Pantheon and Pandemonium XV: Live Q&A March 2025

Summary

Lord of Spirits Podcast

Pantheon and Pandemonium XV: Live Q&A, March 2025
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Date: March 14, 2025
Theme: “The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition — Live Listener Q&A”

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Episode Overview

This episode is an all Q&A live call-in show where the hosts, Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen De Young, take a wide variety of questions from listeners about Orthodox Christian spirituality, theology, history, biblical interpretation, and religious life. With the show’s characteristic blend of depth, humor, and candor, they address everything from enduring questions of faith and cultural decline, to debates on the nature of evil, the interpretation of scripture, and even practical questions about liturgical life and identity.

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Key Discussion Points & Segments

1. The Nature of “Progress” and the Fate of Christian Cultures

[06:28 - 21:12]
Caller: Janine (NYC)

• Question: In times of global turmoil and especially the persecution/cleansing of Christians, what does “progress” mean from an Orthodox perspective? What do we do as Christians facing despair about the state of the world and Church?
• Key Insights:
  • God’s purpose is to save as many as possible; He knew the conditions of every era (9:22).
  • There is no mythic “Golden Age” of the Church; the Church has always faced internal and external turmoil (12:13).
  • “There was no Golden Age of the Church. ... Not only were there heresies all over the place ... There were maybe 75 years total where all the patriarchates were in communion with each other.” — Fr. Stephen (12:47)
  • True Christian progress is in personal repentance and holiness, not temporal cultural “success.”
  • The end of times is an interruption, not a culmination of an earthly project (11:42).
  • Christian cultures arise as a result of real sanctity, not as an end in themselves — “If you aim at heaven you will get earth thrown in, but if you aim at earth, you will get neither.” — Fr. Andrew quoting C.S. Lewis (18:17).
  • Cultures will pass; what matters is faithfulness, the “remnant,” enduring to the Day of the Lord.
• Memorable Moment: Pastors gently push back on conflating political/cultural triumphs with true Christian progress.

2. Preterism and Understanding Eschatology

[21:12 - 24:03]
Caller: Lazarus

• Question: Should you do an episode on Preterism (the doctrine that prophecy was all fulfilled in the 1st century)?
• Answers with humor: “Preterism is just kind of dumb.” — Fr. Stephen (21:57)
• Both hosts summarize that Revelation deals with the entire sweep/history of humanity, not just the first century or only the future.
• Fr. Andrew: “Both approaches are wrong ... fundamentally misunderstanding the way Apocalypse even works.” (22:20)

3. Imprecatory Prayer and Anger

[24:26 - 29:05]
Caller: James (New Hampshire)

• Question: What is the Orthodox perspective on imprecatory prayer (“bring more evils upon them, O Lord”)?
• Insights:
  • Church Fathers interpret such prayers as being primarily about spiritual enemies, not humans.
  • “There are correct objects for hatred ... [like] sin.” — Fr. Stephen (26:59)
  • The “incensive power” (burning power of anger) should be directed at our sins, not at other people.
  • Sin should disgust you — aim to direct righteous anger at sin and demonic influence (28:13).
  • Side tangent: Joshua vs. Judah the Hammer: Joshua is the clear winner since he was a “down and dirty” fighter, facing demon-powered giants.

4. The Critique of Paganism — Isaiah 44 and Idolatry

[31:03 - 39:15]
Caller: Daniel (Santa Monica, CA)

• Question: Is Isaiah 44’s polemic strictly materialist (“you made this idol yourself”) or is there more?
• Key Insight: The critique is about the contrast between helpless idols (which need humans to move/dress/care for them) and the true God who created and sustains everything.
  • Demons, the “gods of the nations,” are real powers but only gain effect through human cooperation. They can influence (thoughts/actions), but “can’t make it rain,” etc. (39:09)
  • “Their evil comes in the world through us.” — Fr. Andrew (36:44)
  • Idolatry is about misplaced agency and fundamentally weak spirits compared to God.

5. The Place of Names/Naming & Integration (Frankenstein, Angels, Demons)

[41:23 - 49:08]
Caller: Moses

• Question: Does giving a name (e.g., to Frankenstein’s monster, to an angel, or to a psychological problem) have spiritual/theological significance?
• Key Insights:
  • Naming marks identity and relationship. Refusal to name the monster means Frankenstein refuses a relationship/claim.
  • “Naming something ... is giving it a reality and identity to the relationship between the two of them.” — Fr. Stephen (47:56)
  • In the spiritual world, to name is to claim, relate, or ‘integrate’ — hence, why the Church is cautious about naming in certain contexts (like guardian angels).

6. Living Among New Age/Pagan Paraphernalia

[58:44 - 64:49]
Caller: Maria (Manitoba, Canada)

• Question: Is being around New Age or occult symbols (e.g., in nail salons, hairdressers) spiritually dangerous?
• Key Advice:
  • There is no “automatic” spiritual contagion; intention matters.
  • Opportunity to “be subversive,” i.e., pray the Jesus Prayer, sanctify the environment (60:13).
  • Early Christians were surrounded by pagan symbols and sexual iconography all the time.
  • “You cannot be like them ... but you can hold yourself apart in other ways.” — Fr. Stephen (63:30)
  • Coined term: “Spiritual cooties” — mere presence is not polluting; stick close to Christ (64:12).

7. Righteous Anger: Can Humans Manage It?

[67:24 - 73:38]
Caller: Sarah (Iowa)

• Question: Is “righteous anger” really possible for people (besides Christ)?
• Answer:
  • Yes, but it must be directed at sin/injustice, not persons.
  • What you do with anger is decisive — don’t let it fester as hatred for others, but use to fight against evil.
  • “Sitting around trying not to get angry doesn't work ... You have to learn how to channel it.” — Fr. Stephen (71:58)
  • Self-Deprecation: Fr. Stephen: “Anger is the only emotion I experience, and that only when I'm sober.” (69:08)
  • Anecdote about learning to redirect childhood violence into creative energy.

8. Paradise, Order, and the World to Come

[73:46 - 81:45]
Caller: Emilian

• Questions:
  • a) Is the destiny of the world to “tame” chaos, or will chaos (disasters, etc.) still exist in the age to come?
    • A: The creatures/systems of this world aren’t evil per se; after redemption, things (like snakes, storms) won’t harm, disturb, or threaten humans — “a hurricane just becomes a very spectacular light show.” (78:57)
  • b) What about the identity of those who die young or are isolated?
    • A: Everyone has an embodied relationship with God, if no one else. Their identity is ultimately secured in their eternal relationship with God.

9. Genealogies in Genesis and Numerology

[87:30 - 95:26]
Caller: Alfonso (Phoenix, AZ)

• Question: Are the “long ages” of Genesis literal or symbolic? Any theories connecting biblical dates to archaeological findings?
• Insight:
  • Scholars suspect Genesis uses numerology/symbolic number systems (possibly base-60 like the Sumerians), but “we haven't cracked the code yet.” — Fr. Stephen (91:08)
  • Genesis is communicating deep truths in ancient symbolic language, not modern factual reportage.

10. Saints from Heterodox Traditions

[53:29 - 57:42]
Caller: Andrew (North Carolina. Fr. Andrew’s own godfather!)

• Question: Are there Orthodox saints from heterodox (separated/heretical) groups?
• Examples:
  • St. Isaac the Syrian, technically from the Assyrian “Nestorian” Church, but widely venerated.
  • Historical example of Thomas Aquinas’ short-lived veneration in Greece.
  • The boundaries of the Church were experienced more flexibly in some eras/places.

11. Use and Abuse of Christian Imagery among Syncretic Religions

[95:43 - 100:55]
Caller: Nicholas (Boston)

• Question: Why do saints “allow” their images to be co-opted for syncretic/occult worship (e.g., botanica shops)?
• Answer: God and the saints are not harmed by this. God permits freedom, even misuse/blasphemy.
  • God can “turn the tables” — sometimes even a syncretized icon can become a point of grace for someone (referencing an anecdote about Jehovah’s Witnesses fearing icons would destroy their faith).
  • “Who knows what God will do? ... Something real will happen.” — Fr. Stephen (100:14)

12. Advice for New Clergy on Prayer Life

[104:04 - 111:28]
Caller: Andy (Richardson, Texas; Anglican cleric)

• Question: As a soon-to-be-ordained priest, how do I foster a sustainable priestly prayer life?
• Key Advice:
  • Set up a regular discipline but be merciful with yourself and others.
  • Leading family in prayer is as important as solitary devotions.
  • When newly ordained, you're often focused on “performance.” This is normal and will fade (109:12).
  • “You will get to a point where, when you're not the one celebrating, and you're at a worship service, you kind of won't know what to do with yourself anymore.” — Fr. Stephen (111:01)
  • Discipline has a purpose: to love God and neighbor.

13. Christ’s Ascension and the Sending of the Holy Spirit

[113:50 - 120:33]
Caller: Eddie (Texas)

• Question: Why does Jesus say He must go for the Holy Spirit to come (John 16:7), if the Holy Spirit was already present (e.g., at the baptism)?
• Answer:
  • The Spirit's presence at baptism is not the “outpouring” of Pentecost; that outpouring happens as a result of Christ’s ascension (His enthronement as Messiah/“Son of Man”).
  • “Christ is enthroned in the heavens ... and then because he is enthroned now, the Messianic age begins.” — Fr. Stephen (117:19)
  • Pentecost is the sign of this new age, made possible by Christ’s completed work.

14. Russia, Fatima, and “Conversion”

[121:46 - 141:48]
Caller: Christy (Ocala, Florida, Roman Catholic)

• Question: As a Catholic who loves Orthodoxy, was Russia’s post-Soviet turn to Orthodoxy the conversion prophesied at Fatima? How can we regard sacraments/validity in both Churches?
• Discussion:
  • Revival has occurred, but actual church attendance remains low; “Is it a Christian nation?” (126:57)
  • “The idea that Russia would be consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary ... probably sounds weird to most Russians ... that's not a part of their religious world.” — Fr. Andrew (127:53)
  • Both disagree with conflating culture/politics/nationalism with gospel fulfillment.
  • Both affirm: people’s salvation is what matters, not abstract arguments of validity or religious teams.
  • “If you're going Pascal's wager ... pick Orthodox, because Catholics and Orthodox both agree that you can be saved as an Orthodox Christian.” — Fr. Andrew (139:49)

15. Jewish Identity, Circumcision, and Orthodox Christianity

[142:43 - 162:31]
Caller: Daniel (Hollywood, FL)

• Question: In interfaith Orthodox homes (Jewish mother, now both Orthodox), is circumcision of male children still expected or practiced? What’s Orthodox practice?
• Insight:
  • Real-life cases: some Orthodox bishops in the US allow certain Jewish OT customs (such as circumcision, dietary practices) when they’re part of family/cultural continuity, but only with episcopal blessing and never as a means of “becoming a child of Abraham” for salvation.
  • “We need to not put this onus on Jewish people that becoming Christian means you're not Jewish anymore. ... Christianity is a form of Judaism.” — Fr. Stephen (160:20)

16. The Holy Spirit, the Filioque, and the Trinity

[163:31 - 176:21]
Caller: Christopher (Minnesota)

• Question: Why is it problematic to say that the Holy Spirit is “the love between Father and Son”? How does this relate to the filioque debate?
• Key Insights:
  • “Love between the Father and the Son” is a western analogy (from Augustine), not a definition — can risk depersonalizing the Spirit.
  • At Florence, Catholics say Spirit proceeds “from the Father and the Son as from one principle,” which Orthodox find heretical.
  • “The filioque gets sort of added ... in response to a particular Arian argument.” — Fr. Stephen (169:29)
  • Orthodox tradition insists that anything true of the divine nature must apply to all three Persons, or to one uniquely, but never just to two.
  • Catholic theology, even when affirming “correct” Trinitarian doctrine, tends (in Orthodox eyes) to “relativize the persons ... as relationships within God” rather than as true, distinct hypostases.

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Notable Quotes

• Fr. Stephen: “There was no Golden Age of the Church ... there isn't this good time.” (12:47)
• Fr. Andrew: “If you aim at Heaven, you’ll get Earth thrown in. But if you aim at Earth, you’ll get neither.” (18:17)
• Fr. Stephen: “The early Christians were surrounded by pagan iconography, and sexually graphic ... decoration everywhere.” (62:15)
• Fr. Andrew: “Greater is he that is within you than he that is in the world.” (64:22)
• Fr. Stephen: “Sitting around trying not to get angry ... does not work.” (71:58)
• Fr. Stephen: “Naming something ... is giving it a reality and identity to the relationship between the two of them.” (47:56)
• Fr. Stephen: “We need to not put this onus on Jewish people that becoming Christian means 'Stop being Jewish.'” (160:20)
• Fr. Andrew: “If you’re going to do a bit of a Pascal’s wager ... you should pick Orthodox because Catholics and Orthodox both agree that Orthodox Christians are saved.” (139:49)
• Fr. Stephen: On the filioque: “They've painted themselves into a corner ... They're almost embarrassed by it, but they have to affirm it.” (173:28)

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Tone & Atmosphere

• Gentle, frank, and occasionally humorous repartee between the priests; they sometimes poke fun at each other and play with callers’ cultural references.
• Practices radical honesty while being pastoral to questioners from a range of backgrounds: Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Anglo-Catholic, seekers and converts.
• Emphasis on nuance, mystery, and not flattening theology to simple answers.
• Repeated reminders that history is messy, the Church has always had struggles, and the only lasting “progress” is repentance and personal holiness.

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Memorable Moments

• The “Joshua vs. Judah the Hammer” fight conjecture (29:12): Joshua’s guerrilla toughness always wins.
• Discussion of Frankenstein’s monster as a metaphor for the human need for relationship and naming (41:43).
• Image of early Christians surrounded by phallic windchimes in pagan Roman cities (62:15).
• Fr. Stephen self-deprecating: “Anger is the only emotion I experience, and that only when I’m sober.” (69:08)
• “If you call someone by a nickname, that's a mark of intimacy ... trust me, I've seen someone call Father Andrew 'Andy.' It gets ugly.” (46:19)
• Humorous asides about Marvel streaming, Louise, and the “arcane tower of podcasting.”

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Conclusion

This episode serves as an excellent window into the everyday intellectual, spiritual, and even emotional dynamics of life in the Orthodox Church and the broader Christian world. The hosts offer a thoughtful and unflinching look at complex and sensitive questions, grounding their answers in scripture, church tradition, and a strikingly realistic view of history and human nature, all while never taking themselves too seriously. Listeners are reminded repeatedly that faithfulness and striving for holiness—rather than chasing cultural or personal “progress”—is the enduring vocation in turbulent times.

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Transcript

[A]

He will be a staff for the righteous with which for them to stand and not to fall. And he will be the light of the nations and the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All who dwell on the earth will fall down and worship him. And they will praise and bless and celebrate with song the lord of spirits. First Enoch, chapter 48, verses 4 through 5. The modern world doesn't acknowledge, but is nevertheless haunted by spirits, angels, demons and saints. In our time, many yearn to break free of the prison of a flat secular materialism, to see and to know reality as it truly is. What is this spiritual reality like? How do we engage with it? Well, how do we permeate everyday life with spiritual presence? Orthodox Christian priests Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen DeYoung host this live call in show focused on enchantment in creation. This the union of the seen and unseen as made by God and experienced by mankind throughout history. Welcome to the Lord of Spirits.

[B]

Hey, good evening giant killers, dragon slayers, cockroach and croachers. You are listening to the Lord of Spirits podcast. My co Host, Father Stephen DeYoung, Ogre Ish Confessor to the stars, is with me straight from the swamp in Lafayette, Louisiana. And I'm Father Andrew Stephen Damick in Emmaus, Pennsylvania, perched precariously atop the arcane tower of podcasting, hovering dozens, dozens of stories above a disused gateway to the underworld. And we are live.

[A]

Oh, I thought that story right before we came on live. I thought that was going a whole other direction. Yeah, right, like the kid who stepped on the rusty metal can, like stabbed himself. Like I thought they were giving us the origin of everybody's favorite tough as nails PI Lockjaw.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

And if you get that reference.

[B]

I.

[A]

Mean, prove to me by an email that you actually get that reference. I will give you something. Not something good. As I say, not something you want.

[B]

I mean, I understand what lockjaw is and what stepping on a rusty.

[A]

Oh, no. This is the most obscure sub reference I've ever done on this program.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And that's saying something.

[B]

All right, well, we are live and hey, listener, if you're listening to us live, you can call us at 855-237-2346 and talk to us. This episode is all calls. So if you don't call, that means I get to go home and sleep.

[A]

No one wants call. Don't call. Keep him up.

[B]

Yeah, drive him mad. We'll get to your calls. Just a second. Because this is an all Q and A live show and Matuska Trudy the Tank Richter will be taking your calls, but she also has a new. A new sidekick, Mike the Mandigan, which is. I mean, that's the nickname we're gonna apply for now until something slightly more painful arises.

So if you happen to get Mike on the phone callers, you know, be nice to him because he's new. He's new, and you don't want to get him fired on his first night on Lord of Spirits. I mean, although he would go out with a bang. I mean, that would be pretty, you know, a big honor, right, to be. To get fired tonight on Lord of Spirits.

[A]

But we haven't had an on air firing yet.

[B]

No, not yet. We've had some great excitement, but we haven't had.

[A]

We're not saying we haven't had any firings, but not on air. Exactly.

