Podcast Summary: The Lord of Spirits – “Every Stick of Wood in the Old Testament”

Podcast: The Lord of Spirits
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick, Fr. Stephen De Young
Episode Date: April 11, 2025
Episode Theme: The Cross, Crucifixion, and the Union of the Seen and Unseen Worlds in Orthodox Christian Tradition

Episode Overview

In this rich and expansive episode, Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen De Young delve into the meaning of the Cross and crucifixion within the Orthodox Christian tradition. The hosts unpack the complexities of atonement, ransom, purification, and participation in Christ’s sacrificial offering by exploring biblical, historical, and spiritual dimensions. They challenge common misconceptions, particularly penal substitutionary atonement, and highlight the participatory nature of redemption as opposed to mere substitution. This episode is especially timely as it leads into Holy Week, connecting theology to practical Christian life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Meaning of Crucifixion

• Historical Roots:

  • Crucifixion was not invented by the Romans but by the Persians; Romans later perfected it as a tool of terror and humiliation, particularly for non-citizens (06:04–07:26).
  • The process included public torture, nakedness, and sometimes creative cruelty to maximize humiliation and deterrence (10:00–12:34).

• Roman Practice and Pontius Pilate:

  • Pilate was notorious for using crucifixion to instill fear and suppress revolt, notably crucifying hundreds during Passover for intimidation (14:22–15:54).

• Biblical Significance:

  • Crucifixion for Jews connoted public curse, referencing Deuteronomy 21:22–23: "anyone who is hanged is accursed" (19:01–22:15).
  • The removal of bodies before sundown in the Gospel accounts is rooted in their concern to prevent the spread of ‘curse’ or spiritual pollution before Passover (26:56–28:10).

2. Curse, Corruption, and the Law

• Meaning of ‘Curse’:

  • ‘Curse’ encompasses metaphysical taint from sin, resulting in uncleanness, decay, and disunity between humanity, God, and creation (30:18–34:28).
  • The New Testament focus is not that the Law (Torah) is itself a curse, but that the ‘curse of the Law’ refers to the consequences outlined in Torah, notably exile and death for refusing God’s commandments (34:57–38:58).

• Blessings and Curses in the Torah:

  • Leviticus and Deuteronomy spell out blessings for those in unity with God, and curses (poverty, barrenness, exile, death) for those who are not (36:36–39:08).
  • St. Paul’s reference to Christ redeeming "from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us" is directly tied to this context, not to a penal transaction (41:42–42:01).

3. Participation, Not Substitution

• Not ‘Instead of,’ but ‘With’:

  • Unlike substitutionary theories, Orthodox theology stresses our participation in Christ: dying with Christ, rising with Christ, being baptized into His death and resurrection.

  “The language that's used in the New Testament is not language of substitution, it's language of participation. And those are two very different things.” – Fr. Stephen (52:46)

• Baptism and Union with Christ:

  • Baptism is the entry point:

    “That's the point in which we're initiated into that.” – Fr. Stephen (77:02)

  • Salvation unfolds as our life participates in what Christ has already accomplished.

• Martyrdom and Christian Life:

  • The suffering of martyrs is transformative in Christ, not by its own merit (60:20).
  • The ultimate aim is theosis and ongoing participation in divine life.

4. Redemption as Manumission (Release from Slavery)

• Passover Image:

  • The dominant scriptural metaphor is Exodus: Christ’s death as the Passover (Pascha), freeing humanity from slavery to sin and death (86:05–86:33).

• Slavery and Debt Metaphors:

  • Sin is likened to debt; Christ’s sacrifice ransoms, redeems, and frees us, not by ‘paying God’ but by destroying sin and death’s claim (89:31–92:14).

• Universal Resurrection and Judgment:

  • The freedom Christ wins is universal:

    “Everyone will be raised, but some will be raised to life and some will be raised to damnation.” – Fr. Andrew (110:05)

  • Christ has authority to judge all because He has redeemed all (111:55).

5. Sacrifice, Purification, and Self-offering

• “Atonement” and Its Limitations:

  • “Atonement” (AT-one-ment) is a late English invention. The more accurate rendering of biblical terms refers to purification or purgation, especially wiping away impurity to allow union with God (126:11–127:32).

• Christ as Sin Offering:

  • In 2 Corinthians 5:21, Christ is made a “sin offering”—the Greek and Hebrew play on words implies ‘offering,’ not ‘becoming’ sin (128:44–129:44).
  • Martyrdom, as seen in 2 Maccabees, is a prefiguring: the righteous can offer their lives for Israel’s cleansing, yet only Christ’s offering is cosmic and final (133:11–135:17).

