Purifications of the Law

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Lord of Spirits – "Purifications of the Law"

Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Date: January 24, 2025
Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition—Ritual Purity and Impurity in the Old Testament and Orthodox Christianity

---

Overview of the Episode

This episode dives deep into the biblical concepts of ritual purity and impurity, exploring both their historical foundations in the Torah/Old Testament and their ongoing place in Orthodox Christian life. Frs. Andrew and Stephen challenge the modern assumption that such ideas are merely "obsolete legalisms," delving into the difference between moral and ritual uncleanness, how categories of clean and unclean persist or are transformed, and addressing contemporary misunderstandings—particularly regarding practices surrounding churching of women after childbirth, who can approach the altar, and preparation for the Eucharist. The show combines lively banter, profound scriptural insight, and practical spiritual application.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Does Ritual Purity "Disappear" in Christianity?

• Popular Misconception: Many Christians believe Jesus "abolished" ritual purity laws.

• Hosts' Position: Christ transforms, but does not abolish, the Law. Elements are fulfilled, transformed, or persist—not simply discarded.

  "Nothing gets dropped with the coming of Christ? Nothing gets dropped in the New Testament. We need to get past that."
  – Fr. Stephen (05:02)

2. Understanding "Clean" and "Unclean": Not Just Sin and Not Just Hygiene

• Two Kinds of Uncleanness:

  • Moral Uncleanness: Tied to sinful acts; alienates a person from God’s presence because of what they did.
  • Ritual (Ceremonial) Uncleanness: Not necessarily sinful; relates to common activities or bodily phenomena—e.g., burying the dead, menstruation, emissions, touching dead animals.

• Key Clarification: Ritual uncleanness is largely unavoidable and not a moral failure.

  "Ceremonial or ritual uncleanness does not necessarily imply moral uncleanness. You can be ceremonially unclean ... without having done anything evil."
  – Fr. Stephen (12:00)

• Serious Moral Uncleanness: Includes murder, sexual immorality, idolatry—“avoidable” forms of uncleanness.

  “You're not going to accidentally murder someone. If someone is killed by accident, that's not murder.”
  – Fr. Stephen (17:15)

3. The Real Meaning of "Holy" and "Common"

• Clean/Unclean ≠ Good/Bad: Instead, “holy” is “set apart” and “common” is “everyday.” Ritual actions move a person from the common to the holy to approach God.

  “It's just a drinking cup. There's common and then there's something that is holy and set apart for its particular purpose.”
  – Fr. Stephen (25:22)

4. Ways One Becomes Ritually Unclean (Lighting Round, 26:17–39:44)

• Touching unclean things, eating/drinking something unclean, butchering animals, giving birth, skin disease, mildew, bodily emissions, burying the dead, and even defecation.

• Uncleanness itself is not evil—the problem is approaching God in a state of uncleanness.

  “These are not sinful acts, everybody. That's so important. These are not sinful acts... giving birth is a good thing.”
  – Fr. Andrew (32:26)

5. Sin, Repentance, and Outlying Cases

• Ritual uncleanness requires washing and temporary abstaining from temple worship.

• Moral uncleanness (e.g., murder) can result in lasting or permanent exclusion—certain acts “mark” a person in a way ritual alone cannot “clean.”

• Notable Concept: “Agos” (accursed)—the state of being permanently set apart from the holy, as seen in Cain and notorious biblical criminals.

  “You kill somebody, you can't just go wash your hands, take a shower... Okay, now we're good.”
  – Fr. Stephen (107:38)

6. Application to Christian Sacramental Life

• Baptism: Washes away both moral and ritual uncleanness, done once.
• Confession/Repentance: For post-baptismal moral uncleanness; there are even canonical bars to Communion for extreme sins, sometimes up to one’s deathbed.
• Preparation for Eucharist: Clergy (and laity) abstain from marital relations before Liturgy, wash hands, and generally prepare themselves inwardly and outwardly.
• Churching of Women & Inclusion of Babies: Not about "sinfulness" of birth or women but restoration after a period of unavoidable uncleanness and welcoming the child.
• Approaching the Altar: Strictly regulated for all, not just women.

7. Misunderstandings and Gender in Practice

• "Women's Issues" Are Not Exclusive: Men also have ritual limitations (emissions, etc.); rules are not anti-feminine.
• Modern Objections: Often come from misunderstanding Leviticus; arguments about changing or omitting prayers ignore the theological continuity the Church seeks.

---

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

On the Enduring Relevance of Purity Categories

• 05:02 – Fr. Stephen:
  “There's nothing gets dropped with the coming of Christ … There are things that persist in basically the same form.”

On Ritual vs. Moral Uncleanness

• 12:00 – Fr. Stephen:
  “You could be in a state where you need to wash yourself … without having done anything evil. But if you have done something evil, then you also need to be purified before you can go into the presence of God and worship God.”

On the Point of the Law

• 47:49 – Fr. Andrew:
  “When God says, this makes you unclean, or, you know, especially this makes you morally unclean. He's describing reality as it actually is. He's not saying, okay, I've made a bunch of rules and I'm going to zap you guys if you don't follow them.”

On Christ’s Transformation of Purity

• 116:06 – Fr. Stephen:
  “Christ is the atonement for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for the whole world. … is cleansed and purified by Christ’s blood in sort of an eschatological day of atonement.”

On Common vs. Holy—The Right Balance

• 139:39 – Fr. Stephen:
  “The church—the scriptures have always acknowledged that as people, we live out in the common world. And then at certain times, we gather together… to draw close to God. ... And after we've done that for a time, we don't build tabernacles there. We go back down the mountain and we go back into the common world of everyday life.”

On What Repentance Is For

• 132:54 – Fr. Andrew:
  “Repentance is aimed at intimacy with God. ... What's offered to us is to be sons of the most high, to be equal to angels … to be adopted into his family. That is what is offered to us. … all of this is aimed at getting us ready for that, getting us ready for that.”

---

Important Caller Questions

On Churching of Women After Birth (55:00–71:23)

• Question: If ritual impurity isn’t sin, why does the post-birth prayer for women sound like it is?
• Response: Prayers mark return to the community after unavoidable absence; language of purification and forgiveness reflects reality of restoration, not condemnation.
• Clarification: Theotokos as “without corruption” means “without physical damage,” not sinfulness.

On Who May Enter the Altar (72:07–80:54)

• Question: Do purity rules underlie restrictions on women entering the altar? What about men/altar servers?
• Response: Entering the altar is strictly regulated for all, not about gender per se; altar servers’ male status is historically about training future clergy, not a value judgment on women.

---

Application for Christians Today

• Purification, Not Exclusion: All church practices around cleansing and abstaining (for clergy, laity, men, and women alike) exist to facilitate safe, holy encounter with God—not to bar or degrade.
• Holy and Common: The Christian life is a movement between the “common” world and holy contexts—preparation and purification are acts of reverence, not repression.
• Repentance and Real Intimacy: The ultimate goal is not perfection for its own sake, but readiness for communion and intimacy with the living God.

---

Conclusion

This episode brings clarity and nuance to one of the most misunderstood areas of biblical and Christian practice. Listeners are left with a deeper appreciation for the integrity and seriousness of Orthodox spirituality—with all its “old” ritual requirements now revealed not as legalism but as divinely intended ways to prepare, cleanse, and enable communion with God in a world that is still “common.” In the final analysis, these traditions point toward what is always central—the love and holiness of God who desires intimate union with his people.

---

Episode Navigation – Key Segments

| Segment | Topic | |---------------------------------------|-------------------------------------------| | 00:00–05:01 | Introduction, Framing the Theme | | 05:02–26:17 | Clarifying Ritual vs. Moral Uncleanness | | 26:17–41:06 | Practical Examples of Ritual Uncleanness | | 41:06–54:26 | Ritual, Sin, Repentance—Overlapping Cases | | 54:26–71:23 (Caller 1) | Churching of Women, Misconceptions | | 71:23–80:54 (Caller 2) | Altar Access, Gender, Clergy Preparation | | 80:54–110:37 | Cain as Archetype, Moral Uncleanness | | 110:37–133:27 | New Testament, Ritual, and Christian Life | | 133:27–145:05 | Conclusion—Sacred/Common, Final Reflections|

---

For further exploration, see the podcast’s earlier Day of Atonement episode ("The Priest Shall Make Atonement”).

Transcript

[Narrator]

He will be a staff for the righteous with which for them to stand and not to fall. And he will be the light of the nations and the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All who dwell on the earth will fall down and worship him. And they will praise and bless and celebrate with song the lord of spirits. First Enoch, chapter 48, verses 4 through 5. The modern world doesn't acknowledge, but is nevertheless haunted by spirits but angels, demons and saints. In our time, many yearn to break free of the prison of a flat secular materialism, to see and to know reality as it truly is. What is this spiritual reality like? How do we engage with it? Well, how do we permeate everyday life with spiritual presence? Orthodox Christian priests Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen DeYoung host this live call in show focused on enchantment in creation, the. The union of the seen and unseen as made by God and experienced by mankind throughout history. Welcome to the Lord of Spirits.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I feel like one of these days we should do like a cold open, you know, instead of. I don't know. What do you think, Father? Just like, you know, I mean, it'll.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Probably happen eventually that just. We go live and don't realize it. We're talking about something else.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's true.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We've had the opposite.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, all right. Well, good evening.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Wait for a happy accident, all of.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You, you giant killers, you dragon slayers, you warders off of the unclean.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You are like a warder off of the unclean. Is that like the guy who follows you around ringing a bell, yelling, unclean, unclean.

[Caller/Guest]

Exactly.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. Followed by, you know, bring out your dead.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

This is the Lord of Spirits podcast. That other voice you just heard is The Very Reverend Dr. Steven DeYoung, the scourge of Semiramis. And he's with me straight from the swamp in Lafayette, Louisiana, where they are under 9 inches of snow for the first time in recorded history.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What is going on? They're probably all froze to death.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They're cold blooded.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

They're not prepared for this frozen Cajun food. It's just not. It's not right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Gator's not right.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I'm Father Andrew Stephen Damick in Emmaus, Pennsylvania, where this morning it was. I think it was about 3 degrees and I walked outside. My beard froze. But I am currently perched precariously atop the arcane tower of podcasting, hovering dozens of stories above a disused gateway to the underworld. And we are live.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Probably. Stop and dampening your beard before Leaving the house.

[Caller/Guest]

I know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That'll help keep it from freezing.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know, I know. And if you're listening to us live, everybody, you can call us at 855-237-2346. You can talk to us. And we're gonna get to your calls in the second half of the show. And our very own, our very beloved, our very powerful Matuska, Trudy the Tank Richter, newly promoted. Newly promoted. Yes, that's right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

She's queen of all media or something over there.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Something like that, yes. So I want to give a very mild parental advisory, everybody. This evening we're gonna be talking about ritual impurity in the Old Testament.

[Caller/Guest]

Among.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So that's going to include a little bit of talk about bodily functions. Nothing explicit.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Fluids.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Fluids, yes. Nothing explicit, but it will be mentioned. So there are some who say that the ritual purification theology of the Old Testament is one of those things that gets dropped with the coming of Christ. That the church is in no way bound by either its stipulations or its ethos. And some, seeing certain prayers or practices of the church that seemed to be informed by this ethos may even decry them as aberrations. Questions inconsistent with the New Testament. But is this true? Are all those Levitical commandments about uncleanness and ritual washings and so forth just obsolete? Didn't Jesus just cleanse the whole world and do away with all that? What do you think, Father Stephen? Did Jesus just toss all that to the curb?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right, good night, everybody. Been a while since I did that bit, so, yeah, I might as well do it every few months.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Jesus didn't toss any stuff out.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, he's kind of, like, explicit about that, actually.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. That one. Yoder Timmel, I believe.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yoder Timmel. I don't know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I like jot and tittle.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's very King Jamesy, you know?

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So what are we supposed to do with all that stuff?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Was that Ghost Rider? What was that?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Negative.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Ghost Rider, bbs. Childhood memories about, like, Palabra jat.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wow.

[Caller/Guest]

For words.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

For words, anyway.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

If you're growing up in LA in the late 70s and you know it's about. Call us. Go ahead and call during the first half if you know the answer to that.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I'll be watching the lines.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, but only for that. Otherwise you gotta wait till the second half.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They'll try and Trojan horse your way in. Yeah. So there's nothing gets dropped with the coming of Christ? Nothing gets dropped in the New Testament. We need to get past that. Right, Just get past that. There are things that persist in basically the same form.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

By the way, we just got a request which is our YouTube guy, Simon. He requested that if Trudy gets to be the queen of digital something, queen of media, he wants to be the jarl of YouTube. What do you think, Father? Should we dub him the jarl of YouTube? Has a nice little.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Has he drunk mead from the skull of one of his enemies? Oh, Simon, you're gonna have to let us know because I think Jarl.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Very important question.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, that's a basic qualification for Jarl.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It has to be bead.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Otherwise you could just be a Bulgarian or something.

