Podcast Summary: The Lord of Spirits — "Millennium: Bug or Feature?"

Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Date: June 23, 2023
Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition, the concept of the “Millennium” in Christian eschatology, and how time, ages, and the “Messianic Age” are understood in Orthodox thought.

Episode Overview

This episode continues the show's eschatology series, focusing on the biblical and theological meaning of "the millennium"—especially in light of Revelation 20. The discussion dissects historical, scriptural, and theological understandings of time and ages, examines the roots and errors of chiliasm (belief in a future material thousand-year reign of Christ), reviews the claims around St. Irenaeus being a chiliast, and explores what “living in the Messianic age” means for Christians now.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Eschatological Table

• Millennial Anxieties: Jokes about Y2K, the Mayan calendar, and pop-culture end-of-the-world fears. The “millennium” endures in Christian thought because it’s biblical (e.g., Revelation 20).
• Why is the Millennium a Theological Issue?
  • Explores terms like “world without end” and “ages of ages.”
  • Raises controversial questions, e.g., Kiliasm (chiliasm), the figure of St. Irenaeus and whether he was a chiliast.

2. Biblical Language of Time and Ages

(06:06–44:00)

• Hebrew ‘Day’ (Yom): Not always a literal 24-hour period. Used analogically for periods/ages.
  • “Day of the Lord” as a transitional moment: a movement from one age to another.
  • Terms like “in that day,” or “the days of Noah” refer to epochs, often loaded with theological meaning.
• Greek ‘Aeon’ (Age/Eon): More than just sequence, includes a “world order/state of things” that prevails for a period.
  • “Seculum” (Latin): Applies Augustine’s Platonic schema—earthly ages come and go, but God’s “age” is eternal.

“Ultimately what the millennium is, is an age.”
—Fr. Stephen De Young (06:38)

• Notable Quote:
  “The word ‘aeon’ conveys more than just a period. It has the resonance of a particular order, a particular state of things that prevails for a period of time.”
  —Fr. Stephen De Young (19:19)

3. Scriptural Ages: Breaking Down Biblical Periodizations

(31:07–48:00)

• Major Scriptural Ages discussed:
  • Creation (before humans: a different order of reality).
  • Paradise (before the Fall; humans experience time, but differently).
  • After the Fall: The era between expulsion and the flood (characterized by disorder, violence, and Nephilim).
  • Post-flood: A “new order” leads up to Abraham; then the giving of the Torah at Sinai (initiates the Israelite order).
  • Sinai to Exile; Exile to Return (Great Tribulation era of Daniel, the “hinge” to Messianic hope).

“It’s a different age, it’s a different world. Creation is ordered differently…It’s the same creation, but the creation is ordered differently before.”
—Fr. Stephen De Young (36:37)

• Key Point: Ages in the Bible are not all the same length or measured with equal metrics—they represent meaningful, often metaphysical shifts, not units of time.

4. Callers: Symbolism of Moloch and Mammon, the Meaning of “Aeon,” U.S. Empire & Eschatology

(53:30–71:19)

a. Moloch vs. Mammon & Modern Idols (54:03–61:08)

• Demonic “powers” represent both real spiritual beings and the societal patterns (‘gods that our society is inadvertently worshipping’).
• The worship of profit, indulgence, and success is shown to demand the “sacrifice” of family, humanity, and social bonds.

“Our worship of this prosperity and success…is destroying our humanity. And if that’s not demonic, I sort of don’t know what is.”
—Fr. Stephen De Young (60:29)

b. “Aeon” and English “Eon” (62:07–64:45)

• English "eon" comes straight from the Greek "aeon," meaning an age or long period, sometimes even “eternity.”

c. Is America the Linchpin of this Age? (66:10–71:19)

• The U.S. is just today’s manifestation of world empire (“the beast”), not the eschatological axis of the world; the ages are not tied to one nation’s fate.

“The end of the United States is not the end of the world, necessarily.”
—Fr. Stephen De Young (71:08)

5. The Messianic Age in Scripture & Tradition

(71:29–99:14)

• Expectation in Second Temple Judaism: The “Great Tribulation” is not a future reality for Daniel—it's what Daniel’s people are living. The Messianic Age is anticipated as a future definitive transformation.
• New Covenant as Messianic Pivot: Jeremiah 31, Ezekiel 11/36—focus not on abolition of the Torah, but that the law will be internalized, written on hearts by the Spirit.

“The Spirit is going to empower...the Holy Spirit is going to come into you and empower you to keep it. That's how it’s going to be different than last time.”
—Fr. Stephen De Young (81:44)

• Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism: Covenant theology (esp. in Reformed Protestantism) emphasizes epochs defined by covenants; dispensationalism reduces salvation down to different ‘deals’ in different ages—this is contrasted with Orthodox metaphysical/ontological renewal in Christ.

