The Lord of Spirits Podcast

Episode: Pantheon and Pandemonium XI: Asynchronous Q&A April 2024

Date: April 26, 2024
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Producer: Ancient Faith Ministries

Overview

This pre-recorded “SpeakPipe Palooza” episode is a broad-ranging Q&A session on the Orthodox Christian understanding of the seen and unseen world. Listeners submitted questions on spiritual reality, angelic falls, the knowledge of God, saints, culture, scriptural translation, relics, numerology in scripture, Enoch, theodicy, exorcism, church identity, and more. The episode features plenty of humor and in-depth answers, with Fr. Andrew and Fr. Stephen alternating between levity and theological rigor.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Angelic Falls & The Nature of Angelic Sin

Timestamps: [03:19]-[09:51]

• Three Angelic Falls:
  • Devil's Fall (envy), the Watchers (disobedience), the Babel event (angels of the nations).
• Why Don’t Angels Fall Now?
  • God’s grace prevents it; “Saint John of Damascus says…they’re prevented from falling any more by the grace of God.” – Fr. Andrew [06:03]
• Nature of Spiritual Time:
  • The ‘fall’ enters human history at key moments but angelic beings don’t experience time like humans. [08:16]
• Temptation of Worship:
  • The offer of worship to fallen angels at Babel was arguably a greater temptation than seen in other falls.
• Watcher Movies Reference:
  • Fr. Stephen: “They’ve been watching Prophecy, the Christopher Walken movie. Do not watch the sequels, people.” [05:34]

The Human Mind, Revelation, & the Knowledge of God

Timestamps: [10:01]-[14:56]

• Innate Noetic Faculty:
  • We’re born with a noose (spiritual faculty) capable of perceiving God, but it’s obscured by sin.
• Not Exactly ‘Innate Knowledge’:
  • Fr. Stephen: “You’re born with the ability to perceive the spiritual realm… not with an innate knowledge of God.” [12:22]
• Gentile Law and Conscience:
  • Gentiles act as their own Torah – virtue comes from conscience, not direct revelation.
• Spiritual Experiences:
  • Experiences can be misattributed; people often credit things to luck, self, nation, etc., rather than God.
  • “That’s our basic problem: we don’t see that it’s all from God.” – Fr. Andrew [14:51]

Knowing the Saints—Real Relationships or Limerence?

Timestamps: [15:30]-[28:25]

• Are We Catfished by the Saints?
  • Fr. Stephen quips: “Are the saints catfishing us?” [16:56]
• The Concept of Limerence:
  • Engaging more with our idea of a saint than the person themselves can limit their freedom. Humility is needed.
  • “When you interact with a limerent image, you are trying to limit the freedom of the other person.” – Fr. Andrew [19:33]
• Real Experience vs. Concept:
  • With recent saints, more of their “unfiltered” lives are available, but not every aspect is sanctified.
  • “With more recent saints, we tend to have a lot more unfiltered... not all of which corresponds to their eternal memory, to their resurrected state.” – Fr. Stephen [23:45]
• Approach With Caution:
  • Compare new saints’ teachings to the tradition; don’t fixate on oddities.
  • “Now they’re given for our salvation, but none of them is critical.” – Fr. Andrew [27:43]

Torah Observance and Jewish Converts

Timestamps: [28:49]-[37:31]

• If Whole Jewish Communities Convert?:
  • Would they be expected to stop Torah observance? No scriptural/traditional basis to demand this.
  • “There’s no concept of genetics in the Bible...not what we’re talking about.” – Fr. Stephen [30:53]
• Apostolic Example:
  • St. Paul did not tell Jewish Christians to abandon Torah.
  • “That’s what St. Paul was accused of, but he vehemently denied it.” – Fr. Stephen [34:10]

Language & Theology in the Creed

Timestamps: [38:14]-[44:57]

• Missing ‘Died’ in the Creed?
  • Not an omission: “Suffered and was buried” includes death; some modern translations conflate the Apostles’ Creed into the Nicene Creed.
  • “His death is included in suffered... that is the culmination of the things that He suffered.” – Fr. Stephen [41:55]

