The Lord of Spirits

Episode: "Pananthropon & Pandemonium II: Live, In-Person Q&A"

Date: October 28, 2025

Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young

Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition

Episode Overview

This special live episode of Lord of Spirits was recorded at the Lord of Spirits Conference before a lively in-person audience. The hosts, Fr. Andrew Damick and Fr. Stephen De Young, fielded a wide range of audience questions relating to the interplay of the physical and spiritual worlds, enchantment, Orthodox theology, and practical spiritual life. The episode focused on demystifying how the Orthodox Christian tradition understands angels, demons, spirits, and saints as active participants in the world, exploring how these realities influence everyday life and human destiny. Woven through the humor, tangents, and banter, the episode delivers rich theological insights and practical approaches to engaging the "seen and unseen" realities of Christian Orthodoxy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ventriloquists, Necromancers, and Wizards in Scripture (05:23)

• Fr. Andrew shares how biblical language for "wizards" (Hebrew: yida'oni) actually refers to necromancers or those who consult the dead, and how this word relates to spiritists, ventriloquists (Greek: gastromythos), and the Delphic Oracle’s “pythoness.”
• The use of “wizard” in King James is a misleading translation; the intent is spiritist or necromancer, not a fantasy magic-user.

“So now you know, if someone says, you know, what do ventriloquists have to do with necromancers, the answer is wizards.” – Fr. Andrew [09:29]

2. AI, Consciousness, and Intelligence (10:30–22:25)

• Fr. Stephen tackles fears around AI and the confusion between consciousness and intelligence. He suggests that “consciousness” is often misunderstood: being “smart” does not equate to being self-aware.
• He explains that computer programs, no matter how sophisticated, are akin to characters in fiction—they can be written as “self-aware” but never truly are.
• AI’s intelligence will never “click over” and become a person or develop self-will like Skynet (Terminator) or HAL (2001).

“Let me submit to you that no matter how good of a writer I am … that character [in a book] would never actually become aware that they were a character in a book.” – Fr. Stephen [20:50]

3. The Harrowing of Hell & Psalm 24/23’s Messianic Prophecy (23:49–34:19)

Q&A: Did those reading Psalm 24 in King David's time recognize its prophetic connection with Christ's descent into Hades?

• Fr. Andrew unpacks how Orthodox tradition preserves mystical connections (like the use of Psalm 24/23’s “Lift up your heads, O gates…”) even when the explicit cultural context is lost.
• The seamless link between Christ’s descent into Hades and his Ascension (per St. Paul and liturgical usage), and how the tradition carried these understandings until scholarship “re-discovered” the ancient Near Eastern mythic context.
• Orthodox Tradition as continuity: The Church “preserves the connections” even when the reason has faded from view.

“On a very deep level, when we hear that [the Gospel], we know it’s true … you’re being invited into the cosmic story.” – Fr. Andrew [30:33]

“What David wrote was that at some future point, Yahweh, the God of Israel, was going to in person invade Sheol and the palace of its ruler and free the people held captive there.” – Fr. Stephen [33:59]

4. Plato Brain & Christian Theology (34:31–40:28)

Q&A: What is 'Plato brain,' and how did Plato affect Christian thought?

• Fr. Stephen defines “Plato brain” as the unconscious adoption of Platonic categories:
  • Difference implies opposition (if something is good, other things must be bad)
  • Obsession with changelessness and inert perfection as divine attributes
• These Platonic concepts deeply shaped Western ethics and theology, sometimes distorting Christian teachings about virtue, morality, and God’s activity in the world.

“So Plato brain is the fact that there are certain Platonic categories that our culture has kind of fed us. So we all have a grid, an interpretive grid … Some of the categories we've got, that we use, that we filter things through are these Platonic categories.” – Fr. Stephen [35:51]

5. Eternity and 'Eternal Conscious Torment' (41:38–52:53)

Q&A: If eternity in Orthodoxy isn’t a demonic stasis or endless time, what is it? What does this mean for the “traditional” view of hell?

• Fr. Andrew explains different “timescapes”: Linear Time (human), Timelessness (God), and Aeonic (angelic) time.
• “Eternal conscious torment” is not well-grounded biblically or in early Christian thought—it projects our present experience onto the afterlife, which misses the apophatic mystery of what is to come.
• Fr. Stephen adds: Time and space are categories of our created experience, not of God. References to “eternity” and “eternal” are symbolic or pedagogical for our understanding.
• The true Orthodox stance is humility about afterlife specifics, per St. John of Damascus and other Fathers.

