The Lord of Spirits – "His Ministers Flaming Fire"

Date: November 13, 2020
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Podcast Description: Exploring the seen and unseen world in Orthodox Christian tradition – angels, saints, spiritual reality, and the union of the seen and unseen.

Episode Overview

In this episode, Fr. Andrew and Fr. Stephen delve deep into the nature and ministry of angels and saints in Orthodox Christian theology, focusing on their ongoing roles in God's governance, their intercessory work, and how humans are called to participate with them as "sons of God." The hosts seek to break modern, secular notions of spiritual "flatness," reinvigorate understanding of the active spiritual world, and respond to common Protestant objections regarding veneration, worship, and prayer to saints and angels.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Rethinking Heaven and the Spiritual Life

• [01:39] Fr. Andrew shares a J.R.R. Tolkien letter about heaven as a place where unfinished good is completed, challenging the bland, static ideas of the afterlife.
• Heaven isn't a "permanent tropical vacation" or simply "a place where nothing ever happens," but involves ongoing purpose and fulfillment.
  • "Is heaven really a good end? For many it sounds kind of boring... Well, that's bunk. Tonight we're going to discuss what exactly all of this Christian life is aiming at. What does it mean to be saved? When we get to the other side of the resurrection, will we actually have anything to do?" – Fr. Andrew [02:36]

2. The "Twofold Ministry" of Angels and Glorified Humans

• [04:32] Fr. Stephen outlines that both angels and glorified humans serve God's administration—some as rulers and others as intercessors.
• Humans, as adopted sons of God, are called to fill the "job openings" left by the fallen angels—i.e., those who lost their place through rebellion.
• The ministry of saints in glory is active, not passive; the Christian life and afterlife is about governing, interceding, and participating in God's ongoing work.

3. The Living Spiritual Ecosystem—Practical Participation

• [06:35] The hosts stress that Orthodox engagement with angels and saints isn't just status, but practical and relational.
  • Saints will "reign with Christ" (see the repeated scriptural promise), but reigning is more than thrones and crowns—it's about an ongoing, active role.
  • Fr. Andrew compares this to not realizing your workplace is full of unseen colleagues just because you don't run into them.

4. Intercession: Angels, Saints, and Us

• [10:16] Fr. Stephen notes the crucial distinction that saints and angels aren't intermediaries blocking our access to God—rather, they join with, pray for, and intercede alongside us.
• The ancient world had constant awareness of spiritual encounters, unlike the modern "flattened" perspective (Fr. Andrew).

5. Biblical and Ancient Jewish Sources for Intercession

• Job 5:1 – "To which of the holy ones will you address your case?" demonstrates asking for intercession from angels/saints was ancient.
• Greek OT (LXX) stresses "holy angels," confirming Jewish understanding predating Christianity ([17:18]).
• 1 Enoch 15 – Fallen angels beg Enoch to pray for them; God rebukes them, saying their job was to intercede for humans—not the other way around ([20:06]).
• Greek Life of Adam and Eve/Apocalypse of Moses – When Adam and Eve repent, sun, moon, stars, and angels also offer prayers and incense on their behalf ([22:44]).
  • "While they're undertaking these actions of repentance... the sun and the moon and the stars and the angels are said to be praying and offering incense to God on their behalf." – Fr. Stephen [23:05]

6. Orthodox Tradition as Continuation, not Innovation

• Quoting extra-biblical works like 1 Enoch isn't about deriving unique doctrine, but displaying continuity with ancient faith ([23:41]).
• Orthodox practice retains the ancient practice: asking angels/saints to pray for us doesn't mean we can't pray directly to God but incorporates the whole family of God in prayer.

7. The Meaning of "Pray for Us"

• "Pray for us doesn't mean pray so that we don't have to... It's alongside and that's..." – Fr. Stephen [27:22]
• Psalms and Orthodox liturgy often explicitly invoke and invite angels to pray and worship with us ([28:29]).