[Caller/Guest]

So.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right. Uncleanness.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. But anyway. Yes. So there's some things that persist, like the identity of God is the same in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There are other things that are transformed by who Christ is and what he does.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But nothing just goes away or gets trash binned.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Take that, Marcionists.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, Marcionites and lots of other crypto. Marcionites. That's all crypto Marcionite. They're hiding it secretly.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of Marcion? The shadow knows.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, he knows that for everybody, though.

[Caller/Guest]

So.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. So obviously our. Our answer to that is no. But obviously also this is one of those things that in certain ways gets transformed in other ways, persists in basically the same form more than you might think. So that's what we're getting into tonight. And part of this, of course, is that in general, folks don't have a good understanding of the whole clean unclean distinction in the Old Testament in the first place.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What that's actually about, what it actually means, what it's actually distinguishing. And the biggest problem, and we've mentioned this at least in passing, I know, several times in the history of the show, but the biggest thing is conflating the concept of sin with the concept of uncleanness per se, that somehow clean is good and unclean is bad or even evil.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

These are commensurate categories.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so anything that's called unclean is some in the Old Testament, therefore, is sinful. And then there's further. We're not going to go into that now, but see past episodes on the definition of bad definitions of sin that make that even worse mistake. Right. When those get imported. But so the place we have to start in terms of actually understanding it is that there are two different kinds of uncleanness in The Old Testament in the Torah really is where we're starting.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And they are not the same thing. The first is the one that is usually the cause of conflation. That is there is moral uncleanness.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Do something evil that renders you unclean.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Unclean. You're unfit to go into the presence of God because of this evil thing that you did.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's not just that you're, like, dirty, you know, like, oh, look how dirty that person is. It's. You can't go be with God. You can't go into approach the tabernacle or the temple and offer sacrifices. Like you have a limitation on your behavior.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Until the problem is taken care of.

[Caller/Guest]

Right, right.

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so that's the way people tend to think about all uncleanness in the Torah. But that's not all uncleanness in the Torah. Far more common is what we might call ceremonial or ritual uncleanness. And ceremonial or ritual uncleanness is something you contract in a variety of ways that we're going to talk about here in the first half, but that is resolved. Often if you read the Torah, it'll say the person who does this must wash and they're unclean until evening, or sometimes there's a longer period of like seven days of purification, and then they wash and they're clean. This is all resolved by ritual washings, of which there are a lot in the Torah and in the Old Testament and even into Second Temple Judaism.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And they have. I mean, there's references to, like, special pools in the Gospels where people, as they're approaching the temple, they would wash themselves.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. And people. I think when people hear that, they don't really understand what's going on there, because I think when people hear that, they're thinking of like a Roman bath or something, like where you go in and you like. And the people are all bathing and maybe it's like a gang shower. In college, us old people in college didn't have private showers. I don't know.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's true. I remember that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It was spoiled.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The. But it's not even that type of situation. We're talking about a literal, like, pool of water. And there are pools in Jerusalem from the time of Christ that are massive, and they have steps leading down into and then out of them.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You just walk down in and walk through it and then walk up out the other side and like, dozens of.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

People at a time.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah. It's like going. It's like going through, you know, passport control.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You just pass through and you're good on the other side.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Now, obviously there were also more private McVoat and that kind of thing. And there were separate men and women's for when they're doing this in the nude.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Etc.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But ceremonial washing is dealing with this kind of ritual uncleanness.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And it wasn't that, you know, journeying to Jerusalem was evil. But you're out there on the road, right? And now you're coming into the city and now you're going up to the temple to worship God. And so. Right, you're cleaned. So this is the kind of ceremonial case that has no, it is not a moral category. Yeah, it is not a moral. And we'll see that pretty clearly as we go forward and talk a little more about it. But we have to start with this distinction. Now, moral uncleanness, when you do something, when you actually do something sinful, you do something wicked, you do something evil, and that makes you unclean and therefore unfit to come into the presence of God because of that evil thing you did. That includes ceremonial uncleanness. Meaning that's why in particular you're banned from participating in worship. You are ceremonially or ritually unclean because of that. But ceremonial or ritual uncleanness does not necessarily imply more moral uncleanness. You can be ceremonially unclean. You could be in a state where you need to wash yourself and clean yourself before you go to worship God without having done anything evil. But if you have done something evil, then you also need to be purified before you can go into the presence of God and worship God. So moral uncleanness. We're going to get much more into detail on this, but we'll start by saying is worse because it includes both. Whereas ritual uncleanness does not include moral uncleanness. Moral uncleanness is avoidable, at least in theory.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I say in theory because it involves just not sinning.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So it is theoretically possible not to commit any given sin, therefore it is theoretically possible to not commit any.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, I'm.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I'm not saying I, or anyone I know has done this recently.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Very, very unlikely.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, theoretically possible, but theoretically possible. And so, but also the, the. There are particular sins which are particularly associated with moral uncleanness.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

If you kill somebody, for instance. If you murder somebody, not just kill, but murder.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, to some extent kill, but especially murder.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, right, right, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There could be mitigating circumstances.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, sexual immorality, which, like, that's a big list In Leviticus.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Leviticus 18 has the. Yeah, yeah. Those in particular. And idolatry, of course, is closely. Pagan worship is closely connected to sexual immorality historically and theologically.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So that's kind of in this category too. You do these kind of things and then you are particularly morally unclean.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

More so than just, oh, I borrowed my neighbor's mule and forgot to give it back.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like, you're also. Technically, you have sinned. And until that is dealt with.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You are. You have contracted this uncleanness, but you rectify that by returning the mule.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Once you've committed acts, gross acts of sexual immorality, once you've committed acts of bloodshed and violence, once you've gone and participated in pagan worship, there's a lot more to the repentance and to rectifying that situation.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You can't just come back and say, hey, sorry about that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Oops, Yeah, I accidentally did an idolatry.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

As they might be giants once said, you can't shake the devil's hand and say, you're only kidding.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. But I do wonder how you can stand by your racist friend. I'm just gonna leave that there. So now people online can pontificate about which of your friends or other co hosts I'm discussing.

[Caller/Guest]

Whoa.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

With that comment.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wow.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I'm not saying it is someone. I'm not even saying it is. I'm just saying, you know how these things work.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I do.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

On the Internet. So that's probably going to happen.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Some people are not fans of John and John. Is that what.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, people are going to guess they're gonna. So.

[Caller/Guest]

Right. But.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But obviously.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Especially those very severe ones. Those are avoidable. Those aren't things you're gonna do accidentally.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You're not going to accidentally commit gross acts of sexual immorality. You're not accidentally going to go and participate in pagan worship. You're not going to accidentally murder someone. If someone is killed by accident, that's not murder.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's one of the mitigating circumstances.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So that's part of. You can understand what we mean by when we say avoidable.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

A person could go their whole life without doing at least a couple of those.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The ceremonial uncleanness, though, the kind that doesn't involve sin.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The kind that doesn't involve you having done some evil.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But just involves you now needing to be cleaned. You needing to wash before you could come and approach God. That's pretty much unavoidable.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, there's, there's certain kinds of ceremonial uncleanness that are theoretically avoidable. Like you may never touch a dead body in your whole life. Although, I mean, people's relatives die and they're going to be taken care of.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And you need to bury them. There's a commandment to bury them.

[Caller/Guest]

And so.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, but you theoretically might not ever be the person who does that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know, or like. Yeah. I mean, but there's some that are completely inescapable. Like, you know, bodily fluids being emitted from you.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Natural biological cycles.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Women have, you know, and even, you know, emissions that men have. Like these are things that render you ritually unclean.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so that's going to happen. You can't avoid that for your whole life. You can't avoid that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And it's not about sin. It doesn't bring moral condemnation to you. By. No one's going to say, oh, you buried your dead father, so now you are evil. I mean the opposite. Like, as you said, there's a commandment to do that. Like you should bury the dead.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Yeah. And let's be clear here, let's be clear here because this is a very common misinterpretation. A lot of people who come into the Orthodox church and they read some of our prayers of repentance, some of the forms that people use for confession talk about intentional and unintentional sins or voluntary and involuntary sins. That's not what these are talking about.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, it is.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I encounter a lot of people who think, oh, well, no, uncleanness is sin. And these are just the involuntary sins. So something could be totally involuntary in a sin. They will counter argue, but that's not what that means.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Involuntary sins are you're actually harming, you know, even if you didn't weren't trying to make it happen.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Voluntary, involuntary is about intent.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Think like involuntary manslaughter.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like if you hit somebody with your car and they die and you weren't trying to hit them with your car and you weren't even being negligent about it. That is an involuntary sin.

[Caller/Guest]

Right, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But I'm talking about even legally.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like you're just setting out to drive home, maybe you're driving a little faster than the speed limit, but somebody jumps out in front of your car and you hit them, that's called legally involuntary manslaughter.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, exactly.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's not that there was nothing you could do to stop that from happening. If there was Literally nothing you could do. There wouldn't be a crime involved.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But that was not a crime you set out to do.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You had no inkling in your mind of killing a person.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But you killed a person. So that's what voluntary and involuntary is talking about when we use those words in terms of sin. Voluntary is I set out to do this thing, this wicked thing, and I did it, or I tried to do it.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Or I intended to do it. Whereas involuntary sin is, you know, I wasn't paying attention. I was thoughtless, I was clueless, I whatever. And I did this horrible thing, but it's not what I set out to do.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Why is that still considered sin? Well, remember, sin isn't about who's guilty and who's going to get punished.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's about harm that has been enacted.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Done to you and done to other people.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So if I unthinkingly say something that deeply hurts my wife.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

She is hurt. And it doesn't matter if I say, oh, well, I didn't mean that. I wasn't thinking. I mean, she can accept that explanation, but that doesn't make her less hurt by what I said.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I still have to. I can't just say, oh, well, I didn't mean that. That's not what I was trying to say, and then just walk away like nothing ever happened. Right. Like, I have to. There's. There's more repentance needed there.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

If the effects of our actions constitute sin, we have to repent of them. We have to repair that damage in the same way that if we intend to do those actions that cause harm, we have to repent of them. You don't sort of, oh, I don't have to repent. I don't have to apologize. I don't have to try and fix things because I didn't mean to break it in the first place. Like, yeah, that. That dog don't hunt. So part of this unavoidableness. The unavoidableness, though, you can see if you look at how the Torah itself defines this distinction between clean and unclean. What distinction it compares it to, which is not good and bad or good and evil. In Leviticus 10:10.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So it says. Yeah, it's very brief. It says you are distinguished between the holy and the common and between the unclean and the clean. So you've got this parallel there. Holy and common, unclean and clean.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so the idea is here the holy thing is the clean thing.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And the Unclean thing is the common thing.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's a very different distinction. Holy and common is a very different distinction than good and bad or good and evil.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's not remotely the same thing, to use the example I always use.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We have a chalice for celebrating the Eucharist in our church at home. I have A Star Trek 2 Wrath of Khan collector cup. The chalice was not made of holy ore mined from the holy mountain.

[Caller/Guest]

And.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Blessed by a patriarch. That's not the difference. It's not a material difference between the two. One has been set apart for a particular purpose.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It is holy.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The chalice is only used for the Eucharist. That is it. If someone steals it from us.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And uses it to drink Kool Aid at home, it's not a chalice anymore. It's not holy anymore.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The thing my Star Trek to Wrath of God collector's cup is, it's actually rather uncommon at this point in history. But you get my point. It's just a drinking cup.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Cup or a glass that you drink out of every day for whatever you're drinking.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There's common and then there's something that is holy and set apart for its particular purpose. And so what's happening when a person has become unclean in the process of going about their common everyday life in the camp or in Israel or in the world or wherever they're going to now approach God who is holy. And so they need to make themselves holy. Well, how do they do that? They set themselves apart. We're going to get more into detail about what that means later. But they set themselves apart and devote themselves now to the Lord and remove themselves for the time from those common things. But we'll go more into detail on that.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In a little bit.