Miracles, Relics, & Time

Timestamps: [45:03]-[50:17]

• Elisha’s Bones and Resurrection:
  • Miracles via relics are “the resurrection breaking into this world,” not just residual power.
  • “God worked wonders through them while they were alive and did not cease when they fell asleep.” – Fr. Stephen [49:50]
• Time and Space Don’t Apply:
  • Saints in Hades already experience resurrection’s spiritual reality – “because time and space don’t exist.” – Fr. Stephen [49:26]

Idolatry, Culture, and Pagan Symbols

Timestamps: [53:34]-[66:56]

• Statues of Pagan Gods in Orthodox Homes:
  • Fr. Andrew: “Statues are more problematic than paintings...a statue, even if not used for idolatry, suggests idolatry.” [57:41]
  • Fr. Stephen: “This comes from modern ethno-nationalism, which is a deliberate modern attempt to relocate people’s identity from religion to ethnicity.” [58:30]
• Magic Talismans (Mati/Evil Eye):
  • “You’re looking to something other than Christ. That’s a problem.” – Fr. Stephen [65:51]
• Contextualizing Pagan Names:
  • Many saints have names that were once of pagan gods; the Church redeems these.

Numbers in Scripture

Timestamps: [67:37]-[74:28]

• Are Census Numbers Literal or Symbolic?
  • “The answer is probably yes [there’s meaning], but exactly what, we don’t know.” – Fr. Stephen [69:13]
• Don’t Be Rigid or Dismissive:
  • Numbers are neither arbitrary nor precise headcounts; interpretation is an open question.

Enoch, Apocrypha, and Son of Man

Timestamps: [74:35]-[82:21]

• Enoch as ‘Son of Man’?
  • Context: Could be like Ezekiel or Daniel’s ‘Son of Man’; later rabbinic tradition rejected it as messianic.
• Usefulness of Enoch:
  • Enochic books provide ideas the New Testament writers clarify and fulfill in Christ, not the other way around.
  • “The value of it is not that it got everything about Jesus right before Jesus was born...they’re picking up those ideas and then nuancing them.” – Fr. Stephen [81:16]

Theodicy – Why Doesn’t God Intervene?

Timestamps: [82:23]-[88:52]

• Divine Mercy & Judgment:
  • God is always working for everyone's salvation, but His patience represents mercy.
  • “The first person who needs God’s mercy is me...If I want and need desperately God to be merciful...I have to hope He extends that to everyone else, too.” – Fr. Stephen [88:34]

Psalm 82 Controversy

Timestamps: [89:02]-[101:45]

• Psalm 82 (LXX 81):
  • “Ye are gods” refers to the gods of the nations, not to deified humans.
• Patristic Interpretation:
  • Fathers’ application (e.g., theosis) doesn’t make saints the injustice-practicing gods who fall, but rather those who take their place.
  • “You have to explain how Psalm 81/82 is working on Holy Saturday...our liturgy interprets it is pretty important, too.” – Fr. Stephen [102:22]

Theophany, Divine Presence, and Judgment

Timestamps: [102:56]-[104:51]

• Theophany (sanctification of waters) & Harrowing of Hades:
  • Similarities in that Christ’s presence is transformative, but harrowing of Hades includes Exodus imagery and rescue of the righteous.

Linguistics of ‘Brood of Vipers’

Timestamps: [107:35]-[111:00]

• John the Baptist: ‘Brood of Vipers’ (Echidna):
  • This is deliberate chaos-monster language; not just “snakes” but “offspring of monsters.”
  • “I think he’s deliberately...chaos monster language.” – Fr. Stephen [109:34]

Enoch’s Waters: Masculine and Feminine

Timestamps: [111:11]-[117:42]

• Flood Imagery and Gendered Waters:
  • Masculine and feminine waters (heavenly/earthly) symbolize cosmic completeness, destruction and chaos at the end of days.
  • “When masculine and feminine come together, that’s going to signal the end of the world.” – Fr. Stephen [116:49]

