Stole Something? Kill a Goat!

Summary

---

The Lord of Spirits

Episode 132: Stole Something? Kill a Goat!

Date: January 27, 2026

Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Podcast Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition

---

OVERVIEW

This episode focuses on peeling back misconceptions about the Old Testament sacrificial system—specifically sin offerings—and their relationship to the work of Christ and repentance within Orthodox Christianity. The priests aim to challenge “transactional” and “substitutionary” ideas often read into the Biblical text, particularly those absorbed from evangelical and Protestant traditions. They guide listeners through a close reading of Leviticus 4 and related passages, unraveling common misunderstandings about sacrifice, repentance, sin, and forgiveness, connecting these ideas from Torah through the Prophets to the New Testament.

Through engaging dialogue, Bible readings, and listener questions, the hosts emphasize that true repentance, personal action to set things right, and authentic relationship with God—not mere ritual or substitution—are central to both ancient Israelite practice and Christian doctrine.

---

MAIN DISCUSSION TOPICS

1. Setting the Stage ([00:00]–[10:00])

• Opening and Banter: The priests joke about audio quality and podcast history, before turning to the night’s theme.
• Topic Announcement: “We’re going to be wading into the relationship between the sacrificial system of the Torah and the work of Christ in the Gospels—especially sin offerings, what they did, and how they work.”
  — Fr. Andrew [05:03]

2. Reading Leviticus 4: Sin Offerings ([10:10]–[15:22])

• Long passage read aloud: Sin offerings for different groups—priests, congregation, leaders, common people—are explained with detailed ritual steps for sacrificing bulls, goats, and lambs. All involve laying hands on the animal, slaughter, and specific blood/fat rituals.
• Key Point: No mention in Leviticus 4 of placing sins “onto” sacrificed animals.

“That was a pregnant pause there, Fr. Stephen. You were going to sleep well.”
— Fr. Andrew, after the lengthy reading [15:25]

3. Misconceptions About the Sacrificial System ([15:36]–[43:00])

i. Misconception #1: Sins Imputed to the Sacrifice

• Evangelicals (and some Orthodox/Catholics influenced by their environment) often assume sin is transferred to the animal by laying hands on it.
• Refutation: Laying on of hands does not mean “imputing sin”—as shown by other passages (e.g., Numbers 8:5–13) where the Levites themselves are “sacrificed” symbolically by laying on hands, but no sins are mentioned.
• The only explicit “sin transfer” is to the goat for Azazel (“scapegoat”) on the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16)—and that animal is not sacrificed.
• “[T]here’s not a place in the Old Testament where sins are placed on an animal and then it is sacrificed.”
  — Fr. Stephen [17:12]

ii. Misconception #2: Substitutionary Death

• The idea that the animal “dies in your place” as a substitutionary punishment is examined.
• Refutation: Many sins (e.g., theft) are not punishable by death in Torah; instead, they require restitution. Thus, animal sacrifice cannot be a substitute for a death penalty that was never required.
• Killing the animal is not ritualized or the essence of “sacrifice”; what the priest does after the death is key.

“We need to get away from this idea that sacrifice...means killing a thing...within the context of the scriptures, sacrifice does not mean killing a thing.”
— Fr. Andrew [35:17]

iii. Misconception #3: Sacrifice Only for “Unintentional” Sins

• Some claim sin offerings address only “accidental” or “involuntary” sins.
• Refutation: Many sins addressed are clearly deliberate. Torah and 1 John both acknowledge genuine “culpability.” The sacrificial system always presupposed repentance, not mere error correction.

“...there is a concept of culpability in the Bible...There’s a difference between an error and a sin.”
— Fr. Stephen [44:44]

4. The Meaning of “Unintentional” vs. “High-Handed” Sins ([76:01]–[81:35])

• Numbers 15:27–30 contrasts unintentional sin (for which atonement is available) with “high-handed” sin—open, defiant, unrepentant wrongdoing (for which there is “no sacrifice”).
• “The imagery...is that they’re taking an oath...they’re owning what they’re doing.”
  — Fr. Stephen [78:18]
• Willful (“high-handed”) sinners cannot expect atonement through ritual or sacrifice; repentance is foundational.

5. Prophets & The Primacy of Repentance Over Ritual ([90:59]–[100:00])

• Readings from Isaiah 1, Amos 5, Jeremiah 7, Malachi 1 reinforce God’s rejection of sacrifices from the unrepentant and negligent—the rituals are not “mechanical” and have no effect without real repentance.

“Bring no more vain offerings...even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.”
— Isaiah 1 [91:43]

• The intention is a “meal of reconciliation;” ritual alone has no magic power—personal effort to repair the breach (repentance) must come first.

6. New Testament: Hebrews and 1 John on Sin and Repentance ([70:00]–[76:00], [73:41], [75:01])

• Hebrews 10:26: “If we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins...”
• 1 John 3:4–6: (Literal reading) “Everyone who sins also practices lawlessness... No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him.”
• Greek does not say “keep on sinning” (as softened in most translations), but “sins”—emphasizing willfulness (high-handedness) as the problem.
• The division is not between “accidentally” and “on purpose,” but between the penitent and the defiant sinner.

7. Q&A Highlights

Listener Q: Did Christ End Ritual? ([53:55]–[60:20])

• Evangelical claim: Christ ended all ritual (“why I love Jesus but hate religion”).
• Refutation: Worship is ongoing; forms and specifics change but sacrificial, liturgical worship continues in new, deeper ways (e.g., Eucharist). To discard “Old Testament” worship is to miss the continuity of God’s revelation.

Listener Q: Genesis 3:16 and Women’s “Punishment” ([63:11]–[69:47])

• The struggle of “toil in childbirth” and man’s struggle with the ground both reflect the same post-Fall condition: the world and its original gifts remain, but are now experienced through struggle, pain, and spiritual hardship.

Listener Q: Incense and Sacrifice ([107:02]–[115:33])

• Incense is a sacrifice, but of a different category—parallel to the “sweet savor” offerings, offered to God, with the byproduct (smoke) as purificatory. Not a sin offering itself, but an “ascending” scented offering, with deep connections to Old and New Testament worship.

Listener Q: Psalm 87/88 and God’s Wrath on Christ ([116:16]–[127:16])

• “Wrath” in Scripture: Not always God’s emotional anger, but denotes the suffering and alienation from God that results from disorder and sin. Christ endured the cursed condition and its consequences—not as penal substitution (not “God punishing Christ instead of us”) but by experiencing the full effects of a broken world, though he was without sin.

---

8. The Transactional vs. Relational Religion ([128:08]–End)

Substitutionary Atonement & Repentance

• No “Transaction” or “Deal” with God: The “substitutionary” idea (Christ did X so we don’t have to) is a transactional caricature foreign to the Bible and Orthodoxy. True repentance always remains necessary.