• Living Sacrifice:

  • St. Paul commands:

    “Present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.” (Romans 12:1; 167:13)

  • Sacrifice is literal in the Eucharist, metaphorical in pouring our entire lives into love, mutual service, and union with God and each other (173:06–174:53).

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Crucifixion’s Origin (06:04):

  “It was actually the Persians … The Romans kind of perfected it … They used it constantly on non-Romans. … Romans got beheaded. That’s why St. Peter was crucified, St. Paul was beheaded.” – Fr. Stephen

• On Substitution vs. Participation (53:07):

  “Substitution models would be Christ dies instead of us. … The language that’s all through the New Testament: we die with Christ, we die in Christ, and then we rise with Christ and we rise in Christ.”

• On God's Judgment and Redemption (112:01):

  “Everyone is raised. Everyone is raised. … He has redeemed everyone. … But that means Christ is going to judge everyone.”

• On "Curse" in Scripture (34:28):

  “Being cursed is living at your worst. Being blessed is living at your best.”

• On Atonement Language (127:05):

  “Pretty much everyone is agreeing that a better way to translate those verbs is something like purification or purgation.”

• On Propitiation and Wrath (161:24):

  “The problem with the idea that what humanity is trying to do is to make it so God is not mad at us … is it suggests that God is the one who needs the therapy, not us.”

• On Living Sacrifice (168:01):

  “It’s not substitution, it’s participation. Christ, who is the firstborn from the dead … we then follow him, so he’s made a way and then we walk the way.”

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [05:51] – Introduction to the Roman and Persian origins of crucifixion
• [18:01] – Deuteronomy, the curse, and its relevance to Christ’s death
• [34:57] – What is “the curse of the law” and its biblical context
• [53:03] – Substitution vs. Participation: New Testament language
• [60:41] – The role of baptism, ongoing participation, and grace
• [86:05] – Christ’s death as the new Passover/Exodus—manumission and ransom
• [92:06] – Sin as debt and Christ as the canceler of that debt
• [110:05] – Universal resurrection and Christ as judge of all
• [126:06] – The limitations of “atonement”; the language of purification
• [128:44] – Christ as the ultimate sin offering (2 Corinthians 5:21)
• [167:13] – Romans 12:1—“Present your bodies as a living sacrifice...”

Call-in Questions and Noteworthy Interactions

• Jack from Charlotte, NC [66:01]: Asks about the cosmic/once-for-all atonement and ongoing struggle with sin—how does Christ’s work apply daily?

  • Fr. Stephen: “Each of us comes to participate in the reality of what Christ has done over the course of our lifetime... You are now having what Christ has done enter into your personal experience” (73:26–76:45).

• Deacon Danilo from Reno, NV [78:11]: Saint Athanasius and being “lifted up”—does Christ’s crucifixion conquer aerial spirits?

  • Fr. Stephen affirms: “He is crucified at this center point of all creation, drawing all that was separated back together through his death” (82:34–84:35).

• Brian from Pittsburgh [140:06]: Are there relics of St. Dismas's cross?

  • The hosts discuss cross relics’ traditions; Fr. Stephen: “There are a bunch of traditions about St. Dismas in Egypt…” (141:55).

• Roger from Canada [147:11]: Explores Hebrew and Greek grammar, biblical interpretation.

  • Fr. Stephen: “You can’t really understand the New Testament if you just go and learn classical Greek… You have to know some Hebrew and/or Aramaic” (151:39–152:48).

Final Reflections

On the Cross and Christian Life

“What Christ is presenting to us is a different path. And that path begins when we take the suffering of this life... we shoulder it, we own up to it, we bear up under it, and we go forward, nonetheless, because we’re following Christ.” – Fr. Stephen (177:41–184:02)

On Participation and Love

"We present our bodies as a living sacrifice... that the way that we live should function as a unifying movement between us and God, and also between each other... as we look upon the cross, let it transform you... so that we join our suffering to his suffering, our love to his love, our sacrifice to his sacrifice for the life of the world and its salvation." – Fr. Andrew (168:01–176:51)

Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive, theologically rich exploration of the Cross that roots the Christian experience in the reality of Christ’s self-offering, ongoing redemption, and transformative participation. In challenging common Western atonement models, the hosts call listeners to live out the mystery of the Cross in active, loving unity—both with God and within the community of the Church.

Recommended Listening for Further Insight:

• Previous episodes on Atonement, Blessings and Curses, and Participation in Christ
• For questions or follow-up, contact: lordofspirits@ancientfaith.com