Podcast Summary: The Lord of Spirits Episode: Sons of God, Equal to the Angels (October 24, 2020) Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young

Overview

This episode explores the Orthodox Christian understanding of salvation, focusing on the concept of theosis (divinization), and challenges the individualistic and juridical models prevalent in Western Christianity. The hosts delve into biblical and patristic sources to show that salvation, understood as becoming “sons of God, equal to the angels,” is God’s original purpose for humanity—not a mere fix for sin, but participation in His divine life and cosmic purpose.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Problem with How Salvation is Discussed (00:00–14:25)

• Western Individualism & Legalism: The Protestant Reformation shifted focus to "How am I saved?" leading to a legal and individual understanding of salvation: "Where do I stand in relation to God's justice?" (06:30)
• Theosis Gets Truncated: Even among Orthodox, theosis is often mentioned only as a kind of spiritual self-improvement, personalized and moralistic, rather than as the fullness of salvation and participation in the divine destiny for all of humanity. (08:28)
• Quote (Fr. Andrew, 12:03): “Even if you read salvation as being theosis ... it’s still often conceived of in a kind of individual way, like, 'okay, now work on your theosis.'”
• Contrasting Metaphors: The West uses courtroom and banking metaphors; the East emphasizes being transformed and healed, but even this can be misunderstood as just a different angle rather than a radically different vision. (09:19, DeYoung)

2. The Biblical Foundation: The Promises to Abraham (14:25–34:18)

• Theosis in Genesis: God's promise to Abraham is not just about descendants but that his offspring will be “as the stars” (Genesis 15:5, 22:17, 26:4).
• Being Like the Stars: In ancient culture, stars represent spiritual beings (the 'sons of God', i.e., angels), not just points of light.
  • Quote (DeYoung, 17:49): “The word... isn’t just about number, but nature: ‘so shall your offspring be’ means your offspring are going to be like them.”
• Deeper Parallelism: The “stars of heaven” points to being blessed (quality), “sand on the seashore” points to being many (quantity) (19:13–20:06).
• The Land as Down Payment: The physical Promised Land is a sign or deposit, not the true fulfillment; Abraham looked towards a “heavenly” promised land (25:03).

3. Stars and “Sons of God” in Ancient Understanding (26:48–34:18)

• Spiritual Cosmic Government: Ancient peoples (and the Bible itself) saw stars, sun, and moon as governed by spiritual beings—angels, not mere metaphors.
  • Quote (Fr. Andrew, 27:55): “What makes the wind blow... and the stars shine?... There were spiritual beings who were engaged in... the working, the functioning of creation.”
• Philo and Deuteronomy: Philo of Alexandria, reflecting 1st-century Jewish thought, sees the sun, moon, stars as viceroys of God, governing the world under His authority (31:27, DeYoung).
• God’s Promise: God’s word to Abraham means his descendants will enter this spiritual destiny—governing and participating in God’s cosmic rule.

4. New Testament Fulfillment: Sons of God & Equal to the Angels (36:36–53:41)

• Christ’s Teaching (Luke 20:36): Jesus explicitly says that the “sons of the resurrection” will be “sons of God and equal to the angels.”
  • Quote (Andrew, 38:12): “Becoming a son of the resurrection means becoming one of the sons of God ... equal to the angels.”
• The Divine Council: The destiny of the faithful is to be part of God's heavenly host—a role traditionally occupied by angels.

5. St. Paul on Theosis: Deep Biblical Dive (53:41–78:04)

• Paul as Mystic: Paul is more like an Old Testament seer/prophet, writing out of visionary encounters with Christ (58:11).

• Key Texts:

  • Galatians 3:26–29: Those baptized into Christ are “sons of God,” “offspring of Abraham,” and “heirs according to the promise.”
    • Quote (Andrew, 67:15): “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ… And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.”
  • Galatians 4:5–7: Through adoption, we become heirs and sons of God.
  • Romans 8:14–23, 29: The Spirit makes us sons of God and fellow heirs with Christ; creation itself longs for the “revealing of the sons of God” who will set it free from corruption.
    • Quote (DeYoung, 75:55): “This isn’t humanity over against creation. The whole purpose of creation…was so that [God] could share his divine and eternal life with us humans.”