[Caller/Guest]

Yep, yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But so when we talk about being unclean. Ceremonial unclean.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Not the moral kind, again, not sin, but just being unclean, we talk about that being unavoidable. Here is a short list.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And these are all from Leviticus and. Well, no, no, I'm sorry. There's one from Numbers, one from Deuteronomy.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But otherwise all from Leviticus.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Things that can make you unclean. Ceremonially unclean.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's like the lightning round here.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Well, no, because some of these we need to talk about a little.

[Caller/Guest]

I know, I know, I know. Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. So number one, touching something unclean, like you get the unclean sort of.

[Caller/Guest]

I don't.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Cooties is probably not the right word, but if it's Unclean. You become unclean by touching it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

If it's unclean and you touch it.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And this could be literally dirty. This could be something that's come into contact with a bodily fluid. This could be something that someone who is unclean sat upon this. Right. Like all kinds of ways, objects and things of the world could become unclean. You. You touch it, right. Now you're unclean.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, a related example. I mean, because, like, this would really fall under the first. But, you know, it's still made explicit. If you eat or drink something that has become unclean, that makes you unclean.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, well, here's. Here's why it's distinct. So, for example, you get up one bright sunshiny morning, and you take your earthen jar where you get your water, Right. Where you have your water, and you go to drink some water. And after you finish drinking the water, you look in there and you see that there are three dead crickets in it.

[Caller/Guest]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, it's unclean.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It has dead crawling things in it. So you just drank unclean water. You're now unclean.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Lots of other ways that can happen.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You find out the food you just ate was prepared by someone who was ceremonially unclean.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

On and on and on and on and on.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Something floating in your soup.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. So that's the distinction. Either drinking or just touching something. Like touching something could be touching fabric.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You could, you know, and doesn't require you to eat it. So you pick up a loaf of bread, you break it open, you see it's moldy inside. Even if you didn't eat it, you're unclean from touching it.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So that's why those are two separate ideas.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But you can see how. Just that just those two. If those two were the only ways to become unclean, you could see how you would end up becoming ceremonially unclean fairly frequently.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, probably. Probably almost every day. I mean, on some level.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But wait, there's more.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But wait, there's more. Yeah. Okay, so like, if you butcher even an animal that is clean, like a clean animal. If you butcher a clean animal. And that's. Right. Isn't that because you're touching a dead.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Body, you're touching the carcass? Yeah, yeah. So you kill a lamb, you kill a goat.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You kill a cow, which are perfectly acceptable to eat. Not an unclean animal.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Clean animal. But you're the one who butchers it.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

From doing all the butchering, draining the blood, getting the Blood on yourself, doing everything involved. You're now unclean. Ceremonially unclean until evening. And you need to wash before you go and. And present yourself to the Lord.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's. I was.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's sort of touching. An unclean thing. But you started out with a clean thing.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And then you made it unclean by killing it. Yeah, yeah. We have. We have a suggestion in the YouTube chat about one way that you could end up eating an unclean thing. Uber eats, apparently.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, well, I think Bito Honey is an unclean thing. So absolutely repulsive.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Do those still exist even?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I think so.

[Caller/Guest]

Wow.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In some dark corner of the. By the way, since I'm looking at.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The YouTube chat here, actually, we have a decently international audience once again. We do have people from places like Hawaii and Texas.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And you realize Hawaii and Texas are part of the United States, though.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know, I know. I was gonna say.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But also.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Norway, Brazil, Bavaria.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And, you know, other Americans, like Florida, Some neighbors, actually. Walnut Port, Pennsylvania, which is about 35 minutes from me or so is that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

A port where they brought in walnuts, or is it a port that just happened?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I don't know why it's called that. It. Like, it's not. It's not. I'm trying to remember, does the Lehigh river actually run through there, or was.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It founded by some dude whose last name was Walnut?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's probably what it is. One commenter says parents of toddlers must have just never been clean. I mean, that seems likely.

[Caller/Guest]

You'D be.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Doing the mikveh every day.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, I think toddlers themselves are innately unclean.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Just toss the kids in the mikvah before they go to bed at night. Oh, someone from the Netherlands.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Portland, Oregon. See, I don't know that that's actually America.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, it is. It's just America in the 90s.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, that's true.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The dream of the 90s is alive in.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Alive in Portland.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. All right, some more things that make you unclean. Giving.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Giving.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Giving birth. Giving birth makes you unclean.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Which is not a bad thing.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No. I mean, again, these are not sinful acts, everybody. That's so important. These are not sinful acts.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Obviously, by saying it makes you unclean.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Giving birth.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is. By saying this makes you unclean. They are not saying there's something sinful about giving birth.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, right, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Very obviously, giving birth is a good thing.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Not an involuntary.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But also, obviously, if you've been there, right. And seen one happen.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

A baby being delivered, you need to clean up.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I have seen this with my own eyes four times.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. I always figured they ought to take pictures of the baby, like right then with like the goo all over them.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know, my fourth child.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And then you could show it to future suitors, right? They show up to date. Your daughter could be like, have you seen her baby picture?

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, my daughter, we will be accepting and reviewing together stacks of applications. But my fourth child was born inside his. His sack. What they would used to call a call birth. C, A, U, L, which I'm told is like 1 in 80,000 births. Like, it's crazy. And, you know, there's all kinds of medieval legends and stuff about that sort of thing being. Being born with that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But by the way, I want to clarify a misconception. If anyone heard what you just said and thinks that you're just super protective of your daughter. It's not that. It's. You want to negotiate the bride price? Porc, no less dose. You're offering me how many goats? This is an insult, sir.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know the guy that was just here before you offered this, you know, it's got a little bidding going on.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Young Ram. A kid.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, I mean, I'm sure she will walk away a very rich woman.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah. Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Giving birth. Also various skin conditions. I mean, this is what's behind the gospel of the ten lepers, right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Yeah. But also, you have to remember, leprosy in the Old Testament is not always Hansen's disease.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, it could be a lot of different things. It's just sort of like a word that means skin disease, it seems. Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And Hanson's disease is not having. Mmm bop stuck in your head also, by the way, actual horrible.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I feel like that we should use that term for that also.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, it is spelled differently, but yeah. So I guess it's open in print.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know, I think one of those young men is now an orthodox deacon.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, that is Jesus.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I do not know the name. The names of the Hansons.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, me neither.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Having been an already adult male at the time of their.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The time of their bopping scene.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I think this is the first time the Hansens have been mentioned on this show. I'm pretty sure on here on episode 108.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I don't even think I mentioned Stan Hansen on here. Anyway, so. Yeah, very skinky dishes. Mildew in your house.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah. Yep.

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Better start cleaning that shower more often. Just saying. Clr. Get it going in there. And now here's the parental advisory. Seminal emissions.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right from that yeah. Which, I mean, it doesn't matter how you got there. It still renders you.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Ritually.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There are different times.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

If it's in the context of sexual relations with one's wife, you're just unclean until sundown.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In the Torah, if it's outside of that context or if it is any kind of discharge other than a seminal discharge from the same anatomy, then you're unclean for a week.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Here you go, guys.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The subject of. Fine. In the state of Mississippi, the.

[Caller/Guest]

You mentioned that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And this is deliberately paralleled. This is deliberately paralleled with. By deliberately paralleled, I mean it's in the same chapter of Leviticus. Leviticus. Chapter 15. They're back to back. And the language is directly parallel to make this point. That is directly paralleled with menstruation.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Which, I mean, it's funny. There are some people who are super concerned about enforcing some of these things with regards to women and do not seem to have realized that it is exactly paralleled for men.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes. In both.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Directly and deliberately so.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And the idea in both cases is that procreation didn't happen. That's not evil. That's not a sin.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But it is. It does render one unclean.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Getting pregnant does not render you unclean. Being pregnant does not make you unclean. Eating roadkill. Bad news, fellow Southerners, I was gonna.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Say also Alaskans, you know, they. A lot of Alaskans are on a big waiting list to get a moose.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Let's be real. There's a lot of deer hunters in the Midwest who are using a Chevy, not a rifle box.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, it is said that they won't let you graduate from St. Tikon's Seminary if you don't kill at least one thing with your car.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, I did not while I was at Saint Tikkas, but I also took as far as you degree from there. No, there were a couple times when I slowly on that hill leading to Carbondale, I rolled up slowly on a deer standing in the road, but avoided it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I think I caught a squirrel or two. I'm not sure, to be honest.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Did you eat them?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I did not eat them.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay, good, because you would have been unclean. That's in Leviticus 2. When we get out of Leviticus in numbers 19. Burying the dead makes you unclean. And this is literally a good thing to do. This is literally something you're commanded to do.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

A commandment from God.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And finding someone who is dead who you're not related to and giving them A proper burial is considered a great good deed, but it also makes you unclean because you're handling a human corpse.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Don't tell me you're going to handle a human corpse and not wash your hands.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And then finally, just in case you thought you could avoid all of those, Deuteronomy 23, 13 and 14, defecating, there you go.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Some more bodily functions makes you unclean.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And there were groups in the first century, including apparently some of the people at Qumran, though not all of them, who were so serious about not doing anything unclean on the Sabbath that they would not defecate on the Sabbath.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wow, that's dedication in a weird way.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, but even they knew that it was just unclean and not evil. It's not a sin to go to the bathroom, right? It's going to the bathroom. But employees must wash their hands before returning to work, right? You have to wash yourself. You have to clean yourself after that. Insert another tushy bidet commercial here. But you clean yourself after you defecate, right? Because you're unclean if you don't. And let's look at these, right, Collectively, not just the last one, but.

[Caller/Guest]

What.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We'Re talking about here is these things that happen that you can't avoid, right? But for this to enter into the realm of sin, right? This can become a sin issue if you attempt to approach God for worship after doing one of these things without cleansing, without washing, without purifying yourself. So, yes, someone who defecates it, doesn't clean themselves and then wants to go into the tabernacle.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Or a woman who menstruates and doesn't clean herself and wants to go to the, to the tabernacle or.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Or the skin condition, right? Went on and on and on, right? The refusal to clean yourself properly afterwards and the approach to God, then it becomes a sin issue because you've brought uncleanness into the presence of a holy God, right? You failed to consecrate yourself. You failed to set yourself apart before worship. This is the idea of entering into worship, entering into the presence of God in this way that is casual and common and unserious. See Nadab and Abihu and other biblical examples. That's where it becomes a sin issue. But in and of itself, assuming you then take the next step of cleaning yourself and preparing yourself before you come back to worship God after doing these common things, common everyday things. There's not, there's no sin issue here. Now, someone you know who you are, you know exactly who you are is hearing this and saying, actually, I looked up some of those things in the Torah you mentioned, and they say when you re enter the life of the community, you re enter the religious life. When you come back to the tabernacle or to the temple, you have to offer a sin offering. So.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Ha. Checkmate. Father Stephen DeYoung.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Ha.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Clearly those things are sinful in some way.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But here's what we're not thinking about when we make that argument. Here's what we're not thinking about. We're not thinking about the fact that if you've been unclean for some period of time.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You've been in a state of uncleanness for some period of time. That means by virtue of being unclean, you've been separated at least partially from the life of the community, from the worship of God for a long time or a short time. But there's been some period of time. Guess what you've done during that period of time? Sinned.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And since you've been cut off from that community and religious life, you haven't been able to engage in the kind of repentance and in the regular cycle of offerings during that time in which you were unclean, because you were excluded from that by being unclean. So now that you're being restored.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The sin offering is about those sins and that repentance that couldn't take place for the last, however long, 7 days, 10 days, 40 days that you were separated from the community and its life.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Because you're going to sin every day.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. And those aren't the only separations. Right. We also have to think about people going on long journeys.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We need to think about people going to war and everything they come back with.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

After that long separation.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

When you have these extended period away periods away, there is this process, and part of that process is at the time that you are away dealing with the things you've done, not all of which were great. And so that's why the sin offering gets incorporated. But ultimately, as we said, and this gets made clear in Leviticus, chapter 7, the only place sin enters is with the person who refuses, who wants to remain in an unclean state and yet approach God in that state.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. So in Leviticus 7, 1921, we read this. Flesh that touches any unclean thing shall not be eaten. It shall be burned up with fire. All who are clean may eat flesh, but the person who eats of the flesh, of the sacrifice, of the Lord's peace offerings, while an uncleanness is on him. That person shall be cut off from his people. And if anyone touches an unclean thing, whether human uncleanness or an unclean beast or any unclean detestable creature, and then eats some flesh from the sacrifice of the Lord's peace offerings, that person shall be cut off from his people. So it's almost like saying, if you're in an excommunicated state and you go and commune, like this would be the kind of the analog of in the church, then you're anathema, like thrown out.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There's a process of restoration. There's an appropriate process of approaching God. And remember what the whole Torah is aimed at making that approach safe for sinful people.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And you can't sort of circumvent or end run or ignore that process and.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The reality because it's not just like a bunch of arbitrary rules, you know, it's.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's the things when God says, this makes you unclean, or, you know, especially this makes you morally unclean. He's describing reality as it actually is. He's not saying, okay, I've made a bunch of rules and I'm going to zap you guys if you don't follow them. It's. If you do this thing, then you are unclean and you need to be cleaned up before you can do, you know, come be with me and eat. Eat the sacrifices, you know, in my presence.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right, right.