“Any kind of penal substitutionary atonement requires Christ to have died a spiritual death...[But] Christ by his physical death, takes away both our physical and spiritual death.”
— Fr. Stephen [135:28]

• Debate on “Assurance”: Protestant claims to “assurance of salvation” are often founded on the “transactional” idea—do “the thing,” be “saved,” regardless of actual relationship or repentance. In Orthodoxy, assurance comes from the continued work of repentance and union with Christ, not from a one-time “deal.”
• Illustration: “If you cheat on your wife, then come home and say it’s OK because you offered a goat, she’s not going to be satisfied. True reconciliation requires real action and repair, not a mere ritual or transaction.”

— Paraphrased [157:00]

• Zacchaeus as Model: Real repentance included not just sorrow but restitution.

Orthodox Position Summed:

• The entire thrust of Old and New Testaments is about right relationship, repentance, and ongoing faithfulness—not one-off acts or substitutes. Mechanistic “justification by payment” formulas distort the Biblical vision.

Memorable Quotes:

“If you say repentance isn’t necessary, you’ve arrived at an absurd point and you need to question...”
— Fr. Stephen [153:15]

“If you’re living a life where you’ve decided to repent and you’re doing it even if you keep sinning, then you are being faithful...and that is a place of assurance.”
— Fr. Andrew [162:04]

---

NOTABLE MOMENTS & TIMESTAMPS

• The “Scapegoat” Problem: [17:17–20:05]
• Numbers 8/Levites and Sacrifice: [22:59–26:24]
• Exodus 22 Restitution Law: [30:48–33:38]
• Sacrifice ≠ Killing: [34:40–36:20]
• Hebrews 10 & Deliberate Sin: [70:00–73:41]
• Psalm 51 and Sacrifice: [81:52–86:25]
• Zacchaeus’ Repentance Modeled: [159:34–160:07]
• “Religion” vs. “Relationship” Irony: [162:01–172:01]
• Pastoral Assurance (“No One Who Loves God...Will Be Lost”): [173:39–180:13]

---

FINAL TAKEAWAYS

• Ritual, sacrifice, and worship are not “deals” with God but acts of communion, humility, and restoration—always requiring personal repentance and reconciliation.
• The Orthodox view harmonizes Old and New Testament teachings, rejecting transactional, forensic, or strictly substitutionary models of atonement in favor of healing, relationship, and transformation in Christ.
• Assurance of salvation is found not in a contract, but in sincere, ongoing repentance, participation in Christ’s life, and trust in God’s love and mercy.

“God is not trying to sift people out to send them to hell. He's trying to bring people to salvation. ...All you have to do is not say no.”
— Fr. Stephen [178:32–180:13]

---

[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Narrator]

He will be a staff for the righteous with which for them to stand and not to fall. And he will be the light of the nations and the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All who dwell on the earth will fall down and worship him. And they will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of spirits. The modern world doesn't acknowledge, but is nevertheless haunted by spirits and angels, demons and saints. In our time, many yearn to break free of the prison of a flat secular materialism, to see and to know reality as it truly is. What is this spiritual reality like? How do we engage with it? Well, how do we permeate everyday life with spiritual presence? Orthodox Christian priests, Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen DeYoung host this live call in show focused on enchantment in creation, vision, the union of the seen and unseen as made by God and experienced by mankind throughout history. Welcome to the Lord of Spirits.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Thanks. Voice of Steve. Greetings to you dragon slayers, giant killers and captains of Capricorn iniquity imputation. You're listening to the 132nd episode of the Lord of Spirits podcast. Nevertheless, I am Father Andrew Stephen Damick and with me is the scourge of YouTube live streams, Father Stephen DeYoung. And we're live. The great gatekeeper Mike shaved orangutan Degan will be taking your calls tonight, beginning in the second half.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Before we go any further, a couple quick notes I have to make.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay, thank you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

First, once again, people probably notice we're coming to you at our new earlier start time so that old man Damick can get his beauty sleep.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's right, that's right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And then secondly, I, I do have to comment on the audio that immediately preceded this podcast on ancient faith. Oh, I have no issues with the content. Yeah, content, great. Clearly from someone's sermon podcast. However, this was sounded like it was recorded on one of those two potato clocks that we made in junior high science class.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I think, Father, that that was the voice of a very young Father Thomas Hopko.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Is that what it was? So this is just aged?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, it's from a long time ago. So we were given interfaith, was given boxes of tape recordings of talks and sermons and so forth that were given by his family. And we've been gradually digitizing them and making them into a podcast. Pretty sure.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So this was like a phonograph record that was being played?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Something like that. It's actually old cassette tapes. Some of the kids listening might remember.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Those I can understand. But I was on the way to my actual grievance, which I am now airing in that you people refused to air the earlier episodes of the whole Council of God Bible study because of my potato quality audio. And now I see how I rate.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes, you rate below the legendary Father Thomas Hopko, I'm afraid.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But I think now that you've explained to me the age of it and the means of its provenance, I think now I understand what needs to happen is I need to die before I finish the second round. And then you will use the potato quality audio to fill in the gaps. Is that how this will work?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Because what some people may not know is that the earliest recordings of the whole Council of God are so scratchy that they did not become part of your podcast and begins with the Gospel of Luke, even though you began with Genesis. First time around.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. I spent the princely sum of $21.87 to buy that audio recorder at Walmart and position it somewhere near me as I paced back and forth.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can. And I can picture in my mind because I know you recorded most of those in the coffee hour room or maybe the room adjacent there at St. George in Charleston, West Virginia. So I can always imagine you doing that. You know, the. The refrigerator kicks on in the kitchen.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right behind me and all that great stuff. And. And I. And I. The real mark of professionalism was that I had a whiteboard that I would write and draw things on and point at and refer to on audio. Right. That was the real mark of professionalism.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's right. Before there wasn't a YouTube, kids.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, this is back in the day.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Men were men. Well, okay. That.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That grievance has been lodged. We will take it under advisement. This episode, though, I don't know it. It's been. It's likely, I think that some people are going to get kind of excited at it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Not because of giants.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's not about giants. It's not about giants. It doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a good episode, but we are. Tonight we're going to be wading into what is the relationship between the sacrificial system of the Torah, the work of Christ in the gospels? What happens if you sin accidentally or on purpose? What. What is the relationship of all of that together? Because.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Or accidentally. On purpose.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Or on purpose. Accidentally. Because there is a whole lot of confusion out there, maybe among some of you about exactly what all of this means. And often, frankly, a lot of lines from the Old Testament are used as Proof texts ripped out of their contexts and thrown around to give this very kind of distorted theology. So, yeah, this is kind of a debunker episode in some ways.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. But we're also going somewhere.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Indeed.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is all leading someplace.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Positive purpose. Yes, yes. So where should we begin?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We're starting out here with specifically out of the sacrificial system. Right. In the Old Testament. And we've done episodes, right. We had a whole series of episodes of sacrificial system, but we're focusing first here on sin offerings, what they did and how they work, because there are some very popular misconceptions out there that are leading to the confusion. This is especially amongst our evangelical friends, although, like the rest of Protestantism in the U.S. frankly, a lot of it has become sort of evangelicalized. And there are a lot of Orthodox Christians who came from an evangelical background or who grew up in an evangelical environment and so have taken on some of these ideas. And even our Roman Catholic friends, just by virtue of being in the United States culturally and stuff, have absorbed some of these ideas, even though, for example, with them, it's not what their church teaches per se.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And it's not what the Orthodox church teaches per se. But people have these ideas in their head. They are fixed and unshakable, which technically makes them delusions, psychologically speaking. But we won't press that any further. But these are essentially what we're going to lay out here, especially in this first half, is these are modes of eisegesis, of reading into the biblical text that have been taught or otherwise ingrained into people, so that when you read or hear the text read, you just assume them. And so a lot of what we're going to start out doing is, okay, let's actually focus it. Is that actually there in the text? So we're going to start out by. And this is going to be a somewhat lengthy and repetitive reading. But if you're not into lengthy and repetitive, what are you doing listening to this show?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

