The Lord of Spirits Podcast – Episode: "Some Body"

Date: August 9, 2024
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Main Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition – What is the bodily resurrection? Where is personal identity found? How do souls, bodies, and relationships participate in Christian eschatology?

Episode Overview

This episode delves deeply into the Christian doctrine of the bodily resurrection, challenging common misconceptions influenced by dualism and modernity. The hosts assert that Orthodox tradition, Scripture, and instinct all locate personal identity in the body and the web of relationships a person forms throughout life, not in a separate, immortal “soul.” They argue that to understand resurrection—and salvation itself—requires rethinking what it means to be “a person” and what is made eternal. Practical, theological, and pastoral questions about identity, afterlife, and communal life are explored, with listeners' questions helping to clarify and deepen the discussion.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction: The Bodily Resurrection and Identity

• Central Dogma: Bodily resurrection is critical to Christianity yet often overlooked or misunderstood.
• Big Questions Raised:
  • What does it mean for “me” to be raised?
  • Is identity in the “soul,” the “body,” or both?
  • How do relationships and actions shape our resurrected selves?

"Does the resurrection mean that the same set of atoms we're carrying around now will persist into the age to come?" (03:01)

2. “Plato Brain” – The Critique of Soul-Body Dualism ([04:04])

• Many Christians mistakenly assume the “soul” is their “real self” and the body is just a shell.
• This idea is deeply Platonic—not scriptural or patristic—stemming from ancient Greek philosophy, not the Hebrew or Christian worldview.
• Orthodox View: The “soul” is the animating life principle, not the person or the seat of individuality.

"That's Plato brain... That's what happens when you read too much Plato—let him ruin your metaphysics." – Fr. Stephen ([04:04])

3. Open Theism Rant as a Theological Digression ([04:30–10:14])

• Responding to complaints about their last episode's treatment of Open Theism.
• Fr. Stephen critiques Open Theism as incoherent and heretical—a distortion of God’s timelessness and omniscience.
• Key points on God’s knowledge and free will:
  • "The future is the present plus a finite amount of motion." ([06:44])
  • “The God of open theism is inferior to pagan gods...” ([08:16])
  • Open theism misconceives both God and human freedom.

“If you got through that book and enjoyed it and you’re still an open theist, something…there was a disconnect.” – Fr. Stephen ([08:31])

4. What Is the Soul? (13:24–19:27)

• Soul = Life: In both Hebrew (nephesh) and classical Christian understanding, soul means the animating life-force, not the “inner person.”
• All human souls are essentially the same—what distinguishes people is not “soul-stuff.”
• Death is the separation of the soul (“life”) from the body; the corpse is still recognized as the person.

“The distinctives of identity do not apply to a human soul. Meaning, I'm not alive in a different sense than Fr. Andrew.” – Fr. Stephen ([15:04])

• Critique of Reincarnation: Even traditions that posit the soul as migratory do not maintain personal continuity across lives.

5. What Is the Body? Where Is Identity? (19:31–24:41 and following)

• Personal identity is found in the body and participation in “webs of relationships;” not a detachable “inner spirit.”
• Human intuition and every ancient culture regard the corpse as “still them”—hence burial customs.
• Disposing of bodies through cremation was a late innovation, reflecting philosophical rejection of bodily identity.

“People recognized instinctually that the body of their departed loved one was still their loved one—was still that person.” – Fr. Stephen ([22:52])

6. Relationships: The Person Is a Web, Not an “Individual” (34:35–39:14; expanded later)

• Identity is not internal, static, or atomic but social and dynamic—a stack of relationships, vocations, roles, and actions.
• Modern individualism and its “find your true inner self” narrative leads to emptiness and nihilism. Medieval, biblical, and Orthodox anthropology sees the self as a lived, relational reality.
• The more relationships and community connections you embrace, the “fuller” your personal identity.

