Transcript

Narrator (0:00)

He will be a staff for the righteous with which for them to stand and not to fall. And he will be the light of the nations and the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All who dwell on the earth will fall down and worship him. And they will praise and bless and celebrate with song the lord of spirits. First Enoch, chapter 48, verses 4 through 5. The modern world doesn't acknowledge, but is nevertheless haunted by spirits but angels, demons and saints. In our time, many yearn to break free of the prison of a flat secular materialism, to see and to know reality as it truly is. What is this spiritual reality like? How do we engage with it? Well, how do we permeate everyday life with spiritual presence? Orthodox Christian priests Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen DeYoung host this live call in show focused on enchantment in creation, the. The union of the seen and unseen as made by God and experienced by mankind throughout history. Welcome to the Lord of Spirits.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (1:05)

I feel like one of these days we should do like a cold open, you know, instead of. I don't know. What do you think, Father? Just like, you know, I mean, it'll.

Father Stephen DeYoung (1:14)

Probably happen eventually that just. We go live and don't realize it. We're talking about something else.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (1:20)

It's true.

Father Stephen DeYoung (1:21)

We've had the opposite.

Caller/Guest (1:23)

Yeah. Yeah.

Father Stephen DeYoung (1:25)

So.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (1:25)

Well, all right. Well, good evening.

Father Stephen DeYoung (1:27)

Wait for a happy accident, all of.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (1:29)

You, you giant killers, you dragon slayers, you warders off of the unclean.

Father Stephen DeYoung (1:35)

You are like a warder off of the unclean. Is that like the guy who follows you around ringing a bell, yelling, unclean, unclean.

Caller/Guest (1:43)

Exactly.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (1:46)

Yes. Followed by, you know, bring out your dead.

Caller/Guest (1:50)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Lord of Spirits – "Purifications of the Law"

Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Date: January 24, 2025
Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition—Ritual Purity and Impurity in the Old Testament and Orthodox Christianity

Overview of the Episode

This episode dives deep into the biblical concepts of ritual purity and impurity, exploring both their historical foundations in the Torah/Old Testament and their ongoing place in Orthodox Christian life. Frs. Andrew and Stephen challenge the modern assumption that such ideas are merely "obsolete legalisms," delving into the difference between moral and ritual uncleanness, how categories of clean and unclean persist or are transformed, and addressing contemporary misunderstandings—particularly regarding practices surrounding churching of women after childbirth, who can approach the altar, and preparation for the Eucharist. The show combines lively banter, profound scriptural insight, and practical spiritual application.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Does Ritual Purity "Disappear" in Christianity?

Popular Misconception: Many Christians believe Jesus "abolished" ritual purity laws.
Hosts' Position: Christ transforms, but does not abolish, the Law. Elements are fulfilled, transformed, or persist—not simply discarded.

"Nothing gets dropped with the coming of Christ? Nothing gets dropped in the New Testament. We need to get past that."
– Fr. Stephen (05:02)

2. Understanding "Clean" and "Unclean": Not Just Sin and Not Just Hygiene

Two Kinds of Uncleanness:
- Moral Uncleanness: Tied to sinful acts; alienates a person from God’s presence because of what they did.
- Ritual (Ceremonial) Uncleanness: Not necessarily sinful; relates to common activities or bodily phenomena—e.g., burying the dead, menstruation, emissions, touching dead animals.
Key Clarification: Ritual uncleanness is largely unavoidable and not a moral failure.

"Ceremonial or ritual uncleanness does not necessarily imply moral uncleanness. You can be ceremonially unclean ... without having done anything evil."
– Fr. Stephen (12:00)
Serious Moral Uncleanness: Includes murder, sexual immorality, idolatry—“avoidable” forms of uncleanness.

“You're not going to accidentally murder someone. If someone is killed by accident, that's not murder.”
– Fr. Stephen (17:15)

3. The Real Meaning of "Holy" and "Common"

Clean/Unclean ≠ Good/Bad: Instead, “holy” is “set apart” and “common” is “everyday.” Ritual actions move a person from the common to the holy to approach God.

“It's just a drinking cup. There's common and then there's something that is holy and set apart for its particular purpose.”
– Fr. Stephen (25:22)

4. Ways One Becomes Ritually Unclean (Lighting Round, 26:17–39:44)

Touching unclean things, eating/drinking something unclean, butchering animals, giving birth, skin disease, mildew, bodily emissions, burying the dead, and even defecation.
Uncleanness itself is not evil—the problem is approaching God in a state of uncleanness.

“These are not sinful acts, everybody. That's so important. These are not sinful acts... giving birth is a good thing.”
– Fr. Andrew (32:26)

5. Sin, Repentance, and Outlying Cases

Ritual uncleanness requires washing and temporary abstaining from temple worship.
Moral uncleanness (e.g., murder) can result in lasting or permanent exclusion—certain acts “mark” a person in a way ritual alone cannot “clean.”
Notable Concept: “Agos” (accursed)—the state of being permanently set apart from the holy, as seen in Cain and notorious biblical criminals.