We're not that repetitive.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, I say the same stuff over and over again.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I sometimes try to get you to do, like, Reggie retro episodes. Hey, let's go revisit that. You're like, I got something else to say.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, yeah, I mean, if I wanted to just give the same lecture over and over again, I'd be teaching somewhere.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, you looped your other podcast, although it took you, what, 10 years?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

12 and a half. Yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So no promises on this one, everybody.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, I'll find another co host and we'll go back and just redo each episode in the exact same order.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I can finally move on with my life.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Or maybe they should replace both of us. Maybe it'll be like the man show after, like, Jimmy Kimmel and Adam Carolla.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The new Lord of Spirits podcast will.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Basically be a drink review show. They'll bring in, like. Yeah, they'll bring in, like, Joe Rogan and Bill Burr or something and, like, prop them up anyway, so. But we're going to read at length here. We're going to read pretty much the whole thing of chapter four of the book of Leviticus, which probably isn't your favorite book, but maybe it should be, or at least higher up on the list than it is.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is where sin offerings, what they're for and how they're done is laid out. So Father Andrew is going to read that. We're having him do this early in the episode because he's going to start to nod off a little toward the end.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I'm already yawning.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. And that's just me boring you. And then we're going to take a look at some of the things that are commonly read into this text and ask if reading them in even works, even makes sense, let alone whether it's justified. But is it even reasonable to try to read them in? So that's. That's where we're going here. So pay attention here while Father Andrew goes through this, and we will then work through it. Do some commentary.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right, everybody, pull out your Bibles. Turn to chapter four of Leviticus.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Flip sword drill.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's right. Oh, I love sword drills. Leviticus, chapter 4. And the Lord spoke to Moses saying, speak to the people of Israel, saying, if anyone sins unintentionally in any of the Lord's commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them, if it is the anointed priest who sins, thus bringing guilt on the people, then he shall offer for the sin that he has committed a bull from the herd without blemish to the Lord for a sin offering. He shall bring the bull to the entrance of the tent of meeting before the Lord and lay his hand on the head of the bull and kill the bull before the Lord. And the anointed priest shall take some of the blood of the bull and bring it into the tent of meeting. And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle part of the blood seven times before the Lord in front of the veil of the sanctuary. And the priest shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of fragrant incense before the Lord that is in the tent of meeting. And all the rest of the blood of the bull he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting. And all the fat of the bull of the sin offering he shall remove from it the fat that covers the entrails, and all the fat that is on the entrails, and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them at the loins, and the long lobe of the liver that he shall remove with the kidneys, just as these are taken from the ox of the sacrifice of the peace offerings, and the priests shall burn them on the altar of burnt offering. But the skin of the bull and all its flesh with its head, its legs, its entrails and its dung, all the rest of the bull he shall carry outside the camp to a clean place to the ash heap and and shall burn it up on a fire of wood on the ash heap it shall be burned up. If the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they do any one of the things that by the Lord's commandments ought not to be done, and they realize their guilt when the sin which they have committed becomes known. The assembly shall offer a bull from the herd for a sin offering and bring it in front of the tent of meeting. And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the Lord. And and the bull shall be killed before the Lord. Then the anointed priest shall bring some of the blood of the bull into the tent of meeting. And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the Lord in front of the veil. And he shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is in the tent of meeting before the Lord. And the rest of the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting, and all its fat he shall take from it and burn on the altar. Thus shall he do with the bull. And as he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this. And the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven. And he shall carry the bull outside the camp and burn it up as he burned the first bull. It is the sin offering for the assembly. When a leader sins doing unintentionally any One of all the things that by the commandments of the Lord his God ought not to be done. And realizes his guilt or the sin which he has committed is made known by him. He shall bring as his offering a goat, a male without blemish, and shall lay his hand on the head of the goat and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the Lord. It is a sin offering. Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger. And put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering. And pour out the rest of its blood at the base of the altar of burnt offering. And all its fat he shall burn on the altar like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings. So the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin. And he shall be forgiven. If any one of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the Lord's commandments ought not to be done. And realizes his guilt or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed. And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill the sin offering in the place of burnt offering. And the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering. And pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar. And all its fat he shall remove as the fat is removed from the peace offerings. And the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the Lord. And the priest shall make atonement for him. And he shall be forgiven. We're almost there, everybody. If he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring a female without blemish. And lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill it for a sin offering. And in the place where they kill the burnt offering. Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger. And put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering. And pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar. And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings. And the priest shall burn it on the altar on top of the Lord's food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed. And he shall be forgiven.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay, Pop. Quit. No, I'm not Doing it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That was a pregnant pause there, Father Stephen, you were going to sleep well.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, you were lulling me off to. I know, I know.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's my soporific tones.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It was hypnotic. It was the repetition of certain words. So, yeah, so that's, that's. I mean, it seems pretty straightforward. Right. We basically got slight variations on theme four times in a row. The main difference being different animals. Right. Based on the different people involved who were offering the. The sin offering. So we're going to look at a few, like we said, a few of the assumptions that get kind of read into the text. Right. So the first one of these is one that comes up once in a while because I have many times said on this show and other places and to parishioners and probably in my sleep, to my wife, that there's not a place in the Old Testament where sins are placed on an animal and then it is sacrificed. Right. And every once in a while when I do that, not with my wife, when I say it in my sleep, but in other circumstances, someone who has been taught to read the text this way will point me to a passage like Leviticus 4 that we just read and say, well, look, before they kill the animal, whether it's a goat or a lamb or what have you, they lay their hand on it and they kill it. See? And so what it says, they lay their hands on and they kill it. That's where they're putting the sins on the animal.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. And you kill the animal with the sins on it so that you don't have to be killed.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. You punish the animal for the sins involved. Right. And it's. And there's this whole substitutionary thing going on.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, thanks.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We'll get to that part in a second. Right, so they say that's. That's what's going on in this sin offering. It just doesn't spell it out because obviously it doesn't literally say there anything about putting sins on the app. And maybe they will take you to. Or maybe they'll just refer generally to the fact that in Leviticus 16. Now keep in mind, if you've been paying attention, Leviticus 16 would be 12 chapters after Leviticus 4. Yep. The Day of Atonement ritual. Here's our two goat friends again. Where with the goat for Azazel, the scapegoat, they lay hands upon it and Aaron pronounces the sins of the people over it when he lays his hands on it. And they say so See, it doesn't spell it out in any of these other places, it only actually says that here in this one place, in Leviticus 16 with the day of atonement. But you're supposed to infer that all the other places where it says to, to lay hands on the animal before it's killed, you're also supposed to put the sins on it there as well. Okay, now there's. There's some obvious problems right off the bat. Like how when you're reading Leviticus 4, would you infer something from 12 chapters later?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. And. And in Leviticus 16, it doesn't say this applies everywhere and always nor.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, like, like usual. This is the usual process.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, exactly. In this chapter we even get. And then you do this like you do this other thing. You do this like you do this other thing. Yeah, you know, but. But that's not.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