8. Royal Priesthood: Ruling and Interceding

• Saints take up both the royal and the priestly ministries intended for the original sons of God—paralleled in New Testament and ancient Israel ([29:37]).
• Revelation 20:4-6 (read at [31:59]) – Describes martyrs reigning and serving as priests with Christ now, confirming the current, active role of departed saints.
  • "This is quite literally talking about the departed saints and what they're doing right now. And that is they are reigning with Christ and they are serving as priests—which means they're interceding and they're offering worship and praise." – Fr. Stephen [35:20]

9. Objections from Protestant & Western Mindsets

a. Veneration vs. Worship ([44:04])

• Protestants may view Orthodox veneration of saints and angels as idolatry because it appears similar to "worship."
• Fr. Andrew explains worship in ancient and Orthodox context focuses on sacrificial offering (Eucharist, incense) to God alone; veneration involves honor, not sacrifice.
  • "We don't offer the Eucharist to angels, we don't offer incense to saints. We offer those things to God alone. And so for us it's like, well, you know, you say, well, you know, you're worshiping saints. We're like, well, no, we didn't offer them the Eucharist." – Fr. Andrew [48:12]
• Historic examples: ancient pagans offered sacrifices to their kings/gods, but Israel/Jewish tradition refused to offer sacrifices to anyone but the true God.

b. Necromancy Accusation

• Asking the saints for intercession is often labeled "necromancy" by critics.
• The hosts clarify: Necromancy involves trying to control or summon the dead, especially for secret knowledge, which is categorically different from the Orthodox practice of communal prayer and intercession.
  • Classic quote: "We're not the Illuminati sitting around some giant pyramid... 'Oh, St. Nicholas, tell us the future.' That's not what's going on." – Fr. Andrew [86:09]
• Communion with saints in the Eucharist is not necromancy; true communion is in Christ, versus the sacrificial magic of pagans.

10. Practical Questions & Audience Q&A

• [67:25] - Can Orthodox Christians be possessed? Possession requires active invitation; baptism is protection, but one can fall away by choice.
  • "Being an Orthodox Christian is not like being a Jet, when you're a Jet, you're a Jet for life." – Fr. Stephen [95:13]
• [74:09] - Mental illness and spiritual affliction: These can overlap; the key is how suffering is received and used for spiritual growth.
• [74:44] - Who do we rule over in the age to come? “Ruling” is not about lording over others, but loving, serving, and caretaking, after the model of Christ.
• [38:46] - Are planets angels? Physical aspects (sun, stars) have spiritual beings—angels—associated with them; pagans misunderstood this, worshiping the created rather than the Creator.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• "The direction that you offer your worship is really important. It's not just, okay, you're doing this act of worship, but to whom is it being offered?" – Fr. Andrew [56:06]
• "Wherever Christ is, there are the saints, there are the angels, there are all the hosts of heaven there with him." – Fr. Stephen [104:39]
• "As Christians, we're never alone... we're never going to be alone. This communion and this fellowship and this family... is something that's going to last forever." – Fr. Stephen [106:20]
• On ancient practices: "When you read the interpretation... Rachel weeping for her children... that Rachel actually was weeping and praying and interceding for her children." – Fr. Stephen [82:31]
• On veneration: "When the Orthodox say that we venerate and honor saints and angels, that's what we mean. That is what we mean. And really nothing else." – Fr. Andrew [64:41]

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------|------------------| | Overview of heaven and purpose | 01:39 – 03:57 | | The twofold ministry: ruling and interceding | 04:19 – 05:56 | | Practicality of spiritual reality/participation| 06:35 – 10:16 | | Ancient Jewish sources on intercession | 16:35 – 25:07 | | Psalms & Liturgy: Angels worship with us | 27:22 – 29:37 | | Biblical proof of saints as royal priests | 31:58 – 36:09 | | Objection: Veneration vs Worship | 44:04 – 54:49 | | Objection: Necromancy | 79:19 – 91:24 | | Q&A and Practical Spiritual Questions | 67:25 – 97:36 | | Final summary and pastoral encouragement | 101:25 – 107:00 |

Episode Tone

Approachable, deeply scriptural, sometimes playful, and unfailingly pastoral. Both priests continually invite listeners to expand their imagination about the spiritual world while grounding their arguments in ancient sources and Orthodox liturgical life. There's a repeated call to abandon modern "flat" ways of thinking and embrace an enchanted, interconnected view of spiritual reality.

Summary

This episode offers a detailed theological and practical exploration of how angels and saints participate—and how Christians are called to participate—with God in the ongoing governance, care, and intercession for the world. By addressing common Protestant objections, rooting their claims in scripture and ancient tradition, and emphasizing that all veneration leads to the glory of God, the hosts reframe Orthodox engagement with the "unseen world" as a robust, communal, and hope-filled vision—a Christian life (and afterlife) that's intensely active, relational, and far from boring.

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