“My identity is a whole series of nested, stacked-up relationships…My relationships to my family members, my relationships to my community, and the different communities I’m a part of…” – Fr. Stephen ([34:50])

• “Trying to craft an identity for yourself is expensive and exhausting... you’re always aware that you’re cosplaying.” ([38:03])

7. Actions Make the Person ([40:50–47:27])

• In Christianity, actions, not beliefs/feelings, are how love for God and others is realized.
• Hypocrisy, in Christ’s critique, isn’t about inconsistent feelings but inconsistency between claim and action.
• Scriptural motif: “Fruit” = actions that reveal true identity.

“Our relationship with God is constituted, is made up, of our actions.” – Fr. Stephen ([41:02])

“My love for my wife is not a feeling I have…it’s what I do.” – Fr. Stephen ([43:56])

8. Resurrection, Atoms, and the Restoration of Identity ([47:12–50:34])

• Resurrection isn’t about God reassembling every lost atom; the matter itself is not what makes you “you.”
• If identity is constituted by body-in-relationship and action, then resurrection is God restoring the system of relationships, vocations, externalities—your actual lived self.

“If it’s not, then it’s not going to be me who’s raised from the dead.” – Fr. Stephen ([48:41])

Segment Timestamps for Key Moments

• [03:01] First questions about bodily resurrection and identity.
• [04:04] Plato, the “soul,” and dualism.
• [08:16] "The God of open theism..." quote.
• [13:24] What does “soul” mean scripturally?
• [19:31] Why the body is the locus of identity.
• [34:35] Nested web of relationships as identity.
• [38:03] The exhaustion of cosplaying identity.
• [41:02] Relationship with God is about action.
• [43:56] What love really means in Scripture.
• [47:12] Resurrection and atoms—what is restored?
• [50:24/50:34] What the bodily resurrection really entails.

9. Temporal Identity – We Are Not a Snapshot ([76:17–90:54])

• Our identity isn’t just a spatial/body phenomenon but extends across time.
• Our life has phases, failures, redemptions; we are the “arc” of our whole story, not just a good or bad moment (e.g., dementia at the end of life doesn’t erase the totality).
• The Judgment is of the “whole person,” not just your last state or mood before death.

“It’s the whole person. And that whole person is... spread out over the time of their whole life.” – Fr. Stephen ([88:47])

10. The Purpose of This Life ([95:44] and following)

• Your identity is still being formed; every new action, repentance, or relationship shapes the eternal “you.”
• The Christian life is about transformation: the aim is that all of life’s moments become accessible for God’s grace and, ultimately, eternity.

“Whoever you become now…is going to shape, is going to conclude, is going to fill out that story and who you are.” ([95:04])

• Modern “individualism” is a lie; there’s no “atomic” self—only webs of embodied relationships.

11. Q&A Segment Highlights

Literal vs. Spiritual Meaning in Scripture ([56:47–68:09])

• Caller Luke asks about “literal meaning” in Biblical interpretation. The literal sense is foundational, but deeper meanings (allegorical, moral, etc.) build upon it.

"We have to start with what’s literally there... and once we understand that, we can make these other theological connections..." – Fr. Stephen

Cremation and Resurrection ([103:01–109:31])

• Caller Timothy worries about his mother’s cremation and salvation.
• It does not prevent resurrection; the issue is not the atoms or burial method, but faithful intent and tradition.

“God loves you and he loves your mom. And he’s not waiting for you to break a rule you don’t even know about so he can lower the boom on you.” – Fr. Stephen ([108:44])

Interior and Exterior Life – What is the “Interior”? ([111:11–118:40])

• Caller Bethany wonders about “interiority” (prayer, repentance) and the exterior, embodied life.
• Hosts reaffirm: even “thoughts” are external in Orthodox anthropology; what matters is faithful, actionable participation in the life of the Church.

"Thoughts are external to us…Our mind is actually like a sensory organ." – Fr. Stephen ([117:04])

Saints Rising at Christ’s Crucifixion ([119:27–125:29])

• Caller Judah asks if the saints raised at Christ’s death are the first fruits of resurrection; Fr. Stephen affirms, tying their appearances to Christ’s own.