If you're gonna say it once. If you're gonna say it once and then expect it to be inferred in the other places, you'd think the one place where you said it would be the first place.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And then you infer at the later places. Now even that would be pushing it because as you just heard Leviticus 4, it's not shy about repeating instructions.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

In.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The exact same words.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It doesn't leave you to infer anything. It gives you the whole set of instructions, of instructions repetitiously over and over again in each case with each animal. So that's also a problem. Right. There's also the problem of the animal where the sins are pronounced during the laying out of hands. The scapegoat, of course, is not then killed. It is led away. It is not killed. It is, nor is it sacrificed.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay. So you're supposed to infer that this animal that isn't killed and isn't sacrificed, that you follow the same procedure from that on all the animals that are killed and are sacrificed, even though the text doesn't say so.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You, you, hopefully anyone who formerly held that theory has already given it up. But just in case, let's really narrow in on this and let's just stick with Leviticus 16. Let's not talk about inferring into any other passage. Let's talk about Leviticus 16 itself. Just the day of atonement ritual.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because hands are laid on the goat for Azazel, the scapegoat, and the sins are pronounced over it and it is sent into the wilderness. The other goat, the goat for Yahweh, is offered as a sin offering.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's not the one that has the sins spoken over it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. And has hands laid on it. So are we to infer that when it says that the go for Yahweh is offered as a sin offering, that the sins were also read over it, even though Leviticus 16 doesn't say so? So that the same sins were pronounced over both goats according to this theory that the text doesn't. Leviticus 16 doesn't say that. Doesn't say you do that with both goats. It says you do that with the goat. That's not a sin offering. Doesn't say you do it with both.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But even beyond it not saying that. Right. It clearly being isegesis, you're just adding something to the text of scripture. Why would you do it on the two goats?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Aren't they already doing, like, daily sin offerings?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Well, first, why would you do it to both goats? Right. If I. If I put the sins on the goat for Yahweh and I kill it and offer it as a sin offering, why do I need to put those same sins on a second goat? What's the point of that? And then, as you just pointed out, if we're already doing this sin offering procedure with those sins in the daily sin offerings, why am I doing the Day of Atonement ritual at all? Haven't all those sins been taken care of? So you've already probably got it into your head, right, that that dog don't hunt in terms of trying to read in, right, the pronouncing of sins over every sin offering. But just in case there's still some doubt in your head, I mean, this may be a. Stop beating him, Father Stephen. He's already dead. But I don't care. I am pounding this thing to powder tonight. We have numbers 8. Numbers again. Another book of the Bible. That's everyone's favorite, but should be higher on your list. Numbers 8, 5, 13.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. Starting with verse 5. And the Lord spoke to Moses saying, take the Levites from among the people of Israel and cleanse them. Thus you shall do to them, to cleanse them, sprinkle the water of purification upon them, and let them go with a razor all over their body, and wash their clothes and cleanse themselves. Then let them take a bull from the herd and its grain offering of fine flour mixed with oil. And you shall take another bull from the herd for a sin offering. And you shall bring the Levites before the tent of meeting and assemble the whole congregation of the people of Israel. When you bring the Levites before the Lord, the people of Israel shall lay their hands on the Levites, and Aaron shall offer the Levites before the Lord as a wave offering from the people of Israel that they may do the service of the Lord. Then the Levites shall lay their hands on the heads of the bulls. And you shall offer the one for a sin offering and. And the other for a burnt offering to the Lord to make atonement for the Levites. And you shall set the Levites before Aaron and his sons and shall offer them as a wave offering to the Lord.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So in this passage, we read about how the Levites as a tribe are being offered by the other Israelite tribes as a sacrifice to the Lord. So they lay hands upon them to designate them as a sacrifice. And then, of course, as we just heard, they pronounce the sins of the people upon them and beat the Levites to death. No, not what we just heard. Right. But wait, and if you're going to say to me, well, no, you don't read it in there where they're laying hands on the Levites. My question to you is, why not?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

