The Lord of Spirits Podcast Episode: I Will Make a Distinction Date: April 25, 2025 Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition—Setting the Stage for Israel’s Story

Overview

This episode launches a new three-part arc focused on the history of Israel in the Orthodox Christian understanding, exploring how the union of the seen and unseen realms shapes both the scripture’s grand narrative and the identity of Israel as God’s people. The hosts aim to “set the table” for deeper explorations in upcoming episodes by clarifying major biblical frameworks, discussing the promises to Abraham, dispelling modern misconceptions (especially dispensationalism), and defining who and what Israel is meant to be. Throughout, the episode emphasizes the spiritual reality underlying historical events, challenging listeners to look beyond simplistic or systematized approaches to scripture.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting up the Series: Why Focus on Israel?

• The history of Israel is a key narrative framework within which the whole of scripture operates.
• “The promises made to Abraham and how they are fulfilled is the theme of the whole Bible. That’s what the whole Bible is about.” (C, 08:37)
• The series will trace the shape, purpose, and destiny of Israel—who’s in, who’s out, and what’s at stake in its story.

2. The Promises to Abraham: Items and Sequence (10:27—19:15)

The Three-Part Promise:

• Descendants: Abraham is promised countless offspring—fulfillment begins with Isaac, but points beyond mere biological inheritance.
• Land: Abraham’s descendants are to possess a significant territory. However, this land is a sign of something greater, not the ultimate end.
• Becoming like the Stars: The ultimate promise, as interpreted through the lens of “theosis”, is that Abraham’s offspring will become “like the stars of heaven” (i.e., angelic, divine beings, replacing fallen powers).

The Sequence of Signs:

• Biblical prophecies often include immediate “signs” as down-payments for ultimate fulfillment (e.g., the birth of Isaac is a sign to trust that all God’s promises will unfold eventually).
• “The land that his descendants possess is a sign, not the goal.” (C, 18:49)
• The final, spiritual fulfillment (“stars of heaven”, theosis) is anticipated but not realized within Abraham’s earthly life.

3. Israel Among the Nations: Abrahamites, Gentiles, and Identity (20:07—37:34)

• Abraham, Father of Many Nations:
  • The “nations” stemming from Abraham include Edom, Moab, Ammon, Ishmael, etc.—not just Israel.
  • The scriptural category does not apply the modern sense of ethnicity; rather, the “nations” have unique roles and relationships to God (see Deuteronomy 2:18–25 discussion at 28:04).
  • These Abrahamite nations initially worship Yahweh and are treated similarly to Israel (they receive land, drive out giants), but over time fall away.
  • “There are in the Old Testament these groups of non-Israelite Abrahamites who aren’t Israelites but aren’t really Gentiles either.” (C, 26:03)
• Gentiles: The “70 nations” delineated after Babel are treated differently—God creates Israel as a new nation, not chosen from them.
• **Notable Example: Job is depicted in Greek tradition as an Edomite worshipper of Yahweh (38:26), outside Israel but inside faithfulness.

4. Defining Israel: Not Merely Biological Descent (83:38—96:35)

• The people brought out of Egypt were not exclusively biological descendants of Jacob/Israel; the “mixed multitude” included Egyptians and others.

• Belonging to Israel required becoming part of a family/clan/tribe, not merely religious or ethnic self-identification (90:14).

• Judah, for instance, included non-descendants like Caleb (a Kenizzite, i.e., Canaanite). Dan, meanwhile, was composed largely of Sea Peoples from Crete, barely related biologically (92:44).

  • “Dan seems to have been a failure of assimilation, shall we say… They sort of get pushed back out of Israel, like spit out later on…” (C, 96:36)

• Boundary Marker: The key distinction defining Israel was participation in Passover—who put the lamb’s blood on their doorpost. Obedience, not ancestry, marked one as Israel (99:40).

5. Ritual Participation, Passover, and National Formation (97:28—104:42)

• The first Passover (the blood on the lintel) determined who was Israel; obedience marked belonging.
  • “Anyone who puts the blood on the doorpost is now an Israelite. Doesn’t matter who their dad, grandpa, great grandpa is… You are now an Israelite.” (C, 99:37)
• The collective experience of passing through the Red Sea established a shared birth in water and blood—“newborn Israel is born in water and blood,” prefiguring later Christian sacramental motifs (102:10).
• Israel is unique among Abrahamite nations in being constituted by this collective, participatory event—a spiritual and communal, not merely genetic, identity.

6. Sinai, Torah, and the Purpose of Election (115:04—132:38)

• Giving of Torah (Pentecost):

  • The Torah defines Israel’s way of life (nomos), setting the trajectory for every cultural, legal, and religious aspect.
  • Unlike Edom, Moab, etc., only Israel is given Torah, and only Israel is tasked with the distinct vocation of embodying God’s will on earth as a people.