“The resurrection of Christ is the beginning of the general resurrection... them being part of it is what I think St. Matthew is dramatizing.” – Fr. Stephen

12. Eternal Life: What Is Made Eternal? (Third Half, [127:26]–End)

Eternal Life as the Eternity of the Actual Life

• “Eternal life” is not endless duration but the eternality of the actual lived life, with all that is truly “us” restored and made permanent—like the “fruit” of a life full of grace.
• This is not an “endless string of moments” but inhabiting the fullness of your transformed life.

"The life we live in this world that's already going on... has eternality applied to it." ([131:57])

• Citation: 1 John 5:11–13 – “That you may know that you have an eternal life.”

The “Purification” after Death

• The “purification” is not a mechanical or legalistic “time in purgatory,” but the burning away of all that is not filled with the energies of God (love, joy, peace, etc.) in your actual life.

“All of the garbage, all of the sin, all of the evil, all of the suffering, all of that gets burned away. And then what is left?” ([148:25])

Hell as Volitional, Not Automatic

• Hell is understood not as divine retribution but as a self-chosen exclusion, a hell of one’s own making through persistent rejection of grace.

“Any eventual hell after the Last Judgment would be a hell of one’s own making.” ([153:15])

• The “Onion Story” (Russian folktale recounted at [154:01]): Even the smallest act of love or repentance can become an eternal point of salvation—unless it is deliberately rejected.

The Meaning of the Transfiguration ([173:23–179:48])

• The episode ends with reflections on Christ’s Transfiguration as the clearest image of the glorified, resurrected body—an icon of what the kingdom is for the saints.

“Christ, as God, ascended on the mountain…this is the life of the age to come. This is another way of understanding the life of the age to come.” – Fr. Andrew ([174:51])

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “The God of open theism is inferior to pagan gods because pagan gods could at least figure out what would probably happen the next day.” – Fr. Stephen ([08:16])

• “A human soul as such is a human soul. The distinctives of identity do not apply to a human soul.” – Fr. Stephen ([15:04])

• “You tend to spend a lot of time trying to figure out who you are, and what you quickly realize is…you find nothing left. You don’t find some inner soul that has an identity inside you; you find a big hole.” – Fr. Stephen ([33:46])

• “My love for my wife is not a feeling I have sometimes... it’s what I do.” – Fr. Stephen ([43:56])

• “In order for the bodily resurrection to be a bodily resurrection… your identity, Father Stephen DeYoung, Father Andrew Damick, you, the listener… that not only the web of relationships…but the time of our life needs to be resurrected or redeemed.” – Fr. Stephen ([128:00])

• “It’s not just ongoing succession into the future of nice moments, but it’s inhabiting the sacred moments of our life eternally.” – Fr. Stephen ([151:45])

• “The life of the world to come, eternal life, the life that's going to be eternal, is this life.” – Fr. Stephen ([171:44])

Flow and Tone

The conversation is intellectually rigorous but peppered with banter, humor, and warmth. Both hosts use analogies, cultural references (Star Trek, Boston, Cats, The Good Place), and personal anecdotes to make their points vivid and relatable. They maintain their characteristic mixture of directness, occasional sarcasm, and deep pastoral concern.

Conclusion: What Does All This Mean for the Christian Life?

• The bodily resurrection is not about the brute reanimation of matter, but about the eternal confirmation and glorification of the actual person—the whole story, relationships, actions, and lived reality.
• “Heaven” or “eternal life” is not a reward exterior to this life or a compensation for its hardships; it is the transfiguration of all that was filled with the presence of God, however fleeting, however small.
• Individualism, escapist religion, or a gnosis-seeking afterlife are all rejected.
• The Christian task is to embrace embodied relationship, transformation, and the creation of moments and webs of love, peace, and charity—to “practice” now the eternity to come.

Related Episodes (as discussed):

• Who Stole the Soul?
• Bodies and the Bodyless
• God’s Body
• The Boat of Theseus
• Can These Bones Live? (Relics episode)

For Further Reflection

The hosts suggest listeners carry forward the vision of Tabor—the transfiguration—as the icon of what resurrection really is: the glorification, not the erasure, of the best and most God-filled moments of life, now made endless in the gracious presence of Christ.

Next Episode: August 29, 2024 – All Q&A episode.

Podcast: The Lord of Spirits | Ancient Faith Ministries