The Lord of Spirits Podcast
"Modernism 101" – October 11, 2024
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Produced by Ancient Faith Ministries
Overview of the Episode
The 101st episode of The Lord of Spirits dives deeply into the concept of Modernism, its historical origins and developments, its influence on religion—particularly Orthodox Christianity—and its consequences for the practice and understanding of the Christian faith. The episode builds on previous discussions about the continuity of Christian tradition, explores how Modernism leads to various responses (including ideological reactionism and postmodernism), and offers practical thoughts on navigating faithfulness in a modern or postmodern context.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Setting the Stage: Continuity & Tradition in Christianity
- (05:08–15:32) The hosts revisit the questions from the prior marathon episode: do Christianity and other religions form a continuity? How do we distinguish between tradition and other traditions that feature Christian elements, like Gnosticism or Neoplatonism?
- Criteria discussed for defining genuine continuity:
- Scriptures: Which are recognized and used?
- Authority structures: Is there recognizable continuity in leadership?
- View of material creation: Positive, negative, neutral?
- Way of life: Ethos and ethics in action.
- Memorable quote:
"Tradition is something which forms and is formed in a community, living together and sharing a common life. Traditionalism is an individual person’s ideology, preferences, or view."
— Fr. Andrew (47:19)
2. Defining Modernism
- (15:32–40:19) The hosts clarify the term "Modernism," decrying its use as a mere insult or buzzword and distinguishing it from simple newness or modernity.
- Core features of Modernism:
- Individualism: The abstraction of the person from all relationships.
- Egalitarianism: The assertion that all differences are accidental or historically contingent.
- Democratization: The belief that all opinions/votes are equally valuable.
- Pursuit of enjoyment: Leisure and entertainment become central goods.
- Developmental/historicist thinking: Narratives of progress, and "the right side of history" rhetoric.
- Notable contextualization:
- Modernist developments include the rise of universal literacy, the printing press, and the conception of human progress, e.g., through Enlightenment and Marxist thinking.
- Memorable quote:
"Modernity and modernism arose out of a...rejection of Christianity, out of an attempt to find a basis for civilization apart from the Christian religion in Western Europe."
— Fr. Stephen (41:40)
- Modernism's infiltration in Christianity reshapes doctrine, worship, and ethics around the individual; injects entertainment and democracy into church life; and results in new, constructed forms (e.g., progressive creeds, artificial liturgy innovations).
3. Modernist Christianity vs. Tradition
- (40:19–59:02) The show distinguishes between Christianity adapting to new realities (eg. using parking lots or microphones) and Christianity being fundamentally reshaped by the spirit of Modernism.
- Engagement with change:
- Change is not inherently disruptive or heretical; it must be discerned whether it is consistent with the living tradition or imported from outside (i.e., a foreign element).
- Illustrative contrast:
- The rise in access to scriptures (due to printing/literacy) is good if kept within the bounds of tradition, but becomes modernist when everyone is a personal authority, equal in interpretation.
4. The Fundamentalist-Modernist Divide
- (59:02–61:57) The hosts trace how the fundamentalist and modernist opposition in early 20th-century American Christianity was, at root, two wings sharing the same modernist assumptions—particularly the authority of science and rational demonstration as supreme.
- Quote:
"Science proves that God didn't create the world...science proves that God did create the world."
— Fr. Stephen (60:23) - Both treat Scripture as data to be processed through modern scientific/rational principles.
5. Entering the Postmodern Turn
- (81:03–101:44; 125:56–148:10)
- What is Postmodernism? Not “just anything after Modernism,” and not "postmodern neo-Marxism" (a label dismissed as incoherent). Postmodernism grows out of post-structuralism—a critique of modernism’s claims to objectivity, universals, and overarching narratives.
- Postmodernist features:
- Language and meaning are inherently unstable.
- Objectivity is an illusion; all is subjective, perspectival.
- Universals are denied; only particulars exist.
- Truth is replaced with “values,” which are just group/individual preferences.
- Manifestations in Christianity:
- Study Bibles for every group/“perspective”.
- Reader-response Bible studies (“What does this mean to me?”).
- Charisma-driven authority and cults of personality (e.g., anyone with a big enough YouTube following).
- Ethics become non-credible, replaced by personal “values.”
- The self is completely “protean” (ever-shifting), summed up as “I identify as X” in place of “I was born that way.”