• Election and Purpose:

  • Israel is “chosen for a purpose”—to play a role for the Abrahamite nations and the world (119:11).
  • The Torah’s blessings/curses are strictly about the land as a sign—not about earning eternal life or “salvation” in a Christian sense (133:24).
  • “The Torah is very deliberately not aimed at that ultimate fulfillment… It does not set itself out as a means by which humans become like the stars of heaven.” (C, 133:36)
  • “Obedience to the Torah does not equal theosis, nor was it intended as a means to it.” (Summarized from 134:00–135:48.)

7. Did Ancient Israel as Conceived in Torah Ever Exist? (124:54–130:18)

• The prescriptive nation envisioned in the Torah—a community living according to all its commandments—never existed in full. Repeatedly, scripture and tradition attest that Israel failed to realize this ideal.
  • E.g., never observing the Jubilee, persistent idolatry, never achieving collective faithfulness.
• “So the picture of Israel that we’re given… is not something that ever really came to exist in the real world. It was an idea, it was a goal.” (C, 130:01)
• This becomes key in understanding St. Paul’s argument about the “powerlessness” of Torah—not because the Law is bad, but because people are flawed.

8. The Messiness of History and Spiritual Life (146:00–151:19)

• Embrace the Mess: The hosts repeatedly encourage listeners to let go of neat, oversystematized understandings of scripture, Israel, and God’s action.
  • “If we don’t get comfortable with [messiness], we’ll try to force the world, history, and ultimately God into some kind of box that doesn’t trigger our OCD so badly and pretend it’s clear cut.” (C, 148:31)
  • Efforts to systematize the Bible (e.g., dispensationalism, penal substitution) inevitably do violence to its reality.

Highlighted Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the locus of promise:
  “The promises made to Abraham and how they are fulfilled is the theme of the whole Bible. That’s what the whole Bible is about.” (C, 08:40)

• On Passover and identity:
  “Anyone who puts the blood on the doorpost is now an Israelite… doesn’t matter the color of their skin, doesn’t matter how much of their body is shaved in the case of the Egyptians, right? Doesn’t matter. You’re now an Israelite.” (C, 99:37)

• On collective vs. individual:
  “We modern people…come at this individualistically. The problem is the collective wasn’t [faithful]. The prophets…never take that individualist approach.” (C, 121:12 & 121:27)

• On the failure to realize the ideal:
  “So the picture of Israel that we’re given… is not something that ever really came to exist in the real world. It was an idea, it was a goal…never actually arrived there.” (C, 130:01 & 130:18)

• On the messiness of scripture and tradition:
  “It’s all way more like poetry than prosecution…like art than math or science. And we don’t have a choice but to get more comfortable with that.” (C, 147:28)

Notable Timestamps

• Theme intro and focus for the series: 08:37–09:02
• Three-part promise to Abraham: 10:27–13:41
• Discussion of Abrahamite nations and Gentiles: 20:07–37:34
• Deuteronomy 2 on the Edomites, Moabites, Ammonites: 28:04–32:29
• Job as an Edomite worshipping Yahweh: 38:26–39:13
• Passover as the boundary marker: 97:28–101:22
• Torah at Sinai and uniqueness of Israel’s vocation: 115:04–120:50
• Ancient Israel as a never-fully-realized ideal: 124:54–130:18
• Blessings, curses, Torah and land as ‘sign’: 133:13–134:00
• Messiness and the dangers of systematization: 146:00–151:19

Caller Q&A and Spicy Rants

• Modern State of Israel vs. Biblical Israel: (54:09–66:13)

  • No meaningful theological continuity between the two.
  • Dispensationalist support for Israel is based on eschatological schemes, not love for Jews (spicy critique at 63:19–64:45).

• On Orthodox, Catholics, and non-Orthodox Christians: (66:48–82:51)

  • The Church is a hospital, not a courtroom; focus on action and love over doctrinal taxonomy.
  • A person’s “category” is less important than their striving toward Christ.

Conclusion & Preview

• Summary: The true narrative of Israel is about promise, vocation, and participation in God’s unfolding plan, not race, land, or legalism—"This story is our story." (B, 142:57)
• Next Time: The narrative will move deeper into Israel’s history, its failures, the emergence of messianic hope and resurrection, and how these themes culminate in the New Testament and the Church.

Tone & Style

• The hosts blend scholarly depth with humor, inside jokes, and occasional spicy rants (especially about dispensationalism and over-systematized theology).
• Their approach is conversational, playful, but always aiming to re-enchant the listener’s understanding of scripture.