[Caller/Guest]

So.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right. Well, that is the first half of this episode on Ritual Purity in on the Lord of Spirits podcast. We're going to take our first break and we'll be right back.

[Narrator]

Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment to take your calls on the next part of the Lord of Spirits. Give them a call at 855-237-2346. That's 855-A- radio.

[Announcer]

During one of the darkest times in recent history, God gave us a saint. This saint had to be someone stubborn. Stubborn enough to outshine evil even when confronted with it face to face. But how did St. Maria become a person whom God could inspire, help and guide during such a dark time? How did she wrestle with her own temptations and allow Christ to grow brightly in her soul? Stubborn Love by Rita Thola is one book in three parts written for young people. Her Life tells the story of Mother Maria Skabstova of Paris from birth to death. The first section of the book is accompanied by graphic novel style illustrations to help the young reader imagine her Work, family, and adventures. Her writings comes next, a smattering of some of the notes and thoughts that shaped her. Your life is the final section where the reader is challenged to consider his or her place in the world, using Mother Maria's life and sayings as a springboard for journal entries and also some group study questions to answer. Pray for us, dear Mother Maria. You can find this book [e-mail] faith.com Again, that is store.ancient faith.com.

[Narrator]

We'Re back now with the Lord of Spirits with Father Andrew, Stephen Damick, and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Welcome back, everybody. It's the second half of this episode on Purity Ritual. Purity Ritual, impurity, cleanness, uncleanness on the Lord of Spirits podcast.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We need to pause briefly so I can attack our audience.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, go for it.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. So, like, look, you guys, nobody called in, right? I'm like, what is this half remembered palabrajat thing, right? No one calls in during that commercial. Super short AFR commercial, by the way. Once again, I googled it, right? It's a show called the right channel 1978 PBS show. Like, this is totally easy. I asked you people to call in and help me. I'm here fortnightly pouring out my heart and soul to you, and you can't even do a Google form. Really?

[Caller/Guest]

Really?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Someone asks if spam is unclean.

[Caller/Guest]

Which.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I think it must be because isn't it at least theoretically, mostly pork?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I'm not sure.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I'm not really sure either.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It is the spam goo across the top. A separate thing than the spam. Like, it could be the spam itself is clean, but the goo is unclean.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know, when I lived on Guam, I mean, spam honestly was a very common element in the island's diet. It's a big deal on Hawaii, too. Apparently, they love the spam.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I have heard that. That is true.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I don't. I have. No.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

From a lack of abundance of options.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, I mean, it's canned meat. You know, I don't have we ever had a. A listener from Guam. If you are on Guam right now and listening, please.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, don't even ask them.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

They don't care. Come on. I want to hear from Guamanians.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They don't care about us. We're just here. We're dancing monkeys here for their amusement. Not gonna lift a finger. I'm not so much angry as I am Disappointed in all of this.

[Caller/Guest]

Anyway. Yeah. Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right, where were we?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We're beginning the second half of the program, Father.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's right. Which actually isn't about spam. I know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No, not as such. I mean, spam is kind of anathema, but.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That'S not even really true. I. I gotta be honest here. I ate fried Spam now and then as a kid. I didn't mind it.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Fried on a sandwich. It was fine. Yeah, fine.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I've had no, I mean, I haven't had it in a long, long time, but when I was a kid living, you know, 13 degrees north latitude, I don't. I don't remember anything bad about it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Now, it's not as good as stake. Ems, you remember steakums?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, man. Although I have to say, living in the Lehigh Valley of Pennsylvania, scrapple is an amazing end.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, see, now you're going to like actual food. I'm talking about consumer mass market meat products.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, man.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Scrapple's actual food.

[Caller/Guest]

Food, right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, it's.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's all that's left over after you've, you know, taken out the meat and the oink.

[Caller/Guest]

It's.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's pretty much everything else. Plus, I don't know, oatmeal or something.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And since we're on the topic of childhood food and I'm airing grievances and my mother might actually be listening to this episode, you know, it was nasty. I don't know if your parents got in on this trend in the early 80s, this health food trend, but carob. Using carob instead of chocolate.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, I remember that. It was never, never as good as actual chocolate.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It was vile.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Never.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah, it was wild. I add to the fact that you think you're getting chocolate and so there's the whole epic disappointment.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes, right. I know. Good riddance.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Don't eat healthy, kids. It's not worth it. Anyway, see, that's going to be.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Going to the clip, you know, back to our show.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, that's right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like, seriously, they're going to be like, you can eat all this healthy food. You'll live to be 99. I'm like, yeah, 99 miserable years. Okay, so, yeah, so now we need to zoom in a little bit.

[Caller/Guest]

Okay.

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because we, we distinguished in our first half between sort of ceremonial or ritual uncleanness on the one hand, and on the other hand, moral uncleanness.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, we do have a caller, actually.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, okay. Let's hear the call.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, this is super relevant. So we Have a caller from. Well, at least this person's phone is from Alabama. You never know these days where people's phones are from, whether that's where they're really from. So. Georgia, are you there?

[Caller Georgia]

I am.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Is this Georgia Briggs?

[Caller Georgia]

Wait, no. Wrong podcast.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

See, Georgia was an actual Everybody Georgia. It was a different podcast. You tell them, Georgia.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I was a guest on another. Exactly. Thank you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

A big Michael Scott slamming on the table. Thank you. Anyway, sorry, sorry. You could tell I'm still a little traumatized by people, how people downplay my portfolio. So what's on your mind, Georgia?

[Caller Georgia]

Hi, fathers. So I've had a question for a long time, kind of multiple questions, but about the impurity of the ritual impurity of a woman after she's given birth and sort of with what's going on when she is. When she comes back to the church and there's a special prayer set and, and some of the language in that prayer sounds to an outsider or to a first timer kind of more like they're dealing with a sin impurity than a ritual impurity. And I don't know if that's a translation issue. And I. Part of my question also kind of. I realized recently that how I've been interpreting, you know, the hymn to the Theotokos without corruption that gave his birth to God, the Word. I've been misinterpreting that for about 10 years now. As, As a sin impurity thing. When I've asked a priest recently and he was saying, well, no, this has to do with her, you know, her physical state and giving birth without physical harm. So could you talk about more what's going on? You know, why, why is there, why is there this prayer for women when they come back? And how can we better understand, you know, what that prayer that the priest says is doing for that woman and making her ready to re. Enter the church.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, I mean, in a lot of ways, I think this is ground zero for a lot of the misunderstandings about ritual impurity as it continues to exist in the orthodox tradition. Like, there are people, I mean, I, you know, I said this at the beginning, but like, there are people who say, oh, we don't do that anymore. Like, and if, you know, if you have prayers that include that, like, that needs to be revised or whatever. And the truth is, of course, that Evkologian prayers, which is the kind of thing that you're talking about, I mean, the ev. Collian includes lots. Like, it's, like, it's all the kinds of prayers that a priest might Say, outside of the context of regular church services, typically, you know, so the efchologion includes this kind of thing and includes, you know, house blessings, et cetera, et cetera. But so there. I mean, there are various prayers that have been used at different times and places for this purpose, but a decent number of them do indeed include language of ritual impurity, you know, cleansing from uncleanness and forgiveness of sins. Right. I mean, that's. That's all there. And there are people that are like, oh, no, you can't. You can't say that. And I think it's because. It's precisely because people are conflating ritual uncleanness with moral uncleanness, you know, Right. As we said in the first half. Right. Like, moral uncleanness includes ritual uncleanness, but ritual uncleanness does not necessarily include moral uncleanness. You know, like. Like we said, you can become ritually unclean by burying your dad, you know, which you're. You're supposed to be doing. So, I mean, I think that.

[Caller/Guest]

You.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Know, what do the prayers actually do for the woman? And there's actually, there's two sets of prayers going on there in a churching, and this is one of those places where different Orthodox traditions do this a little bit differently. Like, there's the prayers said for the woman when she comes back, and then there are the prayers that are said to church the baby. Generally speaking, in the Russian tradition, the churching of the baby happens only after the baby's been baptized, whereas in, like, Greek and Antiochian, and I'm not sure which else traditions, those prayers happen are explicitly done before baptism, you know. Yeah. So, I mean, what do the prayers do? I mean, they do what they say they do, right? Like, literally. But I mean, the summary, I would.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Say on the tin.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, exactly. It does what it says on the tin. But I mean, to summarize it, though, I would say, like, okay, so a woman, when she gives birth, the tradition is that she stays home for 40 days. And it really is about staying home. I've known of some people, it's like, well, I can go everywhere but church. I'm like, I mean, if anyone has.

[Caller Georgia]

Had a baby, they know how nice it is to stay home.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right?

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, I always told people, and this is just. This is a pastoral call, but it's the tradition that I was given. I always told women that asked me about this kind of thing, because I'm not going around telling them now. This is what you must do. I would say, look, if you're out and about, you know, and especially if you're taking the baby places other than, like, medical appointments. Okay. If you're taking the baby places or whatever, then you should just go ahead and come to church and we'll do the prayers, you know, even if it hasn't been 40 days. I mean, the ideal is to stay home the whole time and, and really, you know, have that time.

[Caller Georgia]

Interesting.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know, but. But what it does is it. It, you know, so. So she's been. She's not been receiving communion for six weeks, you know, so she's not currently in communion. She's not excommunicated exactly. But she's been out of communion for, you know, more than the three Sundays that puts you out. So. But she hasn't committed a sin, you know, by, you know, by being away in this, in this context. But you still want a prayer to be said. So it's not like, oh, you have to come to confession because you had a baby. No, it's not that. It's okay, you've been out of communion, so let's bring you back into communion. And so therefore, it is about this cleansing from ritual uncleanness, you know.

[Caller Georgia]

Okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And for the baby, it's actually about welcome to church. You know, in the Greek and Antiochian traditions. Welcome to church. We're going to be baptizing you soon. That's basically a lot of what's going on. And we're offering you to God. You know, in the Russian tradition, it's, you know, you've just been baptized, and so we're offering you to God. That's my best understanding of that anyway. I mean, I certainly have thoughts with regards to, you know. Right. Which is without corruption. There's some translations that says without defilement. I'm like, stop it. She's not, you know, like women, other women are not defiled by having a baby.

[Caller Georgia]

Yeah, that was what was giving me a lot of difficulty for a long time with that particular him.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And I mean, I know I'm going on and on and Father Stevens being very patient, but, you know, he gets to monologue a lot in the show.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So I'm looking up old PBS shows from the late seventies. Oh, great.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Enjoy.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So have it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Good night. And so there's also. And now I'm about to just tell you what is my. Understand what I was told, actually. So, like, you'll often hear in Antiochian Church in the US More and more you'll hear without corruption, but in previous years you would hear without stain. Without stain. And My under. At least what I was told by an Arabic speaker, which. I am not an Arabic speaker. I know some Arabic, but not much. I was told by an Arabic speaker. Well, the translation in Arabic used to say effectively without corruption. But the Arabic word for corruption that was being used eventually became like a bad word. Like, it's not a. People would snicker, you know, when they heard it in church, because it was like a bad word. It had become. And so they switched it to another word in Arabic, which. Which gets translated then into English as stain, you know.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But it's like, well, look, in English, you know, none of these words are bad words, so let's use corruption. Although, of course. Of course, people. People often misunderstand corruption as moral corruption. Like we say, oh, that person's corrupt. But literally what corrupt means is.

[Caller Georgia]

Is broken apart, but like, without damage.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, exactly. And that's why we talk about, you know, relics being incorrupt if they're. That doesn't mean that human bodies are, you know, the human bodies that decay are evil. Right. They are corrupt. They're literally corrupt. But that means they're breaking down is what's happening. And so the tradition is that her birth giving didn't include that miraculous.

[Caller Georgia]

Wow.