How do you know which Torah passages to read that into and which ones not to read it into? Right. If we're going to just read things in that aren't there, shouldn't we read it into all the place? And this isn't just. Well, no, this is laying on hands like ordination. No, it's not. We picked this example on purpose.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. The Levites are being offered as a sacrifice.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wave offering.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Now, yes. They're not literally offered as a wave offering. Okay. The other is lights did not, like, hoist the Levites up in the air and wave them back and forth or make the Levites do the wave or something. Right. That's not. That was actually my first thought, but this is. Right. They're laying hands on them in a sacrificial context. So if laying hands on something in a sacrificial context means pronouncing the sins over them, imputing your sins to them, then why doesn't it mean that here if that's what it means? Because it clearly doesn't mean that here.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Which means, I'm sorry, but you've got no case. Those of you who want to argue that you should just read the scapegoat procedure into sin offerings. You have no biblical case.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is a. You know, I could be nice about it and say, this is just some confusion. I could be less nice about it and say, this is a tradition of men. Right. Which you have rejected the Scriptures for.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But using your own weapons against them.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But that's. That's what it is. Right? It's not there. It's not the text. It's not how it works. So that's one. This idea that somehow sins were imputed to the animal before it was. Before it was killed. And that is a primary element in the sin offering. So that didn't happen. Okay, that didn't happen. Second assumption is related. Right? So this assumption is all should already be falling apart in your head based on that previous one falling apart. But this one has to do with the idea that there is some kind of substitution going on in the sacrificial system. Some kind of substitution. Now I have. This is. This is for our. Our orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ. Okay, you need to stop saying this whole we believe in substitutionary atonement, just not penal substitution thing. That's. That's nonsense. That doesn't mean anything. We'll have a little more on that later. Okay, but the idea here is that the person bringing the offering, the sin offering, by virtue of their sin, should receive the death penalty.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, every.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But instead, the goat, lamb. Yeah, the goat lamb, ram, sheep. Right. That's bull, calf, whatever, that gets killed. So sort of a death that is owed.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, people will probably point to Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death. I mean, I remember, you know, growing up in an evangelical context, I was told, if you sin even one time, you deserve to die. You know, that's. That's the way it is. It doesn't matter, no matter how small it is. You know, you tell one lie to your mom and dad.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, well, I could do all things through a verse taken out of context. So, yeah, if you actually read what St. Paul is doing there in Romans, he's contrasting the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In Jesus Christ, he's contrasting wages versus gift. That's the point of contrast. He's not trying to argue anything about whether every sin is worthy of death.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because what you find out if you read the Torah, and we're talking about the Torah here, we're talking about Leviticus. Right. Read the Torah. Not every sin has the death penalty in the Torah. No, in fact. In fact, as we'll see when we get into the third, you will sometimes get pushback from people when you suggest to them that the sacrificial system could deal with death penalty cases and people could not be executed.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, well, and also, frankly, based on another presupposition in First John, chapter five, it says, it's not all sin is unto death.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, it's just explicitly there.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Because St. John has read the Torah. So but you can see how that's at cross purposes too, right? Like, oh, no, if that sin requires your death, you can't go and sacrifice animals to forgive it. But then the same person turns around and says, oh, the way sacrifices work is that the animal dies instead of you. So this, this is why we're calling it confusion. We're calling it confusion because the same person will make directly contradictory statements like that, right? So this presupposes there's a death penalty for all sins, but only. Is there, like, not obviously the death penalty for all sins. There are different. You can call them punishments, you can call them means of reconciliation or restoration, different penances, whatever language you want to use. Not every sin, Right. And you know, petty theft was not punished by death under the Torah, Right. If you want an example, here is an example from Exodus 22:1 4, okay?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

If a man steals an ox or a sheep and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox and four sheep for a sheep. If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no blood guilt for him. But if the son has risen on him, there shall be blood guilt for him, he shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. If the stolen beast is found alive in his possession, whether it is an ox or a donkey or a sheep, he shall pay double.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So we have actually two examples that are sort of nested within each other. So we'll start with the. The you steal something, right? Notice if you steal something and you kill it or sell it, you are not killed in response, right? So the sin offering, you go and offer for the sin of stealing. It does not make sense for that to be like, oh, well, I need to be killed for stealing. Well, no, you don't, but the animal's gonna die instead. Well, wait, no, Right? No, you're gonna make restitution. That's if you, if you kill the animal or sell it, if you still have the animal, then you just pay back 2. You pay it less, right? You have to hook a little. Hook. Hook a little bit because you could return the original thing you stole plus some extra. Right? But again, you're not liable to death. You'll get stoned to death for that, right? So, doesn't make any sense. You notice even in the case of killing a person A thief breaks into your house, you end up struggling with him and killing him. That's punished differently based on whether it's day or night. So manslaughter isn't even punished with death? In some cases, yeah. So how does it make. How does this substitutionary death thing with all sin offerings work when there is no death required for most sins in the Torah?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Now, on top of this, let's. Let's suppose in imagination land that this. That this assumption were correct, that this thing being read in was correct. And, and so, okay, person has committed a sin, say, theft, okay? There is a price to be paid, and that price is the thief's life. Let's just assume that, okay? Even though that's not what the Torah says, but we'll assume that. Okay, so the animal is killed instead of him. The animal is substituted for him. It is killed in his place. It dies the death that is rightfully his. So he is now forgiven. Does he still have to pay back the person he stole from?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. Yes, he does.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. Well, why, if that's how the sacrifice works.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, exactly. Does it pay all the penalty for sins?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I thought the animal paid the penalty. Yeah, which was death.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. Or he goes and he returns the ox plus an extra one because the ox is still alive, and then he says, I don't have to worry about that whole sin offering thing because I. I took care of it. That's. That's not how this works. Right? It doesn't. Again, it doesn't make any sense. Okay, and once again, as we've pointed out before on the show, I know, the killing of the animal isn't even ritualized. The killing of the animal is not the sacrifice part. We don't have any instructions on how to kill it, what to kill it. But even more importantly, right, either either rewind this or go look at Leviticus 4 again. Who kills the animal? Who lays their hand on the animal and who kills it?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's the priest.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, actually, no. No. It's whoever's doing the offering.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's whoever's bringing the offering. Then the priest takes it and sacrifices it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Because I remember the first time, it is the priest, but he's the one who's the sinner.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Is he offering it for himself? Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caller Anash]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I noted that towards the end, it was not the killing.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Meaning the killing of the animal is not a priestly action. Yeah, it is not the sacrifice part. The sacrifice part is what the priest does with it after that's. What he does with it after.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. We need to get away from this idea that sacrifice. Is that the word sacrifice mean. And within this context. I understand English, you know, but within the context of the scriptures, sacrifice does not mean killing a thing.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, yes. This really changes. We've got too much other material, so we're not going down this rabbit trail. Don't worry, Father Andrew. But it really changes how you read Hebrews once you understand that Christ as the high priest offering himself as a sacrifice is not primarily about his death, about what he does after his death.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And it's not like some kind of weird suicide.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, right. But it's not his death itself. You've been taught that. It's Christ's death itself that is the sacrifice. That's not what Hebrews says. Hebrews says Christ is the high priest, enters the heavenly sanctuary and offers a sacrifice. You do that after the sacrifice is dead.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah. And just as a shout out. We've given many, many times now, but very worth making again, you know. Father Jeremy Davis book Welcoming Gifts really thoroughly explores exactly what is sacrifice and all of that. So we don't need to do the rabbit trail. It has been written as a book.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

For us. One of the books that Father Steven has said. I'm glad someone wrote it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Now I don't have to go. Yes, go. And go reread Hebrews while you're at it with that in mind and see what you understand. So once again, what do we see? Best case scenario, this whole substitution thing is confusion. Worst case scenario, this is a tradition of men that is putting it, not the words of scripture.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