“Our guide to what our life will be like in the resurrection is Christ after his resurrection … And you could very clearly see in those narratives that categories of time and space don’t really apply to him.” – Fr. Stephen [50:21]

6. Necessity, Atonement, and Christ’s Freedom (56:30–67:54)

Q&A: If Orthodoxy rejects penal substitutionary atonement (PSA), how do we reconcile 'Jesus had to die' with Orthodox freedom from necessity?

• Fr. Andrew: Orthodox tradition frames Christ’s death not as necessary in a mechanistic, cosmic legal sense, but as the fitting, voluntary act of God. Entering Hades equals dying; Christ chooses this freely for humanity’s salvation.
• Fr. Stephen traces historical roots: Western Christianity, influenced by Platonic categories via Anselm and others, became obsessed with “necessity.” The East instead emphasized Christ’s actions as “fitting” (prepon)—appropriate and beautiful, not required.
• Christ is not subject to cosmic necessity; his actions are voluntary and loving, not compelled by cosmic “rules.”

“What comes out of that [Western] debate … is the idea of consequent necessity ... In the east … they used the language of it being fitting or another way of saying fitting would be, 'It is meet and right … this is particularly appropriate.'” – Fr. Stephen [62:23]

7. Is Life a Game?—The Harrowing of Hell as Trickery (75:06–85:42)

Q&A: Is life a game, given how Orthodox tradition describes the Incarnation as tricking the devil?

• The hosts discuss how trickery is a recurring biblical motif—God’s defeat of evil is sometimes described (in hymns and apocryphal texts) as a “ruse” or trick, such as the fishhook imagery of Hades swallowing Christ.
• In ancient context, trickery itself is not evil—motivation is key (deceit for good is praised, cf. Jacob, Tamar, David).
• Modern discomfort with this imagery is due to inheritance of Kantian and Hobbesian ethical views.

8. Pouring Libations for the Dead (86:43–90:26)

Q&A: Is pouring a drink on a grave akin to pagan libations or ancestor worship?

• Context and intention matter: Most people who pour for the dead don’t intend ritual feeding of spirits as in paganism—it's a vestigial custom, not explicit idolatry, but not recommended.
• Orthodox tradition distinguishes commemorative meals or offerings for the departed from actual feeding-of-spirits practices.

9. Relics and the Integrity of the Human Body (90:30–98:52)

Q&A: Isn’t distributing relics (bones of saints) a violence akin to cremation, which is forbidden?

• Fr. Andrew: There is a categorical difference between cremation (destruction/disposal without reverence) and preparation/distribution of relics (done reverently, prayerfully for veneration and healing).
• The division of relics arose naturally (e.g., when saints decayed or their remains were disinterred); context, reverence, and purpose are essential. Dispersion of relics responds to the power of Christ working through saints’ bodies.

10. The Filioque and the Western Doctrine of the Trinity (99:36–114:09)

Q&A: What was the real impact of the Filioque?

• Fr. Stephen exhaustively explains how the addition of "Filioque" (“and the Son”) to the Creed in the West disrupted the monarchy (single principle) of the Father in classic Trinitarian theology.
  • Original: The Father is the single source, who begets the Son and from whom the Spirit proceeds (cf. John’s Gospel).
  • Filioque muddles this, leading to confusion, “monotheist” language, and eventually to theological innovations like “created grace” and quantifiable grace as a substance.
  • The Eastern tradition preserves clarity: the Father alone is the one God (“monarchia”).
• These shifts made it difficult for many Western Christians to coherently articulate the Trinity and the relationship of God to creation.

"The biggest effect it has had in the west is that almost nobody in the west understands the doctrine of the Trinity anymore… The early Church fathers never used the term monotheist to describe themselves… they call themselves monarchists. They believe in the monarchia of the Father." – Fr. Stephen [101:07]

11. Torah Sacrifices and Deliberate Sin (115:12–124:37)

Q&A: Did the Torah sacrificial system ever provide for intentional sins, or was that only possible under Christ?

• Fr. Andrew: “Just read Leviticus!”—multiple means for repentance are given, including for deliberate sins; it’s a modern misconception that only “unintentional” sins were covered.
• Fr. Stephen: The purpose of Torah sacrifices wasn’t the mechanistic “sin management” system later superimposed by some interpreters; repentance and restitution were central. The sacrificial system managed sin in the “landed real estate of Israel” until Christ, who fulfills and universalizes the sacramental order.