[Caller/Guest]

You know.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So it doesn't mean that she did it without doing or, you know, having evil, because that suggests that every other woman that it's evil, it's super not, you know, but with every other woman, it is corrupt in that sense of breaking up, you know, I mean, that's just a physical reality.

[Caller Georgia]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So. Yes. Father Stephen, I don't. Did you find anything in those old PBS shows or.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, well, yeah. Debating how angry I want to make certain Russophiles, but, you know, it's pretty obvious they changed their practice historically.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like anybody who studied it, they changed their practice from the. The Byzantine practice. And it's pretty clear they did it because of some misunderstandings.

[Caller/Guest]

But.

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And yeah, not enough, I think, is. I don't think people realize enough. So this is. Part of this is going more directly to your question, even though it's not starting out there. But again, people don't read the Torah enough.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Amen.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

For example, they don't notice the fact that, hey, you know what, in the Torah, it was just firstborn males who were brought. Now it's everyone.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's everybody now.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. People don't even think about that, like, why that is. Because everyone in the church now has firstborn status. They're now a co heir with Christ They're a co inheritor. So women are firstborn sons in the church. There's no, like, second class.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like Christian in the church. Which is why the ancient church used to bring female infants into the altar. People freaking out all over the place, but co prop.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And that practice has been restored in significant parts of the Orthodox world.

[Caller Georgia]

I have heard that Father Thomas Hopka would do that. I don't know if that's true or not, but I was curious about that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Because the action is about an offering. The action is not about.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And infants haven't sinned yet.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, right, exactly. And, and, and I mean, this is the place where we're going to go get added, but we might as well just go full, full throttle here. But there's this idea, like I've heard people say, oh, well, boys should be brought into the altar during this ritual and not girls because someday they might get ordained. I'm like, excuse me, most of them are not going to be ordained.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's why they're altar boys, though. So if you don't want your son to get ordained, he shouldn't be an altar boy.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's right. It's not free babysitting, you guys.

[Caller/Guest]

It's not.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So they could look cute in their little robe.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, no. You know, so it has nothing to do with that. Because if you look at the actual prayers of churching of an infant, they don't say anything about ordination or anything like that. Like it's not at all. It's about offering this child to God.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because it's related to what we're going to celebrate on February 2nd.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Exactly.

[Caller/Guest]

Exactly.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The dedication of the firstborn.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Exactly.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And now everybody's firstborn. But likewise.

[Caller/Guest]

Right, likewise.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Not a lot of people are conversant in Leviticus, chapter 12, which is where we get exactly the procedure we follow.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That a woman is considered to be unceremonially unclean for 40 days after giving birth, which is this time of purification, restoration, healing, at which point she goes and presents herself and returns to the full regular life of the community. And at that point, just like anyone who's been away from the church for more than a month. Right. Anyone who's been away from that time, there's a sin offering.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Nazarites, when they took a Nazarite vow, which was that they were going to live at this higher standard of holiness for some period of time, at the conclusion of living at a higher standard of holiness than everyone else, they offered a sin offering.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

How about that?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because they were now no longer going to be set apart. They were going to be reintegrating back into the community. They've been away from the community. So those prayers are just related to. That's it. Now, you don't have to bring two birds with you. I don't have to wring their necks and fling the blood all over the place.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Which is nice. Yes, right. It's nice.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

A lot more sanitary.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But I kind of like little birds.

[Caller Georgia]

You know, the iconographers appreciate it when we don't do that, so.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, right. Well, yeah, it would get splattered all over you, too. So, you know.

[Caller Georgia]

All right, well, it makes a lot more sense.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. So that's why. And then again, people don't understand. And this is a general problem. See, again, all you folks out there who think I'm always straw manning and being mean and mocking Protestants and Roman Catholics, here's another place where I'm going to be self critical.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

A lot of Orthodox folks, even Orthodox scholars or people who present themselves as such in this or that field, when they see something like this liturgically or in our tradition, they respond by just saying, oh, well, that's not right. That doesn't fit with our Orthodox theology. So they go digging in the crates to find some, you know, ancient Bulgarian version of the prayer that they can translate in a way that sounds better to them or something. They don't explore why they don't say, oh, that's weird. Why do we do that? And if they did more of, hey, that's odd. Why do we do that then? Instead of trying to change these things, they would learn from these things.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Which is what we should all be doing. We should be learning from our tradition, not trying to make it conform to some idea we have in our head of what pure Orthodoxy is.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, well, Georgia, you got a big, long set of rants from the two of us. I don't know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This episode is one long Festivus.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, thank you.

[Caller Georgia]

That's very helpful.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Thanks for calling. Thanks for calling. Nice to speak with you again.

[Caller Georgia]

Thank you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right, everybody, go out and buy Georgia's book. It's called Icon. Yeah, she's got a couple of books, actually, but.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, she wrote that book.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's great.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. I should know who people are, probably.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, go buy our book, everybody. All right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

First I'd have to answer that greatest of all questions. Who am I?

[Caller/Guest]

Who are you?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Who are we? Can we go over all that again?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You and you are me and we are we. And we are all together.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Indeed. Indeed.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So we got. We have another call, actually. We have. We have Father Emmanuel calling from Reading, Pennsylvania.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So to tell us we're wrong.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Father Emmanuel, welcome to Lord Spirits podcast.

[Caller Father Emmanuel]

Thank you. So my question has to do with everything you talked about in the first half and that you were just talking about just now. How does all this correlate and maybe you're going to get to this with who's allowed in the altar? Because many people, some people maybe will say that women can't go in the altar kind of as a blanket statement because of menstruation and related things.

[Caller/Guest]

But.

[Caller Father Emmanuel]

And then there's that can of worms of women's ordination and all that stuff. But women's monasteries, nuns, et cetera, so why not other women in other contexts?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And then.

[Caller Father Emmanuel]

About the purification in that you were talking about in the first half. How does this hold for male clergy, major and minor clergy, and even lay altar servers, which I understand are not really supposed to be a thing in our tradition. But what are the times when we have to purify ourselves and how, aside from the ritual hand washing that accompanies the vesting prayers.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, great question. I mean, some of this.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You're obviously tracking with us. Right. Like, there is the hand Washington.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Caller/Guest]

But.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And, and also, of course, you know, I mean, just a little bit of spoiler for something a little bit later in the episode. But like, you're supposed to. Clergy are supposed to abstain from marital relations the night before the Divine Liturgy is to be celebrated, you know, so. Yeah. And, you know, like the. The commandments of Saint Basil the Great to priests, which are in the front of a lot of different editions of Liturgicon. And talk about being at peace with everyone. You know, like, there's all kinds of stuff like this that are these kinds of acts of purification. I'll kick it over to Father Stephen for a lot of the rest of this, but I do want to mention, right, like, a lot of these debates about women going behind the altar, it has nothing to do with women's ordination. That's the problem is it's been conflated with that question because, like, there was a point when the empress would go into the altar area to commune and no one was asking whether or not she should be ordained. Like, it had nothing to do with ordination at all. You know, so Father Steven, now Nestorius.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Wanted to throw her out. That's what started the whole chain.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Got him into so much trouble.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's a heretic, an arch heretic. Who wanted to throw her out.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Although I do with Nestorius especially, I do kind of get the vibe sometimes that he bumbled into it.

[Caller/Guest]

Hmm.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like he just started making arguments and got backed into a corner and decided to sort of like a Calvinist, just double down.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Just like bite down really hard.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Just. No, that is what I'm saying, you know. Oh, is that what you're saying?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Just call everybody's bluff. But yeah, the rule with the altar is no one is allowed behind the iconostasis.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Unless they're there for a particular purpose that they've been blessed to do so by the bishop. That's the rule.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

Right.

[Caller Father Emmanuel]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So I don't go and hang out back there and I tell my parishioners this. I don't go hang out back there. I don't sit back there and read, like, while I'm waiting for people to show up.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And you shouldn't do that. Right. And so no one has like a right to go back there based on their biological sex or something.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

People who think they have a right to serve at altar or to be ordained need to read about Korah again in the Book of Numbers. It doesn't go so well for them when he makes that argument.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But, and so, yeah, in a, in a women's monastery, there are women who are blessed to go back there and do certain things by the bishop. So that's fine. And no one else should be back there. Part of the problem too, I guess it's self critical night is a lot of, A lot of actual parishes I've been in are far too casual about the. I've even been guilty of this and I've been trying to crack down on it. Far too casual about the sanctuary in terms of people coming back there to ask questions during the service or slip somebody a note or you know what I mean? Like people coming in and out, people talk, having conversations back there that don't need to be had there, that could be had over the vestry or outside the iconostasis. You know, we were a little casual about it. And the more kind of casual we are about it, the less clear it is to everyone there that this is a holy place. And this going back is, I mean, what we've been saying on this show since it became potentially dangerous.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Spiritually and something that should be undertaken with, with, with due reverence. Father Andrew addressed sort of the, the, the preparation aspect for clergy and the, the being clean. I mean, Toshi isn't actually paying us to Advertise their product. I'll take their money.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wow.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But, yeah, I mean, even I'm thinking that, like the Antiochian Archdiocese, at least our priest guide, one of the first things it says is that the priest showing up to serve a service should present himself clean.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You know, vestments clean and in good repair. Right. I mean, that, that, that. That stuff is literally there.

[Caller/Guest]

Right, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so, you know, that that's not something that. I think it's actually clearer in the case of clergy that it sometimes is across the board how that this clean, unclean distinction has been kept. Because, of course, just like in the Old Testament, clergy are called to a higher level of holiness. You wouldn't know it to look at me, but clergy in general are a higher level of holiness than the average layperson. And so that makes it a little more clear we have more things to point to that is obvious to a layperson.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah. Yep.

[Caller Father Emmanuel]

So you mentioned a bit ago about altar servers being like, priest training ground. I mean, is that the only reason that we have male altar servers and not female altar servers.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Pretty much going on?

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, it's not like it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They didn't have seminaries for most of the churches.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

History.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I was just saying that's how you learned the services.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I don't recall. Like, I do know that, for instance, the prayers, at least in the Russian tradition, for making a reader, actually include the line, you know, reader is the first degree of the priesthood, you know, and with references to the possibility of reaching a higher degree or whatever. But I mean, that's the thing about a lot of these kinds of practices of the church is that we just have the rubrics for doing the thing. There's no, like, marginalia saying, and this is why we do this. Right. But, but, but, yeah. I mean, that is the explanation that makes the most sense to me is just. Is that. And I mean, and honestly, I don't know when the practice of having boys serve in the altar began, but my understanding is that in most of church history was never boys as a grown man.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Now, now, given we've raised the age of when someone is a grown man also.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But yeah, sure, sure.

[Caller/Guest]

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But, yeah. But, yeah. And that was how they would learn the services.

[Caller/Guest]

Right, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They would learn. Oh, this is when we sense this is what the priest does.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because the average parishioner couldn't see what was going on back there.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, that too.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Especially not in detail.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Caller Father Emmanuel]

Okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right. Thanks for calling, Father. Nice to talk to you.