“You kill somebody, you can't just go wash your hands, take a shower... Okay, now we're good.”
– Fr. Stephen (107:38)

6. Application to Christian Sacramental Life

Baptism: Washes away both moral and ritual uncleanness, done once.
Confession/Repentance: For post-baptismal moral uncleanness; there are even canonical bars to Communion for extreme sins, sometimes up to one’s deathbed.
Preparation for Eucharist: Clergy (and laity) abstain from marital relations before Liturgy, wash hands, and generally prepare themselves inwardly and outwardly.
Churching of Women & Inclusion of Babies: Not about "sinfulness" of birth or women but restoration after a period of unavoidable uncleanness and welcoming the child.
Approaching the Altar: Strictly regulated for all, not just women.

7. Misunderstandings and Gender in Practice

"Women's Issues" Are Not Exclusive: Men also have ritual limitations (emissions, etc.); rules are not anti-feminine.
Modern Objections: Often come from misunderstanding Leviticus; arguments about changing or omitting prayers ignore the theological continuity the Church seeks.

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

On the Enduring Relevance of Purity Categories

05:02 – Fr. Stephen:
“There's nothing gets dropped with the coming of Christ … There are things that persist in basically the same form.”

On Ritual vs. Moral Uncleanness

12:00 – Fr. Stephen:
“You could be in a state where you need to wash yourself … without having done anything evil. But if you have done something evil, then you also need to be purified before you can go into the presence of God and worship God.”

On the Point of the Law

47:49 – Fr. Andrew:
“When God says, this makes you unclean, or, you know, especially this makes you morally unclean. He's describing reality as it actually is. He's not saying, okay, I've made a bunch of rules and I'm going to zap you guys if you don't follow them.”

On Christ’s Transformation of Purity

116:06 – Fr. Stephen:
“Christ is the atonement for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for the whole world. … is cleansed and purified by Christ’s blood in sort of an eschatological day of atonement.”

On Common vs. Holy—The Right Balance

139:39 – Fr. Stephen:
“The church—the scriptures have always acknowledged that as people, we live out in the common world. And then at certain times, we gather together… to draw close to God. ... And after we've done that for a time, we don't build tabernacles there. We go back down the mountain and we go back into the common world of everyday life.”

On What Repentance Is For

132:54 – Fr. Andrew:
“Repentance is aimed at intimacy with God. ... What's offered to us is to be sons of the most high, to be equal to angels … to be adopted into his family. That is what is offered to us. … all of this is aimed at getting us ready for that, getting us ready for that.”

Important Caller Questions

On Churching of Women After Birth (55:00–71:23)

Question: If ritual impurity isn’t sin, why does the post-birth prayer for women sound like it is?
Response: Prayers mark return to the community after unavoidable absence; language of purification and forgiveness reflects reality of restoration, not condemnation.
Clarification: Theotokos as “without corruption” means “without physical damage,” not sinfulness.

On Who May Enter the Altar (72:07–80:54)

Question: Do purity rules underlie restrictions on women entering the altar? What about men/altar servers?
Response: Entering the altar is strictly regulated for all, not about gender per se; altar servers’ male status is historically about training future clergy, not a value judgment on women.

Application for Christians Today

Purification, Not Exclusion: All church practices around cleansing and abstaining (for clergy, laity, men, and women alike) exist to facilitate safe, holy encounter with God—not to bar or degrade.
Holy and Common: The Christian life is a movement between the “common” world and holy contexts—preparation and purification are acts of reverence, not repression.
Repentance and Real Intimacy: The ultimate goal is not perfection for its own sake, but readiness for communion and intimacy with the living God.

Conclusion

This episode brings clarity and nuance to one of the most misunderstood areas of biblical and Christian practice. Listeners are left with a deeper appreciation for the integrity and seriousness of Orthodox spirituality—with all its “old” ritual requirements now revealed not as legalism but as divinely intended ways to prepare, cleanse, and enable communion with God in a world that is still “common.” In the final analysis, these traditions point toward what is always central—the love and holiness of God who desires intimate union with his people.

Episode Navigation – Key Segments

| Segment | Topic | |---------------------------------------|-------------------------------------------| | 00:00–05:01 | Introduction, Framing the Theme | | 05:02–26:17 | Clarifying Ritual vs. Moral Uncleanness | | 26:17–41:06 | Practical Examples of Ritual Uncleanness | | 41:06–54:26 | Ritual, Sin, Repentance—Overlapping Cases | | 54:26–71:23 (Caller 1) | Churching of Women, Misconceptions | | 71:23–80:54 (Caller 2) | Altar Access, Gender, Clergy Preparation | | 80:54–110:37 | Cain as Archetype, Moral Uncleanness | | 110:37–133:27 | New Testament, Ritual, and Christian Life | | 133:27–145:05 | Conclusion—Sacred/Common, Final Reflections|

For further exploration, see the podcast’s earlier Day of Atonement episode ("The Priest Shall Make Atonement”).