The Lord of Spirits Podcast

Episode: How (and How Not) to Read the Bible (April 14, 2022)
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition—A Methodology for Reading Scripture

Episode Overview

This episode tackles a foundational question for Christians: how should we read the Bible? The discussion examines historical and modern approaches to biblical interpretation, why modern frameworks often miss the point, and the distinctive approach within Orthodox Christianity. The hosts trace the evolution of “history,” the pitfalls of modern and postmodern readings, and set forth the Orthodox patristic and liturgical vision for engaging Scripture as part of a living tradition—inviting listeners to move beyond proof-texting toward transformative participation in Christ.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is History—and Why Does it Matter for Reading the Bible?

[02:46–25:54] Fr. Stephen launches the discussion around “What is history?”

• In pre-modern times, history was an integrated narrative woven from the Bible, extra-biblical literature, and classical sources (e.g., Homer, Virgil). It wasn’t an “objective” record but a story told by, to, and for a particular people.
• The aim: to convey “where we came from, who we are, and where we are going” as a people.
• History and identity were intentionally connected. A story’s selection, emphases, and omissions formed a shared ethos and sense of destiny.
• Notable Quote:

  “The way people feel good or bad about Abraham Lincoln is just going to be different than the way they feel about William Howard Taft... Lincoln is considered much more significant for the American story.”
  —Fr. Andrew [13:08]

Participation and Ritual:

• Rituals (like liturgy or naturalization ceremonies) embed participants into the narrative—e.g., Christians refer to “Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” as our fathers, regardless of ethnic background ([23:39]).

2. Modernism: History as Science, Bible as Artifact

[25:56–54:58] The Shift to Wissenschaft (“science”)

• Late 18th/19th century: German scholarship redefined history as a science (Wissenschaft)—collecting evidence, forming hypotheses, “objectively reconstructing” the past.
• The Bible became one data point; the task was to “discover what really happened” behind the story.
• Results:
  • Attempts to de-mythologize Scripture (“Jesus walked on a sandbar” not water)
  • Dismissal of the supernatural, reducing the Bible to myth or legend unless “proven.”
  • The emergence of “biblical archaeology” as a faith-defense mechanism for conservatives.
• Notable Quote:

  “The Bible now is not a history to be incorporated into your history. The Bible is now a piece of evidence… to be weighed against other pieces of evidence.”
  —Fr. Stephen [38:49]

Fundamentalism as a Reaction:

• Early 20th century conservatives insisted on Scripture’s “objective truth,” resulting in movements like Fundamentalism, insisting: “if the Bible gets details wrong, throw Christianity in the garbage.”
• Both modernist and fundamentalist camps share the modernist assumption: the Bible is about making verifiable, objective claims.
• Notable Quote:

  “Young earth creationism is modernism.”
  —Fr. Stephen [54:22]

3. Postmodernism: The Skeptical Turn

[55:41–64:45] Postmodern (Poststructuralist) Critique

• Postmodernism suspects all official stories (“hermeneutic of suspicion”), reducing everything to perspectives and power plays.
• All readings are subjective, and meaning is whatever emerges in the interaction between reader and text.
• Standpoint epistemology: “As a [x], I read the text this way”—meaning becomes privatized and fragmented.
• Problem: If a text can “mean anything, it means nothing.” No shared story, community, or stable meaning.
• Notable Quote:

  “[It] atomizes meaning. We’re no longer a community that has this story as part of our shared history. We’re a group of individuals, each with a particular connection to this story… you can't build community based on that.”
  —Fr. Stephen [65:56]

4. What’s Wrong with 'Orthodox' “Backwards Reading”?

[81:01–98:02] The Inadequacy of “Backwards” Patristic Reading

• Common approaches:
  • “Just read what the Fathers say, there’s your meaning.”
  • “Use the Fathers to interpret the NT, then the NT to interpret the OT.”
• Problems:
  • Fathers don’t always agree; how do you pick?
  • Their “perspective” is not given in a vacuum.
  • This “backwards” method assumes things get clearer over time—but Maximus the Confessor is not easier to understand than the prodigal son.
  • All texts require interpretation, context, and a reader.
• Key Insight:

  “To understand how these things come to flower and be fulfilled in Christ, you have to follow that growth, that gradual unfolding… We're always starting in the Neolithic era on this show, or the beginning of Genesis.”
  —Fr. Stephen [105:18]

5. The Orthodox Vision: Reading Forward, with the Church

[98:04–116:28] A Living, Participatory Hermeneutic

• The Orthodox approach is “reading forward”: Old Testament → New Testament → Fathers / Liturgy.
• Truth grows organically, like an acorn into a tree; the OT is not superseded but brought to fullness in Christ.
• The Bible is not a modern book “making claims.” It is the story of a people, into which you are invited.
• Hegelian Flowering (yes, really):
  • Concepts in Scripture develop, not replace; you can’t understand the “oak” of the NT/Fathers without the “acorn” (OT).
• Notable Quote:

  “The Bible is not a history textbook. It's telling a story—the story of a people—to which you are invited to belong.”
  —Fr. Stephen [75:29]

6. Application Over Interpretation: Scripture as Mystery

[133:05–153:36] The Distinction

• The Fathers don’t treat the Bible as an intellectual puzzle to extract a kernel of meaning. Instead, their sermons and commentaries are acts of application, using Scripture to address concrete, pastoral issues in specific communities.
• Scripture as Mystery/Sacrament:
  • The public, liturgical reading of Scripture is the tradition’s “normal” context, not individual private study.
  • “Encountering Christ” occurs not only in reading, but in obeying—living the commandments is itself an encounter with God’s energies.
• Notable Quote:

  “We should think about meaning in terms of the Scriptures in much the same way [as essence and energies in theology]… God is acting through the Scriptures.”
  —Fr. Stephen [135:47]

How to Apply?

• The wise read and apply Scripture first and foremost to themselves and to those in their real care (not as judgment on others).
• “If I walk away from the Scriptures saying, ‘yeah, those people over there are rotten,’ I’m doing it wrong.”
  —Fr. Stephen [153:27]

7. The Goal: Transformation & Salvation, Not Data

[157:15–end]

• It’s not the study of the Bible or the correct “method” that saves, but faithfully living and applying it in obedient love—especially toward “the least of these.”
• Encountering Christ in the Scriptures and in life requires action, not just correct opinions.
• Notable Quotes:

  “Can you be saved without this intellectual understanding? Absolutely… But if you have the capability, then you have the responsibility.”
  —Fr. Andrew [162:26]
  “If you want to know where Christ is right now, he is with the people who are sick, the people who are alienated and suffering, the people who are alone and who are lonely… We just have to be willing to actually do it, to actually participate, to actually help and to actually love them also.”
  —Fr. Stephen [168:10]

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Modern Bible Reading:

  “The Bible now is not a history to be incorporated into your history. The Bible is now a piece of evidence… to be weighed against other pieces of evidence.”
  —Fr. Stephen [38:49]

• On the Goal of Reading:

  “The Bible…is the story of a people—to which you are invited to belong.”
  —Fr. Stephen [75:29]

• On Essence & Energies:

  “We encounter God in action. Right. The divine energies are God, but they're God in action.”
  —Fr. Stephen [135:12]

• On Salvation and Obedience:

  “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
  —Fr. Andrew quoting Christ [158:29]

• On Pastoral Focus:

  “The wise man applies everything in the scriptures to himself and none of it to other people.”
  —attributed to St. Macarius (attributed by the hosts) [152:33]

• On Community and Story:

  “We're no longer a community… We're a group of individuals, each who in our own subjectivity has a particular connection to this story… and so you can't build community based on that.”
  —Fr. Stephen [65:56]

Essential Timestamps and Segments

• 01:46: Topic introduction—why consider “how to read the Bible”
• 05:31–25:54: Pre-modern vs. modern history and the Bible
• 25:56–54:58: Modernism, Wissenschaft, and shift in biblical interpretation
• 55:41–64:45: Postmodernism and interpretive subjectivism
• 81:01–98:02: Why “just look up the Fathers” is more complicated than it seems
• 98:04–116:28: The “reading forward” approach; biblical story as growing, not static
• 133:05–153:36: Scripture as mystery/sacrament; public reading and application in the Church
• 157:15–end: Salvation, obedience, and the ultimate purpose of reading Scripture

Tone and Style

Throughout, the hosts are erudite, playful, occasionally self-deprecating, and gently irreverent (“send your angry cards and letters to Father Andrew—I won’t read them,” Fr. Stephen [54:05]). They frequently banter and use comic asides (including a running joke about “the Ark Encounter”), but always return to earnest seriousness regarding the purpose and life-changing potential of Scripture.

Final Takeaways

• Scripture is not a dead artifact or a set of claims to verify.
  It is the living story of God with and among His people, to be experienced, internalized, and enacted—above all, in the context of the liturgical, sacramental life of the Church and in obedience to Christ.
• Reading the Bible rightly means being formed by it, not standing in judgment over it, and certainly not using it as a weapon against others.
• The goal:
  To be transformed, to encounter and join Christ in His saving work—especially among those “the world” forgets.

For those who haven’t listened:
This episode is a panorama of Christian history, philosophy, and practical wisdom—equipping listeners for a life-giving, communal, and transformative engagement with the Holy Scriptures in the Orthodox tradition.