[Caller Father Emmanuel]

Thank you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All Right. Okay. I think we're gonna talk about Cain, huh? How does Cain figure into this, besides being apparently your favorite kind of chicken?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Delicious chicken tenders, fast service. I'm doing all the free commercials tonight.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. So, yeah, before I got the calls, I was starting to say we talked in the first half about this distinction between moral uncleanness and ceremonial uncleanness, and the fact that moral uncleanness includes ceremonial uncleanness.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so people may have in their heads, okay, you've got peanut butter and chocolate. You get your peanut butter and my chocolate. Now we've got Reese's.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But the ceremonial uncleanness that is attached to moral uncleanness. We're making what sounds at first like a fine distinction here, but I think you'll see it as we go through this. The kind of ceremonial uncleanness that is attached to moral uncleanness is subtly different, as one might expect.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, they have the same concepts of being cut off from eating, sacrifice from approaching God, but they're not the same thing.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But it is a different kind of ceremonial uncleanness in nature and in duration. And that's what we're going to talk about now here in this second half. And so sort of the archetypal, morally unclean person, the archetypal sinner from the Old Testament as far as Second Temple Judaism is concerned, and we see this reflected in the New Testament is Cain. Cain. And of course, I mean, Cain who killed his brother Abel, not Kwai Chang. Cain who walked the earth in the old days.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Thank you, grasshopper.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But Cain is this archetypal figure. And as we mentioned before on the show, the word sin occurs first in the story of Cain in Genesis chapter four. So what Adam does is a transgression of God's commandment. And through that, sin comes into the world in Genesis 3. But sin itself is first mentioned and first does something. It sort of first appears as such in the story of Cain when God says to Cain, sin is crouching at your door.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It wants to master you. You must master it. We've talked before on the show, but hey, every episode is someone's first. The verb that's translated crouching there and is translated bizarrely in the Greek, is actually an Akkadian word. That's why when they went to translate it into Greek, they didn't know what it meant, because it's not actually a Hebrew word. It's an Akkadian word. And Akkadian was long gone by that, by the third century B.C. in terms of Alexandrian Jewish rabbis and their linguistic knowledge. But that's true. The King James is where we get the crouching. That word is a word that in Akkadian that was used to describe these demons that they believed would crawl out of cracks in the earth and sort of roam the land. And so that's the depiction of sin there as this force. But Cain is not just sort of, oh, he's really bad. He's a really bad guy. He's a really bad guy. And there are consequences. There are consequences of the moral uncleanness that he wallows in as a bad guy. So a good place to go for this. And when I say this, I'm saying this is not right. Obviously, Genesis 4 doesn't lay this out verbatim, but we're talking about, and we're going to be talking about here, the understandings from the Second Temple period, how they're reading the Cain story, and then these understandings are reflected in the New Testament, how they read and understand Cain. How they read and understand Cain, particularly as the morally unclean person.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so one good example of that is the Book of wisdom in chapter 10. Now, okay, look, I'm calling it the Book of Wisdom. And here's why I'm calling it the Book of Wisdom, because I know there's somebody out there again, called the Wisdom of Solomon, and Solomon wrote it. And you're a lib if you don't think that Solomon wrote it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay, how did you just do comic book guy voice? Comic book store guy voice?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So, okay, look, we need to talk here. Okay? Lots of things in the Bible are referred to as Solomon, like the Book of Proverbs. Guess what? Solomon didn't write the whole Book of Proverbs. You know who says that? The Book of Proverbs.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The Book of Proverbs.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

To say it's in there that, you know, this is a proverb of, so.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Parts of it written by other people. Okay. But it just gets referred to as one of the works of Solomon. Okay. Wisdom traditions are connected to Solomon. The Book of Wisdom was written in Greek the first century BC or possibly even the first century ad.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Isn't it?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Don't the oldest comments on that book consider it to be part of the New Testament?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, that's what I was about to say. The earliest church fathers who refer to the Book of Wisdom at all refer to it as part of the New Testament. Okay? So they knew when it was written and that it was written in Greek. They didn't think Solomon literally wrote it. So if you Want to be more orthodox than the church fathers if you think you know better than them. Because you got a Western Bible that calls it the wisdom of Solomon and you know, therefore Solomon wrote it. Or you're a lib. Have fun with yourself.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, there's nothing wrong with calling it the wisdom of Solomon, like, because wisdom traditions are connected with Solomon and that's cool.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. First and second Samuel. Now, I know you call those first and second kingdoms because you're being super orthodox, but first and Second Samuel, guess what? Not written by Samuel. Samuel dies in 1 Samuel 23.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Just because somebody's name is not a book of the Bible doesn't mean they actually wrote every word of it.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And no one has ever thought so.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay, back to cain. Wisdom chapter 10.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

This is the part that I've read the book of Wisdom, but this part I did not remember this. It says, when an unrighteous man departed from her. And the her there is wisdom, because it's talking about wisdom. When an unrighteous man departed from her, in his anger he perished, because in rage he killed his brother. So this is a reference to Cain. When the earth was flooded because of him, Wisdom again saved it, steering the righteous man by a paltry piece of wood. So the flood is blamed here on Cain.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, it's his fault. His fault has to be purified from his evil.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, right. I mean, we'll talk a little bit more about. Wait, how do you connect those dots?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You know, like, where is Cain translation wise? I know your translation there had when an unrighteous man. But it's actually what it literally says there is when the unrighteous.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, nice.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like the unrighteous one.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So that's what Cain is being called.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And yes, the flood was to get rid of the evil that he spread everywhere. Wisdom, Chapter 10 in general, the reason there's that departed from her wisdom. Wisdom, chapter 10 is very similar in a lot of ways to Hebrews chapter 11. The way Hebrews chapter 11 goes through with faithfulness, like, goes through the history, biblical history, from the perspective of faithfulness. Wisdom 10 goes through it from the perspective of wisdom.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, cool.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So that's why in verses three and four, we're talking about Cain. But it continues, right? Yeah, yeah. And so referring to him as the unrighteous one seems to have been a common thing in the Second Temple period. Josephus and his Antiquities Book 1 refers to him the same way. You can read section 53 through 66 for all his Cain stuff.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But Calls it the most evil.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. I mean, one of the things that's cool to me is like, so there is this. This tradition which is not explicit in scripture itself, but this tradition of Noah as the preacher of righteousness.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So, like, it is explicit in the new.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, it is. Oh, excuse me.

[Caller/Guest]

Where.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Where is that?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

St. Peter would like a word with you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

There you go. Okay. It's not explicit in the Old Testament.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So Noah. You know, the idea that Noah is preaching to those around him before the.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Flood comes and they all hate him.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Warning him, mourning them. It's not just, oh, look at that weird dude. Weird dude building a gigantic boat in his front yard. You know, he's basically saying, repent because the end is near.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And I can't even. I can't even refer to the Bill Cosby routine anymore because it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like the unrighteous one.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know, but. But. So Josephus contrasts Noah as the preacher of righteousness with Cain as the preacher of evil. Like, this idea that Cain is still around at this point. Like. Like, he's like, evil grandpa.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Deliberately encouraging them to do evil.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

His children and grandchildren and whoever else teaching evil. And so, I mean, like, this is. When you have that picture, then you're like, oh, so that's why wisdom describes him as being the one responsible for the flood. Like, he's going around as like, the apostle of evil.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Caller/Guest]

You know. Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Go around telling everybody to be gay and do crimes. He was the first zoomer. Who have I not alienated so far tonight? Let me know and I'll try to catch them at some point before we're done. Yeah. And so we have these sort of dueling. I believe you referred to it earlier as an epic rap battle. Yes, like an epic rap battle of Cain and Noah.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And of course, in the genealogy of Cain, that is in scripture. Right. We see how that sort of culminates in Lamech, who's, you know, polyamorous and takes revenge for small slights.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And particularly sort of like Philo and Josephus, both of them, with this idea of sort of the continuing corruption and evil growing in the world as a result of Kane sort of producing more of it. Point to Tubal Cain inventing metallurgy as well. This is basically. He has refined murder.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

As if Cain was like, well, yeah, I had to hit him with a rock. Like, what? How many times? Right. Like, there's got to be a more efficient way.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like, let's work on some murder tech.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Here, you guys, for us, to kill each other for you to kill men and take their stuff. So, right. What are we gonna do?

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Metallurgy, weapons.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And you really see this beginning in scripture itself with the way Cain is cursed in Genesis chapter four. If you compare that to the curse that is enunciated to Adam. Right? So we've talked about this on the show before, but Adam is told cursed is the ground because of you.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So there's sort of. There is this evil in the world, the world itself. The rest of the creation is corrupted by your sin.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Whereas Cain is told you are cursed from the ground. Adam's curse means he's going to have to use the sweat of his brow, blood, sweat and tears, to bring forth food out of the soil. Cain is told his curse means he won't be able to get food out of the soil.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like wild animals will attack him. He will not be able to grow crops.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like he is completely alienated from the created order by the stain of what he has done, by the moral uncleanness that he has contracted. And so if you compare them, the curse that's enunciated to Cain is a lot more like what God says to the serpent in Genesis chapter three than it is like what he says to his father Adam.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So this is a different kind of moral uncleanness we're talking about here. And as we said in the first half, this is associated with murder. This is one of the big ones, Right. With blood. And so the word that's used in Greek by these Second Temple era authors that does not actually occur in the New Testament itself is agos alpha yama omicron sigma.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Or agos.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Not aggies.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It sounds so barbaric when you. When you spell it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That way.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Which I mean. Yeah. So what is. What does agos mean then?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Technically speaking, it means accursed.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It is the opposite of pure.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And I looked this up, like, apparently some etymologists think that there is a link with agios, which means holy. Not all agree, but apparently that is a reading that some give of the origin of this word. And so, like, if something's accursed, the opposite of pure, like it's sort of permanently kicked out. You know, let him be accursed. You know, anathema. Right. Like, it's just out, out, out. Whereas agyos means holy. It means set apart for, you know, a particular purpose. And so it's like they're both things that are. So both agos and agyos, which even if they're not etymologically related, makes for great pun in Greek. They are sort of like mirror opposites of each other. One is the good way of being set apart and the other is the dark version of being set apart, thrown out, really.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. And this represents a kind of unclean status for moral crimes that in the extreme cases like Cain, can be permanent.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Why does that reflect itself in terms of nature with Cain? Well, we're just coming off of Genesis 1 and 2. The creation is created as a temple by God.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Mmm, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So this expresses itself in him being alienated from the created order. And these kinds of moral uncleanness that could result in this permanently ceremonial unclean status are sort of these major acts like killing your brother, killing a family member, gross sacrilege.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So Josephus gives an example of a group of priests who murdered another group of priests in the temple.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, that's right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

At one point. So they shed blood in. In the temple.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so that makes. Meant that they were permanent, they could never be priests again, they could never serve again.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Until their dying day. And Philo talks about how any act of murder or bloodshed makes someone permanently unable to perform sacred functions. A lot of this is drawing on the example of King David, right, Who was not. When he was not allowed to build the temple, he was not allowed to serve in it. He was allowed to build it because of the bloodshed.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And these are instances where, I mean, Cain, we have no evidence whatsoever, we have no traditions whatsoever that Cain ever repented, but David certainly did and serves as an example of repentance. But as in David's case, the moral violation, the sin could be forgiven. It's not that God can't forgive the sin, right? But that ritual impurity remains.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That ritual impurity remains and is permanent in terms of barring them from certain sacred functions and certain coming to certain closeness with God. That is a permanent sort of state that can be contracted. So the moral uncleanness, the sin involved in moral uncleanness and the level and the depth of that sin sort of changes the nature of the attached ceremonial uncleanness. So the kind of ceremonial uncleanness attached to moral uncleanness is not. We're not just talking about regular ceremonial uncleanness, which is the common thing, right? It's just common. There's no herbatism. This is a sort of consequence of sin. This being barred from that is a consequence of sin. It's. See, it's hard to use English words because, like Sacred and profane originally just meant holy in common, right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, I mean, like profane literally means outside the temple, right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so we have to profane in the sense that we talk about profanity maybe, right? Like that this is something that's incompatible. You have contracted a state that is a permanent state that cannot then come into, into the presence of God, at least in this life. Because in a normal case, right, Our normal case is you go, you sin, you repent and do everything involved with repentance, and then you come and offer sacrifice and you're restored. The sacrifice is really the celebration of the restoration. It's not the repentance itself. And if you don't have the repentance, then the sacrifice is meaningless. Scripture is pretty clear. In fact, God will reject that sacrifice if there's not repentance attached to it. But offering that sacrifice requires ceremonial cleanness.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So in most cases, once you've completed the process of repentance, then you can wash and you can become ceremonially clean again, even though you contracted that ceremonial uncleanness through sin. But in these extreme cases, right, because that ritual or ceremonial impurity is permanent in this life.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You can't go and offer the sacrifice that would end that period. You remain. So in the way this was understood in the second Temple Jewish world, like by Josephus and Philo, who are talking about this and other authors who are talking about this, is that the person's death, the person dying, is what brings about what we would call absolution. What we in Christian church circles would call absolution.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So sort of that moral uncleanness, the end of it, what removes it is the person's physical death. Keep that idea in mind when you read St. Paul saying, talking about handing someone over to Satan for the destruction of their body and the salvation of their soul.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That idea, and this is reflected in our own canons, where there are certain sins that are considered so severe that you're functionally excommunicated until your deathbed.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, people might be surprised to learn that that's in a bunch of the canons.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, it's. Now that's not. The canons are not self applying, Right. You know, they have to be applied by, by the bishop, really.