• Theosis as God’s “Plan A”: This is not a plan B after the Fall; it’s the purpose for which all things exist (14:10, 76:12).

6. Q&A Highlights & Notable Calls

On Demons and Mental Illness (40:15–52:46)

• Question: Do demons play a role in mental health issues?
• Hosts: Possession and mental illness are distinct. Demonic temptation may play a role in mental illness, but it’s not a one-to-one correlation.
  • Quote (DeYoung, 52:21): “They have the same relationship to mental illness that they do to physical illness…”
• Approach: Both spiritual realities and natural/medical causes must be considered.

On Loss and Recovery of the Divine Council Tradition (80:41–89:21)

• Question: When did the Church "lose" this teaching about the Divine Council?
• Hosts: The tradition was never truly lost in Orthodoxy, but often neglected or untranslated. In the West, theological priorities shifted, but the roots can be rediscovered.
  • Quote (DeYoung, 84:10): “I don’t know so much that it’s lost. It’s just that we haven’t laid hold of it…”

Theosis vs. Sanctification in Protestantism (90:15–98:51)

• Caller (DeYoung’s mother): What’s the difference between sanctification (Protestant view) and theosis?
• Hosts: Protestantism often views sanctification as post-salvation moral improvement; theosis is full participation in divine life, sharing Christ’s glory and destiny.
  • Quote (Andrew, 92:54): “We would say that sanctification… is salvation… becoming holy is salvation… called to become like the stars in heaven—that is, the heavenly hosts.”
  • Quote (DeYoung, 96:34): “If you see… justification as being made righteous, sanctification as being made holy, glorification…all things that happen as part of being conformed to the likeness of Christ.”

Notable Quotes

• DeYoung, 13:29: “This is about the purpose for which the world was created. This is about the purpose for which human beings were created... the destiny of humanity.”
• Andrew, 38:12: “Becoming a son of the resurrection means becoming one of the sons of God… equal to the angels.”
• DeYoung, 67:51: “By being baptized, we are therefore Christ's. And in being sons of God, we are also Abraham's seed and heirs to those promises.”
• DeYoung, 75:55: “The reason God created everything…was so that he could share his divine and eternal life with us humans. To bring forth the sons of God.”
• Andrew, 100:24: (Quoting Fr. Matthew Baker) “According to Athanasius, the spirit of adoption and freedom gives the Christian fearlessness to confess the truth.”

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:00–14:25] – Diagnosis of the Western dilemma regarding salvation, intro to theosis problem
• [14:25–34:18] – Genesis promises to Abraham, “like the stars,” spiritual meaning of stars
• [36:36–53:41] – New Testament fulfillment, “sons of God, equal to angels”
• [53:41–78:04] – Deep dive: St. Paul on theosis and the Abrahamic promise
• [80:41–89:21] – Q&A on loss of the Divine Council tradition
• [90:15–98:51] – Protestant sanctification vs. Orthodox theosis

Tone & Style

The tone is warm, accessible, deep, and sometimes playful—demonstrating expertise but always aiming for clarity and connection with listeners at various stages of familiarity with these ideas. There are moments of levity, technical interruptions, and frequent “mind-blowing” connections drawn between Scripture and Orthodox anthropology.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a call to embrace the cosmic scope of salvation: God created humanity for nothing less than participation in His divine life, to be integrated into His heavenly council alongside the angels. The episode encourages listeners to discover their destiny as “sons of God, equal to the angels”—not as lone individuals but as a community sharing in God’s purpose for the cosmos now, not simply after death.

Closing Quote (DeYoung, 102:14): “This life isn’t about, you know, I did some bad stuff, but I'll do what I need to do to make sure I get to heaven... The eternal God created everything so that He could become one of us and so that He could share His eternal divine life with us forever. ... We have the gift to start to experience that right now.”

Next Episode Teaser: The Real Demons of Halloween—exploring Christ’s defeat of the powers and the meaning of becoming “heirs” who “camp in the gates” of the enemy.

For Further Reference:

• Listen to episode
• [Recommended Reading: Fr. Matthew Baker, “Deification and Sonship According to St. Athanasius of Alexandria.”]