Transcript

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (0:00)

He will be a staff for the righteous with which for them to stand and not to fall. And he will be the light of the nations and the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All who dwell on the earth will fall down and worship him. And they will praise and bless and celebrate with song the lord of spirits. First Enoch, chapter 48, verses 4 through 5. The modern world doesn't acknowledge, but is nevertheless haunted by spirits and angels, demons and saints. In our time, many yearn to break free of the prison of a flat secular materialism, to see and to know reality as it truly is. What is this spiritual reality like? How do we engage with it? Well, how do we permeate everyday life with spiritual presence? Orthodox Christian priests, Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen DeYoung host this live call in show focused on enchantment in creation, faith, the union of the seen and unseen as made by God and experienced by mankind throughout history. Welcome to the Lord of Spirits.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (1:06)

Good evening, giant killers, dragon slayers, defeaters of the drow of the underdark. You're listening to the Lord of Spirits podcast. My co host, Father Steven DeYoung, the bane of Bob Goblins, is with me, straight from the swamp in Lafayette, Louisiana, and I'm Father Andrew Stephen Damon.

Father Stephen DeYoung (1:21)

I read that as Bane of the Bogomeals. Oh, which would have been far more interesting.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (1:25)

Are you. Have you ever taken.

Father Stephen DeYoung (1:27)

I don't know, you'd have to ask them. Oh, Bogomils.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (1:31)

Call in, let us know.

Father Stephen DeYoung (1:32)

How do you feel about Father's Day? If you even listen?

Caller or Guest (1:37)

Yeah.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (1:38)

Are there any of those around? There must be. I mean, this is the Internet age. There's people claim to be all kinds of things. I want us to have an Eckankar listener. That's what I really want. But I am in Emmaus, Pennsylvania, perched precariously atop the arcane tower of podcasting. Hovering, hovering dozens of stories above a disused gateway to the underworld. And we are live. And if you are listening to us live, you can call us at 855-237-2346. You can talk to us. And we're going to get your calls in the second half of the show. And Matuska Trudy the Tank Richter will be taking your calls. And tonight I scarcely have any idea what monological dronings on Father Stephen has in store, but I think it's something to do with time. And so we're going full Hegelian this time around. Right. The big question, though is what is it all leading up to?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Lord of Spirits — "Is Progress Even a Thing?"

Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Date: January 10, 2025
Approximate Runtime Covered: 00:00–2:08:17
Theme: Exploring "progress," time, teleology, and change in Orthodox Christianity; questioning whether history is moving toward a goal, and examining what change actually means in the Christian tradition.

Episode Overview

This episode explores the idea of "progress" from the perspective of Orthodox Christian theology and tradition. The hosts question whether history, individual lives, or the cosmos itself are actually moving toward a goal or higher state, and whether this is compatible with the traditional Christian worldview. They examine secular and religious versions of progress and critique the tendency to retrofit modern ideas of advancement and change onto the biblical narrative. The conversation aims to clarify the Orthodox understanding of time, teleology (purpose), transformation, and the limits of language in discussing God and doctrine.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Progress? (07:14–14:18)

Defining Progress:
- Progress requires a direction and a goal, not just any change.
- "In order to call something progress, you have to have some idea that there is a direction and a goal... that you can judge whether something is progress related to it." (Fr. Stephen, 07:16)
Progress vs. Change:
- Not all change is progress; progress is "change in a particular direction." (07:39)
Continuity vs. Change:
- Past episodes emphasized the continuity underlying historical change—tonight’s focus is on change as such.

2. Teleology, Linear & Cyclical Time (13:09–18:08)

Teleology & Christian Thought:
- Teleology (Greek "telos": purpose, end) means the cosmos has a goal or purpose.
Misconceptions About "Linear" Christian Time:
- It's often taught that Christianity introduced a "linear" view of time (history with a beginning and end) in contrast to cyclical pagan conceptions.
- Hosts argue this simplistic division is inaccurate—having an "end" does not necessarily imply a trajectory of progress or improvement.

3. The Problems With "Progress" as a Christian Idea (20:13–28:27)

Fullness of Time (e.g., the Incarnation):
- Retrospective explanations (Roman roads, Greek language, etc.) for the timing of the Incarnation are questioned.
- "We're trying to read God's mind about why was that, when the time was right, you know." (Fr. Stephen, 23:15)
Teleology Doesn’t Equal Progress:
- Just because there’s an expected "end" does not mean we are getting closer by our own efforts.
- Christian eschatology sees Christ’s return as an “interruption,” not an achievement (40:20–41:27).

4. Christian History vs. the Myth of Upward Trajectory (28:01–39:58)

Critiquing Hegelian/Modern "Progress" Models:
- The notion that Christianity introduced "progress" into historical thought is rejected.
- "I'm going to argue that actual Christianity, traditional Christianity, historic Christianity does not actually give you that view of history." (Fr. Stephen, 29:21)
Secular vs. Religious Utopianism:
- Both secular liberal and certain religious viewpoints often envision history as a gradual fulfillment or utopia realized in this world—a misunderstanding of how the Christian tradition views the “world to come.”

