)

• On Christian Hope:

  “The difference with Christianity is to say that the grave is not the end, that the underworld is not the end… There is a possibility for hope, for being lifted up out of that.” — Fr. Andrew (126:52)

• On the Modern World:

  “You can declare yourself secular all you want… When you set out to create your utopia on Earth, you're going to create hell. … If you want to change the world—serve the liturgy… make every encounter… filled with love and mercy and gentleness and kindness… that's when paradise actually comes to earth.” — Fr. Stephen (127:20, 130:38)

Listener Q&A – Selected Highlights

• Astral Projection: “The ecstatic experience is an experience of me departing from the time and space where I am and being in that other space… That happens, but… not by practicing certain techniques” (52:01–54:15)
• Veneration vs. Worship: Swinging incense before icons purifies space, but only God receives true worship (sacrifice/incense). Bowing to or venerating idols is forbidden because you don’t venerate demons (56:55–60:52).
• Soul Sleep & Annihilationism: Orthodox tradition holds no “soul sleep” or “annihilation”—conscious experience continues until the resurrection, with the dead experiencing a foretaste of paradise or judgment (91:27–97:13).
• Demigods as Giants: Figures like Gilgamesh and other mythological demigods are understood as “giants” (Nephilim, part-divine) in Second Temple and early Christian literature (97:33–99:57).

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Start Time | End Time | |----------------------------------------|------------|-----------| | Introduction & Recap | 01:07 | 31:28 | | Profane Space & Sacred Geography | 31:28 | 47:59 | | Why is Underworld "Under"? | 61:18 | 71:41 | | Underworld Geography (Abyss, Limbo) | 71:41 | 87:12 | | Q&A: Astral Projection, Worship, etc. | 49:46 | 61:02 | | Q&A: Soul Sleep, Giants, Intermediate | 89:27 | 103:19 | | Underworld Rivers & Crossing Over | 103:19 | 111:26 | | Underworld Palace & Brass Gates | 111:26 | 122:33 | | Conclusion & Final Thoughts | 122:33 | 131:54 |

Conclusion & Relevance

The ancient image of the underworld was one of inescapable gloom, chaos, and captivity—not hope. The revolutionary claim of Christianity isn’t that this is a metaphor, but that Christ conquers the underworld and offers real liberation—changing the meaning of death and making hope possible.

Practical Takeaway:
If you want to make a little part of the world paradise, you don’t do it by technique or willpower—you do it by prayer, worship, sanctifying everyday life, and participating in God’s presence. The sacred/profane distinction is real and ever-present; choose to participate in sanctifying the world.

For full context, worship and Q&A are richly expanded in the transcript. The next episode ("The Gates of Hell") promises to explore how Christ’s descent into the underworld overturns this ancient order.

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