[B]

So before we begin, though, in case you guys haven't heard, the Lord of Spirits conference is going to be back for its second manifestation this October 2nd through 5th, 2025, at the Antiochian Village, featuring none other than the Very Reverend doctor Swamp Ogre himself, the Very Reverend doctor Joseph Lucas. There's a lot of reverend doctors around. Richard, Rowdy, Roddy, Roland, and your humble servant. You can get your [e-mail] events. And I suggest you hurry up and get those tickets because last time we did this, it sold out pretty fast. And who knows, this might be the very last time this conference happens. Probably will, right? Maybe.

[A]

Entirely possible.

[B]

Entirely possible.

[A]

The show may end at the event.

[B]

I know that's what you want to do.

[A]

Who knows?

[B]

Who knows?

Before we get to calls, though, I have to ask, since this is like the question that's on everybody's mind, father, how's your career as a Marvel Rivals streamer going?

[A]

That's going pretty well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Got the mic set up now. Pretty close to becoming a Twitch affiliate.

[B]

Twitch affiliate. That's a sentence.

[A]

That close to becoming a Twitch affiliate. They just announced a release date for season two. So I got some work to do in the competitive grind to get a couple of skins I want before the season ends.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Which people will be able to watch.

[B]

Do you get live? Do you get, like, paid for this or Hypothetically?

[A]

I mean, I'll believe it when I see.

[B]

Does Twitch Affiliate even me?

[A]

I'll believe it when I see it. But I mean, hypothetically.

[B]

Well, so.

[A]

All right. Well, we can get. By the way. By the way, just so you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You can get Twitch Drops by watching my channel.

[B]

I don't know what that means. What does that mean?

[A]

I know you don't know what that means.

[B]

I mean, I know what Twitch is that. I know that. I know why it's called. I don't know why Discord is called that. I don't know. But I do know what it is.

[A]

It's. It's encoded into Twitch that games will give away free in game stuff through Twitch.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So if you watch a Marvel rival stream like mine, you can get like in game sprays and emotes and stuff that are exclusive Twitch drops.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

By sitting and watching my channel.

Do.

[B]

You get to pick, like, what people get? So you give them, like, goofy stuff?

[A]

No, it's offered by the company. It's offered by the company.

[B]

Okay, that's too bad. That could be a weird form of self expression.

[A]

Yeah, well, there is some later stuff on the channel with stickers, but anyway, that's a whole other.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Whole other kettle of fish.

[B]

All right, well, we do have some callers lining up. People are obediently ringing in. So we're going to go ahead and start with our first one. And that's Janine, who her phone says she's in New York. Like Manhattan, New York. Janine, are you there?

[C]

Yes, I am. And I am in Manhattan, New York.

[B]

The belly of the beast.

[A]

Wow. Are you indigenous? And by that I mean Dutch.

[C]

No. No, I'm not. I am across the street from where, like all the crazy Halloween things happen. And there's a. The hangman's tree who's here and the. The potter's field. I'm right there. Where everything happens.

[B]

You're where it all happens.

[C]

Yeah, that's it.

[B]

All right, so. Well, welcome Laura Spears podcast. Janine, what is on your mind?

[C]

Thank you. Well, I just noticed that this number one of one, number 111, that's my birthday, so something must be going on.

All right, my question is, you recently had an episode on progress called what is Progress? And. But my question is, from my perspective, there are so many really bad, evil things happening in the world right now. I guess they always do, but especially the cleansing of Christians from all across the Middle east right now. What's happening in Syria, Armenian Christians, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and the kind of warfare we see going on. And this may be expanding. So my question is, in terms of progress, what is the perspective of progress not from the linear standpoint of history, but from the standpoint of where we are as Orthodox Christians and sort of, if I can say, the arc of what we see as progress right now? And what, what do we do in the midst of all of this when things look like they're going very badly in a lot of sort of ways? Does that question make sense to you guys?

[B]

I mean, halfway, like, the what do we do Part, that's pretty clear to me. But what do you mean by, like, what do we see as progress? Because, I mean. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

[C]

I always presume that no matter what the circumstances, I mean, as we know, Christ asked.

When I return, will I find faith on the earth? I mean, that sounds to me like a very wistful question. Like, there's a possibility that he might not. So my presumption is that for. No matter what the circumstances are, God has a plan for it. I mean, that's it. I have confidence in that. But I guess I'm asking, what is that? And what do we do in the midst of what we might see as a great falling away or bad dire outcome?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So I would start by saying that.

[C]

So what is, you know, what's. I'm sorry, like, what is that progress of what God's plan would be in the midst of that?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I. The first thing that I would say is that God's purpose is to save as many people as possible.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And in the midst of whatever is happening, he is working to do that.

And also that providentially.

The. It's not like God didn't know, you know, what would be happening at this moment in history. He absolutely knew every single little bit of it. Every, you know, subatomic movement. And this is exactly the. I mean, it sounds a little probably presumptuous to put it this way, maybe, but this is exactly the conditions needed for the salvation of everyone that's currently alive.

This is, this is. This is. This is what, what he gave us. You know, and so, I mean, we know that a lot of saints were in super tough times. In fact, typically that's where we get our saints. It's from really difficult moments in history and, you know, time and space. And so while we ask for a, you know, a tranquil, peaceful life, and there's nothing wrong with asking for that. We just tend to know that repentance is more likely when that's not the case.

Because we're, you know, when things are going well, we tend to get lazy about our salvation. So, I mean, in terms of progress, I like, I think on the individual level, a person can progress. Right? A person can become holier.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Whereas, I mean, and Father, you can correct me if I'M wrong about this. You know, I think what we were trying to kind of say in our episode in general is that it's not as though.

There is like an arc of history that's all kind of either getting better or going to bring about the end or anything like that. It's rather just that things are going to happen and we're all supposed to be struggling in our salvation in the midst of whatever's happening. And that, you know, the end of time, the day of the Lord is going to be an interruption, not a sort of conclusion. I don't know, Father, what do you think? Am I getting all that wrong?

[A]

As much as I'd like to say so, I don't know that that was that bad.

[B]

Oh, thanks.

Only get worse from here.

[A]

But yeah, we have to be careful what scale we use to measure that. Right. Like Father Andrew said.

In the mind of the Church, someone becoming a martyr is a glorious thing.

That doesn't mean we want it to happen to other people. That doesn't even mean we necessarily want it to happen to ourselves.

But when it happens, it's something we glorify God for. And.

In addition to sort of what Father Andrew said, part of the issue is that.

We always have this sort of constructed golden age in the past when things were better than they are now. That's part of how you get the downward trajectory. They used to be better.

And there was no golden age of the Church.

People will get mad at me for saying that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

This idea that there was one single undivided church for a thousand years is so much nonsense.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It is absolutely absurd. Not only were there heresies all over the place, not only are you leaving out the non Chalcedonians and the Church of the east, but you're leaving out the fact that I think in that thousand years, There were maybe 75 years total where all of the patriarchates were in communion with each other.

Somebody hadn't split communion with somebody else. There weren't two bishops somewhere.

That's just not true. Right. And the Byzantine Empire was not a golden age. Most of the kings were heretics, cruel. They're not saints. Very few of the Byzantine emperors are saints who are mutilating people, killing people. Sometimes we just celebrated the Sunday of the triumph of Orthodoxy. It's really triumphalistic until you think about the fact that were celebrating the fact that they stopped killing people and cutting off their ears and noses for having icons.

Which was going on for centuries before that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

There was no. And. And the times where things Were quote unquote, good. From a material perspective, they were mostly horrible from a spiritual perspective. Like, you could talk about Holy Russia all you want, but are you talking about during Catherine the Great.

Are you talking about under Peter the Great, who tried to bring in a Lutheran form of church government?

[B]

I mean, the basic rule is that Peter was not so great and Ivan wasn't so terrible.

[A]

Right. Like a lot of Russian czar is not saints either.

So they're just there. Isn't this good time? And.

I hope this doesn't end up being true of the Middle east. But we have to remember the North African church was destroyed.

Saint Augustine, right, North Africa, not in Rome. He was in North Africa. The western North African church, the Latin North African church. Vibrant Christianity produced saints. Saint Cyprian of Carthage, Right. Saint Augustine, right. This great flowering of Christianity wiped out by Islam.

We've lost chunks of Christianity before and then we've gained. And so who knows how long human history as we know it will continue, right. In this world.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Could be thousands of years for all we know. We don't know.

There might be star empires, who knows? But even if there's not, right. Even if we're just talking about another 1,000 years, the locus of Orthodox Christianity may shift five times.

Right. You know, the Patriarch of Korea may end up being the first among equals. Who knows what's going to happen? Right?

[C]

Right.

[A]

In terms of shifts of the faith and who comes to faith in Christ and where things happen and persecution, this is, this is all good to. This is all going to shift and change. But what's the same in every generation going back into the Old Testament is that there's always a faithful remnant of people.

And that's the core of what we're getting out of that progress episode. Despite the illusion of progress or whatever, whatever schema people want to apply to history.

[C]

Right.

[A]

The simple truth is that, that there is a faith, there is a faithfulness to the living God and a worship, a true worship of the true God that has existed for as long as humanity has existed and will exist until Christ returns. Even though in almost every generation it's really, truly being practiced only by a small remnant of people.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think, I mean, one other thing I will add is that.

It is the case to be sure, that throughout history that orthodox Christianity has generated culture. Has generated Christian culture. Right. And I think, I don't know if this is what you're asking about, but I've decided I'm going to rant on this for just a second. I Think that many times, especially Orthodox Christians in the west, whether it's people who have converted to Orthodoxy or those who grew up in it, often they look at those Christian cultures, and that is. I mean, this is like what you were saying, Father, like this idea of a golden age. And often people are like, okay, if we only get to that, if we can only build that here in America or build our own version of that or whatever, or we could have our American that. And they have that over there. We have this over here. And.

The problem with that approach is, like, there is a saying. I can't remember where he wrote it, but it's one of these sayings from. And I'm pretty sure that he actually did say this from C.S. lewis. People attribute a lot of crazy stuff to him that he never said. But there is something that I'm pretty sure he did say, which is, if you aim at heaven, you will get earth thrown in, but if you aim at earth, you will get neither. And I think that people who aim at Christian culture.

Aren'T actually aiming at Christianity. They're not actually aiming at Christ. The reason why we have. We get Christian culture is because there are people who are living as saints, and the culture kind of comes out of that, but it's not the point of it. You know, you can have. You can. From a heavenly perspective.

You can have a glorious civilization that looks like trash from the worldly point of view, right? You can have a whole group of saints who are persecuted and not able to build a thing. And from heaven's viewpoint, it's this shining city, but from the world's viewpoint, it's nothing, you know, And I think that. That the key to any kind of, like, if we're thinking in terms of, like, the progress of a Christian nation or a Christian culture, whatever.

Like, I think we just need to forget about that. It's not that those things are wrong. It's just that when you aim at that, that's not what you get. What you get, then, is actually something kind of borderline idolatrous, in my opinion. It has to be. We have to be aiming at trying to become holy, trying to be truly Christians.

And it's Christians who build Christian culture. If you try to build Christian culture without actually having real Christians, then.

Not only does it not work, you end up creating some dark, distorted version of it.

So, anyway, that was kind of a rant that I just wanted to tack on since it seemed a little.

[C]

If I could say, what distresses me is the structure of churches, the cleansing of Christians from places where they've been for thousands of years.

Yeah. I come from one of those cultures. My grandparents survived a genocide and Of Christians, and. And this is ongoing and expanding right now. And that. That distresses me. But I do take. I do take your point very seriously that we have to be Christians. I mean, that's what we have.

[B]

That's right. That's right. And. And I mean, it's very sad when a place that has seen orthodox Christian flourishing for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

If it gets destroyed.

It's very sad. It's absolutely very sad. Like, we should weep for those people especially.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But the cultures are not the point. Christ is the point. Because at some point, every culture is going to be over.

At some point, it's all going to be over.

So what will remain is whatever is compatible with the kingdom of heaven. That's what's going to remain. Whatever is an expression of that. Jeanine, thank you very much for calling. And God bless your tender heart for the people who are suffering.

[C]

Thank you for your answers. Thank you very much.

[B]

All right. Okay. It's an all call show, so we're going to head right to our next call. We have Lazarus on the line. Lazarus, welcome back from the dead. I don't know.

[A]

I think you're supposed to tell him to come forth.

[B]

Come forth. Sorry. Come forth.

[C]

Hey, guys.

How are y' all doing?

[B]

How are you?

[C]

I'm good. So I've heard a lot of. Sorry, preterists, but I don't think we've ever had an episode about predatorism before.

[A]

Well, I know who this is. Yeah, exactly who this is. Oh, I'll leave you to it then.

[C]

Yeah. But would y'. All. I was gonna ask, would y'. All. Would the podfathers be open to having one that might be your most, like, simplest episode ever, wouldn't it? Father Stephen and Father Andrew.

[A]

Yeah. Predatorism is just kind of dumb.

[B]

Wow. Just sort of point and laugh. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, like St. Paul says in Second Thessalonians that there are some among you who teach that Christ's appearing has already happened. Do not be fooled. So, you know, why are we still having this discussion?

[B]

Yeah, Well, I mean, you know, we've done a lot of stuff on eschatology. We did a series on eschatology. And, like, where I come down on that question is essentially that the. The book of Revelation is. Is a history of. Of everything. You know, it's not a history of a specific moment or some future moment. It's. It's the whole History of. Of humanity, the whole history of the world. Right. And so it doesn't make sense to try to narrow it down. Like. Like preterism, you know, saying, well, this was all fulfilled, like in the first century or whatever is just as wrong as those who say everything that's in this book is in the future, so let's figure out when that's going to happen, or whatever. You know, both approaches are wrong and are fundamentally misunderstanding the way Apocalypse even works. You know, does that make sense, Lazarus?

[C]

Oh, it makes sense.

[A]

Plus, preterism is, like your whole bit. Dude, I direct people to you.

[C]

I know.

[A]

Don't shirk your responsibility.

[C]

I gotta say that. Thank you, Father Stephen, because I had a few messages because of that, and I was like, who is this? And they're like, oh, Father Stephen told me to talk to you. And I was like, okay. Okay. Okay. That's cool.

[A]

Yeah. See, this is your. This is your thing.

[C]

I appreciate it. Just one. I wanted to say that on Live to everyone. Thank you, Father Stevens.

[A]

I'm nice. Sometimes people.

[B]

Write it down. Everybody, March 13, 2025.

All right, well, thanks for calling, Lazarus.

[C]

Thank you, Pot Fathers.

[B]

All right. Okay, next we have James calling from New Hampshire, where isn't the.

Motto is Live Free or Die, right? Live Free or die.

[C]

Yes, sir, that's the one.

[B]

Yeah. Right next to Vermont, where it's Eat cheese or die. Isn't that correct? Eat cheese or die.

[C]

That's absolutely correct. People don't usually know that, but. That's right.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I've been up there. Like, this is the real Yankee land up there. That's where the real Yankees are.

[C]

Yeah, I've heard them say that. Yeah.

[A]

Or are you in keen with the Free Staters? That's the.

Way to get spicy. You don't have to answer that question if you don't want to.

[C]

No, I don't mind. That project is not quite materialized, though. They. Yeah.

[B]

Wow, That's. That's good. Okay. So, James, what is on your mind this evening?

[C]

Yeah, so thank you for taking my call. My. My question is about imprecatory prayer. So I am a recovering Calvinist going on nine years, and in my previous tradition, imprecatory prayer in the liturgy was commonplace. We did it most of the time. And I'm just curious what an orthodox perspective or orthodox concerns relative to imprecatory prayer would be.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, we have that line, especially we chant in Holy Week, which. This line is only in the Septuagint, it's not in the Masoretic. Old Testament. Bring more evils upon them, O Lord. Bring more evils upon those who are glorious upon the earth. Where, you know, you don't want to, like, time that for when the bishop walks in, but.

[A]

Or point at parish council members.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Tonight we've got a little Bible study.

[B]

Right before parish council.

So, yeah, I mean, this stuff is in the scriptures, right? And I think. I mean, my sense of it is that largely that the church fathers interpret it in terms of our spiritual enemies, which is not other humans, and that even where it is pretty clearly aimed at other humans in the Old Testament, it's still within the context of spiritual warfare because, you know, you're talking about the nations who are literally being directly influenced and ruled by demonic powers through idolatry. Right. It's not just, I don't like this guy or think he's a super creep. So, you know, Lord, you know, smite thou him, you know, who being naughty in thy sight shall snuff it.

I don't know. What do you think, Father?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's. This is. This is one of those controversial things in the church fathers. But like, St. John Chrysostom especially talks a lot about venting anger and hate at sin.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, Right. That.

[A]

That there are correct objects for hatred.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And. And for anger. And I mean, I. I think that should be applied in a very practical way. I think that would help a lot of people. Right. So I don't hear your confessions. I'm not saying anything about the collar. But if you're addicted to pornography, you need to get to the point where you hate pornography.

Where you hate it with a perfect hatred, to borrow the biblical phrase.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That doesn't mean you hate the people who are in it or making it, because a lot of them are victims of it, too.

We don't go into all that. But that industry. But, you know, hating sin, right. And hating the demonic powers, hating the thoughts. Right. That come into our heads. Right. Is.

For people in certain situations a healthy way to help them break away from it, to help them get free of it.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Whatever it is. I just gave an example.

[B]

But yeah, I mean, I think like. Like one of the ways I've heard this discussed is frankly that sin should disgust you. You know, you want to get to a point where it's like, ooh, gross, you know, like. Like, I don't want to touch that anymore because it's so disgusting and gross.