[Caller/Guest]

But.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But that is what the canons say. In many cases there are certain ones that says they're excommunicated until they're about to die.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And you could imagine horrific things someone could do.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Where anyone would think that was appropriate.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's not. This isn't prescribed by the canons for the kind of things that people normally do. This is very extreme cases.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And you have to remember for a lot of the church's history, everyone was born into the church and baptized into the church.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So people who today we would call sociopaths or psychopaths, people who would do these horrific things were probably baptized into the Orthodox Church when they were infants, if they happened to have been born in the Eastern Roman Empire.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So there were people who were Christians who would go and do these horrific things. Now, obviously, they didn't do them as Christians, but they're technically within the church. And so the Church would have to have ways of dealing with that. And so you do this horrific thing. We don't have this that much in the US because the kind of people who do these horrific things usually aren't very religious. You know, Jeffrey Dahmer, not super pious.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Guy Charles Manson was, I guess, religious in a weird way. Certainly wasn't Orthodox.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so even if one of those figures converted to Orthodox Christianity, we'd be dealing with a different sort of situation.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Those canons are talking about someone who is an Orthodox Christian goes and does these horrific things and says, well, you know what? They need to remain part of the Church. But their repentance, the period of their repentance before they're restored is going to be the rest of their natural life. That's going to be the period of their repentance. And what we see there, and what the idea is behind this in the earlier Jewish view, too, is that this state of being ceremonially unclean, Right. Even if it's permanent for a long period of time or permanently is itself part of the repentance.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Accepting that is part of the repentance. Remaining at a little bit of a remove is part of the repentance. And David, we see this very clearly in the case of David.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

David gets cold. He can't build the temple. He accepts it, lays out all the plans, puts aside all the building materials, says, my son will do it.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But I'm not going to do it. And everything that happens in his family, everything that happens, he says, this is because of my sins. And I accept. He accepts all of the consequences.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Of what he's done. One of our problems in the modern world is that people, frankly, because they don't understand repentance, they think they have a right to be forgiven. And they think being forgiven means everyone just forgets about what they did.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Everything goes back to where it was before.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Some things that you can't fix in this life.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. And that's not right. Somebody embezzles money from the church, okay. They can't ever be the church treasurer again.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like you don't have to make them the church treasurer in order to forgive them. Someone harms a child, they're not allowed to be a Sunday school teacher. Right. This should be obvious.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And the fact that you don't make them one doesn't mean you're not. You haven't. They, you're not forgiving. That's not what that means at all.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Part of their repentance is accepting the fact that there are going to be certain things they can never do now because of what they've done in the past.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Accepting that and working to serve God within those strictures that they've brought upon themselves. That's part of what it means to repent. So the way that ceremonial uncleanness is typically dealt with, as we mentioned in the Torah and the Old Testament as a whole, is through ritual washing.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But that's not how you deal with moral uncleanness, for obvious reasons. You go to, you defecate, you touch a dead body, you touch some mildew, okay. You go and you wash.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But you kill somebody, you can't just go wash your hands, take a shower, take a good shower, get all the blood off of you. Okay, now we're good.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Obviously.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And that's a discontinuity, an area of discontinuity between the ritual washings in the mikvot in the Hebrew scriptures and baptism. Because baptism, even beginning with St. John, for the forgiveness of sins, for the remission of sins, is talking about washing away moral and moral ceremonial uncleanness.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's what's getting washed away by baptism. That's part of why it's only done once as opposed to those other ritual washings.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And if it is not dealing with those day to day things.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's a much greater thing too. Like it has the ability to wash away moral uncleanness.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. A murderer can be baptized and become a new person.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. And this is why certain sins, canonical impediments to different things like ordination, are dealt with differently if they happen before baptism rather than after baptism.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And I know some people look at those cases of the Orthodox Church and say, oh, you're saying if it wasn't in the Orthodox Church, it doesn't count? We're not saying anything like that. We're not saying anything like that. We're saying something about baptism and what baptism does, right?

[Caller/Guest]

Yep.

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All of that quote unquote counts, Right. But baptism represents a real putting off of the old man and putting on of the new man. It represents a real beginning of a new creation.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And there is nothing else after baptism that does that. See the book of Hebrews, right? There's nothing after baptism once you are a follower of Christ, right. Where once you're already a follower of Christ, you go and commit these actions. Now you deal with the period of repentance and the means of repentance as prescribed by the church because you are now in a different place, right? Spiritually, literally in a different place. You are now in the presence of God. You are now performing these actions in the presence of God. And we'll get into that more in our third half.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Exactly. All right. Thanks everybody. We'll be right back in just a second.

[Narrator]

Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment to take your calls on the next part of the Lord of Spirits. Give them a call at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[Announcer]

How do you explain the sacraments? It's easy to say they're mysteries that we have to take on faith or on the authority of tradition, but that is not how the early Christians understood them. To them and to all ancient people, the idea that physical objects had spiritual power was very intuitive, whereas modern people tend to find this difficult, bizarre or even unchristian. This is because we live in an era shaped by secularism, a way of viewing a world that's incompatible with sacramental thinking. Because secular ideas are at the heart of our culture, modern people tend to think in secular ways without realizing it. Even the most well meaning of us. How then do we live in, but not be of a secular culture? We need to understand the enchanted sacramental way that the early Christians viewed the world world. But we also need to understand secularism. What is it really? Where did it come from? And how does it influence how we think about religion? Journey to Reality Sacramental Life in a Secular Age breaks down these important issues in accessible, non academic language and is an ideal introduction for young readers, catechumens and seekers as well as for any Orthodox Christians who want to deepen their understanding of the sacraments.

Journey to Reality Sacramental Life in a Secular Age by Zachary Porcou, now [e-mail] Again, that is store.ancientfaith.com we're back now.

[Narrator]

With The Lord of Spirits with Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 855-237-2346. That's 8-55-AF-RADIO.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Welcome back, everybody. We're talking about ritual, uncleanness and so forth. And we just spent the second half discussing the character of moral ritual uncleanness and that it's not just simply ritual uncleanness plus a bad thing. It has a different character to it. All right, well, let's talk about atonement. What do you think, Father?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, so we're not gonna completely rehearse everything from our Day of Atonement episode.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Which I will say, by the way, is still one of my favorite episodes. I mean, that's a few years old now, but check out it's called It Might Be True. It's called the Priest Shall Make Atonement. Pretty straightforward. Again, does what it says on the tin. Yeah, yeah, Go listen to that, everybody.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So, yeah, we're not going to rehearse all, what, three hours of that or so you're the third half of this episode. But just to briefly cover a couple things we talked about there to lead into some things we're talking about here. We talked about there how the Day of Atonement was an additional annual ritual, additional to the regular cycle of sin offerings and peace offerings etc that were going on in the tabernacle all the time.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So this is an additional thing. And so that that sort of begs the question, well, okay, what sins still needed to be atoned for that wasn't being covered by the sin offerings? Because I thought that's what the sin offerings did.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so we talked about how the Day of Atonement is not concerned primarily with the sin per se in the sense that the sin offerings were ultimately the celebration of the end of the period of repentance and the reconciliation and the re entry into the community. But the Day of Atonement was concerned with sort of the taint, the uncleanness left behind by the sins of the people over the course of the year. And that sort of taint or spore that was left behind by the people's sins over the course of the year was especially dangerous within the sanctuary of the tabernacle and was especially dangerous on that day because that is the day that Yahweh, the God of Israel, chose to appear to manifest himself in the holy of holies. And of course, there could be no sin, no uncleanness.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In his presence. And so the Day of atonement ritual is a preparatory ritual to purify the sanctuary for that. We also, in that episode, talked about what is basically the topic of my previous dissertation, which again, I'm not going to recap the hundreds of pages, hundreds and hundreds of footnotes for you here, by the way. All the people who review my books that just love footnotes and miss them, grab my dissertation, man. There's more than 700. All the footnotes you could ever want.

[Caller/Guest]

I know.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

People are so funny, beautiful and lined.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Up in a row, but. And that was on First John 2, verse 2.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That Christ is the atonement for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for the whole world. And how that's talking about the world, the creation, the material creation, is cleansed and purified by Christ's blood in sort of an eschatological day of atonement that the Creator, in order, is cleansed from the stain, the effects of man's sin.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And it's talking about removing this sort of moral, ceremonial taint that comes from. From human evil from the material world. Okay, now that said. So that's recap.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Now someone might misunderstand or deliberately misunderstand that to be saying someone could take that in some kind of universalist way. Okay, well, now there's nothing unclean in the world.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There's nothing unclean at all. That's cleaned everything. Take it some kind of universalist way.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, that should mean anyone should be able to approach God at any time because everything and everyone is clean now.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So counter to that, we have plenty of passages in the New Testament that still talk about the distinction between clean things and unclean things. And a good example of that is in 2nd Corinthians 6:17.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Where it says, therefore go out from their midst and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing, then I will welcome you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Sorry, Calvinists about that then.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But clearly, whatever else we want to say about this verse, we leave the Calvinists alone for now.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Clearly, St. Paul is implying that there are still unclean things from which we need to separate ourselves as Christians.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In fact, if you read that whole passage in Second Corinthians 6, St. Paul is arguing from the idea that now we as Christians, our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, and therefore the need for purity in our lives is actually heightened by the presence of the Holy Spirit. We need to be more concerned about purity and being clean and being holy than people did previously who did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them. And this, of course, for St. Paul, broadly, has to do with the process of repentance and sacrifice. Sacrifice here being for us the Eucharist.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Where this is applied to us.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And we maintain this holiness. But. So there. There are things. Now when we say that there are things that are unclean, you may have immediately thought, well, yeah, obviously there are things that are morally unclean.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Pornography is unclean.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The blood of a murder victim, when you murdered them is like, clearly that's still morally unclean. Right. These horrible crimes, sexual immorality, unclean.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That may be where your mind jumped, but there are also things that are still ceremonially unclean.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like feces.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, right. It cannot, you know, if you have that on you, you cannot enter in.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Feces is not suddenly clean and holy now, right. In the New Covenant, roadkill. Sorry, fellow Southerners, it's not suddenly clean and whole way in the New Covenant, corpses, decomposing corpses are not suddenly clean and holy in the New Covenant.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So there's all those obviously morally unclean things, but there are things that are just unclean in that ceremonial sense. They require washing and purification still.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And for us, right, we still have the churching that we talked about with the collar in the second half. We still practice that.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That was actually. That particular practice of the Orthodox Church was one of the points of criticism from Rome at the Council of Florence. There were Roman bishops at the Council of Florence who accused the Orthodox of being Judaizers for keeping those things. Interesting footnote, but. So the reason those unclean things, those ceremonially unclean things remain is why? Well, the common remains. There's still things that are holy and things that are common. And Christianity is not about making every common thing in the world holy. We're not trying to make every cup a chalice.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Some are just your. The Eucharist, you know, Star Trek 2 Wrath of Khan commemorative cup.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There is no such thing as a holy toilet. Doesn't matter how nice you make it, how many jewels you put on it, it's still a toilet.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay. And you're gonna spend your life coming into contact with things that aren't holy, with things that are common. Even if you're a monastic, Monastics aren't like in the chapel all day every day.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, no, they're mostly working.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. A common thing.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Hoeing rutabagas.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I think that's big. Orthodox monasteries. Hoeing rutabagas. Hoeing Rutabagas, yes, that's the biggest activity. But just common things. There's nothing wrong with that. That's normal. You will have to eat things in life other than the Eucharist. Even if you receive the Eucharist every day, you're not going to live on it. Miracles of particular saints aside, right? Like, don't bring up St. Mary of Egypt. You're not St. Mary of Egypt.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You're going to eat some things other than the Eucharist and a couple pieces of bread.

