The Lord of Spirits Podcast: Episode Summary

Episode Overview

Episode Title: Is the Heavenly Man the Man From Heaven?
Podcast: The Lord of Spirits
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Date: December 23, 2021
Theme: Exploring how God appears in human and physical form throughout the Old Testament, culminating in Christ, and what this reveals about Orthodox Christian understanding of the union of seen and unseen worlds. This episode concludes a four-part series on Old Testament Christology.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction & Series Recap [01:06–07:48]

• This is the final episode in a four-part series exploring Christ in the Old Testament.
• Previous episodes covered:
  • The Angel of the Lord
  • The Word of the Lord
  • The Son of Man
• Tonight, focus is on Old Testament appearances of God in (especially human) bodily form outside those categories.
• Quote:
  "When the prophets ascend in heavenly visions, they see the divine council, the throne of God, the cherubim, the seraphim, the angels, and a man... sometimes outside of prophetic visions, that man shows up on earth and he talks and even eats with people. Who is this man?" (Fr. Andrew, 01:17)
• The “Dominical Man” or Kiriakos Anthropos (“Lordly Man”), a phrase attempted by St. Mark the Ascetic for these appearances, but theological confusion kept it from catching on.

2. Daniel Chapter 10 and the “Pleasing Man” [09:39–42:55]

• Full reading and walkthrough of Daniel 10.
• Daniel is described as a "man of desires" (Gk. epithemia)—a phrase which really means “favored” or “pleasing” man, not "full of passions".
• Daniel practices ascetic fasting before receiving his vision: "I ate no pleasing food, no meat or wine entered my mouth..." [09:39].
• Vision Description: Daniel sees a man clothed in linen, golden belt, body like beryl, face like lightning, eyes like torches, arms and legs like burnished bronze—a deeply supernatural appearance.
• Notable parallel: This figure’s image echoes the “Son of Man” vision in Revelation 1:12–15 (St. John uses similar Aramaic, not just Greek, linking the two visions).

Notable Quotes:

• “If you see ‘of’ in an English translation, that's a punt... there’s some further interpretation that needs to take place.” (Fr. Stephen, 19:07)

• “He appears both in this kind of heavenly fashion... and also just as someone who looks like a human. Which is what we saw in Daniel seven last time.”
  (Fr. Stephen, 33:02)

Who is the Man in Daniel 10? [28:05–34:49]

• Is he Michael or Gabriel? No, as he refers to Michael in third person and commands Gabriel elsewhere.
• He is the Second Person of the Trinity—Christ—appearing in human form.
• Daniel’s vision links to John’s in Revelation, both seeing Christ in glory.
• The “heavenly man” battles cosmic powers: “The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me 21 days, but Michael... came to help me...” [12:10].
  • Spiritual warfare is playing out in the unseen, with the “man” waging war on the principalities that keep Israel in exile.

3. Christ’s “Warfare” & The Exodus Motif [34:49–42:55]

• Daniel’s context: Israel is in the Babylonian exile—a reversal of the original Exodus.
• Just as the "angel of the Lord" led and fought for Israel in Exodus, the "heavenly man" is fighting spiritual powers to inaugurate a new, ultimate Exodus.
• The battle between the heavenly man and the "prince of Persia" prefigures Christ’s defeat of all demonic and corrupt powers: "He is taking on directly these principalities that are over these pagan nations..." (Fr. Andrew, 42:10)

4. Face-to-Face: Seeing God in the Prophets [46:12–57:40]

• Despite “No one has seen God…” (Ex. 33:20), the OT contains numerous face-to-face encounters with God.
• Jeremiah 1: The Word of the Lord alternates with Yahweh. In verse 9, “the Lord put out his hand and touched my mouth”—God present in a physical form.
• Ezekiel 1: Vision of God’s mobile throne chariot with four living creatures (with four faces: man, lion, ox, eagle), over wheels, under an expanse, with God enthroned above.
  • This is the "Cherubim Zodiac" (linking to constellation imagery in Babylonian culture) [59:53–63:01].
• St. Irenaeus connects the four faces to the four Evangelists, but not rigidly—the real point is totality (the whole world/cosmos).

Notable Quotes:

• “You see these four creatures... the man, a lion, an ox, an eagle. So these cherubim, these angelic spirits, are also constellations.” (Fr. Stephen, 62:20)
• “If you see ‘of’ in an English translation… further interpretation is needed.” (Fr. Stephen, 19:07)

5. The Sapphire Throne: God Eating with His People [74:17–98:58]

Exodus 24: Covenant Ratification Ceremony

• Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and 70 elders of Israel go up Mount Sinai, "and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone..." [80:41].
• God is seen as having feet and is present at a table; the elders “beheld God and ate and drank” [Ex. 24:11].
• The meaning of the Blood of the Covenant and the sacred meal: Old Testament roots of the Eucharist.
• Connection to Genesis 15: The “cutting” of the covenant, where God, not Abraham, passes between the bisected animals, symbolically vowing to accept the curse if the covenant is broken (which, ultimately, Christ does).
• Zwingli Sidebar: Even the Reformers recognized the ancient meaning of “sacrament” as an oath (sacramentum), though Orthodoxy insists it is not merely that.