You know, and that this. The. Like, to use the philocholic language, the incensive power like the burning power of the human soul is supposed to be directed at our sins, you know, at the corruption that we've accumulated through sinning and that. That's the ultimate point of it. It's not about, you know, smite my human enemies because I don't like them or because they oppose me or whatever. Does it make sense?

[C]

It does. Thank you.

[B]

Sure thing. Sure thing.

[A]

All right.

[C]

May I ask a very brief follow up?

[B]

All right, go for it.

[C]

So in the event of a fist fight, do you think that Joshua the son of Nun or Judah the hammer would win?

[A]

Oh, wow, Josh.

[B]

I mean, this is a wrestling question.

[A]

Joshua, hands down.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Joshua, hands down.

[C]

All right.

[A]

Joshua.

Fought in an era that was much more down and dirty.

[B]

Yeah, they're not really rules.

[A]

Like, people don't. People don't realize that at the time the conquest would have happened. You're working with.

Since Joshua was the leader, he might have had a bronze weapon. But here's the thing with bronze weapons, they don't hold an edge very well.

So you've essentially got a giant metal club that you're trying to beat people to death with.

And if he didn't, they were using farm implements. They were literally using, like sickles and, like.

Stuff to fight. Okay. By the time you get to Judah the hammer, Right. You've got more developed sense of warfare, more developed iron and steel weapons, more developed tactics. But I'm going to give it to the guerrilla fighter every day.

[B]

Yeah. And Joshua is fighting against, you know, demon powered giant clans.

So. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Judah's just fighting Greeks. So there's your hate mail to Father Andrew.

[B]

All right, thanks for calling, James. Okay, up next from. At least his phone says he's from Santa Monica, California, we have Daniel. So, Daniel, welcome to Lord Spears podcast.

[C]

Hello, fathers. Can you hear me?

[B]

We hear you. Can you hear us?

[C]

Excellent. I can hear you.

[A]

You live with two women in an apartment and you have to tell the landlord that. Anyway, never mind.

[C]

No, I actually. I actually am from New Hampshire originally as well. And it turns out is. It's live, freeze and die.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[A]

Yes, Anewaca does have beautiful weather, I will give you that.

[B]

Yeah. Is that what happened to the old man in the mountain? His face literally just finally froze off?

[C]

I think that's. Yeah. Unofficially. Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Not what they'd have you believe.

[B]

Okay. All right. But that's not your.

[C]

I have a question about. No, it's not. We could discuss further if you want. But I do have a question about Isaiah 44.

I think it's come up on the show before. But Isaiah 44 to me sounds like, you know, as a recovering materialist, it sounds like materialist critique of paganism. It kind of sounds like Isaiah is.

Insulting people for worshiping things that have no power because people made them with their hands. And it's not clear to me what the thrust of the argument is. It sounds as if he's saying.

Because, you know, the source and the material of an idol that makes it impotent. But listening to you all.

It sounds to me like the source of power for an idol comes from the demon that sits behind the material. And so if that question makes sense, I'd love to understand again, kind of the thrust of the argument for that.

[B]

Yeah, go for it.

[A]

Yeah. So the idea is, right.

Why are you worshiping this idol? Well, if we're talking about Israel in that period, it's probably an idol of baal. Now if they're worshiping baal, it's because they want fertile crops and. Or fertile wife. Right. They want children, they want the rains to come in their season. He's a storm God. Right. And they want fertile crops. So they believe that baal, the spiritual being can help them get their wife pregnant and can help their crops grow and can send rain.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

That's what they believe.

But BAAL can't carve a statue of himself.

In order to worship this spirit. Who could do all these things? They have to go cut down a tree or find a rock. They have to chisel at it and kind of make it look like baal. They have to prop it up. Right. If it falls over, BAAL can't pick himself back up. They have to pick up, pick up baal. Right. So there's all these basic tasks. He can't feed himself, he can't dress himself. All these basic tasks that they have to perform for the idol.

Why on earth would they think that he has power over rain and crops and human fertility?

Like that dog don't hunt. Right. Whereas the God of Israel created the universe and created the trees and created the rocks and created all of those things. And that's how, you know, he has the power to do the things that we ask of him. Right.

So it's pointing to a point in pagan idolatry where there's this fundamental cognitive dissonance of this all powerful spirit who's at the same time totally helpless.

[C]

Right.

[A]

That's, I think, the argument, that's what we're saying the argument is at least.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, like one of the big apologetics or polemics against paganism in the Old Testament particularly is that the gods of the nations are weak, that they can't, you know, they can't deliver on what it is that they say they can do. And like, you know, the whole thing about, like, look, you, you cut down the tree and made this idol. You, you know, you know, you smelted this and you made it this idol is essentially to say, like, like, look, you in some ways are more powerful than this God. Like, why are you asking it for help? You know? And then on the other side, Yahweh, the God of Israel, is described as not only that he created everything and rules everything, which no pagan God claims that about himself, they don't even make that claim. But also that he takes no bribe, meaning he doesn't need anything. You can't pay him off. And that's one of the reasons that he's completely different from the gods of the nations.

And I would also ask.

Why would humanity ever come up with a God like that? Because a God that you can't manipulate is not advantageous to you. So these people who say that the God of the scriptures is made up to control other people or something like that are just terrible theologians. They have no sense of the way that that worship and theology actually work.

So. Yeah. Does that make sense?

[C]

Yeah, I think so. So what you're saying essentially is that.

The gods of the nations are not powerful in the ways that the people, the worshipers of them think they are, even though at the same time they are powerful in the other ways that you've been describing over the course of this show.

[B]

I, I mean, ultimately they're only powerful insofar as human beings give them power. Like their evil comes in the world through us.

You know?

[A]

Right. They corrupt, they corrupt people and corrupt God's creation. But like, a demon can't, like, of his own accord, send a hurricane.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or ward one off. Yeah, Right. But a demon could come and give thoughts and through giving those thoughts, convince someone to commit some atrocity.

But even there, the agency is human agency. It's a human who has to go and commit the atrocity, just like it's a human who has to go and make the idol. These are all things that the demons are manipulating people into doing toward their own destruction. So it's just a negation of who God is and what God does. They're not powerful in the sense that they certainly can't oppose God about anything, really.

But they also can't do anything to you. Right. Like.

Physically Unless you've entered into some kind of thing. Right. Unless you voluntarily.

Become party to something.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, and if that seems like, I don't know, unbelievable, whatever, I mean, humans can do this too. Like, you know, think of any murderous dictator, no matter how big and powerful that particular guy was. The reason why his. His power over people worked is because they. They gave that. That power to him. You know, they went along with what he said. He was able to manipulate and control them through. Through that influence, not because he was out there, you know, doing all that bad stuff directly himself. Right. It takes, you know, an army or whatever to make that stuff happen. Does it make sense?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. So the materialist says the demons have no power because they don't exist. The pagan says the demons have all these kinds of power that they don't have. And you're correcting the record to say that a demon has power in the sense it has reality, obviously, and then it has power in the sense that it can influence our thoughts, which is a significant power once we.

God forbid, actualize that. But other than that, they don't have that power.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, they can't make it rain. They can't.

[C]

That makes sense.

[B]

All right. All right, thank you very much for calling, Daniel. So before we get to our next caller, there is a burning question that has come up in the YouTube chat, Father Stephen.

And there is an Anglican cleric from Canada who wants to know about your involvement in the prime video House of David show. Do you want to reveal anything about that?

[A]

I'm not under an NDA, but I'm also not going to spill tea all over the place. Um.

[B]

I haven't watched it yet, so I don't even know if it's good. And I know you.

[A]

I haven't. I haven't watched it.

[B]

You're following the Shatner rule, right?

[A]

I haven't watched it. There was. Well, no, it's not the Shatner. So, okay. I was a consultant.

On the show at a certain stage of the scripts being of the original drafts of the scripts being written. In early stage of script development, I was a consultant and I did some more consulting in, I think, some of the early stages of filming.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

From what I have seen from people's comments and reviews.

There is some stuff that came from me that ended up sort of making it through the process.

There is other stuff where they pretty clearly ignored me.

And that's fair. That's totally fair. Like, I'm not complaining. I was a consultant. I consulted. Right. I was not the Only consultant.

[C]

Right.

[A]

That's what I'm there to. They asked me a question, I answer the question for them, and they do whatever they want. They're TV people.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I'm not.

So, yeah. So basically what I'm going to do is anything good that's in the show, I'm going to try and take some of the credit for. And anything bad, I'm just plausible deniability.

[B]

There you go. All right, so there you go. We're going to take one more call before I go to our first break, and that call is from Moses. So, Moses, welcome to the Lord of Spirits podcast.

[A]

Do you want us to let your people go?

[C]

Well, hello. Thanks for having me.

[B]

You're welcome. Welcome, welcome. Yeah, we can let his people go. Do you have people to let go, Moses?

[C]

You know, I have a lot of stuff to let go while I've been counseling, I guess.

[B]

So what's on your mind?

[C]

Okay, so I just finished reading Mary Shelley's Frankenstein for the first time.

[B]

Oh, man, that's a heck of a question.

[C]

Yeah, it's really cool. So Frankenstein's monster, I'm sure, as most people know, did not have a name.

[B]

Yeah, it's just the monster.

[C]

Right. And so. And then related to that, it seems like a trope that, you know, we refer to so and so but don't use their name.

And then the question directly about Frankenstein's monster is, if he did have a name, would he have been less monstrous, perhaps, maybe more integrated? Related to that, we oftentimes pray for help from a guardian angel, often unnamed, and then, I guess, more materially. In modern psychology, we're often led to name our problems specifically so that we can confront them. All that to say, how does naming or not naming something affect how we relate to the world, both seen and unseen?

[B]

This is a good question. I mean, I think, like, I'll speak from a literary point of view, since this is literally something I have expertise in.

I mean, I think in the book, the way that the namelessness of the monster functions is that. I mean, there's probably whole papers that have been written on this. I have not written a paper on this. But is that.

It becomes this possibility for displacement for everybody in the story.

That everything.

Whatever their desire is, can be sort of put on this thing, and it belongs to them on some level, whether it's something good or something bad. They might be horrified by it, which obviously a lot of people in the story are, but it makes it so that there's nothing.

It's not, you know, it's not controllable. It's not tamable. You know, and the fact that it's an amalgamation from a lot of different bodies, I think feeds into all of that as well. Right. You know, so that it's this, in some ways, an ultimate hybrid, but it's a hybrid of humans. Right. You know, just sticking parts together.

So, yeah, I mean, it's. It's a. Quite frankly, I think it's a really interesting book for this moment in Western history to think about what it means in terms of humanity and all of that.

So, yeah, I mean, that's. That's some of what I would say in terms of what it's doing as a story.

For Father. I mean, what is the place of naming.

With the monstrous?

[A]

And I will bring the gigantic monster perspective to this.

[B]

Yes. Literally an ogre in a swamp.

[A]

Yeah. So one of the things that's interesting to me is that very quickly, in adaptations and sort of secondary literature related to Frankenstein, I don't know if you've noticed this, but they start giving him a name.

They start naming him Adam.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And trying to draw this connection, right, not to Prometheus, but to the creation of humanity.

And it's not that those themes aren't there, you know, with wanting to have a wife, maid and stuff. But.

But I think it's interesting because.

People are trying. What people are trying to do is they're trying to create.

A certain kind of relationship between Frankenstein and the monster.

They're trying to make him his son.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or they're trying to make him his, like God and Adam. They're trying to, like, impose this. And I think naming.

Naming something, or naming someone, giving someone a name and calling them by a name. Think about, you know, if you call someone by a nickname.

Or a shortened version of their name, right. That's a mark of intimacy.

Right.

And if you do that, like, trust me, I've seen someone call Father Andrew Andy. It gets ugly.

[B]

Don't even say that.

[A]

You do not want to do that. You do not want to do that. Like, it's a no go straight. Although you do go by Father Steve.

[B]

In your Marvel Rivals career. Well, yeah.

But.

[A]

Right, but I'm sure she doesn't. But I'm sure if his wife decided to start calling him that, he would ultimately acquiesce probably, right? Maybe not. I don't know, but I know she does. So it probably never happened. But part of that is that it's a mark of intimacy that you can talk to somebody that way. Right.

I imagine if you went to the White House right now and said, hey, Donnie, what's up? That wouldn't go so well.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, you know.

And so. And I've seen, you know, I've seen orthodox bishops referred to by their parents by shortened versions of their first name. Right. And they could get away with that because it's their parent.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's that relationship there. And so I think part of him not giving the monster a name is him not wanting to have a. Right. Not wanting to have that kind of relationship with it. Yeah, Right. Because it's not just an identity for the monster, but it's. It's giving it a reality and identity to the relationship between the two of them.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Like if I could call you Betty and Betty when you call me, you call me Al. Right. We clearly have a relationship of some.

[B]

Sort of literally my grandparents names, by.

[A]

The way, bodyguard and long lost pal in this case.

[C]

But perfect. Yeah.

[B]

And my father and his brother are Bill and Ted. I just have to put that out there as well.

[A]

But yeah, so, so I. To me, I think that's at least part of what's going on there, is that it's not just identity, but it's identity, like all identity identities found in relationship.

Right. When Christ calls Saint Peter Petros. Right. Calls him Rocky, that is a reflection of their intimacy and their friendship.

I think this is something we don't key in. Maybe St. Peter was like friends with God and God called him by a nickname.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like that's that. That's an expression of that. So I think that's part of what's going on.

[B]

There you go. Does that make sense?

[C]

It does. Thank you very much.

[B]

You're welcome. All right, we're gonna go ahead and take our first break and we'll be right back on this all live Q A episode of the Lord of Spirits podcast. See you soon.

[A]

Father Andrew. Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment to take your calls on the next part of the Lord of Spirits. Give them a call at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

The centuries after the Protestant Reformation brought about a radical reinterpretation of The Epistles.

[B]

Of St. Paul, disconnected from any historical reality. But Paul operated during his entire life.

[A]

As a faithful Pharisee within the Roman Jewish world.

[B]

In St. Paul the Pharisee, Jewish apostle to all nations, Father Stephen DeYoung surveys Paul's life and writings, interpreting them within.

[A]

The holy tradition of the Orthodox Church. This survey is followed by de Young's.

[B]

Interpretive translation of St. Paul's epistles, which.

[A]

Deliberately avoids overly familiar traditional terminology.

[B]

By using words and ideas grounded in 1st century Judaism, DeYoung hopes to unsettle commonly held notions and help the reader reassess St. Paul in his historical context. Available now at store.ancientfaith.com Again, that is.

[A]

Store.Ancientfaith.Com we're back now with the Lord of Spirits, the Father Andrew, Stephen Damick, and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 855-237-2346. That's 8-55-AF-ADIO, Voice of Steve.

[B]

And we're doing an all live, all Q and A episode tonight. You know what that means? It means we didn't have to do a briefing earlier today, so I got a little homework done. Yeah, true. Yeah.

[A]

A little less of you in my life.

[B]

I mean, at this, you know, we're a week and a half into Lent. Probably could use a little less of each other in each other's lives, you know, just a little more.

[A]

Well, I mean, I'm always a delight, but irritable, you know.

[B]

Like salted licorice. Yes. Which you warned me one time was a trap.

[A]

Yes. Although apparently I've discovered Palestinian people in general.

The Dutch and Palestinians are the only people who like it.

[B]

Huh. And my wife is mostly. Well, she's half Palestinian. As they say in Arabic. She's nus. Nus. But apparently through her mother, the other half side, there is some drop or two of Dutchness. So I don't know. She did like it. She did like that salted licorice. I tried it and it was indeed one of the most vile things I had ever put into my mouth, thus proving I do not have a single, single ounce of Dutch blood.

[A]

You should stick to stroopwafels.

[B]

Yes, I do love a good stroopwafel. Stroopwafel. It's hard to say, like, without it, a German accent.

[A]

Do you know. You know the correct way to eat one, right? You put it on top of your coffee.

[B]

Yes, I have. Yes, yes, yes, I'm aware of this. Yep, yep, yep, yep. All right. Well, our next call is from my namesake, another Andrew, this one from the old north state, the land of the longleaf pine. Welcome, Andrew from North Carolina.

[C]

Father Andrew.

[B]

Yeah, Are you there?

[C]

Yeah, I'm here. And this is your godfather. Oh, it is calling in again. Yeah. What's up?

[B]

How are you?

[C]

Well, I have. I have a qu. I'm good. I have a question for Father Stephen.

[B]

Okay, I'll just sit back, take a nap or something.

[A]

Hello, Godfather.

[C]

I'm a fan of your. I was going to email him, but you know, he never answers his email, so.

[B]

He doesn't.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

He's terrible.

[C]

So my question for you, Father Stephen, is you said that there were Orthodox saints that we venerate that were members of heterodox groups. I mean, groups that were either separated or even sort of heretical.

Did I get that right?

[A]

Yeah. You want exhibit A?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

St. Isaac the Syrian.

[C]

Oh, really? Okay.

[B]

Yeah. He technically belonged to what we would now call the Assyrian Church of the East, AKA the Nestorians.

And through his ascetical writings he became venerated in. In the Orthodox Church.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

And my understanding, I know you asked Father Stephen this, but I do know one or two things about this. My understanding is that, and I'm not a Saint Isaac of Syria scholar by any means, but my understanding is there's not even a hint of historianism in his writings.

And so even though he canonically belonged to that other body, and I've heard people argue that that's not the case, but I don't know, I mean, I'd be happy to learn that that's not the case. I'd be happy to learn that. But all signs seem to point in the direction of that he did indeed belong to that body and was never actually in communion in the canonical sense with the Orthodox Church in his life. I'll give you another example. Now this one was short lived, so it doesn't super count as an example, but it's kind of an example in the sense that.