5. Interruptive Eschatology: Christ’s Return (40:17–42:15)

Second Coming:
- The Second Coming is described as an unexpected, sudden interruption, not a linear culmination (cf. thief in the night, days of Noah).
- "It's not something that humanity achieves. It's something that God visits upon us." (Fr. Andrew, 41:21)

6. Presentism & Modern "Reactions" Against Progress (47:42–52:18)

Presentism Explained:
- The notion that the way things are now is the way they always have been, which is another kind of error.
Young Earth Creationism as Modernism:
- "Young earth creationism is a form of modernism... the Torah... is speaking to us in late 20th century scientific terms." (Fr. Stephen, 50:14)

7. The Problem of Retrojecting Modern Morality onto Scripture (53:39–59:09)

Expecting Ancient Scriptures to Share Modern Values:
- The frequent critique that the Bible should have abolished slavery, promoted modern sexual ethics, or equal rights is historically naive.
God’s Condescension in Revelation:
- God reveals Himself “in terms that the people he’s speaking to will understand” (63:01).

8. The Human Element of Scriptural Revelation (59:09–67:01)

Scripture is Fully Human and Divine:
- "It's written by humans who are guided and inspired by the Holy Spirit..." (Fr. Stephen, 61:56)

9. Transformation, Change, and the Church (78:07–89:17)

Christian Abolitionism as Example:
- Only Christian societies abolished slavery; not a result of direct command but of transformation through Christian living.
Commandments Address How to Relate, Not Build Structures:
- "The commandments are aimed at how humans are to act within and relate to those structures." (83:30)
Transformation Precedes Structural Change:
- Changes in societal structures (e.g. abolition of slavery, equality of women) come from transformed people, not from front-loaded blueprints.

10. The Re-contextualization of Teaching (70:07–72:40; 85:39–88:40)

Preaching & Contextualization:
- The process of taking timeless truth and finding its application in present circumstances is ongoing—"Christian ministry and teaching in every age has always involved recontextualization." (70:07)
Societies are Changed by Transformation, Not Social Engineering

11. Defining & Clarifying Development of Doctrine (95:32–110:35)

No "Progress" in Divine Revelation:
- Expansion of theological vocabulary (e.g., Trinity, Christology) is to address new problems, not a deeper or better knowledge than the apostles or previous saints.
- "Most positive descriptions... end up being circular.... But that same statement, if we understand it in a negative sense... now it’s a true statement... in a sense of distinguishing or differentiating God’s love from other things that are called love." (106:33–107:33)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

"Never go full Hegel." (Fr. Stephen, 02:27)
"Is that what life in the world is like? That's what we're talking about tonight. Which of those models—is it more of a Breaking Bad, or more of a TJ Hooker?" (Fr. Stephen, 05:38)
"If you think that all of history is going to some final form... you could be doing things now to help bring that about... But if Christ’s return is an interruption, then you don’t have a sense of, well, we’re progressing toward it..." (Fr. Stephen, 46:21)
"Presentism... the idea that basically the world has always been the way it is now." (Fr. Stephen, 49:29)
"God reveals himself... in terms they understand as a Bronze Age person, as an Iron Age person, as a Roman, as a medieval peasant..." (Fr. Stephen, 67:04)
"The commandments, when we live by them... That way of life is participatory. We're participating in what God is doing in the world. And that is transformational to us." (Fr. Stephen, 85:54)
"If a Christian is living the way St. Paul directed them... The transformation produced by that is going to cause them, eventually and collectively, to abolish slavery." (Fr. Stephen, 88:38)
"Ideas are fundamentally tools. You create ideas to solve problems just like you create tools to solve problems." (Fr. Stephen, 68:12)
"There is not a change that is happening there. There is a distinction that is being made... that is an idea. That idea is a tool." (Fr. Stephen, 109:48)

Timestamps for Important Segments

Opening/Setting up the Theme: 00:00–07:14
Defining progress and teleology: 07:14–18:08
The fullness of time, interrogating notions of progress in salvation history: 20:13–23:15
Is Christ’s return an “end” or an “interruption”?: 40:20–42:15
Presentism and Young Earth Creationism as Modernist Error: 47:42–52:18
Critiquing retrojective morality and God’s condescension: 53:39–63:01
Transformation and abolition of slavery: 78:07–89:17
How doctrine develops: vocabulary, not essence: 95:32–110:35
Summary and final takeaways: 112:16–127:03

Final Takeaways & Reflections

Transformation, Not Progress:
- Orthodox Christianity teaches that what matters is transformation into the likeness of Christ, not collective upward progress or utopian achievement.
Eschatological Expectation:
- The Christian expectation is not that humans achieve the kingdom, but that God interrupts history with its fulfillment.
Social Engineering vs Living the Commandments:
- “At the macro level and micro level... Christianity... has been far too devoted to social engineering.” (Fr. Stephen, 119:34)
Trust in God’s Action:
- Vigilance in prayer and transformation of self and community is the Orthodox response, more than activism or coercion: “My charge for everyone... is going with God. Don’t be an atheist... Be with God, go in with God and believe that God is actually going to do much more of what’s needed than probably I think I can accomplish.” (Fr. Andrew, 118:16)

This episode offers a nuanced Orthodox critique of both secular and religious narratives about progress and clarifies how authentic transformation, rather than progress or stasis, is the heart of Christian life and eschatology. The discussion explores how theological vocabulary, social transformation, and God's revelation operate in history—not as incremental advancements, but as deep changes produced by divine-human synergy and the work of the Holy Spirit.