Notable Quotes:

• “At the mystical supper, the Last Supper... Christ is instituting the Eucharist. This is the moment He takes us back to when He says ‘This is my blood of the new covenant.’” (Fr. Stephen, 92:05)

Lightning Round: Other OT “Theophanies” in Human Form

Timestamps omitted, but passages included for reference:

• Genesis 26:24 – The LORD appeared to Isaac.
• Genesis 28:13 – The LORD stands above Jacob’s ladder.
• Genesis 32:30 – Jacob “sees God face to face” and calls the place Peniel.
• Exodus 33:11 – The LORD speaks to Moses “face to face.”
• Reiterated: “When you see God visibly in the Old Testament, it’s Christ you’re seeing.” (Fr. Andrew, 103:15)

6. The Man from Heaven: Abraham’s Visitors at Mamre [108:38–134:00]

Genesis 18: The Oak of Mamre

• Three visitors appear: “The LORD appeared to Abraham… He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him...” [109:20].
• Abraham offers meals and hospitality, and “they” eat.
• The main figure speaks as Yahweh. Christ is physically present, eats food, is washed—makes clear Old Testament theophanies are not “virtual” or illusory.

Mind-bending Theological Point:

• The eating of real food by God means the person appearing is in real human form ("the man from heaven"). This is not a “pre-incarnation” body, then a later “real” body via Mary in the New Testament. For God, outside time and space, the incarnation is an eternal reality manifest in time—no before or after. (“Time and space don’t exist for God.” [117:27–122:08])
• “Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world... that means He is incarnate, both in eternity and in time, because for Christ as God, there is not before and after.” (Fr. Stephen, 121:19)
• This underpins the “firstborn of all creation” title.

Abraham’s Vision—John 8:56

• Christ references this in John’s Gospel (John 8:56): “Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
• Christ’s coming in flesh (as the “man from heaven”) inverts the old pattern: He comes not to judge (as at Babel or Sodom) but to save (John 3:16–17).

Sodom and Gomorrah: Yahweh speaking to Yahweh, Fire from Yahweh

• In Genesis 18–19, Yahweh converses with “another” Yahweh, echoing a Trinitarian mystery; “Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of heaven” [133:12].

7. Final Reflections and Practical Takeaways [134:00–150:22]

Can God Be Seen?

• The apparent contradiction (“no one can see God and live”) is resolved in Christ: when God is seen, it is Christ whom people are seeing.
• Orthodox teaching does not regard God as a natural phenomenon or set of philosophical propositions; the key question is not “What is God?” but “Who is God?”
• God reveals Himself to save us, not to display power or to be categorized.

The Soteriological Motive

• “The vision of Christ in glory transforms the human person to become like Him.” (Fr. Andrew, ~141:13)
• All God’s appearances and actions in Scripture are for the salvation of humanity—this is the “soteriological motive.”

The Practical Connection [143:59–150:22]

• Listener (Batwoman/Batgirl) asks: how do these heady, cosmic themes connect to ordinary Christian life?
• Fr. Stephen answers: Christianity is not remote, abstract theorizing. Christ’s incarnation means our salvation is found embracing real humanity—in church, in sacrament, and in loving community—not as solitary, intellectual spectators.
• “What we talk about on this show is like we're standing on a hill and describing the landscape to you... but if you just stay at a distance and stand there, you're not going to experience any of the good things we're describing. You have to go down the hill, you have to go into the town.” (Fr. Stephen, 149:36)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “When you see an English translation with ‘of’, that’s a punt. There’s some interpretation left to do.” — Fr. Stephen, 19:07
• “He made himself pleasing to God by cutting off those things that would please him.” — Fr. Stephen, 21:48
• “When you see God in the Old Testament, you’re seeing Christ.” — Fr. Andrew, 103:15
• “Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. There’s not, for Christ as God, a before and after.” — Fr. Stephen, 121:19
• “The vision of Christ in glory transforms the human person to become like Him. That’s what it does.” — Fr. Andrew, 141:13
• “The heavenly man became the man from heaven, was born as a tiny baby and lived a life of suffering, because he did not remain up above us, but came down with us, became one of us, and suffered alongside us.” — Fr. Stephen, 147:01

Important Segments & Timestamps

• Daniel 10 reading and discussion: [09:39–42:55]
• Ezekiel 1 / Cherubim Zodiac: [57:40–63:01]
• Old Testament “seeing God” summaries: [99:01–103:15]
• Genesis 18–19 (Oak of Mamre, Man from Heaven): [108:38–134:00]
• Final Thoughts/Practical Application (Batwoman question): [143:22–150:22]

Tone and Style

Conversational, learned, sometimes playful (prog rock “Cherubim Zodiac” jokes), but always reverent and earnest in theological exploration. The hosts weave humor (references to pop culture, music, and ancient history) with deep scriptural and patristic analysis, ensuring accessibility alongside rigor.

Conclusion

This episode richly uncovers how, throughout the Old Testament, God appears in human form (the “Heavenly Man”), prefiguring the incarnation (“the Man from Heaven”), and how all these manifestations are ultimately for humanity’s salvation. The episode teaches that in every divine appearance, it is Christ who is seen, always with the purpose not simply of revelation but transformation—leading us to union with God through Christ both in vision and, especially, in the embodied life of the Church.

Next Episode: All Q&A; bring your deepest, wildest questions—January 13, 2022.

Merry Christmas and blessings for the New Year from the Lord of Spirits!