The way that the people of the time thought about it was clearly different than the way that it tends to be talked thought about now, which is there was a period where one of the metropolises in Greece venerated Thomas Aquinas and actually had a feast day and hymns and the whole nine yards. Now it didn't.

[C]

This was that. Oh yeah. It would have been after the split.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, Aquinas lived after the split. He was born.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

Born and died. So it's not like they didn't know, you know, they absolutely knew. That did not last. And so like I said, it doesn't count as a super great example, but it shows that the sense of the boundaries.

Was just different. I mean, I'm not saying that.

[A]

Well, you have to think historically.

[B]

Yeah, like it's just a historical reality.

[A]

People don't like think realistically historically like, you'll hear these people say, why didn't Martin Luther join the Orthodox Church? And it's like, how 60 years after the fall of Constantinople, why didn't a German join the Orthodox Church? Like, is that a serious question? You know, like.

[C]

Yeah, I completely understand.

[A]

Yeah, it's not a thing. And so if you're born in a certain place at a certain time, you know, the Holy Spirit works where he will. Right.

[C]

It's true.

[A]

Yeah. And so I think there's an acknowledgment of that with certain people that, like.

Had this person been born in an Orthodox country with access to an Orthodox church, they would have been Orthodox.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And would have been regarded as a saint.

[B]

Yeah. Does that help?

[C]

Well, that helps tremendously. I just want to let you all know, I think Father Andrew knows because I wrote him earlier this week, but I am. I am doing an apologetic response to a Gavin.

[B]

Gavin Ortland video in which he said, basically, we think.

[C]

Yeah, basically says that we think that all the. Anyone outside the Orthodox Church is damned. So this sort of. This sort of messes that up.

[B]

This is. Right. Is this for Toastmasters? You're going to do it at Toastmasters?

[C]

Yes, for Christian apologetics. Toastmasters Club.

[B]

I was gonna say. That must be a heck of a Toastmasters.

[A]

Well, Orland loves me to pieces. I'm his favorite guy.

[B]

Yeah. So. Well, thanks for calling. Nice to hear from you, Godfather. See, you're probably the first anything, like a member of my family that's ever called. Whereas Father Stephen has, like, had, I think, all of his sisters, his mom has called in his wife. Didn't your wife call at some point?

[A]

No, she's been in the YouTube chat, though.

[B]

She's in the YouTube chat right now, actually.

[A]

Oh, okay. Well, there you go. Yeah. Is she hyping my stream? Is that the.

[C]

Well, again, thank you. Thank you so much, Fathers. That really helps a lot. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you. Hope to see you soon. Okay, next is Maria, who claims to be Trudy's friend.

[A]

So, Maria, why don't you tell.

[B]

I mean, how long have you known Trudy? Do you have any dirt on her? Any other alternative nicknames that we could start applying to her besides just the Tank? I don't know.

[C]

No, I don't, unfortunately.

[B]

Did you know her in her Tank era when she was being called Tank?

[C]

No. No, I wish I did. I wish I did.

[A]

Okay. All right.

[B]

Well, all right. But you are from way up there in Manitoba, right? I'm told that's the Texas of Canada. Is that correct?

[C]

Yes, sure.

[B]

How do we know that Texas isn't the Manitoba of America? I mean, that could be, right? I don't know.

[C]

Could be.

[B]

Could they handle that? Could Texas handle that? I don't think so.

[C]

Well, not now with all the beef going on with the tariffs and whatnot. But anyway, they shouldn't bring up politics.

[A]

Was that a cattle pun?

[B]

Yes, it was. Nice.

Okay, Maria, what is on your mind from way up there in the Great White North?

[C]

Okay, so I don't know. I feel like maybe it's a little bit of a silly question, but.

I was just getting my nails done at the salon as maybe you don't know what that experience is like, but I just noticed that with salons and, you know, any kind of, like, even fashion nowadays, like, there's so much of that New Age influence, and I'm wondering that if, you know, if there's any danger in kind of even passively participating. Like, for example, today, you know, where I had my hands while she was working on my nails, there was like crystals hanging and a dream catcher and all this stuff. And I've been to hair salons before where the stylist is wearing an apron that has like a tarot card motif. And it's just like. I don't know if it's just my anxiety, but part of me worries that, you know, even by kind of being exposed to that or whatever, that could be harmful in some way. But I'm just curious about your thoughts on it. Like, do you have to really intentionally be interacting with things like that to have a negative influence? Or is there harm in just kind of possibly being around that stuff?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, Short answer. Yeah, you do need to have. There needs to be some kind of intentionality. Although, like, to me, it's an. It's an opportunity.

To be subversive. Like, you could be in there and, like, praying the Jesus prayer quietly, whatever. And then people like, wait, why isn't my demon stuff working? You know, so you can, like, turn the lights out on them, so to speak, by doing that. I mean, that's real. That is a real thing. Like, there's a story. I mean, so there's a book called Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, which by Father Seraphim Rose. There's some things about it I like. There's some things about it that I think needs some work. I know there's a lot of people are going to hate the fact that I said that at all, but there is a fun story in there, Father Andrew. Yeah, exactly. Now you can send Hate mail to me because it's me. But, but. But there's a fun story in there where he. He recounts how there was some group of, I think, tourists who were in India and they were going to go sort of watch an Indian. I don't know how to pronounce this correctly. Fakir. I don't think it's faker anyway. I don't know, do like some kind of spiritual show. I don't know, some kind of effect, whatever. And there was a priest. There was an orthodox priest in the group. And.

He. He went. And while this fakir was like, making some kind of illusion in front of everybody, the priest suddenly realized, like, what am I even doing here? And he started praying the Jesus prayer. And then it disrupted the whole thing. And then the fakir looked at him like, you horrible, horrible man. You know, Even though I was just like, internally, he was just praying, you know, So, I mean, that kind of stuff is real. I mean, my. I don't know, my thought is, like, okay.

Are you going there for that stuff? Like, is that what you're focusing on?

You know, if it is, then, yes, you have a problem. But if it's just like, oh, you know, my hairdresser has this goofy whatever.

You know. Yeah, yeah. It's not magic, you know.

[A]

Yeah, well, I mean, it technically is, but I mean.

[B]

Right, but I'm not. But I'm saying it doesn't work, like, automatically.

[A]

Right, right.

[C]

I mean, you have to use the.

[A]

Today I learned that Manitoba is the Sedona of the north.

[B]

But.

[A]

The.

You have to remember, the early Christians. Right. Were just surrounded by pagan iconography.

[B]

Yeah. They couldn't get away from it.

[A]

And are graphic. Yes. Sexually graphic, you know, and sometimes also violent. Like pagan art and symbols. And by symbols, I mean, like. So this is.

Going to push the envelope here, but only slightly.

One of the parts they don't show you about Pompeii, like, they show you all the Roman villas and everything that are preserved and everything. They don't show you that, like, hanging everywhere as, like, wind chimes. They had, like, little brass male genitalia.

[B]

Yes.

True story.

[A]

There were just like, male genitals everywhere, like, hanging on things made of different materials as decoration. This is the world that Christians in the Roman world had to operate day to day in.

Right. And this is part of the background of when St. Paul is, like, talking to them in Corinth and stuff. This is what they're dealing with. And he's saying, look, I know you can't leave the world, right? I can't tell you not to associate with any of these people because it's all the people in your city.

But you cannot be like them. Right. And you can. Right. And you can hold yourself apart in other ways. Right. Like the ways Father Andrew is describing. Right. Without having to just, you know, flee from. From the. The expressions of their paganism.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense, Maria.

[C]

It does. And I like the phrase that I've heard you use before. Spiritual cooties. That kind of helped me today.

So.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you know, it's. It's like what it says in the scripture. Greater is he that is within you than he that is in the world. Right. I mean, that's, you know, you know, you. You are with Christ. He is, as Septuagint puts it, king of the gods, you know, so. So just stick close to him and you'll be fine.

[C]

Thank you so much, Fathers.

[B]

Thank you very much for calling. All right, next we have Sarah from Iowa. Is this who I think it is? I mean, how many Sarahs from Iowa listen to this show?

[C]

There are so many Sarahs in Iowa and in the world.

[B]

And they all listen to the Lord of Spirits.

[C]

They all listen to Lord of Spirits. Everyone listens to the Lord of Spirits. Everyone who's any.

[A]

And how many of them are plain and tall?

[B]

Oh, actually, this Sarah is very tall.

[C]

I'm the only one I know who qualifies for that description.

[A]

Yeah, I didn't call you plain for the record. That was a self laid.

[B]

I would never call anyone that.

I met, Father. I met Sarah recently in Nebraska. Actually, she came all the way over to Nebraska, although she was in the part of Nebraska that's practically Iowa because it's right there on the border and you literally have to drive through. I discovered this. You have to drive through Iowa to get to the Omaha airport from Nebraska.

Because of some weird quirk. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So anyway, the movie Sarah Plain and Tall is forever etched in my memory because I had a great aunt who. It was her favorite movie and.

She just loved it. Loved all the performances, loved the male lead. And so one day she went to a video store and rented a bunch of other Christopher Walken movies.

[C]

No way.

[A]

And it went really badly. I'll bet. Oh, man.

[B]

Okay.

All right, Sarah of Iowa, what's on your mind?

[C]

Your last caller actually reminded me of the time I went to a whirling dervish show in Istanbul. I didn't. I knew what it was, but she didn't. And she thought, oh, this is and that's what everyone says. If you look up things to do in Istanbul, every single one of them says, go see the whirling dervishon. And so we went, because she really wanted to. And it was. It was definitely a like, pray through this experience kind of thing, because it was very.

Weird. It's very much a religious experience, a religious festival, but a very strange one. Even the Muslims think it's strange. Like it's an art thing now. But the actual religious practices of them are largely outlawed throughout most of.

[B]

It's not a dance troupe.

[C]

It is not a dance troupe. It is not a dance troupe. They sin so fast, though, man, I would fall over long before that. But my question was about the concept of righteous anger. And so I know.

The Bible says in your anger, do not sin and things like that, and it doesn't seem like anger itself is a sin. But my real question is, can humans really be angry without sinning? Are humans capable of that besides Jesus?

[B]

It's hard, that's for sure.

I mean, it is a thing, right?

But ultimately, like we were saying to our caller who was asking about imprecatory prayer, who was hoping to bring more evil upon those who are glorious upon the earth.

The righteous anger should really be directed at our sins. And I mean, often we have some sense of that. And it's not perfect, but, like, you have a sense of like, okay, there I go again, kind of thing. Right. Which is sort of the beginning of that idea.

But it takes. I mean, it takes practice to do this correctly. Most of us, we're going to only ever do it imperfectly.

And I think it's like, if someone feels a sense of anger at someone else being harmed.

There'S nothing wrong with that. The question is, what do you do with that? Like, if you then hate the person doing the harm, then you have a problem. Okay, right. But. But to feel a sense of. Of anger and want to destroy that from happening, that's. I mean, that's good. But the question is, what do you actually do?

You know, because an emotion is an emotion.

It's what you do that really, really counts. Father, anything you want to add? Subtract, divide, multiply.

[A]

I'm a little bit of an expert since anger is the only emotion I experience.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

And that only when I'm sober. But.

The.

Yeah. Building off of what Father Andrew said.

So, for example, from scriptures, when St. Paul's boat is pulling into Athens.

[B]

He.

[A]

Sees all the idols.

And it says in the original text that wrath or ye, right? Like seething anger and wrath was stirred in his heart.

Right? Anger at this. Now, he didn't, you know, jump off the boat and scream, you filthy pagan scum, die.

You know, try to start some kind of jihad, right? Like, that wasn't what he did, Right. But he used anger. Now I'm going to sound like I'm from Sedona. Anger is energy, right? Anger is motivation.

And you can look out at the world and see injustice and see things that are wrong and things that are bad and be angry about it and use that anger to motivate you to get up out of your chair and go do something about it.

Or you can use that anger to go out and be destructive.

Right? Go burn down the local Walgreens to express your dissatisfaction, right?

That's what it means in your anger. Do not sin. Right. Take that anger, as St. Paul did in Athens, and. And use it to motivate you. Right. And it could be a helpful motivator against sloth.

Right. It may take a lot for us to finally notice it, you know, do something to do something about it, Right. Other than complain, gossip, wine, Right. All those other things that are easy and we could do from the comfort of our chair. Yeah. Post on the Internet.

[B]

I'm standing with the afflicted.

[A]

Anger can't have that positive effect, Right. If it could motivate us to go and then we could channel it. Right? And people who are dealing with anger and confession, I always try to work on this with them. Like sitting around trying not to get angry. Doesn't work.

Okay. As a kid with a horrible, violent temper, right? I had adults all the time, just count to 10.

Right? Like, all this nonsense that doesn't work, okay? Does not work.

You can't just not get angry, Right. Look how that works out for Bruce Banner.

You have to learn how to channel it. You have to learn how to channel that into productive ways and activity and actions that are helpful and useful and constructive.

[C]

So is that your secret? You're always angry?

[A]

I pretty much am, yes. My wife will probably validate that in the.

Yes. I went from a kid who would literally have violent, like, physically violent outbursts and get fights all the time. When you see those lists of sins in the New Testament and, like, brawler is on there, and you're like, what is that about? That was me. Like, okay. Like, I would have been in jail if I grew up more close to the present time. Like, they let kids fight when I was the kid.

[C]

Yeah. They don't do that anymore. It's not A plan.

[A]

Right. And yeah, a lot of it is like learning how to do other things with it.

And always being angry, but learning how to do other things with it.

[C]

Like write books and get the redirection, essentially.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Take anger and point it somewhere else.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, did you know that most of Father Steven's books were written out of a desire for revenge?

[C]

It is a powerful motivator. Yeah.

[B]

There we go. True.

[A]

I'll show Father Andrew.

[B]

I know I'm falling behind. I think we're both going to come out with book six at the same time.

[A]

There's going to lap you.

[C]

It's that thesis. It got in the way. You had to write something else.

[B]

I know. All right, well, Sarah, thank you very much for calling.

[C]

Thank you. Have a good night, Fathers.

[B]

You too. Okay, we have Emilian calling next. So, Emilian, welcome to the Lord of Spirits podcast.

[C]

Hello, Father. Thanks for taking my call. And as usual, I have two questions, if that's all right.

[B]

If not, it's all right.

[C]

Yes. So my first question, my main question is about the paradise. So in previous episode, in the first part of this show, you talked about the paradise, and.

You mentioned that it was basically this garden, this place of.

Presence, which was the perfect, let's say, mix of order and life.

And it was also like a temple where the first humans were placed. And.

They had to work in this. In this garden that God made for them. And they basically had to expand it so that the whole. That paradise would encompass the whole earth. But because of their sin, their transgression, they were expelled from paradise, as we know.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

So they were. They were expelled in this present world where there is death and suffering and all that. But on the other hand, some episodes ago, I don't remember exactly when, he also said that what is basically in this world, what is outside the paradise, the chaos of this world. So earthquakes, hurricanes, and all of that are not.

Inherently evil or bad in itself, but they are.

Bad for us because we are sinners. And through our sin, we are mortal, we are.

Corruptible.

So it is our sinfulness that makes all these natural.

Manifestations bad for us. So.

Which is it? Do we need to expand the paradise to tame, let's say, the entire world? Or.

Will. Will.

The life in the age to come.

Have these. These natural, let's say.

Manifestations, but they won't be a problem for us anymore.

[B]

That's an interesting question. I mean, my. My first thought is, goes to where in the revelation of St. John, it talks about the sea being like Glass, which suggests to me that the creation is finally at rest in a way that it's not in this life. I don't know. Father, what do you think? Am I tracking the right direction there?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think in answering that question, I would analogize to other elements of creation. Right? So you're talking about what we call natural disasters, right? But think about, like venomous snakes.

Or animals that are predators.

[B]

Or.

[A]

Even bacteria.

Right? So there's bacteria that help us live, right? If the bacteria. If all the bacteria in our guts die, we die.

Because we can't digest food. But at the same time, we get the wrong kind of bacteria in the wrong place, it can get us sick and kill us. So just like I think in the world to come, I see no reason why I would say that in the world to come there won't be any snakes. Like rattlesnakes will just cease to exist.

Rather, I would say, well, they're not going to bite people and poison them and kill them, right?

Or lions or tigers or, you know, hippos aren't going to exist, I think. I wouldn't say for sure they're not going to exist. We don't know exactly how that'll work with animals in the age to come. Of course, there's a mystery to it, but I don't see any reason why they wouldn't exist. They just wouldn't harm humans, right? Because those are the images we get, like in Isaiah, right? Of the little kid reaching into the asps thing and not getting bitten. Right?

And I wouldn't say there aren't going to be any bacteria in the world to come, right? I don't know. Again, exactly. I'm not saying biological processes will all be the same in the life of the world to come. We don't know. But I don't see any reason why there couldn't be bacteria. Those bacteria just won't be harmful to us.

[C]

Right?

[A]

So the same way, you know, a majestic thunderstorm. I don't know how climate patterns are going to work in the age to come. Obviously, there's a mystery to it, but, you know, a hurricane just becomes a very spectacular light show if human life is not endangered.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Right.

[B]

What's your second question? What's your second question, Amelia?

[A]

So that would be my analogy there.

[C]

All right, so my second question is related to the problem of identity. So you said that our identity is basically based on our bodily interactions and relations in this life, and these will become eternal after the resurrection at the judgment of Christ. So what identity Exactly. Would have after the resurrection, those who die early, children, babies, especially those who die even before their birthday.