By the way, I would be remiss if I did not add, being a good Ancient Faith Ministries employee, that Welcoming Gifts is now a podcast as well. And they just released the second episode. So there you go. Everyone go check.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Is he like, well, maybe I shouldn't do this. I don't know. Is he basically going through the book? Is he expanding on the book? Is he teaching the book?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's related to the book. Yeah, it's related to the book. A lot of it is about application and, you know, all that kind of stuff.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay, so there's new material in the podcast beyond what's in the book.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Absolutely, Absolutely.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The book is the jumping off point for the podcast.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. So, yeah, and it's called Welcoming Gifts, has the same name, but. But yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay. So, yeah, see, I'm helping you here. I'm helping you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Even if you've read the book, right? There's. There's. There's more there. There's more where that came from in this pod.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Indeed.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. So tradition number three.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Man made tradition number three. Piece of eisegesis, number three. Third thing that gets assumed and read into this text is, now, this isn't the. The other two have been sort of adding words and concepts. This one is a little more understandable because this is based on how you interpret or understand a word that is actually there.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So this is a. This is more of a misinterpretation than pure eisegesis.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. There's the word unintentional, at least is the word that was in. In the translation that I read earlier.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. Unintentionally. Someone says unintentionally. Other translations will have involuntarily or refer to involuntary sins. That kind of idea.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. Yeah. And so people get this idea that all of these sacrifices that we read From Leviticus chapter 4 earlier were for sins that people committed without meaning to or without.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like they did it on purpose. Yeah. Accidentally. And. But the thing is, the thing is a number of the sins that are the kind of thing you would offer these sacrifices for. There is no way to do them accidentally.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like I accidentally did an adultery.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. That's. Whoops. You know. No, that's not. That's.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I didn't even realize till three weeks later someone pointed it out to me.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Or I. I accidentally stole his goat.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know, I guess there are scenarios in which you could say, oh, I took the wrong goat. But that's not how it works. In the ancient world, that means you went to someone else's property and you took their goat.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You had been coveting your neighbor's goat and he had to.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. These are not. These are not accidental. Involuntary in that sense. That's not what's going on here. We'll talk about what.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What that means, but. So that's the assumption. You will hear this a lot. This is. This one. This one has been making the rounds a lot, very publicly.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know, it's weird. I was never.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's why we're hammering on this one right now.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But it's not. It's totally a thing on the interwebs. Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I think, you know, I think part of what's happening is. Is for whatever reason now, a lot of these sacrifices and stuff are becoming interesting to people in some evangelical traditions. Again, instead of looking at this stuff and they're. They're trying to read it in a way that. That you Know that supports the theology that they have about what sacrifice is for and all that kind of stuff.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah, but so what this would mean, if that's a correct interpretation, if what we're talking about here are accidental sins, Right. Truly unintentional. Right. That would mean that the entire sacrificial system, everything outlined in Exodus, Leviticus and numbers, in terms of the sacrificial system, in terms of the sacrifices at the great feasts, whether we're Talking about the 70 bulls for the 70 nations, whether we're talking about the Day of atonement, all this, all, all of that is just for dealing with whoopsies. All of this is for dealing with accidents. And there is no system in place for dealing with any sin that anyone commits deliberately. Right? Nothing. There's no way to do it. So I guess the person who stole had to restore the stuff, but there's no sacrifice involved at all.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But wait, we literally just read how that was required.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right? So.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That doesn't make any sense. Bluntly, we have this super elaborate system for dealing with whoopsies. But you know, your mom asked you if you ate the cupcake and you say no, oh, there's no way we're dealing with it. That's it. That's it. You're going to get henna. There is no, no way to deal with this.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, this is why they have to have all those kids, because they have to execute them left and right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. No reconciliation possible. Right. Cut off from among the people. This doesn't make sense. That's clearly not what's going on in the Torah. Okay, this also asks us to believe that again, despite what the Torah says repeatedly, that there was the death penalty for accidents.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Especially if you believe to the pre. Believe. Believe the previous two presuppositions that we just showed don't work. But if you do hold to those right, Then. Then you're saying that you deserve death for all these things that you did completely unintentionally, right? This is absurd. Right? This is absurd. You're clearing your ground, right? You accidentally knocked up a rock. It hits someone in the eye. You must die. Right? This, like, have you read the Bible? Like, is anything like that? Even in the tenor of the Bible, does any of that have anything to do with the character of God? Right? Like the God of the Bible at least, right? No.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That doesn't make any sense. And then what, what even is the concept of culpability? And there is a concept of culpability in the Bible. We Just proved over that Exodus passage we read where there's a different penalty for killing an intruder if it was at night versus in the day.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's an assessment of culpability. Yeah, that's what it was at night. It was in the dark. You didn't know what was happening. You didn't intend to kill the person. It was unintentional. Therefore, you are not guilty of his blood. You are not a murderer. Whereas if you do it in broad daylight and know what you're doing and you kill him, you are a murderer. That's culpability. That's. That's assessing culpability based on circumstances.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. And so if you. If you say that this only deals with accidental things and you deserve death for accidental things. Right. Then the whole assessment of culpability makes no sense. Right? If you took a goat thinking it was your goat, and then you found out, oh, it's not my goat, and you go and bring it back to the person whose goat it is, you're not a thief making restitution. You're correcting an error, an error that you made not because you're sinful and wicked, but because you're human and finite. Yeah, Right. There's a difference between an error and a sin.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