[Caller/Guest]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so there is. Because we live our whole world still in the new Covenant in the New Testament. Today, as Christians, we still live in the world of the common.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The common world, the unclean world. And then we come at certain times to approach God, to present ourselves to God. We come to encounter the Holy most often that is at church. Sometimes it is not.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Sometimes it is with our family gathering for prayer. Sometimes it is by ourselves.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But we come to encounter the Holy. And when we come to encounter the Holy, we prepare ourselves.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And I mean, and this is why, like, as we mentioned earlier when we were talking to Father who called in, and as he mentioned, you know, there's hand washing for the clergy at particular points, whether it's, you know, at the end of vesting or with the bishop during the liturgy or in some traditions, actually, all the clergy who are going to commune will wash their hands. But also, and actually someone just brought this up in the YouTube chat. There's this question. I mean, this is another one of these ground zero things. It's so funny. People always make it about the stuff that women do without talking about that men have a responsibility just as much in this regard. Like, there is still the custom that many women have of, during their time of the month, not receiving Holy Communion. But that's not a special thing to women because the loss of bodily fluids also applies to men. As we said, these things are directly connected in the, in, in Leviticus.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know, and, and it's. And it's reflected in the canons of the Church. You know, it is.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And you clean yourself.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And you come back and you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, right. So, you know, and, and. But I'll say. I mean, I think it's important to note that, like, this is not something that you enforce upon other people. This is something that is within the pastoral relationship.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know, like. Yeah, it's, it's. I mean, I've heard of, of, of. And I think it might be easier to treat women this way because you just know that women, if they're of a certain age, are having their time of the month every month. And so like, oh, look at her, she went to communion six weeks in a row. Like, you know, whereas with men, with, you know, the parallel issues with men, you don't know, like, it's not on a cycle, but. But nonetheless, this is just one of those things. It's like, hello, you do not enforce that upon other people. That is something that each person, you know, in their spiritual discipline and their piety is being worked out with their spiritual father.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But the important thing is our focus is exactly reversed from what it should be. Yeah, our focus is always on this separation. Yeah, our focus is always on the time of separation.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, it's the church.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The focus of Orthodox Christianity is on the returning.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes, exactly. And that's one of the things that when sometimes people are offended by the fact that Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church is reserved for Orthodox Christians. And so they'll say, like, well, why won't you commune me? Or why won't you commune my uncle or whatever? I'll say, look, I want to, but there's some things we need to do first. You are welcome to communion. When you've gone through, when you've done what the members of this community have all done, you know, that's what it is. Like, yes, the door is open, but you need to walk the path, you know. But yeah, the point is to get people.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's nice to me.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, yeah. Well, I do tend to be nicer than you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Because I would say something like, hey, man, if you come visit my house, you can, you know, have any of the food in the fridge, you can drink any of my liquor, but you can't have sex with my wife.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, that analogy.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You're angry emails about that analogy to Father Andrew Damon. That analogy also, also works.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But obviously it has certain, certain limitations. It's not like, well, if as long you go through these steps, then you can.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No, yeah, no, no, no.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But yeah, like you said, the point is to have that communion with God. It's not about figuring out ways to prevent people having that communion from God. It's about going there in the right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Way of preparation and purification and entering appropriately.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Because like St. Paul said, some of you are not doing it the right way, and so some of you are sick and some of you are dead.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All the commandments of the Torah, all these things we've been talking about.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Were to facilitate God being able to dwell among his people and them being able to Approach him in worship.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's what they're aimed at, not the opposite. Not keeping them away, not barring them, not excluding them.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's not fencing the table.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so there are these times and they're built in, right, times of repentance. We don't consecrate the Eucharist on weekdays during Lent in the Orthodox Church following the canon from Nicaea.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because we have these times of separation to enable return, preparation. To return.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And, and to return in the appropriate way. In the prepared way.

[Caller/Guest]

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In the purified way.

[Caller/Guest]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, here we are at the end of the third half of this episode, Lord of Spirits. This, this topic was actually requested by multiple people in, including me. Like I've, we've, we've talked about it a little bit on previous episodes here and there, but, but I thought it would be a good idea to do like a focused, you know, especially because we have the Feast of the Meeting of the Lord in the temple, as it's called in Orthodox practice. In Western practice it's called the Purification of the Virgin, interestingly enough, or Candlemas is kind of the shorthand, colloquial term because there's a tradition of blessing candles for this upcoming feast. And I love Candlemas, I love this feast where Christ is brought as a 40 day old child to the temple and taken into the arms of Simeon the Righteous, you know, and you see exactly, exactly the practice, I mean, it's from the Torah. But we see this happening with Jesus, with his mother, the Theotokos. And this is exactly our practice in the Orthodox Church is that a mother and her new child come to the door of the church and she is, there are rituals of purification done for her. In Orthodox practice it is that the priest says prayers over her, lays his hand on her head, prays that she would be cleansed, prays that her sins would be forgiven. Not the sin of having a baby, because that's not a sin, but the sins that she just committed by, during her time of being away from church for six weeks so that she can be returned to Holy Communion and then also prayers for the offering of that child to God. Because that's the point. Like we were, we were just saying like that's, that's the point. And so there's so much that we do in the church that's all aimed at this. Like it's for our purification so that we can have this communion with God. I mean, and this is fractally applicable too, right? So that's the highest Greatest, the most central instantiation of that is that we purify ourselves so that we can approach God in communion with Him. But, like, this is also true in our relationships, right? You, you can't have communion with your spouse, with your family, with your friends if there's uncleanness between you, if there's unforgiven, unrepented sins between you, you can't. It's just, it's impaired. And so, I mean, I think this is probably the most obvious in terms of husbands and wives, that the intimacy of husbands and wives, the union of husbands and wives. And I don't just mean the physical union, although it definitely, definitely expresses itself there. It's predicated upon a cleanness between them, a cleanness between them. This life is given to us for repentance, and repentance is not just like, you know, I'm sorry, I'm not going to do it again. I'm going to try to do good things now from now on. Of course, that's, that's all required. But repentance is aimed at intimacy with God. That's, that's what it's aimed at. It's not just so you become a better person, right? Like, what's offered to us is to be sons of the most high, to be equal to angels, to be part of the royal family of God himself, to be adopted into his family. That is what is offered to us. And so all of this repentance, all of this purification, all of this is aimed at getting us ready for that, getting us ready for that. So far from the idea of ritual, uncleanness and purification being left behind in the Old Covenant, having nothing to do with the New Covenant, I would say that really, in many, at least from this angle, it is what everything that we're doing as Christians in the New Covenant is. We're being cleansed. We're being cleansed so that we can have this intimacy, this communion with God. It's a beautiful thing.

[Caller/Guest]

Father.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So there are a couple of wrong turns I think, that we make in contemporary culture regarding the idea of the holy and the common, or the sacred and the profane, if understood correctly as the holy and the common. One of those comes to us a lot from mostly from certain areas within American evangelicalism, which is not the same thing as Protestantism. And that comes in the form of, I mean, it could sound an awful lot like the aforementioned with the caller Korah, you know, are not all in Israel holy, where it's just sort of, oh, everyone's the same, right? Everything's holy. Every place is holy. God is everywhere, right? And going down that road, what you really end up with is not everyone is holy, but no one is holy. Not every place is holy, but no place is really holy. You kind of license to do what you want, dress how you want, right? And call it church and do whatever, but there's no holy place, there's no holy time, there's no holy people. That's where you end up. And you lose any concept of reverence then, reverence for particular people, reverence for particular places, particular times. You lose any sense of preparation, preparing to meet God or anything. And church just becomes one more common activity, right? That's part of just the common life. In fact, more and more, it just starts to look like all the other aspects of your life. There's less and less difference because again, everything is just common, the other. And sometimes this happens as a reaction, right? Sometimes this happens as a reaction from somebody who was in that world. And now is it a traditional that has more of a sense of the holy. They become Roman Catholic, they become some kind of high church Protestant, they become Orthodox. But this also, you find the same error, actually in a different form in puritanism and pietism. And that is the idea that there is the holy and there is the common, and the holy is good, and the common is somehow bad in that it isn't the holy.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And this expresses itself again in these various forms. For an Orthodox convert, this may take the form of them kind of desperately wanting to be a monastic, even though they're not a monastic. And even monastics are not actually, as we mentioned, in the church 24 7, they're doing other things. But this person, you know, the only music they will listen to is chant CDs from the church. The only thing they will read is things about the Orthodox Church, although a lot of those things seem to be on social media for some reason, rather than the books, the writings of the Fathers themselves, right? And they just want to be totally immersed, sort of like in the church 100% of the time, right? And that leads to bad places. A lot of them end up flaring out and leaving the church. They burn out. Other things happen. They cause a lot of trouble in the meantime. In some good cases, they kind of get more balanced as they go. That's what we hope for, right? But the same thing happens in Roman Catholic Church that the high church, Protestant groups of people who do this in the more puritan and pietist form. This is, you know, in the pietist Part of the Dutch reform tradition. I was exposed to this where certain people, you know, you know, while we are not legalists, right. And would never say, you know, xyz, those Baptists are crazy for saying you can't do xyz. Do you really need to go out to eat on a Sunday?

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's a different list of rules for everybody, but right. That and the whole. There was also, even in the pietist Dutch tradition, there was a whole worldly amusements thing, right. Like, why are you dancing? Why are you playing cards?

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And of course, people can see that spread out through the Puritan tradition. Sort of amusing yourself any. Anything entertainment, anything that's just common like that, anything that isn't somehow spiritually directed, right. Is. Is somehow bad. And so whatever you're going to do, if, if you're gonna. If your kid's gonna read a children's book, well, you've got to go and get a Christian children's book from the bookstore. And if they're going to listen to music, you got CD, you got to go. I know nobody uses CDs anymore, but you get my point. You're going to listen to music. Well, it's got to be the Christian version of that music. If you're listening to rock music, it's got to be Christian rock music. If you're going to listen to rap music, it's got to be Christian rap music. Whatever it is, we have to Christianize it because we have to make everything. We have to try to make everything holy. We can't ever be out there in the common world. That's the low church, Protestant form of it, that Puritan form of it. And all of that is a mistake. All that is a mistake. And nothing the scriptures ever called for. Nothing the church ever called for.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The church.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The scriptures have always acknowledged that as people, we live out in the common world. And then at certain times, we gather together as families, right? As a whole church community, we gather together to worship God, to enter the presence of God, to draw close to God. And before we do that, we sort of mentally and physically and spiritually prepare ourselves to sort of leave that common world and come into the presence of God. And we do that for a time. And then after we've done that for a time, we don't build tabernacles there. We go back down the mountain and we go back into the common world of everyday life. And we embrace everyday life as also being good. The common is also good. It's okay to watch a movie with your family. It's okay to watch the sports ball on Sunday afternoon after you get home from liturgy, which you didn't skip to watch the sports ball, right? It's okay to play a video game once in a while. It's okay to just read a novel that has no spiritual import whatsoever. It's okay for your kids to imagine and play games and things that aren't directly related to Christianity or the church somehow. It's okay to live a normal life in the world as long as when the time comes, we set that aside, we prepare ourselves, we purify ourselves, and we come again into the presence of God. There's going to come a day where the presence of God is going to completely fill the entire universe and we're going to dwell with him forever. That day will come, but that day is not today. Today we have to pay bills. Today we have to feed ourselves. Today we have to maintain our car. Today we have a thousand other of these common things to do. And doing them isn't bad, it isn't wrong, it isn't a distraction from good things.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And I'll finish up with this. A place where we see, this is the way everyone talks about the story of Saints Mary and Martha, because the way you may have heard it in the past is, well, St. Martha, she's going around busy doing all this work, preparing hospitality to receive guests, right? And St. Mary, she's sitting there listening to Jesus. And St. Mary is the good example and St. Martha is the bad example. You should be like St. Mary, not like St. Martha, right? Kind of obviated by the fact that they're both saints. This is because people don't read closely, right? Because what Christ says to St. Martha is that there is one thing needful for her, and that is what St. Mary is doing. He doesn't say there's anything wrong with her. Serving hospitality is good. Hospitality is the right thing to do. Everything that St. Martha was doing was good. But there was one additional thing she needed, and that was at a certain.

[Caller/Guest]

Point.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Having done all of the business of the world, all the meal preparation, all the everything, all the hospitality preparation, the time would come when she needed that one thing, which was to come into the presence of the Lord and come and sit at Jesus feet and listen to him. These things are not opposed to each other. They go together. It's only when they don't go together that there's a problem.

[Caller/Guest]

Foreign.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Thank you very much, everyone. That's our show for tonight. We appreciate you listening. If you didn't happen to get through to us live, we'd still like to hear from you. You can email [e-mail] you can message us at our Facebook page. You can also leave us a [e-mail] LordOfSpirits and if you have basic questions about Orthodox Christianity or you need help to find a parish, go to orthodoxintro.org.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Join us for our live broadcasts on the second and fourth Thursdays of the month at 7pm Eastern, 4pm Pacific. Teddy Petrgrass is cooler than Freddy Jackson sipping a milkshake in a snowstorm.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

If you're on Facebook, you can follow our page, you can join our discussion group, and you can please leave ratings and reviews in all the appropriate places and share the show with one of your friends.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And finally, be sure to go to ancientfaith.com support and help make sure we and lots of other AFR podcasters stay on the air. We're gonna ride out to the Honeycomb Hideout. I'm gonna show you how to wild out like Jack Tripper.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Thank you, good night and may God bless you always.

[Narrator]

You've been listening to the Lord of Spirits with Orthodox Christian priests Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen DeYoung, a listener supported presentation of Ancient Faith Radio. And I beheld and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders, and the number of them was 10,000 times 10,000 and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, we're worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and Blessing. Revelation, chapter 5, verses 11 through 12.