[B]

Father Stephen, you're going to be answering this question for the rest of your life.

[A]

No, now we can just refer them to this episode. There we go. So all of those folks, you know, or an orphan or someone on a desert island, or, you know, the last survivor of the Greenland colony, Greenland Viking Colony.

They all have a relationship with God, if no one else. And our relationship with God is not bodiless. That's why the Orthodox Church, we have things like prostrations that I've become acutely aware of the last couple of weeks. It's ever more acute as I get older.

Bodily movements. Right. That's why we fast from food that we put into our physical body. Right. All of these things have this bodily component because that's part of who we are.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Our relationship with God is not this ephemeral thing where we astrally project and meditate and ascend beyond our body to go and meet with God in some pure state. That's some gnostic, Platonic thing, but it's very much us. That includes our body, but we have a relationship with God if no one else. And this is reflected in the. Like in St. Basil's liturgy, it talks about, you know, we pray for those whom we've forgotten to pray for because we know that God knows every person and who they are and where they are and what they need.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So even where the person hasn't had a long life or they've been failed by all of the humans in their life, they still have a relationship with God. And having who you are for eternity defined by your relationship with God, I think is a beautiful thing, not a negative thing.

[B]

All right. I hope that helps, Emiliane.

[C]

Sure. Thank you.

[B]

All right, thank you very much for calling. Okay, next we're going to go to Tyler, who? His phone says he's in Louisville, Kentucky. Tyler, are you in Louisville, Kentucky?

[C]

I am indeed.

[B]

All right.

Do you fall in the Louisville or Louisville? I mean, I've heard people from there say it both ways.

[C]

Yeah, those people moved here.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

So as far as I know, it's just Louisville. Almost two syllables.

[B]

Yeah, Louisville.

[C]

Yeah. But we'll take Louisville if you have to call it that.

[B]

You know, right across the river from you. I'm trying to remember the name of the town.

But anyways, there is a mid 20th century faith healer named William Branham who is buried right across the river from you. And he has the weirdest grave. Not the weirdest I've ever seen, but pretty weird. Have you ever gone and seen it?

[C]

I've never gone to see it. I wrote a paper on him in college.

[B]

Oh, you should go there. You should totally go there.

[C]

It's in Jeffersonville, and he's basically the fount of, like, a thousand heresies and cults. Yes. It's wild.

[B]

Yeah. And if you wander around in that cemetery, you will find multiple followers of his that have references to him, him and his church on their gravestones. Including a couple of rows away, there's a big, big cross where there's this poem written on the back of this lady's grave in which she celebrates all of the weirdest teachings of William Branham, including the serpent. Serpent seed stuff. It's so wacky. So wacky. You should totally go. Anyway, that's not what you called about.

[C]

Sorry. He believed that his sinuses were specially formed by God to be able to pronounce the tetragrammaton correctly, and then Christ would return.

[B]

I mean, that seems pretty reasonable.

[A]

So he's a predecessor of the black Hebrew Israelites to boot.

[C]

The opposite way. He was a. He was a white supremacist, but yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Well, hey, just different ethnicity. Anyway.

[B]

I mean.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway.

My question is, I've heard you, maybe on this podcast, maybe on whole counsel, Father Stephen, but I've heard you refer to the Spirit descending upon Christ in the manner of the dove, or like a dove would light upon someone and not bodily and.

[A]

Right. They're not saying, we saw this bird and that bird was the Holy Spirit. Yes.

[C]

So.

I was reading St. John of Damascus, exact exposition. And he mentions that the Spirit descended in bodily form. I thought, wow, that's awfully bold. And I saw a footnote, and I looked down at the bottom of the page, and the footnote is referencing Luke 3. 22, which sure enough says bodily form. So Matiko Edi. And I. And I don't know how else to read that other than it appeared to be descending with a body of a dove.

[A]

Yeah. So I'd have to look at that word, which I don't think I could get access to right now. I'd have to look at the original Greek of what St. John said and what they're translating as bodily form.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, at least in. In Luke 3. 22, the word that is there is. Is.

Somatico idi. Yeah. So like in the.

But it doesn't mean. It doesn't mean.

[A]

There's the comparative like or as.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Exactly.

So the Point is that.

It'S moving like a dove moves, like the body of a dove moves.

Right. You know, not that he looked like a bird.

You know, because it doesn't say that the Holy Spirit is a dove or as a. You know.

[A]

Or incarnate. As a bird.

[B]

Right, exactly.

[A]

No, that's not what St. John meant. Right. Like.

[C]

Right. And I cross referenced, and I wondered if this had anything to do with it, but I looked over into Philippians 2, and Christ is not in the form of a servant in the same way that the Spirit is in bodily form. In Luke, they don't have the same Greek word, so.

[A]

Yeah, it's a different. Yeah, it's a different construction.

[B]

And it says like. It says oc. Right. Which means like. Or as, you know, in the manner of.

[C]

Yeah, the manner of a bodily form. All right. It just. Every now and then I'm like, I see something in the Bible and it seems like gymnastics to make it say the opposite. And. And I trust you all, but I just wanted to.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, the problem is, of course, that. That translation is an art. It's not a science.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, but if you remember, that's.

[A]

Why I said I'd have to see the original of St. John to see what he's. See what he's translating.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But, you know, the Holy Spirit is not incarnate, period. Like, that's a theological dogma you can take to the bank. So that means that you can't interpret the Bible in terms of him somehow being incarnate as a bird.

[C]

Yeah, that's true.

[B]

You know, it just doesn't work.

But who knows? Maybe you'll see something over Branham's grave when you go visit. There is, in fact, a bird on top of it. Statue of an eagle.

[C]

Yeah, he had birds factor into his story, unfortunately. So. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Anyway.

[C]

All right, well, thank you, brother.

[B]

Thank you very much for calling, Tyler. Okay, next we have Alfonso. And Alfonso is in Phoenix, so, you know, maybe he takes a trip to Sedona once in a while. Alfonso, welcome to the Lord of Spirits podcast.

[C]

Hello, Father. Thank you for having me.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, welcome.

[C]

My question has to kind of do. Just if you. More specifically, in general, my last name. If I. If I look at it far enough, it connects to Basque people. So then.

That'S interesting to me, because in the. In general, from my little understanding with the Basque people, they're very unique in their language.

[B]

Yes, yes. As far as we know, Basque is a language isolate. Although there are. There have been some hints at Cognates between Basque and Native American languages. Believe it or not.

[C]

I have never heard. That's interesting because I'm Hispanic, you know, so my family, My family is from Mexico and whatnot. So that's why I do have the Bass name. I assume it was attached to Latin Spaniards and. And that's how I got it somehow.

[B]

Probably that's very likely. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. But I didn't know that about that there. What I was bringing up though, that led me to talk about like, okay, well, they're connected to the ever people biblically, if anything. And.

In general people, let's say a buddy of mine I talked to.

He'S more secular about the Bible. And when. When I tell him everything that I. Everything in the Bible actually happened, sometimes that causes an issue because when I say actually I'm not very. Being very specific on like, like if they. I've never had a problem with the 4000 BC timeline of. Of the biblical life because secular science shows something happened then. And then all of every. All of history we can find literally starts to. So it made me think about Adam and how that all works out. And then I was just wondering if you guys ever come across any work where Adam's age is seen as generations versus anything else. So 900. What I did was some bad math. 900 years or 930 years for Adam times 70 for an average lifespan came out to about 63, 000 years or 65. Modern science from what I can tell says that the greatest leave from Africa happens to be about 50 to 70,000 years ago. And with the fact that Eden is potentially in Africa, that's. I just wanted to know if there's any thoughts you guys have from that or if you guys ever come across a longer gist of somebody really trying to say something about any of that.

[B]

Father, this is firmly within your territory.

All this numerology stuff in Genesis.

[A]

Yeah. And Neolithic religion stuff. There you go.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So in terms of the.

Years in the genealogies in Genesis.

[B]

We.

[A]

And by we here, I mean scholars in general are pretty sure that there is a numerological pattern going on there.

[C]

Meaning.

[A]

Meaning that. That it's not just literally saying this person lived for this many years. Right. That the numbers have a greater significance than that they're reflecting something else.

But that's a code that we haven't really cracked yet. I say that because there's in the Sumerian Kings list.

The Sumerian Kings list lists the kings before the flood and then after the flood. And a lot like in Genesis, before the flood, they have these really long lifespans, and then after the flood, they have much shorter lifespans.

And before the end. And people think that, like somebody living 939 or 50, 969 years is crazy. Like there are people who live thousands of years on the Sumerian kings list.

[B]

Right. According to tens of thousands.

[A]

But what they figured out was that the numbers of the Sumerian kings list, if you use Babylonian math, which is base 60 instead of base 10, our math is base 10. Their math is base 60. They figured out that it was encoding things using these numbers about the different kings.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it was making a statement, but it was doing that through this kind of numerological thing. And once you realize they were working with base 60 instead of base 10, that worked out. Base 60 basically means that your basic unit for measurement and mathematics is 60. So the residue of that in our modern world is there's 60 seconds in a minute and 60 minutes in an hour.

[B]

Yep. Which seems to be, based on the shape of the human hand, 24 hours.

[A]

This comes from this. This is one of the things that's left over from that old Babylonian base 60 math. Now, that said they've tried base 60 math with Genesis, it doesn't work out. So we're still not sure, but there's hints. So like enoch is the seventh from Adam in the Genesis genealogy. St. Jude points that out in the New Testament. He says, enoch the seventh from Adam. And if you go to the seventh person in the Sumerian kings list, the seventh person in the Sumerian kings list created the solar calendar.

Of 365 days. And if you go look at Enoch in Genesis, it says he lived 365 years.

So there's these hints that there's this kind of code happening in Genesis. Right. Like, like with the years. So there's something to that. Just different scholars have all different theories, and nobody's put out a theory yet where everybody's kind of looked at it and said, oh yeah, that's got to be it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That checks out.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Yeah, but so there is something going on there.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And yeah, in terms of dates. Right. Like I said, I'm not interested in having a bunch of arguments with people about it. Like you said, you're fine, whatever. Right. But it is interesting to note that according to some recent journal articles over the last few years in Nature magazine.

Homo sapiens and 90% of the other species of animals alive today suddenly show up in the fossil record 250,000 years ago. And if you look at the Sumerian kings list. It says that the kingship came down from heaven 250,000 years ago.

[C]

Oh, my. You see? So that's. So that's. That always. That leads me to the thought when my buddy's asking me, did Genesis really happen? And all it's like, yes, it actually happened. It's just the story's a lot older than you're. Like, this is how I feel. The story's a lot older than you're giving it.

[A]

We need to learn how to interpret and understand what it's saying.

[B]

Right. The language that it's written in. And I don't just mean Hebrew, but the way that it communicates is not the way that we communicate, you know, so. So that's part of the problem is, is when we take a modern sensibility and try to put it on ancient, ancient texts, and we want it to, like, line up according to our understanding. And if it doesn't line up according to our modern understanding, then we say, well, that didn't happen or it's not true.

The way in which it's true and the way in which it happened is being communicated in ways that we no longer use. And so that's part of, you know, frankly, that's a lot of what we're trying to do on the show is to recover, as much as we can, some of those sensibilities, you know, from. From the past. We can't, you know, we can't flip a switch and think like a, you know, someone from 2000 BC. But we can at least get a better sense of it, you know, on some level, to figure out what's going on there and understand it a little bit better, you know. So, yeah, hope that helps. Thank you very much for calling, Alfonso.

[C]

I really appreciate you guys. I'm not. I'm. I'm a first ever comrade in my family to this, and everyone spoke Catholic from where I'm coming from, so I'm not. I'm learning as I go over these last four years, and I don't know if there's any American saints, but I'm almost. I know for a fact there will be.

[B]

So there are American Orthodox. There are American Orthodox saints. There are several already, absolutely.

[C]

Okay, I'll look into that. I appreciate it very much.

[B]

You're welcome. All right, God bless you. Okay, we're going to take one more call, and then we're going to go to our second break. And our next call is from Nicholas in Boston. Again, someone from the truly Yankee area. Nicholas, welcome to Laura Spirits Podcast.

[C]

Thank you, Father. Thanks for having me on. My question is, on my way to work, every day, I pass two. They call them botanica shops, but they're.

Afro Caribbean witch doctor huts.

Storefronts. And they've got all the candles with.

Icons of saints on them and big icons of the Theotokos on their windows, and they do all sorts of rituals in there and they sell all sorts of witch doctor stuff. And I'm wondering why the saints put up with their images being used in the syncretic way to worship West African gods, like the Yoruba gods, why they don't do something about that.

[B]

I mean, there's a lot of blasphemy going on all the time. You know, why does God permit it?

I mean, number one, it doesn't harm God and it doesn't harm the saints that that is going on. Like, it doesn't hurt them because it can't.

But I mean, ultimately, it's the same reason that any of us are allowed to sin at all. Right. Is that that out of love for us, God permits us to have free will. He permits us to do basically what we want to do. I mean, within certain limits.

[C]

I don't mean why does he let people do that? I mean, why does he let the demons use that stuff?

[B]

I mean, the demons have always used images that are from God's creation.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Like. Like there's, you know, the earliest idols, as far as we know, were shaped like bulls. Well, God created bulls.

You know.

I mean, there certainly have been cases where. Where saints have broken in and, you know, have taken care of something. But that was for the. It was for the sake of the salvation, the people involved, you know.

[C]

Right. Which is what I'm concerned with.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, so say a prayer as you go by doing. Yeah, say a prayer as you go by so far. Yeah.

[C]

Is there anything more we can be doing in our culture to be sort of combating this demon worship?

[B]

Venerate the saints better. Like, show what they're really for, you know, how you really have a relationship with them, you know, and that manifests as much more attractive to people, actually, than this kind of manipulative. I don't know. You were about to say something, Father, I heard you say.

[A]

And I think we also underestimate the.

The power of God in some of these things in the sense that. So I remember I was. This is many years ago now, but I was. I was on my way to church and I stopped to get gas. While I was pumping gas, there was A copy of the Watchtower.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Sitting on. On top of the gas pump. So while the gas is pumping, I was flipping through and when I picked it up and looked at it on the COVID it was. They're talking about icons, like Orthodox icons.

[B]

For anybody who doesn't know, the Watchtower is Jehovah's Witness publication.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, the actual name of the Jehovah's Witnesses is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

[B]

Exactly. Yes.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So you know, now, oh, they're talking about Orthodox icons. Now I'm interested. Right. So I start flipping through and the main article is, Yeshua Othshar was telling Jehovah's Witnesses, do not buy Orthodox icons. If someone gives it to you as a gift, do not have it in your house. If someone you talk to to try to witness to, as Jehovah's Witness tries to give you one, do not take it, because if you have it in your house, it will destroy your Jehovah's Witness faith.

[C]

I mean, that's pretty basic Protestant theology about any images.

[A]

Right, but it's also acknowledging the power of that icon.

[C]

Yes, but they think it's a demonic power. Like why?

[A]

I know they do. I know they do. I know they do. But think about the person who does accept what is a gift and it destroys their Jehovah's Witness faith.

[C]

Right?

[A]

So my point being, who knows what God will do? Maybe some of these people having images of saints in their home.

Some of those people, something will click with them at some point and they'll start trying to find out about that real saint.

Or through their warped demonic interaction with that saint, something real will happen. And they'll end up coming around and getting away from that pagan practice and coming to.

Christianity. Who knows, right? But God can do that kind of thing.

Despite. Despite us.

[C]

And I guess it's better than having an over sexualized, like, Venus figure, right?

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

I mean, if the Mormons, in addition to handing out the Book of Mormon, if they hand out a King James Bible, hey, maybe somebody gets that King James Bible and they don't become a Mormon. They become, you know, something.

[C]

Okay, thank you, Father. That helps.

[B]

All right, thanks for calling, Nicholas. Okay, we're going to go ahead and take our second break and we'll be right back on this whole all live Q and A episode of Lord Spirits podcast.

[A]

Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment to take your calls on the next part of the Lord of Spirits. Give them a call at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-ADIO.

[C]

This March. Join us for the 31 books of March sale event at Ancient Faith Store. In celebration of 10th anniversary, we're offering a large selection of books at 50% off every day from March 1 through March 31.

[B]

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[C]

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[B]

And more, all at a discounted price.

[A]

You'll also find children's books and titles by popular podcasters and hosts from Ancient Faith Radio.

[B]

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[C]

31 books of March.

[A]

We're back now with the Lord of Spirits with Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 855-23723.

That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[B]

Hey, welcome back. That was the voice of Trudy, everybody. For those of you haven't had the chance to talk to her on the phone. That was the place.

[A]

I liked the sprightly public domain background music.

[B]

Isn't that great?

[A]

It sounded like you something you'd see in a commercial for Cadbury creme eggs when the the rabbit is like hopping across the screen.

[B]

Wow, that's wholesome. That's the most wholesome thing I've ever heard you say. Probably. Yeah. And I should say since I am the Stan Lee of orthodoxy on the Internet, that 31 books of March thing today, actually, one of my books is available for 50% off. So if you go to the website, you can get orthodoxy and heterodoxy for 50% off. So come on, kids, go buy some books.

Yes, we are taking calls, lots and lots of calls. And that's all we're doing tonight. And we have Andy calling from. Well, his phone says he's in Richardson, Texas. So, Andy, welcome to the Lord of Spirits podcast.

[C]

Hello, fathers, can you hear me?

[B]

We hear you. What is up?

[C]

I am, yeah, I'm in Richardson. I am an Anglican cleric whose name is Andy and is in Texas. So we've had a few different tags for that this evening. So I thought I'd call it.