Exorcism in Secular Contexts

Timestamps: [118:08]-[124:46]

• Laypersons and Spiritual Warfare:
  • Christian life is always exorcistic, but authority and context matter.
  • Can always pray, but lasting deliverance requires the Church.
  • “There's a limit to what you can do. For someone to be truly spiritually healthy, they have to be in the Church.” – Fr. Stephen [121:45]

Castor & Pollux in Acts

Timestamps: [125:24]-[131:32]

• Twin Gods on Paul’s Ship:
  • Literary detail: hints at spiritual warfare; the Roman gods (Zeus’s offspring) are “mad” at Paul.
  • “The storm and the shipwreck is Zeus trying to take out St. Paul...but failing.” – Fr. Stephen [129:22]

Election, Free Will, and Conversion Experience

Timestamps: [132:15]-[142:42]

• Sudden Conversion—Is It Orthodox?
  • Some experience instant conversion, others don’t; Orthodoxy makes no requirement.
  • Relationship is both/and—not solely God’s doing nor solely man’s.
  • “God is involved before, during, after...inseparable from us making the choice.” – Fr. Stephen [141:40]

Blacksmiths, Magic, & St. Patrick

Timestamps: [142:51]-[146:42]

• Magic & Technology:
  • Prayer against blacksmiths in St. Patrick’s Breastplate references folklore: ancient belief that blacksmithing is magical/suspect, relating back to Tubal Cain.
• Technology and Sorcery:
  • “These are secrets revealed by demonic powers that can be destructive.” – Fr. Stephen [146:08]

Nationalism, Ethnic Identity, & American Orthodoxy

Timestamps: [146:49]-[162:28]

• Do Converts Need to ‘Become’ Greek, Russian, etc.?
  • No. Not every parish is exclusive. Adaptation is a normal part of joining any church. Some parishes remain ethnic due to immigrant roots.
• Language & Monolingualism:
  • America the exception: “The U.S. is the only place where you can be educated and only speak one language.”
• Avoid Formless ‘American Orthodoxy’:
  • “The fact that we have not tried to bootstrap an American Orthodoxy is a very good thing.” – Fr. Stephen [155:46]
• Don’t Seek Comfort:
  • The Church “demands that every single one of us repent and change and be transformed.”
  • “Church doesn’t conform itself to the people coming to it, it conforms those people to the Church.” – Fr. Stephen [161:20]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On saints as persons vs. concepts:

  “Are the saints catfishing us?” – Fr. Stephen [16:56]

• On surviving pagan art/culture:

  “That pagan stuff is not innocuous. Look what it did in Germany.” – Fr. Stephen [62:17]

• On numbers in the Book of Numbers:

  “The answer is probably yes, but exactly what we don’t know.” – Fr. Stephen [69:13]

• On Theosis and Psalm 82:

  “The saints are not practitioners of wickedness who get judged and slain.” – Fr. Stephen [101:43]

• On adapting to Orthodox parishes:

  "You shouldn’t have to become some other culture in order to be an Orthodox Christian." – Fr. Andrew [148:53]

• On American Orthodoxy:

  “It’s going to take centuries for there to be an American Orthodox Church. It took centuries for there to be a Russian Orthodox Church.” – Fr. Stephen [154:46]

• On immigrant churches & American culture:

  “Those immigrant ties have protected the Orthodox Church from the way that American culture colonizes everything and corrupts it.” – Fr. Stephen [159:55]

Conclusion

This episode is a wide-ranging exploration of Orthodox Christianity’s ancient worldview, spanning from the technical (angels, census numbers, relics) to the everyday (culture, language, parish life, spiritual struggle). The hosts consistently return to the need for humility, the limits of our experience and understanding, and the Church’s role as the true context for encountering the living God and the seen/unseen creation. All while sharing their signature mix of serious theology and playful banter.

For more episodes and resources, visit ancientfaith.com or the Lord of Spirits podcast page.