When I. When I misremember something on this podcast while we're live, someone that calls it, it asks me a question, and. And I misremember a date or a name or something. Right. I don't go to confession for that, guys.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You should.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. If I deliberately lied to someone, I would need to go to confession. Right. But making a mistake, an honest mistake, is exactly that. An honest mistake. Right. That's not right. So you have to get rid of the whole idea of culpability which is found in the text of the Torah in order to make this presupposition about the Torah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So this implies, as we said, that there is no forgiveness of voluntary sins. And then someone. Maybe I myself have done this, where someone will say this kind of thing and I'll say, so what about King David?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, that was pretty deliberate.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You're right. He didn't, like, accidentally impregnate another man's wife and then murder him to cover it up.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Oops. Yeah. Right? I mean, the sequence is pretty clearly laid out.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Yeah. And yet he's forgiven. And people will say to me, it responds that, well, that wasn't through the sacrificial system for deliberate sins. God just chose to forgave them. Okay, Now. Now we're officially back in crazy town. Okay, this is one of those things where people are believing things that do not make sense together. So apparently if you deliberately sin, you do something on purpose, something horrible on purpose, something that is worthy of death in the Torah on purpose. And you pray and you're honestly contrite, you ask God for forgiveness, he can apparently now just forgive you in the Old Testament.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. What is the deal with all those sacrifices?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But if you do something accidentally, you've got to go and offer, you know, impoverish yourself, offering from your herds and flocks to get forgiven for the. The boo boo you made. Right. So God could just forgive sins by hand waving for deliberate ones, even serious deliberate ones, but he can't overlook unintentional ones. Those we need this whole sacrificial system. This doesn't make any sense, folks. This doesn't make any sense. Okay, the sacrificial system clearly is for dealing with actual sins committed by actual people. And a big part of it being an actual sin, right, is that you took some action you could have known that you should not take.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, yeah, David definitely knew that Bathsheba was not his wife.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. And then when she got pregnant, he tried to lie and conspire to as quickly as possible get her husband to sleep with her so he could pass the child off as being her husband's. Okay, so there's another level of sin. He didn't do that accidentally. Right. And then when that plan didn't work because her husband was too righteous of a man to go along with it, he has him killed. Right. There's nothing accidental there.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And God does not, you know, send a lightning bolt.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. That's okay. Now all that said about how none of this makes any sense, this one any more than the other two assumptions we talked about. None of this makes any sense. None of these dogs on why. Why are people, lately especially this has become a really popular meme now to say the Old Testament sacrificial system did not. There was no way in the Old Testament to be forgiven for. For deliberate sins, for things you did on purpose. Why has that become a homie? Well, what they're trying to do, right. If you and I'm going to be fair, the people who bring this up bring it up into context. And the context they bring it up in is they're wanting to make a contrast between the Old Testament sacrificial system and the sacrifice of Christ. Yeah, that's what they're trying to do and say the sacrifice of Christ. This is so much better.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because the Old Testament stuff, the Old Testament sacrifice could only deal with accidental, unintentional sins, they say. Right. Whereas Christ's sacrifice, the forgiveness that comes in, Christ forgives. So there is a positive motivator here that's causing them to say this, even though what they're saying doesn't make sense when you really push on it, as we've just seen, Right. This is what they're trying to do. They're trying to make this contrast, right. That now in the New Testament, in the New Covenant with Christ's sacrifice, right. It's not just involuntary sins. You're forgiven for voluntary sins. And then though they read Hebrews chapter 10, verse 26.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Which says, for if we go on sinning deliberately, after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for, for sins. Uh oh, that's another good pregnant pause there, Father.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's our first half. All right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, on that cliffhanger, we're going to take our first break and we'll be right back.

[Narrator]

Father Andrew Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment to take your calls on the next part of the Lord of Spirits. Give them a call at 855-23-7234. That's 855 AF radio. Poised between east and west, between Orthodox and Catholic Lithuania, the last of Europe's pagan nations did not forget its ancient tales such as that of the giantess Neringa Eglay, Queen of serpents and the iron wolf. Rather, they fulfilled and enriched them with legends like the hill of crosses and the miracle working icon of Our lady of the gate of the dawn in the Wolf and the Cross. Father Andrew Stephen Damek and Deacon Seraphim Richard Rowland take a very personal pilgrimage into a land where history and legend have met and fused, where Orthodox Christians have lived as a minority for nearly seven centuries, their faith founded upon the blood of martyrs and the witness of dozens of saints. To find this book and others like it, you can go to store.ancientfaith.com Again, that is store.ancientfaith.com we're back now with the Lord of Spirits with Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Hey, we're back, everybody. And boy, I see the call board is just lighting right up and I'm sure gatekeeper Mike is frantically trying to type out, I know, I know There were no calls for the whole first half, and then suddenly, as soon as this break started finishing up, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So I'm sure they're all very pleased, and they're just calling to say ditto, I'm sure.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Exactly. Exactly. Wow, that brings me back. So, yeah. Yeah. Oh, wow. Some people hung up. I guess they're mad at what you just said. I'm not sure.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, that is what I was gonna say. Never mind.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, that's right. He was just gonna say ditto. No, I'm not gonna bother with that. So, yeah, we'll take a couple calls. So, first of all, we will take. I'm sure I'm going to mispronounce this here, but. Anash from Texas, although your phone says you're in Chicago, so welcome to the Lord of Spears podcast.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Hello.

[Caller Anash]

Greetings, Father.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Greetings. I'm sure I'm mispronouncing your name again. You've called before.

[Caller Anash]

Yes, I have. And last time I called in was from Madison, Wisconsin, and I'm calling from Texas.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Now you're getting.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Are you on the lam?

[Caller Anash]

On the lam. I'm not sure I know what that means.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

On the run. Yeah, it means you got warrants, you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Got away from law enforcement.

[Caller Anash]

From law enforcement. Oh, fortunately, I am not.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Caller Anash]

Okay, good.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right. All right. So what's on your mind, Anash?

[Caller Anash]

Yeah, so the place where you guys left off with kind of the New Testament, just in kind of conversations with friends and family, I think they've, I guess, sometimes pushed back on me for. I think not as much with the atonement part, but in the place where it's like, oh, well, Christ has offered the sacrifice, and therefore none of the ritual is necessary. And I. Yeah, I just. I think I just wanted to get your thoughts on that as, you know, like. Yeah, that kind of component, because, you know, it talks, like, in Psalm 50 or Psalm 51, you know, it talks about the heart. And you guys mentioned about. Oh, we'll get to that. Oh, okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. We will definitely get to that. Yeah, you're tracking with us, man. Yeah. I mean. No, you're right. This is absolutely a thing. I mean, I was raised evangelical, and this idea that what Christ did means that all of the stuff that, like, for instance, that we just read from Leviticus and whatever, that. That's all simply over now. You know, that. That. And they'll even say stuff like, jesus came to end religion, you know, which there's a big problem with. There's a lot of problems with that. One of the big problems with that is this idea that all of that is bad. Well, he's the one who gave those commandments to begin with. So like he came to save us from the system that he gave or something. You know, like, it just, it doesn't make sense, right, this idea of Jesus versus religion. I remember a number of years ago there was this big, this spoken word video that went around by a guy and it was titled something like why I Love Jesus But Hate Religion. And I remember, you remember that one, Father Cringe. I remember that one. And, and my favorite response to that was it was kind of snarky, but it was like, you know, oh, I'm gonna do a video called why I Love Broccoli But Hate Vegetables. You know, but it's, it's this idea, this idea that, that, that ritual, that sacrifice and so forth is some kind of man made thing. And then Jesus came to stop all of that. But that, that's basically sort of Marcionite. It makes out the God of the Old Testament to be a different God than Jesus or at least strongly implies that. Right? So yeah, I mean, there's so many problems with that idea. I don't know. Father, what did, what did you want to have to add to that other than groaning at my reference to that? Well, I think it was 2012 when that was, Boy, that was a while ago.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Something like that. Yeah. So the, the part of the problem of course is, right, ritual is what the guy who's higher church than me does, right? At least ritual when it's the bad kind.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because I, these family members, I bet if, if they're Christian, go to the same place on most Sunday mornings pretty much the same time and do a sequence of the same things, probably in mostly the same sequence. That's a ritual, right? That's a ritual. There's a whole bunch of rituals in the Old Testament. But this idea that Christ comes and he puts an end to ritual, that's equivalent to me to saying, yeah, Christ came so we don't have to worship God anymore.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's so weird. Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You see what I'm saying? Like, of course we still worship God. And the people saying this to you still, I'm assuming as best they know how, as they think is right, at least are trying to worship God. Right. So, you know, then the question is, well, no Christ coming and offering himself as a sacrifice, it's put an end to certain particular forms of ritual or particular forms of worship. To which I say, yes, I agree, we don't Sacrifice animals anymore.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. We now celebrate the Eucharist, which is a thank offering and participate in Christ's once for all sacrifice through the Eucharist. We don't sacrifice animals anymore. We don't get two goats on the Day of Atonement. At least at my church Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross, we don't get two goats and send one out into the bayou. Right. Those particular forms we don't do, but we still worship God. And the way we worship God is in continuity with the way that God has always told us to worship Him. It's in continuity doesn't mean every single detail is identical. Right, but it's in continuity. Christ does not just start a new religion. If Christ really just started a new religion, why do we even have the Old Testament in our Bible? Why don't we just have the New Testament if all that's done.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. Really, I mean, honestly, the general evangelical and a lot of Protestants reading of, of the Old Testament, it makes no sense to have it in the Bible because the way they read it as this is a whole bunch of practices that have been done away with by Christ. And this is a whole bunch of prophecies, shadowy prophecies of Christ. And now we see the truth of Christ in the Gospels. So why have it in your Bible? What's the point?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, that's what Marcion said.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. Well, I don't think your average evangelical thinks there's an evil Old Testament God.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, no.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But I mean, DBH isn't an evangelical. Right. Like your real Marcionites are not evangelicals. Right. But just in terms of why is it in your Bible? Yeah, why even have it? Why even read from it?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There's commandments in it, but you think most of those are done away with. The ones you don't think are done away with are repeated in the New Testament. So just use the New Testament. And the fact that you wouldn't do that, the fact that, you know, our Protestant and Evangelical friends still have enough of original Christianity in their religion. Right. That they know. No, I would never take the. Cut the Old Testament out of my Bible. Well, maybe that should change how you read it then. Maybe, maybe that view that, that, that the Old Testament is just as inspired and just as valid and just as important in your Bible as the New Testament. Maybe that ought to change the way you understand the continuity between the Testaments just de facto. Yep.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yep. Alrighty. Well, thank you very much for that. Call an ash and I'm sure we'll hear from you again.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There was a series of uncontroversial statements by me.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's why people tune in to get these spicy takes. Next. Next we have Georgia calling from Birmingham, Alabama. Georgia, welcome to Lord of Spirits podcast.