[B]

I don't know what to say.

[C]

Hat trick.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[C]

So what I wanted to ask you is as I'm currently a deacon, I'm recently been.

Cleared to be ordained a priest. And, you know, I was wondering if you had any practical advice.

For how to learn how to pray as a priest and to foster a kind of life of prayer that will sustain you in ministry. Of course, you know, different denominations and all that, but you know, of your charity setting that aside, you know how to pray well, how to love Jesus well and let that fuel serving him.

[B]

I mean, you know, there's a whole big pile of our listeners right now who are like, you know what you should say to that guy? Here's how you pray. Oh Lord, please make me an orthodox Christian.

[A]

I'm just wondering why he called to ask the rage filled video game streamer this question.

[B]

I know.

[C]

Oh man.

[B]

I mean, I.

Mean I can talk about my own personal experience. That's what I'll talk about. I think.

It depends a lot on your, on a lot of factors in your life. Right? Like so, like if you're married and you have kids, what your daily prayer is going to look like as a priest is going to be different than if you don't. What if you're not married and if you don't have kids.

You know, just because that's the reality. If, if you are married and you have kids, then your task is, among other things, to lead them in prayer, you know, you know, I'm, I'm not just like, I'm not just a priest, I'm the priest of my home. And I try, you know, I don't always succeed. Every morning, I'll be honest. And part of that is because I have to stay up late talking to the swamp ogre sometimes. But I try to get up every morning and pray morning prayers with my kids before the ones who go to school, before they go to school.

Because they need to not just be told that this is what you're supposed to do. They need to be shown this is how you do it. Because Christianity is a whole lot of how to.

But also I think that.

You know, like in, like for instance in the, the, the, the again, you know, mutatis mutandis. Right. I'm not telling people they should be Anglicans, but I, I love and respect my Anglican friends. Absolutely. But I mean, you guys have a whole, you know, Book of Common Prayer tradition, which has a whole set of things that you should be doing every day. Right. I don't know if there's like specific commandments to priests about, you know, using the office or whatever, but at least what I know of it is that like I wouldn't personally find it objectionable. I mean most of it's just psalms and stuff. And I mean that's perfectly, absolutely great.

So you know, I mean, I think especially for. For priests who are serving in parishes or have any kind of, you know, active life where they're not living in a monastery or something like that.

Just to set up some kind of discipline that you can always do and be ready to make adjustments as needed for the other humans that are in your life, because, you know, you're ultimately there to serve them and not to say, no, this is my rule. You know, that's. That's been my experience, is I've had to learn to be merciful.

Both to the people around me and sometimes to myself.

When my idea of what Christianity is is about following a specific rule. That said, I mean, discipline is really important, but discipline has an object and it's not itself. You know, the point of being disciplined is not to be disciplined. The point of being disciplined is to love God and to love your neighbor. You know, So, I mean, that's what I would say about that. I don't know. Father, do you want to do some imprecatory psalms or something right now or.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You asked the wrong guy.

No, I will, actually, Father Andrew, right there at the end. I do think part of the purpose of being disciplined is just to be disciplined.

[B]

Right. I mean, it's a virtue in itself.

[A]

Yeah, right. Self control, self mastery, broadly applied as a Christian virtue. So. Right, yeah. So that's what I tell people. They say things like, you know, the Orthodox fasting rules seem kind of arbitrary. For example, it's like, okay, well, let's just say for the sake of argument, they are following a completely arbitrary rule in a disciplined way. Could still teach you something and could still.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

The only thing I have to say, really, about Prague as a priest is.

And this is an encouragement for something that will probably happen to you, that happened to me. And most of the other priests I've talked to have had this happen to them.

[C]

So.

[A]

And that's when you're first ordained and you're first serving, you're not going to be doing much praying.

There's going to be a period of time where you're super focused on performance.

When you're celebrating services, like doing the right thing at the right time and not missing cues and like.

Everything going correctly and what am I forgetting? And, oh, no, is this ready and.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that's just going to happen. You're not going to be able to not have that happen to you the first several times. Right.

And in the midst of that, you're going to be focused on kind of everything but God and you're going to feel bad about that because you're supposed to be a priest and you're celebrating divine services and you're not thinking about God, you're thinking about which way I turn this time.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it is prayer.

[A]

It happens. It happens to all of us. Yeah, right. We all go through it. And you will get to the point, you'll get to a point where it's not going to be. Hopefully it won't be comfortable. So you take it flippantly, but where you will have the performance elements of it down enough that you can go back to focusing your mind on prayer and that kind of thing.

And I even. It took me about, I think, the first time this happened. I had been a priest for like 13 years. The first time I was celebrating a liturgy and kind of got into a flow state.

But that kind of stuff takes a long time.

And it's okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And accept that. And just accept that there's a period of time.

Like I've said many times on the show, sincerity isn't worth all that much.

[C]

Right.

[A]

You do your best and you learn the things and you get the performance out because the. Again, the bodily performance is not unimportant.

And there's going to be a period where that's going to be all you can focus on. But you'll get past, you'll move past that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And get back to something resembling it. And then the other thing that'll happen to you and this other priest have verified to me too, is you'll get to a point where when you're not the one celebrating and you're at a worship service, you kind of won't know what to do with yourself anymore.

[B]

What do I do with my hands?

[A]

Yeah. It's sort of like, I know I was a bachelor for like 33 years and I clothed and fed myself and got places on time. Right. But now that I've been married for a long time, like, if she goes away, I'm like doomed. Like. Like I don't know what to do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's the same kind of thing. Like, I went to church and worshiped and was not celebrating. Right. For years. But like, that skill is now gone. So that'll happen to you too. You kind of won't know what to do with yourself. You'll find yourself volunteering to serve when you don't need to, just so you'll know what to do with yourself.

[B]

There you go.

[C]

Fair enough.

[A]

There's some inside football for the non priests. Out there.

[C]

Yeah, it's true.

[B]

That's true.

[C]

Well, thank you, fathers. You know, you're welcome. I appreciate the advice and I appreciate your ministry as well.

[B]

Thank God. Thank God. Thanks very much for calling. Okay, we have another Texan. We have Eddie. So Eddie, welcome. Andy and then Eddie. Andy and Eddie. I don't know.

[C]

In both of Texas.

[B]

Yes. What's up with that?

[C]

Well, first off, I want to give a very, very great thanks to God because I called about 20 times trying to get through to ask this question. You made it through. Yes. And I respect both of you guys. I own a bunch of your books, each one of you. So I've got a heart, I think, maybe a hard one.

[B]

And I have to say, by the way, Eddie, that, like, right now I'm looking at the call board and you are the only one there, which means that no one else is calling, which means I might get to go to bed, like, moderately on time tonight. So don't let.

[A]

Don't let it happen.

[C]

There's no one else on there.

I can ask multiple. Maybe I can ask multiple questions at.

[B]

Some point, though, you know, we'll. You know, we'll have to take. We'll have to cut. Shut you down.

[A]

He will turn into a pumpkin at a certain point.

[C]

Well, here's my. Here's my big question.

[B]

Okay, the big question.

[C]

Jesus. Jesus says, in order for the Holy Spirit to come or the Paraclete to come, I must go, right? So it sounds like he cannot be in the picture, but at the baptism, the Holy Spirit and the voice of God and Jesus were all three present. But the way he says it is like, almost like he has to be gone in order for the Holy Spirit to come. And I was wondering what is the Eastern Orthodox position on why that has to be.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, well, for one thing, like, at the. At the baptism of Christ, the Holy Spirit alighting on him, he's not coming at that point in the way that he does on Pentecost. I mean, that's pretty clear, right?

So obviously Christ is referring to that. He's referring to Pentecost, not to some kind of presence of the Holy Spirit, which obviously the Holy Spirit's been present in one way or another for the whole history of humanity, but not being poured out in the way that he's poured out on Pentecost.

I don't know, Father. I mean, I could speculate here. I mean, he certainly. He talks about sending the Spirit and so forth, but what's going on in terms of the sort of sequence of events. I don't know if that's right.

[A]

So the issue here kind of stems from the fact that we've been fed kind of a really watered down version of the Ascension.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

This was an Episcopalian church, and everyone is identified as Anglican thus far, so they can just point at them and say it's not them. But I know of an Episcopalian church where on Ascension Day, they go outside and release balloons.

And sing up, up and away in my beautiful balloon.

[B]

Although I have to say, this does remind me, like, one of my favorite kinds of religious humor videos is. And I don't know, maybe this just says something bad about me, but, like, there's a thing that people do at funerals now where they will, like, release doves. But what's great is that some of these videos, some of the doves just, let's just say, didn't make it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When they toss them.

[A]

I don't know why I love that so much. Maybe it's bad, but I just super do anyway. You also have to be careful with the 21 gun salute, but.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah, but so we've gotten this kind of. Yeah. Watered it. This is the day where Jesus flew up into the sky. Right. He goes back home or he went away.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Yeah, he went away somewhere. Right. Which obviously isn't what we believe. We say all the time Christ is in our midst.

[B]

And I think it's worth pointing out here, maybe you were going to. But I'll just get this in. In Orthodox iconography, icons of the Ascension, the pose that Jesus is in is not the up, up and away pose, which, frankly, in some Western depictions of the Ascension, he is like. He's in the flying pose, you know.

[A]

One launching off the one foot.

[B]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Whereas in Orthodox iconography, he's seated. He's seated in the. In the. Among the clouds.

[A]

That's where this is going. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the idea right here. And it's a cloud because we're called back to Daniel. Right. The Ascension is the feast of the enthronement of the Son of Man. It's a feast of the enthronement of Christ.

As the Messiah, as the Lord.

And so Christ is enthroned in the heavens on that day. And then because he is enthroned now, the Messianic age begins.

And if you go back to Joel and you go back to Ezekiel.

The mark Joel is the passage that gets quoted by St. Peter.

[B]

Right.

[A]

On Pentecost, talks about in those last days in the Messianic age, then the Holy Spirit will be poured forth on all flesh.

Right? Because Christ will have finished his work.

His work of atonement, his work of recreation, and he'll be enthroned, just as God was enthroned on the seventh day of creation. And that then opens the way for the Holy Spirit to be poured forth on all flesh. So what he's saying in St. John's gospel is I need to go and be enthroned. Right? We need to move into this next phase. I can't stay with you the way I am here with you now forever, right? That would not be good. It will be better for me to complete what I am doing and then move into this new phase.

[C]

Okay. And can I have a follow up question?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, go for it.

[C]

Okay. Yeah. And so in, in the Greek, does it sound like it? Because when I read it in the translation, it seems like it. When he's saying that it's an either or proposition. Like you either get Jesus and maybe not. I hope I don't sound foolish when I say this, but you get Jesus, which will say is like God concentrated on earth, or you get like the Holy Spirit, which is spread out everywhere and it sounds like it's an either or proposition. Is that.

[A]

Yeah. No, that's not really. So Christ is, He says, it is good for you that I go, right? And that it is good language. He's echoing from Genesis.

[C]

Right?

[A]

He's echoing from, from back in Genesis. This is good or man be alone. It is not good that man be alone. It is not good that man should live forever in this state. It is good. It is not good. And so he says to them, I see that you are afraid. You are worried that I am going away. Meaning he is going to die. That's what the disciples were thinking at that moment. And St. John's goes, this is right before he's arrested.

I'm going to die. I'm going to go away. You're sad. You shouldn't be sad. Because when I go away, when I go and I am enthroned, when I complete this work that's here among you, right, then this new phase begins. Then the messianic age begins, right? And that's, that's better than just, you know, the 12 of you walking across the Galilean countryside with me.

[B]

Right?

[A]

That, that is, you will be at a better place. I know right now you don't want to lose what we have, but there is something better coming when this, when this ends. Right?

[B]

Yeah. Does that make sense, Eddie?

[C]

Yeah. It does, it does. All right, is there anything else on the caller now?

[B]

We've got some more actually lined up now, so.

[C]

Oh, okay. I will let you go then. I appreciate the phone call. I very much appreciate it.

[B]

Absolutely. Thanks very much for calling. Okay.

[A]

You know what they say, Father Andrew. Ain't no rest for the wicked.

[B]

I know, I know.

[A]

Money don't grow on trees.

[B]

I got. I got so close. I was about ready to go home, but nope, nope, nope.

[A]

Every time you try to get out, they pull you back in.

[B]

They pull me back in. That's right. So we've got Christy calling from Ocala, Florida. So, Christy, welcome to the Lord of Spirits podcast.

[C]

Hi, good evening. Thank you so much for taking my call and you're welcome. Kind of sorry. Kind of sorry, but not. Sorry for keeping you up late, Father. I know you wanted to get out of bed, but why not?

[B]

Sorry, not sorry.

[A]

It's not that late. It's 9 o'. Clock.

[B]

It might be slightly joking. Slightly?

[A]

You're not 70 years old. You could stay up past nine, man. Seriously.

[C]

No, but I get. He wanted to be done for the day, but I just, you know, when I heard there were no other callers, I'm like, this is my chance.

[B]

So this is your chance.

[C]

So thank you.

[B]

Are you actually in Florida?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Have you. Have you ever seen Florida Man? I mean, I've read about him a lot.

Oh, you know what I'm talking about, Florida Man.

[C]

No, I've heard of him, but.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you have to Google this. Look up, like, go to a news aggregator like Google News or whatever, and type in Florida man and just see what all kinds of weird, weird stuff pops up. Okay, I'm just throwing that out there for everybody. So what's your question, Christine?

[C]

Deep dive. Well, thank you for that suggestion.

[B]

Don't do that right now.

[A]

It'll weird you out.

[B]

But, yeah, after we're off the phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So what's up?

[C]

Thank you. So I'm a Roman Catholic, but I love the Orthodox Church. My father converted to Greek Orthodoxy. You know, I'm not a theologian, or do I have to be? I'm just a layperson. And my priority should be the salvation of my family soul and my soul. So with that as a priority, you know, I need truth, and I find it in the Orthodox Church and I find it in the pre conciliar Catholic Church. I believe both are part of the, you know, basically the same church, and that the sacraments are valid in both, you know, the Novus Ordo. It's, you know, obviously very corrupted by Protestantism, and there are many devotions and Marian apparitions that are clearly fake, that, you know, the current church, you know, says it's worthy of belief, although we don't have to believe in private revelation.

I only believe that three Marian apparitions are real. Again, albeit we don't need to believe in private revelation. But one of those three is the apparitions and the messages of Fatima. And as a response to something I heard, I think, Father Stephen say on a previous podcast about that, about the errors of Russia and Russia will be converted. The message itself is really profound. Once you really get into the roots of Bolshevism and how it's very much still alive and well in the world today under a different name or an unnamed title. But.

The errors are here and they have spread. But when the Blessed Virgin Mary said, russia will be converted, he didn't say Russia would be converted to Catholicism. He just said Russia would be converted. I personally see that Russia was converted. Russia was converted to. My goodness, they were under, you know, communism. It was terrible. And then to see the revival of the Orthodox Church in Russia was. I mean, it gives me goosebumps to think about it. I mean, I don't understand why. I mean, am I wrong to feel that way? No one else, you know, Catholic or otherwise, seemed to feel that Russia was converted, although they clearly are.

You know, I don't know. So I guess I'm asking. It's not a question, but asking for your thoughts on how I feel about help. Both sacraments are valid in both churches. And, you know, I don't know, just.

Thinking, maybe put some thought into. Was Russia converted? Russia did convert to Orthodox Christianity.

[B]

Wow, thank you. So some of this is really sticky at this moment in history.

[A]

I'll unstick it.

[B]

Yeah. Well, let me say a couple things before you go, before you just put your big foot in full in the thumbs up.

I mean, number one, okay, so converting to Orthodox Christianity, in terms of Russian history.

I mean, that happens a thousand years ago.

Right?

[C]

Right.

[B]

So, you know, I mean, it begins a thousand years ago, really. I should say it begins a thousand years ago. So it's not like there was this 20th century event, you know, where Russia converted to Orthodox Christianity.

It is true that there has been revival in the sense of.

I mean, certainly many, many, many churches have been built or rebuilt. You know, monasteries have been re. Have been revived.

Many, many people have gotten baptized. Like, a lot of this stuff has happened in the wake of the Fall of the Soviet Union.

That said, and I haven't looked this up in a little while, but, like, other indicators, like, for instance, just attending church, it is a very low percentage right now in Russia. Like, it's. It's in the single digits. Last I checked.

So many, many people baptize, and then that's kind of like, in many cases, the last time they go to church or, you know, just once in a very great while.

So, like, is it a Christian nation? I mean, I know people who will absolutely, like, they'll wave flags and so forth, but, like, I don't know. It's kind of a problematic moment to ask, is Russia converted to Orthodox Christianity.

In that sense?

But.

I. I don't. I'll just say this. I don't think that that's the most important question, honestly. Right. I mean, number one, I have zero investment in whether or not the. The stuff coming out of Fatima is true or not. Like, it doesn't matter to me. You know, I have nothing that hangs on that because I'm not a Roman Catholic. So, you know, the idea that Russia is consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, which is, you know, central to that particular piece of it, would probably sound really deeply weird to most Russians, including the most pious ones. You know, they were probably like, what is that all about? We don't have a devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, you know, like, that's not part of their religious world. It's just not, you know. You know. So to me, the question is not did it. You know, like.

The. The. It's not a. This idea of a Christian nation, I think, is problematic by itself. That's. That's the point that I'm trying to make.