12. Demonology, Christianization, and the Spirits of Place (126:13–133:02)

Q&A: Are the demons of places (e.g., rivers) banished at Christ’s victory, or only when the Church evangelizes a region?

• Fr. Andrew: Christ's resurrection has begun the defeat of the demons, but the full subjugation unfolds as the Church continues Christ’s ministry. Exorcism and sanctification are ongoing, participated in by believers.
• Fr. Stephen: Cites St. Paul’s language that “not all things are under his feet yet”—the battle continues as the Church claims the world for Christ, place by place.
• Use of guardian angels, praying over places, annual Theophany water blessings—these are concrete ways the Church asserts Christ’s triumph.

“The enemy has been scattered. But like any army that’s in retreat, it is sacking and burning and raping and pillaging as it goes. … What we’re engaging in is the action to pursue, to hunt down the demonic powers and to destroy them and to cleanse the world and to continue the work that he himself didn’t just begin but now is continuing to do through us.” – Fr. Andrew [131:53]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (w/ Timestamps)

• On Biblical Wizards:
  “Now you know, if someone says, you know, what do ventriloquists have to do with necromancers, the answer is wizards.” – Fr. Andrew [09:29]

• On AI and Fictional Consciousness:
  “No matter how good of a writer I am ... that character would never actually become aware that they were a character in a book.” – Fr. Stephen [20:50]

• On the Harrowing of Hades:
  "What David wrote was that at some future point, Yahweh, the God of Israel, was going to in person invade Sheol and ... free the people held captive there." – Fr. Stephen [33:59]

• On Plato Brain:
  “We all have a grid, an interpretive grid in our minds through which we interpret the experiences we have ... some of the categories that we use ... are these Platonic categories.” – Fr. Stephen [35:51]

• On Eternity:
  “Our guide to what our life will be like in the resurrection is Christ after his resurrection.” – Fr. Stephen [50:21]

• On Atonement:
  “It is ‘meet and right’ ... that this is the way God chose to do it. ... There are certainly, because he is free, other ways he could have chosen ... but this way is particularly appropriate.” – Fr. Stephen [62:23]

• On Life as a Game & Christ's Trickery:
  "I mean, trickery is a big theme in the Bible ... and there's often this sense that trickery is the thing that's necessary to get justice to happen." – Fr. Andrew [78:33]

• On Trinitarian Confusion Post-Filioque:
  “The biggest effect [of the Filioque] is that almost nobody in the west understands the doctrine of the Trinity anymore... The early Church fathers … call themselves … monarchists.” – Fr. Stephen [101:07]

• On Defeating Demons in Creation:
  "What we’re engaging in is the action to pursue, to hunt down the demonic powers and to destroy them and to cleanse the world and to continue the work that he himself didn’t just begin but now is continuing to do through us." – Fr. Andrew [131:53]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 05:23 – Ventriloquists, Necromancers, and "Wizards" in the Bible
• 10:30 – Artificial Intelligence, Consciousness, and Intelligence
• 23:49 – The Harrowing of Hell and Psalm 24's Messianic Connection
• 34:31 – Plato Brain and Christian Theology
• 41:38 – Eternity, Aeonic Time, and "Eternal Conscious Torment"
• 56:30 – Necessity, Atonement, and Christ's Freedom vs. PSA
• 75:06 – Is Life a Game? Christ’s Trick on the Devil
• 86:43 – Ancestor Worship & Libations: Pagan or Not?
• 90:30 – Theological Meaning of Relic Veneration
• 99:36 – The Filioque and the Western Divorce from Classic Trinity
• 115:12 – Torah Sacrifices and Deliberate Sins
• 126:13 – Demons, Angels, and the Christianization of Creation

Episode Tone & Style

The tone is lively, humorous, and candid. Both priests employ deep scholarship, dry wit, pop culture references (Skynet, Deadpool, Kant, etc.), self-deprecating humor, and occasional inside jokes—all of which keep the discussion engaging without sacrificing intellectual or spiritual depth. They model respectful disagreement, humility in the face of mystery, and a determination to make complex theology accessible for non-specialists.

Summary

This episode is a banquet of Orthodox spiritual and theological wisdom, delivered in real time and with real laughs. Listeners new to these topics will leave with a stronger grasp on why Orthodoxy speaks of the world as layered with spiritual meaning, how it resists modern reductionist interpretations, and why faithful living is itself an ongoing exorcism and sanctification of the cosmos. Whether discussing AI, heaven and hell, ancient paganism, or the mystery of the Trinity, Fr. Andrew and Fr. Stephen make the unseen world seen.