6. Joaquin de Fiore and ‘Trinitarian History’

(102:06–111:40)

• Late 12th c. thinker who periodized history into three ages (of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), with the final age as a utopian era of the Spirit starting in 1260 (it didn’t work out!); although condemned, his ideas subtly undergird a lot of modern Western utopianism/postmillennialism.

7. Defining the Messianic vs. Ultimate Age

(122:02–131:24)

• Penultimate, Not Ultimate: The Messianic age is not the final age; the final, endless “age to come” is after the Messianic era (“Kingdom” now, “final judgment” later).
• Daniel 7, Psalm 110, Hebrews 2: The Messiah rules “in the midst of His enemies”; only afterward are all enemies vanquished.
• Key point: We are living now in that Messianic age—Christ rules in the midst of His enemies.

8. Chiliasm/‘Millennialism’ Debunked & St. Irenaeus Vindicated

(135:08–176:42)

• What is Chiliasm? (136:08)

  • Early Christian expectation of a future, physical thousand-year reign of Christ on earth (“chiliasm” ≈ “millenarianism”). The church eventually rejected this—not on the level of like Arianism (a core heresy), but as a significant theological error.

• Why did some Christians adopt this?

  • Reaction to Gnosticism: overly “spiritualized” eschatologies led to over-emphasizing a materialistic, literalist interpretation.

• St. Irenaeus:

  • It’s widely (and wrongly) claimed he was a chiliast. The hosts go through citations and show he does not teach chiliasm, but simply affirms the bodily resurrection and truly Christian hope of the “world made anew.”

“There’s no evidence that St. Irenaeus was a chiliast unless you think anyone who believes in the bodily resurrection is a chiliast, which is just Christianity.”
—Fr. Stephen De Young (176:12)

9. Revelation 20 and the True Millennium

(176:42–185:57)

• The Actual Text:
  • Satan is bound for 1,000 years; the saints reign with Christ; after the “thousand years,” Satan is loosed for a final conflict/Judgment.
• Orthodox Interpretation:
  • The “thousand years” is a symbolic age—the Messianic age, which began at Christ’s ascension and enthronement; this is “now.”
  • The “first resurrection” is not a future event, but the reality of saints living in Christ, now reigning with him.

“Saying Christ’s kingdom is now…is not saying it’s ephemeral, spiritualized, or allegorical. It’s very literal.”
—Fr. Stephen De Young (192:25)

• The “second resurrection”/final judgment marks the transition to the ultimate endless age.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Early Models of Time:
  “Age…has the resonance of a particular order, a particular state of things that prevails for a period of time.” (19:19, Fr. Stephen)

• On Universal Knowledge of God:
  “There has been a radical transformation... Now you look at today. You can go almost anywhere in the world and say the word God, capital G… There has been a transformation of the very way we view ourselves and each other in society.” —Fr. Stephen De Young (187:53)

• On the U.S. as Centerpiece of Eschatology:
  “The end of the United States is not the end of the world, necessarily.” —Fr. Stephen De Young (71:08)

• On Hope and Christian Living:
  “When we talk about the millennium, when we talk about the Messianic age…it’s fundamentally about having the perspective that we need in order to be faithful, to do his work in the places where we are and to participate in his putting all of his enemies under his feet.” —Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick (199:01)

• On Enjoying the Messianic Age:
  “Feasting with each other, enjoying each other, is as serious as we take fasting. At least as seriously as we take our fasts.” —Fr. Stephen De Young (207:10)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |----------------|--------------------------------------------------| | 00:21-06:06 | Episode opening, overview, millennium pop-culture| | 06:06-44:00 | Biblical language of “age,” “day,” “aeon” | | 44:00-71:19 | Historical breakdown of scriptural ages & calls | | 71:29-99:14 | Messianic Age in Jewish & Christian thought | | 102:06-111:40 | Joaquin de Fiore, utopian/postmillennial ideas | | 122:02-131:24 | Messianic vs. Ultimate Age, Psalm 110, Daniel 7 | | 135:08-176:42 | Chiliasm, St. Irenaeus, debunking misconceptions | | 176:42-185:57 | Revelation 20: actual meaning of “thousand years”| | 192:39-207:55 | Exhortations: hope, joy, and living the Kingdom |

Final Thoughts & Exhortations

• The Messianic age is now—not to be postponed or spiritualized away. Christ reigns; transformation is real and visible in history.
• Our hope is not escapist, but participatory: We join Christ in the ongoing work of putting all enemies under his feet.
• Orthodoxy values both ascetic struggle and joyful communion: Fasting and feasting; monastic withdrawal and Christian fellowship.
• Rejecting chiliasm means living fully the reality of God’s reign today, not relegating all joy and fulfillment to some future paradise.

If you want to delve deeper into Christian eschatology, understand your place in the Kingdom now, and avoid errors of ancient and modern literalism, this episode is a must-listen.