And I also think, honestly and with the utmost respect to my Russian Orthodox friends, and I have plenty of them, I think that the ones who take a serious, sober look at Russia would not say that it is a place that is, you know, that is anywhere near as pious as it could be. You know, that's just the reality.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I don't know anyone in Russia. Just, you know, from what I see on.

[B]

Yeah, I know a number of Russians, and I know a lot of people in Eastern Europe who are up close and personal with, you know, with that world on the ground in a way that people in America, frankly, are not.

So, you know, to me, it's, you know, it's like, well, so who is actually following Christ? That's the question. Who's actually following Christ? And it's Clear to me that some Russians are. And that some Russians are definitely not, you know. So in any event, I do know. I mean, like, what Father Stephen said about the idea that, you know, Russia would be converted to Catholicism. It's true that that is not in the wording of. Of what was said by Sister Lucia or Lucha or however you're supposed to be pronounced. I don't know. You know, it's the idea that Russia will be converted.

And, you know, not necessarily will be converted to Roman Catholicism, but a lot of people have interpreted it that way, you know.

And. But again, like, this idea of being consecrated to her Immaculate Heart, I don't know where you would find that in Russia except amongst the little handful of, you know, the small handful of Russians who are Catholics who might have that devotion. But most Russians absolutely would not. Absolutely would not. It's just foreign to Orthodox, you know, piety.

So, yeah, I don't know. I mean, again, I have nothing hanging on whether those things are actually real prophecies or not. And I do know also that Fatima is very controversial within the Roman Catholic Church, you know.

So y' all have to work that out.

[C]

I don't either. Yeah, it's private revelation, so. But I. I guess I'm a little disappointed to hear that because I was kind of thinking that Russia was, I guess, more developed than it appears to be on social media, I guess.

[B]

So, like. Like, you see pictures of full churches, and that's great. Right. But if you actually look at the numbers of people who are going to church, it is a minority. It is definitely a minority. So full churches means that there's actually not enough churches, you know.

[C]

Well, that's kind of. That's what's happening. I feel like it's that way here.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, Americans actually go to church way more than Russians do. That is definitely known, for sure. Americans go to church way more than Russians do. In terms of church attendance, the most Orthodox country in the world, from the best my understanding, is Romania. Romania is the most Orthodox country in the world where I think church attendance is like, in the 40% for weekly attendance. I mean, that's pretty good. Obviously, I Wish it was 100%.

But in terms of comparative churchgoing, that's fairly good.

But. Yeah. Anyway. Okay, Father Stephen, I know you wanted to just to say something or whatever, offend everyone.

[A]

No.

[B]

If I haven't offended everybody already. But I'm just. I'm. Honestly, I'm just, you know, to me, it's about following Christ, not about, you know, I got a Couple things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So on the one score. Yeah. It's not. It's not in the word of hat of it, but as you mentioned, lots of people interpret it that way.

And I think that reflects what you call or have experienced in the sense that most Roman Catholics wouldn't point at the revival of Christianity post Communism and say, that's the fulfillment of the prophecy of Fatima.

I dare say, yeah.

[C]

No, they don't. I just.

[A]

I mean, I'm not going to argue with you about it. You want to see it that way, great.

But I don't think that's the way most Roman Catholic. Most Roman Catholics, I think, are interpreting that as them becoming Roman Catholics or the Russian Orthodox Church coming back into the Roman Catholic communion. Maybe some form of that. Right? Maybe.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So the. And this gets to a bigger thing in terms of your call in general. Right. That I'll reiterate, I say. But I don't say it enough because I know the last time we did a call in and we got a call about Roman Catholicism and what's keeping us from getting back together. And my answer, like, ticked off a lot of our Roman Catholic listeners.

And.

I don't apologize for it because I don't think I said anything that wasn't true. In fact, I think the fact that a lot of what I said was true is what ticked them off.

Because even you've made some comments in your call about dissatisfaction with the Novus Ordo and stuff. That's basically the stuff I was talking about.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. So.

[B]

But when.

[A]

When I'm criticizing this stuff, I'm. I'm criticizing ideas.

I have a policy. I know it's been a long time since I said this on the show, that we should be compassionate to people and absolutely ruthless with ideas.

[B]

Amen.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So bad idea, destroy it. Right person, do not destroy them.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And what to me makes a bad idea, because as we've said on the show before, ideas are tools. Right? So when there are ideas that people are using on themselves or that other people are using on them that are hurting them or making it more difficult for them to find salvation, those kind of things, those are the ideas that I want to attack.

Exhibit A is why I go after Calvinism so much. As I've said before publicly. Right. I grew up around Calvinists in a Dutch community. I've been with them while they're dying. I've seen what it does to them and their sense of spirituality and lack of assurance and all kinds of things that have gotten twisted up. Right. And so that's why I go after those ideas. Now, if you're a Presbyterian and you're happy and well adjusted and being faithful to God and stuff.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You probably don't care what I have to say.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But also. Okay, then. Right. Don't get offended by me critiquing those ideas. If those aren't ideas that you hold.

Right. If you hold to some different version of Calvinism or some different version of the thing that I'm not criticizing, then I'm not criticizing it. Right. And so the same is true when I'm saying something critical of Roman Catholicism. I'm in a situation right now where Lafayette, Louisiana is, where I'm a priest, is hypothetically 70% Roman Catholic. Now, much like Father Andrew described in Russia, you are not going to find like 120,000 people in mass every week here.

That's not a thing that's going to happen.

They were baptized Roman Catholic at some point.

But the Roman Catholic Church here in southern Louisiana is deeply embedded in the cultural life and city life and political life.

And so I see with the local archbishops, of the local clergy, the way they interact with their people, the way traditional things are shut down in parishes here, and other things that are not so great are promoted here by the bishop and things. Right. When I see those things happening, that. That inspires me to want to go after those bad ideas.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And. And that's what inspires me to want to invite those people who are Roman Catholics to become part of the Orthodox Church. And it's not. My team's better than your team.

It's not all this. It's. These people are suffering for various reasons, and I want them to draw closer to Christ. And so I'm going to go after those bad ideas and try to present them some better ideas of how we do things here at my little parish in Lafayette. Right. And maybe you come here, this would be a better environment for you to sort of work out your faith as a person, because that's the person is who I care about.

[C]

Right. It's about the truth and the salvation of.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Like, I need, as a layperson, I need to be concerned about the salvation of my family souls, about my kids, my own soul. And. And yeah, I mean, of course. I mean, I'm so disappointed with, you know, I'll call it. I hate to get political about it, but yeah. So when I do go to church, I go to an SSPX parish, you know, Lefebvre.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Paris. But, you know, that's a long drive And, And I love it. And, you know, my father converted to Greek Orthodoxy, and. But he lives in South Florida, and, oh, my goodness. I just, I, I love. I. I love his parish, and I love the Divine Liturgy, but I also love the traditional Mass and the SSPX church. I will never forget during COVID when everyone was shutting down, including my father's Greek Orthodox parish, the SSPX stayed open, and the Father prior was saying, if only everyone would be as concerned about the health of their souls as they are concerned about the health of their bodies right now. You know, we're freaking out over Covid and churches closing down and people not going to church. And, like, that's what I love to hear. Meanwhile, you know, and then there's. There's, you know, like, so much, you know, the political discord between, you know, the. The Traditionalists and the Novus Order. I mean, obviously there are so many problems in the Novus Ordo. It's like, you know, I can't even defend it. There's no defending it whatsoever. So I just need. I just need to save my soul. And what is. What is at church? I guess the biggest thing is I. Valid sacraments. I mean, I love the Orthodox Church, but I also love the SSPX church. I'm kind of torn.

I don't know.

[B]

You know, I said just the other day, I was talking to a Catholic, a Catholic convert, actually, and I said, I'm going to say something very cynical to you, but I think it's worth at least thinking about. I'm going to say this to you too, Christy.

You know, from a Roman Catholic point of view, officially the official Roman Catholic point of view, the Orthodox Church has everything needed for salvation, and the Roman Catholic Church has everything needed for salvation. Right. So from the official magisterial Roman Catholic point of view, you can be saved as an Orthodox Christian.

And from the Orthodox point of view, we would not put it that way. I'll just put it that way. We would not say, of course not.

[A]

That no one who's a Roman Catholic is saved.

[B]

Right. We're not saying that, but we're not saying we put our stamp of approval on Roman Catholicism in the way that Roman Catholicism, frankly, does with us.

[A]

Well, sometimes.

[B]

Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When they're not anesthetizing us for rejecting people and fall apart from. Yeah, that's the problem. But I mean, the most recent thing they're saying is pretty favorable. So I'm just saying, like, if you're going to do a bit of a Pascal's wager between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I mean, you should pick Orthodox because.

[A]

Catholics and Orthodox both agree that you.

[B]

Can be saved as an Orthodox Christian. Christians. So I've just put that out there for you, Christy. But I hear, I mean, I, I, yeah, I hear your, I mean, I, I, I, I hear your concerns and clearly your love for Christ and, and that that's the reason that you're frustrated with some things that's obvious to me. And, and that's very, you know, that's very moving. So I'm not, I'm not just, I'm not trying to be crass, but, you know.

[C]

No, no, not at all. Thank you for talking to me long and, and, no, I just, I just want the truth. I just want the truth. I just want to be God. And I'm not going to get there in a Novus Ordo search, but I love my sspx. Well, it's not mine because it, I don't go there that often because it's a far drive. But, yeah, I mean, currently, I'm kind of torn. And I guess it doesn't have to do so much with my question, other than I do believe, you know, like I said, both are valid sacraments. And you did bring up a good point. I mean, the spiritual economy in the Orthodox Church, I mean, compared to the Novus Ordo, is, of course, much greater, for sure. There's no doubt about it. I just, I don't know. Yes. You know, thank you so much for, you know, entertaining my question, and.

[B]

You're welcome.

[C]

I love, I just, you know, I recently discovered, you know, Ancient Faith and.

Your podcast and Dr. Jeanne Constantino's podcast, and I'm learning so much. I've already ordered some of your books that I'm so looking forward to reading because you've, I've, of course, I can't even remember what they are right now. They, it escapes me, but you've answered so many questions I've had from, you know, years back just in these recent podcasts that I've been watching on Ancient Faith. And like I said, I've got, I ordered a bunch of books, but it's, you know, so many books, so little time. I just, I really appreciate everything that you're doing, and I just, I love it so much. Thank you, thank you very.

[B]

Thank you, Christy. Thanks for calling. All right.

[A]

We're sort of, if you take all the Roman Catholic pronouncements about the Orthodox Church, we're sort of Schrodinger's Church. Like, we exist. We don't exist. We're really part of the Catholic Church. We're not part of the Catholic Church.

[B]

I know.

[A]

We're schismatics. We aren't like. It's all at the same time.

[B]

Yeah. I like to say that I do have the temerity to deny the infallibility and the supremacy of the Roman Pope, which, I mean, that puts me under anathema. Yeah.

Okay, we've got Daniel calling from.

[A]

Being anathema isn't so bad.

[B]

It's not so bad. Yeah, it's not so bad. Daniel calling from the City of Angels out there on the. The other coast.

[C]

Well, no, so it's actually Hollywood, Florida.

[B]

Oh, I am.

[C]

I am a man in Florida.

[B]

Oh, but your phone is Los Angeles.

[C]

Yeah, no, my phone is from Los Angeles, but yeah, no, I'm out here in Florida. All right. Thank you for taking my call.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Appreciate it. Listening. Pretty long time listener anyway. But yeah, so this question will probably be more for Father Stephen, and I can give a little background.

[B]

I'll take a little break.

[A]

Is it about Marvel Rivals? Is that why?

[C]

Well, no. Okay.

[A]

But Twin Peaks.

[C]

So it should be.

I grew up processing. I met my wife in Los Angeles. She grew up Jewish and is Jewish, obviously.

And.

We got married and.

That went well. And then.

[B]

Yay.

[C]

Yeah. Right. And then, so around maybe like two years ago at this point, she has come to put her faith in Jesus. Pretty shocking to me. Was awesome. And then around that time, or maybe a little bit after that, so we found our way last Pascha into the Orthodox Church. We are now Eastern Orthodox.

So that's awesome.

And so my question, the reason this goes to Father Stephen is because I've listened to him on different podcasts and I mean, most recent was it. Most recently, it wasn't that recent. But you're on Jonathan Peugeot.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And you kind of talked, you were talking about your new book, and I've heard you say about, you know, like.

Kind of like in the way that you are called, whether you're called as a Jewish person or whether you're called as a gentile person, it's being faithful to that calling.

And so.

The interesting thing for me and us in this at this point is that so we have two daughters, obviously, if any listeners don't know when the mother is Jewish, the kids are Jewish.

[A]

Jewish, yeah.

[C]

Yes. So having daughters, I was like, okay, I don't have to worry about.

I don't have to worry about a breit and what am I going to do for this? But now we're actually Due in July with a sun.

And so you probably see where this is going.

Obviously there's an expectation potentially.

But I can more generalize this question. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So on Jonathan Peugeot, you said, Jonathan Peugeot asked you this very, this very question. He said if you had.

Or maybe, maybe you put the scenario out there. He put it out there to you, but you said if you had an Eastern Orthodox couple who was going to circumcise their son, and one of them was Jewish, so the mother's Jewish, you would ask them, why. Why are you going to do that? And.

So my more general question is, you said.

There'S a difference between. This is how I become a child of Abraham is through circumcision versus we know it's from faith.

Something to that effect. Was that right?

[A]

Something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Okay. Something like that. So my question is really.

When you are a child of Abraham via the flesh, so to speak, like, as in you are Jewish, like my, like, my daughters are Jewish according to, like, Jewish law, my son will be Jewish according to Jewish law whether he gets circumcised or not. Right.

But.

So with these things that were given to Abraham, like, every male in your household will be circumcised.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And I really.

[A]

And presumably you have not been religiously circumcised. I don't need to know the other medically, but I'm American. Religious service.

[C]

Yeah, I am American, Lee. Yeah. Culturally, yes. Yeah. No, I have not. I have not. No, no, I'm not Jewish. I'm. Yeah, yeah. So I was never a thing. Yeah, no.

So that's the more general question. As, as, as, you know, I say as a Jewish person, which I'm not. But, you know, like, if you're, if you have, you know, Jewish children, Jewish wife, or if you're, you know, a Jewish person coming into Eastern Orthodoxy, I'm trying, I guess I'm trying to get a definitive answer. So it's, it's like. And I realize it's a hard topic because. And you've talked about, if we ended up having a bunch of people who are Jewish convert Eastern Orthodoxy, you might be able to have a Jewish Orthodox Church.

[A]

Right. That would be interesting.

[C]

You'd have these things.

Yeah, right. Was the individual, which would be awesome. Right. But so, so I, we real. Looks like we know that you are a child of Abraham through faith, through the faithfulness of Abraham, but if you also happen to be a child of Abraham via, like you're Jewish.

Like for those things in the Bible, let's say this were. This will be a perpetual thing throughout all your generations. Or like, for Abra. For. Even if you want to go pre Mosaic. So God says to Abraham, you're going to circumcise all the males in your household.

[A]

Right.

[C]

For forever.

And it's like, is that still now? Is that right? You know, I mean, and the fact that we're American means probably we would circumcise our sons. Anyway, I did ask my priest about this, and he's like, right. Is it. So he. He said. Or he asked me, is a rabbi going to do it? Because, like, maybe that makes.

[A]

I was going to ask that, too.

[B]

That's.

[A]

That makes a difference.

[C]

It's like, that makes it. There's a little bit more there, right? Like, there's a little. It's a little bit. And obviously, like, none of my. Nearly none of my wife's family.

Believe in Jesus. And so, like, there might be expectation of, like, well, are you going to do a breed? And it's. So. It's just. I think. You know what my question is? There's more. There's a very specific question for July, and there's a very general question.

[A]

Yeah. And so I'll.

[C]

Anyway, I'll.

[A]

Let me preface this by saying I'll address it generally in terms of your specific situation for July.

You need to go with your priest, and he may interact with his bishop about it.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

If he feels like he needs to. And go with what they tell you.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And I say that not knowing exactly what they'll tell you, but that's how things work in the Orthodox Church.

[C]

At that moment that I asked him, he was like, I'm not sure.

[A]

Right. And that's why I say he may consult with me.

[C]

You want me to reach out to Father Stephen? And I was like, I don't know yet.

[A]

Right. But I will talk about it in general. And you could tell the priest or have your priest listen to what I say, and he could decide how to advise you. Right. But ultimately he knows you better than I do and knows all the people involved than I do. Right. And that's why I say he's the one who needs to really help you with this decision. But I can talk about it in the general. The more general, because there are other things that come into effect here, too. Like is. Is your wife's family observant?

[C]

Some of them, yes. Some of them, no.

[A]

Okay. So the brother and sister. Because that'll change. Like, a very observant Orthodox Jewish woman probably wouldn't have married a Christian. Right. In the first place. Right, right. So that'll change family expectations too.

So in general, right. As I said on Pageau, and I know I'm not outing anybody, I'm not giving any names, but I know for a fact that there are Orthodox bishops in this country who have given.

Parishioners who are in a situation similar to yours a blessing to observe a number of elements of.

Jewish tradition or Old Testament tradition, really more Old Testament tradition. Right. In their homes.

So that is a thing that happens. Right.

Part of the complication here too is the fact that you are not Jewish and you as the father have a particular role in the household.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And so, see, there's all these factors that make real life messy, which is why I ultimately have to refer you back to your priest. So, but in general, if you have Jewish, like if you were both Jewish, right, The whole family was Jewish and you had all become Orthodox Christians and.