6. Tradition Versus Reaction
- (148:10–176:04)
- Merely reacting against modernism/postmodernism is itself often a modernist or postmodern move, manifesting as selective traditionalism, authoritarian nostalgia, or aestheticism.
- It's not possible to fully “de-innovate” or roll back to pre-modern conditions (“You can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube”).
- The only real solution is rooting oneself in an actual, living tradition practiced in community—a tradition that can form and correct, not a construction based on individual or ideological preference.
7. Living Out Orthodox Tradition Today
- (176:04–210:29)
- The Orthodox Church offers a bridge between universal and particular, subjective experience and concrete reality.
- It is not immune to infiltration or perversion from modernist, postmodern, or nationalist spirits, and self-critique is necessary.
- The path forward is not reactionary “traditionalism” or creating a national (e.g., American) Orthodoxy, but humbly entering into the transformative life of the tradition so that the Holy Spirit changes us—and thereby, through us, the world around us.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On how change becomes a break (08:51):
"If all of a sudden I tore down the iconostasis and put a rock band in the sanctuary around the altar, where you would look at that and say, okay, that's not Orthodox Christianity anymore."
-
On the “individual” as a modern concept (23:01):
"The basic unit of humans is one...the idea of a person as an individual is that you are looking at them separated from all of their relationships..."
-
On egalitarianism (26:03):
"In the Modern point of view...all of these connections are what make me me. Right. No, it's. We got to figure it out. Abstracted from everything else."
-
On the appeal of tradition and traditionalism (47:19):
"Tradition is the living faith of the dead, while traditionalism is the dead faith of the living." — (citing Yaroslav Pelikan)
-
On the failure of fundamentalist and modernist approaches (60:13):
"The modernist says, Science proves that God didn't create the world; whereas the fundamentalist says, Science proves that God created the world."
"Those are equally modernist." -
Memorable analogy (164:24):
"The way you actually should pick the girl you're going to marry...includes both...factual considerations on the one hand and...how you feel when you’re with her and your love for her...That thing that surpasses it is an encounter with Christ. And what does that mean? I can't define exactly what that means to encounter Christ any more than I can define what it was that made me know I should marry my wife Trisha."
Timestamps for Important Segments
- Defining Modernism and Its Features: 15:32–40:19
- Modernist Christianity and Its Dangers: 40:19–59:02
- Fundamentalists vs. Modernists – Both Modernist: 59:02–61:57
- Postmodernism, Post-Structuralism, and Christianity: 81:03–101:44
- What Postmodern Christianity Looks Like: 125:56–148:10
- Tradition vs. Traditionalism/Reaction: 148:10–176:04
- The Path Forward (Detailed Practical Conclusion): 176:04–210:29
Call-In Highlights
Q: Do angels and demons have souls? (67:01) – Hannah from Nashville
A: No; their nature is not the same as human soul-body composite. Spiritual death for a demon or angel is their separation from God, not death in the human sense.
Q: Modern Gnostic teachings about Jesus/Essenes? (72:17) – Gregory from Jacksonville
A: These speculative and sensational claims are mostly a result of people making connections far beyond what scholarship justifies (and, often, publishers egging them on for sensational content).
“Fact-checking is not all bad. Sometimes you need to check the facts.” (80:07 – Fr. Stephen)
Q: How do I choose the right Church? (154:46) – Harrison
A: Choosing a Church in an age of options is itself a modern act. The real answer is not only in historical or emotional satisfaction, but in a living encounter with Christ in the historical Church (see detailed analogy above).
Tone and Original Language
Throughout, the hosts intertwine humor, collegial ribbing, pop culture references, and a conversational (sometimes irreverent) yet deeply thoughtful tone.
Concluding Thoughts
- There is no simple recipe or historical period to which we can escape: every era is fraught, every context dangerous.
- Orthodox Christianity’s path is “stumbling forward, humbly,” allowing both the tradition and Christ Himself to correct, guide, and save us—not through ideological reaction, but through real transformation in community.
"There is no homeostasis where you can just relax...One of those two things will be happening: you'll be being formed by the Holy Spirit, or you'll be being formed by the various spirits active in our world." — Fr. Stephen (205:02)
Next Episode: The annual Halloween episode airs in two weeks.
For further questions or help:
- Email: lordofspirits@ancientfaith.com
- Orthodox Christianity info & finding a parish: orthodoxintro.org
(End of Summary)