The bishop gave him his blessing and it's not all Jewish. Like you're not celebrating Jewish holidays instead of the Orthodox Christian ones or anything. Right. But there's elements of. Right. Including stuff like not eating pork and those kind of things. Right.

That would be, again, a more clear cut thing. So those things are good and fine when blessed by the bishop. That short list of things when, again, they're not done as sort of. This is.

The general and absolutized path of salvation. Right. When they're kept in the way that.

Greek people keep Greek Orthodox traditions and Syrian Orthodox people keep Syrian Orthodox traditions and Russian Orthodox people keep Russian Orthodox traditions. Because there are different traditions about how they fast, there are foods they don't eat. Right. There are different things like that in different Orthodox churches. And I don't see how Jewish Orthodox Christians doing something similar with Old Testament traditions is any different than that. Again, providing there's the blessing and everything there.

[C]

Well, could you answer to the like? So when God would say in the Old Testament, like, this will be observed.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Is there like a cutoff at Jesus or like the. The institution of the new Covenant or like, what is the Orthodox thinking on that type of.

[A]

There is no. I have not seen anywhere. I have not read every church, Father. I have not read every.

[C]

Right, okay.

[A]

But.

Now they're all very clear, like St. Paul, that as a religious right of entry into Christianity, circumcision. No. Right. But part of their argument is that it was never that.

Right. That it never was that. Not that something changed.

Right. So for them, circumcision still does what circumcision always did, but that was never something for everybody in the world. That was never right.

But so you find people like St. Augustine.

Saying that anybody who comes into the Christian church, even if they're a Jewish person coming into the Christian church and tries to demand that people be circumcised, needs to get thrown out as a heretic. But the civil authorities should not outlaw circumcision, et cetera, et cetera, and those things and the practice of those things because they were given by God.

In the Torah in the Pentateuch. That's St. Augustine, who isn't exactly renowned for being a Judaizer.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, not his rep. Right.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah. So. So to me, again. And that's why I think, like I said, there are bishops who have given a blessing to Jewish families to continue doing that, which includes circumcision. Circumcision of males is included in that. Now they don't have them go and get circumcised by a rabbi.

[C]

Okay. I mean, that would be the. Yeah. I mean, that's obviously the.

[A]

Yeah. They don't bring in a moil.

[C]

Rabbi, maybe, or something.

[A]

There sort of aren't Christian moils. See, this is one of the things that if you actually had one of these hypothetical Jewish Orthodox communities.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Right. In the community. Right. And this would be up to the bishop of that community to decide, not me. But he might have a. Put together a Christian version of the Bris. Right. Like.

And that kind of thing that would. Would reflect and interact with it. I say might because again, it's not my call. I'm hypothesizing on what would happen if XYZ happened hypothetical in the future.

But back to the more practical thing.

The key thing is.

This broader stuff is less important to you. Honestly, the key thing is that within your relationship with your wife and your children and her family and your family and your parish and your spiritual father and his bishop, that you come to a way of living together that honors you and your family and cultural.

And background.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And hers. And provides a spiritually nurturing place for your kids to grow up in that received tradition and find Christ in it. Right. That's everybody's goal. It's your goal, bishop's goal, priest's goal, your family. Right. You, her, maybe not all of her family because they're not Christians, but something similar to it. They want them to grow up and be happy and well adjusted and love God.

[C]

Right.

[A]

At least that part of it. Right.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Everybody's on the same page in what they want. And so figuring out the way to do that with your particular kind of blended family is something you kind of have to work out on the ground. But in the larger principle, there's nothing evil about anything. In the Torah.

God didn't ordain evil or bad things. Right. Humans could take things that God ordained and twist them into evil or bad things. They can see them wrongly, they can use them wrongly, they can interpret them wrongly. Right? But, but they're not bad in and of themselves.

Right? When, when used appropriately and in the proper context.

[C]

Does the. And I'll, I'll finish up if, but, but does the.

As far as the.

You know, if it's a rabbi, then it's. So even if, let's say.

My wife and I have the proper understanding of circumcision, but then you go to a rabbi and obviously they think something else is happening here. Is that, is that what the problem is? Or is it like. No, it's because it's that their understanding is different of like what's happening here versus our understanding of what's happening. Or just. I don't know if you can.

[A]

It's the bris. It's the bris service itself that to me, I would think problematic.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Like the service of the person, what is said and what is prayed there.

[C]

Laws or something like that or.

[A]

Right, yeah. Doesn't conform to.

Does it completely conform with what we would believe about it?

[C]

Right.

[A]

And so that, that would be the issue is the religious service it's done in. Right? Because like, if you have it done medically by a doctor, right? I mean, he's atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, who knows, right?

[C]

But like, all right, I mean, if you're just American, and then it's like, yeah, I'm gonna, you know, my child will be circumcised. Like, no one really cares, but it's like, I'm Jewish, I'm a child. He's like, wait a second, hang on here. It's like, okay, but I understand. So I understand. I mean, so, yeah, I just, I just wanted to ask that. And then, yeah, the more general thing of just. I was always curious, like, you know, with these things that are, you know, seem to be like in perpetuity, like how does that transfer into the new Covenant? And, and like you said, you know, as you're called, is how you should, if you're called as a Jewish person.

[A]

I also think we need to put this. Just a second. I'll go with you, Father Andrew. I promise this will be quick, but we need to not put this onus on Jewish people. That becoming Christian means you're not Jewish anymore. Because we don't do that to anyone else. They didn't tell me I needed to stop being Dutch. Right. They didn't tell Father Andrew he had to stop being Lithuanian. They did. We don't do that to anyone else.

[C]

Right, right.

[A]

And we're putting an unnecessary obstacle between Jewish people in Christ when we tell them, in order to become a Christian, you have to stop being Jewish, which doesn't even make sense because Christianity is a form of Judaism.

[C]

Right. For sure.

[B]

Right. Anyway, Father Andrew, I was going to say, I mean. I mean, you've made the point in the past, Father, that, like, the perpetuity of circumcision ultimately finds its fulfillment in Christ, who, you know, if we're in Christ, then we receive the benefits of his circumcision because, you know, we function as the bride. And that's the way that women receive the benefits in the Old Covenant is through their father or their husband, you know, being a circumcised man. And so, like, it is in perpetuity because Christ is eternal and we're in Christ. So, like, it doesn't go away, you.

[A]

Know, even if Christ is circumcised.

[C]

Right, right.

[B]

Even if no one ever is circumcised ever again, it still is in perpetuity because Christ is.

[C]

Right. That makes sense. I just. And then I follow on John le Peugeot saying, you know, we have to deal with the fact that Paul circumcised Timothy.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

Which is interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

There's lots of interesting things. Yeah. So I just. I just wanted to ask you both and.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

I mean, Father Stephen, you just talked about. For so much that I've, you know, I wanted to at some point ask, but. Yeah, I. I do understand what you're saying, Father Andrew, about, like, the Christ. I think I've listened to you guys had an episode at one point, just about, you know, his circumcision becomes our circumcision. And.

So. Yeah. Okay. All right, cool.

[B]

Thanks for calling, Daniel. Hope you can work through all that stuff. We're going to take one more call and then I'm out of here.

So we have Christopher, whose phone says he's from Salt Lake City in Utah. Christopher, welcome to Laura Spirits Podcast.

[C]

Thank you so much, Father Andrew. My phone is. But I am now in Minnesota.

[B]

Oh. Way up there in Minnesota.

[A]

Where in Minnesota?

[C]

We are in central Minnesota. Holy Myr Bears Church is my home church in St. Cloud.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

See, I have a whole bunch of family who lives in Bemidji So I know where that is. And they've gone to that church before. They've gone down there and visited in St.

[B]

Cloud.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So you still have about three or four months until springtime starts then, right?

[C]

It was 60 today. It'll be freezing tomorrow. And, you know, it's Minnesota.

[B]

There we go.

So what is on your mind, Christopher?

[C]

Okay, so I got to do a fun study, focus study. I'm doing a seminary online program on the Council of Florence, and, you know, got to dive in a little bit in the debates on the Holy Spirit. And it's like, I did this, and I'm still.

Not clear, but it seems as if for the Catholic Church, the Holy Spirit becomes almost the love between the Father and the Son and kind of dissolves as its own hypostasis, as you might say. It almost seems as if what I'm saying is maybe a simplification, but it's kind of the shorthand that I'm starting to see in various conversations, you know, with Catholics and Protestants, that the Holy Spirit becomes this, you know, love between. So how.

How much of.

And I mean, I guess the broader. The broader question of the Holy Spirit within the Orthodox Church, it seems as if. Because it's a mystery, you know, like, when we have the apophatic approach of, you know, not necessarily defining everything.

There'S just a lot of mystery about the Holy Spirit. And so I'll just leave it there. So. I appreciate your thought.

[B]

I mean, so the language of the Holy Spirit being the love between the Father and the Son. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, Father. Isn't that from St. Augustine?

[A]

It's an analogy he uses.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, I think. I mean, we're not Roman Catholic, so we can't speak for Roman Catholicism, but I. I believe that Roman Catholics would definitely not say that the Holy Spirit is not his own hypostasis, his own person.

[A]

Well, no, not if asked directly. Not if asked directly, no.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, right, right. That's what I'm saying.

So a lot of the criticisms that orthodox historically have had for Roman Catholic new mythology is by means of saying, well, you're saying this in your theology. That implies this, and that's a problem. Right. And certainly like the idea that.

The Spirit is kind of demoted by the filioque. I mean, that's one of Saint Photius arguments, essentially. And, I mean. And, you know, you mentioned Florence. I mean, Florence does explicitly say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son ab Uno principio. As from one principle.

Right. And that's a super problematic phrase for the Orthodox, because that. I mean, that does just. There's all kinds of problems. I mean, again, just read St. Photius about that. Essentially, he says, like, well, if there's something that the Father and the Son share, namely that the Spirit comes from them and that the Spirit doesn't have that, then how, you know, is the Spirit really on the same level as them?

And.

You know, the basic principle being that whatever you can say about God can be said about one person or about all three, but not about two.

And that anything other than that is very problematic in terms of the equality of the Godhead. I mean, again, as Father said, though, like, if you ask a Roman Catholic theologian directly, are the three persons of the Holy Trinity equal, they would absolutely say yes. Absolutely. They would say yes. So a lot of the argument is over whether Catholic theology actually does that or not. And from the Orthodox point of view, we definitely see the filioque not just as uncanonical in that it was declared by one Episcopal see, but as heretical, really. I mean, there are ways to interpret it in an orthodox way, you know, proceeding from the Father through the Son, this kind of thing. But I definitely would regard the language from Florence as being heretical. Absolutely. That's definitely what I think.

Take it away, Father. This is our last. We've got. It's interesting. We've had a lot of stuff about Roman Catholicism this evening. So.

[A]

Florence is what happens when you get. When you. You paint yourself into a corner.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's. The whole filioque thing is just Roman Catholicism has painted itself into a corner.

It started out. So where the filioque comes from, historically, why did this. Why did anyone ever add this? It's because of the Aryans.

[B]

Yeah, it's Spain.

[A]

So the Aryans were making this argument that. Well, okay, back up one step. So if you want to get the actual, like, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity, which, to be fair, Catechism of the Catholic Church, everything, all say that they agree with this. They then teach other things like the filioque that don't seem to agree with this, but they all affirm the nice seductive Trinity, specifically the monarchical Trinity. If you want to learn all about that, see the work of Dr. Bo Branson, who mostly goes by Doc Branson from his adventuring days. Nice as an archeologist and freedom fighter. But.

The.

So there's the positive reference. Okay, that's great. But the filioque gets.

Gets sort of added in there in response to a particular Aryan argument. So Aryans opposed the dicey doctor of the Trinity by saying, well, look, you're saying only God the Father is really ase. You're saying that only God the Father is sort of unoriginate because the Son is begotten and the Holy Spirit proceeds. They both find their origin in the Father. The Arians say, well, see, your subordination is just like us.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You know, you come and say we're subordinating Christ and the Holy Spirit to God by saying they're not really God. But you basically say the same thing because the Arian says part of being God is being unoriginate. So they take the unique quality of the Father and say that if you don't have that, you're not really God. So it's a circular argument.

Right? They say only the Father is God. And you say, well, why? And they say, well, well, because you have to have the peculiar quality of the Father in order to be God. It's just a circular argument. But rather than responding and saying it's just a circular argument.

There were those who in the west, the far Spain and parts of Italy.

Argued.

[C]

Well, no.

[A]

He proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Right? So see, he proceeds from the Sun. Also, the Spirit proceeds from the Sun. So see, the Son is also God, right? And literally it got added to the creed in order to sort of ward off this Aryan argument.

Now, as it developed, right, you get first, like Saint Maximus the Confessor sort of tried to apologize for it. He apologized for a lot of Latin usages.

And he said, well, they say proceed from the Father, said, but they just mean through the Son. He basically said, that's not what they mean. The people who are saying it mostly in the west don't know where it came from, don't know why it started. They just kind of mean that the Holy Spirit proceeds through the Son, meaning he proceeds from the Father, but then he's sent by the Son into the world. Something like that, right? That's what they really mean. And then you get the whole episode with them wanting the Pope to make that official. One Pope saying, no, I won't, then another Pope saying, yes, it is. And then the split and the Great Schism and everything happens. But so Saint Photius the Great, who Father Andrew mentioned, comes in and points out all the problems with it, right? Like, okay, so you added this phrase to try to ward off this one Aryan argument. But let's think about Some of the problems it causes. Okay, well, if the Son having a person proceed from him, makes him really God, then who proceeds from the Holy Spirit.

By that argument? Either the Holy Spirit isn't really God, or you have to add a fourth person, and then he left out a fifth.

[B]

He also said at one point, or maybe the Holy Spirit proceeds from himself.

[C]

Right.

[B]

That's nonsense.

[A]

He says, because he's just trying to think of all the possible things you could say. Right. Like. And none of them work. Right. And so I think, as you mentioned in your question, what you practically end up with in a lot of cases is the Holy Spirit being kind of subsidiary because they're not going to add a fourth. Right. So you end up with a view where he is kind of subsidiary.

And so what Florence is trying to do then ultimately is trying to ward off a bunch of the criticisms of the filioque.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because it's not really tenable. There's not really an argument for it.

But by the time you get to the 15th century, they're pretty darn committed to it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

To justifying it.

[C]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

And so you get. And in order to, at this point today, for the Roman Catholic Church to come out and say the filioque is wrong, they would cease to be the Roman Catholic Church.

[C]

Church.

[A]

Because they'd have to admit that all kinds of popes were fallible, Western councils were fallible. They can't do that and remain who they are. Right. So that's just not a possibility for them. They'd become a different entity. They'd become an Orthodox Church, basically, if they admitted that. Right.

But so they come up with this language of like, well, proceed as from one principle. Right. What does that even mean?

Yeah, right. And.

Like, if you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it says they affirm the filioque in a way such that it does not deny the monarchy of the Father. Well, there's quasi quidum, like some certain way. Like what way?

It seems to obviously deny the monarchy of the Father. Well, no, no, we believe it in a way that doesn't, like, love all the.

[B]

In such a way as that. That Calvinists use to. That's just so great.

[A]

Yeah. And so it's sort of. They've painted themselves into a corner where they. They're almost embarrassed by it, but they have to affirm it while still trying to affirm the correct view as well. And I think the whole thing about him being the love between the Father and the Son is part of a general tendency in the west. And even in Augustine. Now, keep in mind, St. Augustine repudiated his day Trinitate before he died. He refused to have it republished.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[A]

And kind of regretted having written it. So no criticism of it really is a criticism of St. Augustine as a saint because he himself said, I got a lot wrong. Right.

But one of the tendencies in that text and in texts that follow to the west, like Bay Trinitate and stuff, and in the Western trinitarian tradition and is that it tends to relativize the persons. It tends to the same way that they'll say we tend towards tritheism.

We would say their texts tend toward making the persons just relationships within God.

[C]

Right, right.

[A]

That they sort of have one God, that's the divine essence, and then there are these relationships within it, and that's what the three persons are. Well, that's not correct. Right. And they don't come out and fully say that I'm not. And they will not say that. Of course they say anything that tends that way. They will say in such a way that it does not deny the personhood of the three person. Right. But it tends in that direction instead of tending in the other direction.

[C]

Right.

[B]

All right.

Thank you. We had some big, complex ones this evening.

[A]

I just backed the garbage truck up and dumped it on you.

[B]

Yeah, there we go. So I hope that helps to some extent. Christopher in central Minnesota, formerly from Utah.

All right, thanks very much for calling.

Okay. All right, good night. Okay. Well, that's it. That's our show for tonight. Thank you very much, everybody, for listening. If you didn't happen to get through to us live this time, we'd still like to hear from you. You can email [e-mail] you can message us at our Facebook page. You can leave us a [e-mail] LordOfSpirits and if you have basic questions about Orthodox Christianity or you need help to find a parish, head over to orthodoxintro.org.

[A]

And join us for our live broadcast on the second and fourth Thursdays of the month at 7pm Eastern, 4pm Pacific.

[B]

And if you are on Facebook, you can follow our page, join our discussion group, leave reviews and ratings everywhere, and most importantly, share this show with a friend who is probably going to love it, maybe like it a little bit, I don't know.

[A]

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[B]

Thank you, good night and God bless you.

[A]

You been listening to the Lord of Spirits with Orthodox Christian priests, Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen DeYoung. A listener supported presentation of Ancient Faith Radio. And I beheld and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders. And the number of them was 10,000 times 10,000 and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and Blessing. Revelation, chapter 5, verses 11 through 12.