[Caller Georgia]

Hey, thank you, fathers. I am calling to represent the dozens of women listeners of Lord of Spirits, because there are dozens of us.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There are.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

There are more than dozens. There are more than dozens. You know, when we did. When we did the. The Lord Spirit's conferences, it was just about 50. 50 actually. So.

[Caller Georgia]

Wow, that's amazing.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You mean. Oh, it'll be showing up in the. The YouTube comments. Although actually it looks like there's plenty of women in the chat tonight. Wow. But.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But if I were a woman on the Internet, I don't know that if I would admit to being a woman on the Internet either. I remember back in the 90s, the joke always was that all the women.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

On the Internet are actually not. Which was on some level, kind of true, because it was a certain subset, especially the early 90s, the 80s, the early 90s, the Internet was not what it is now. I'll just say that it was quite a certain subset of people at universities, largely.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, I will say the early days of World of Warcraft, like female players, all played male characters so that people wouldn't know that they were women and harass them. And all the female characters you saw were like weird dudes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean. Yep, yep, all true.

[Caller Georgia]

Great.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But anyway, Tails from the Internet, what was your question, caller, we're here for you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Is this Georgia, whom I met in Birmingham?

[Caller Georgia]

Yes, yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right. Well, all right. Well, we're in the presence of greatness, everybody. This is an ancient faith.

[Caller Georgia]

So my question was about Genesis 3:16, the part where God is sort of telling, tells the serpent what will happen to him. And then before telling Adam that the earth will be cursed because of his actions, he tells the woman that she will have her pains greatly increased in childbearing. And I've heard, so I've heard sort of more orthodox perspectives on how Adam's. These words to Adam are more reflecting than the new reality of how creation will not work for him, but there will be a struggle between him and creation. And how. This is not, if I understand right, this is not necessarily like just a punishment from God, but a. A explanation of this is what you've done and this is what the consequences are. My question is, is that different for Eve? What is going on here for women? Is this just a punishment or is this something to do with the way the new body of, you know, garments of skin will work, the new body that God is giving them, the new shape and form that humanity will take after the fall.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. What do you think, Father?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So it is essentially the same dynamic. And so the way at this is, right? We've talked before on the show about how we talk about before the fall, right? In the creation of man and woman, they have this shared task that they accomplish together of filling the earth and subduing it, right? Setting the world in the creation in order and filling it with life. Each of them has one of those that they sort of major in and the other one that they minor in, right? So the man sort of majors in putting things in order, but participates in bringing life into the world. The woman sort of majors in bringing life into the world and minors in or participates in the putting of the world into order. And they cooperate. They do this together. That's the ideal. And so within the curse texts in Genesis 3, we see that each of them still has that purpose. Each of them is still created for that goal. But for both of them, it is now going to be with struggle and difficulty and hardship to do it. So the man is still going to take the elements of the earth and put them in order, right? And grow crops. But now there's going to be thorns, thistles, the sweat of his brow. This is going to be hard. This is going to be difficult, right? His work is going to be a difficult and hard task. And the woman is still going to bring life into the world, but now it's going to be difficult and painful and a struggle. And then added at the end of him talking to Eve, or soon to be Eve, right then, woman, but soon to be Eve. He also says, Robert, that the bit about her desire being for her husband and him ruling over her, right? That's talking about the cooperation between them breaking down, right? You doing this together, you working together is going to be its own struggle between the two of you. So the world into which they are expelled when they're expelled from paradise is one in which they still have this purpose. God does not take this purpose away. He is not cutting them loose and completely cutting them off. But now it is going to be difficult and a struggle in all ways. And the language there, when it talks about women struggling in childbirth is not just talking about giving birth to a child, right? That is sort of the archetypal example, as we've talked about in the show, of how a woman brings life, very literally new human life into the World in a very literal sense. Right. But that. That is an image for all of woman's purpose in bringing life into the world. But it's also an image of an image of all of being a mother. Right. Being a mother. Remember, her first son is going to murder her second son. Right. Part of what happens in this world is not just that, yeah, it hurts a lot while the baby is being born. And then fortunately, biologically, through hormone release and stuff, women mostly forget a lot of that pain until it happens again. Right. That. That's not like occurs. It's that everything that that entails watching your child live in this world that you and your husband have created and having to see the danger they're in and see them suffer and see those things. And this is why. This is what lies behind, sort of theologically, St. Simeon's statement to the Theotokos about a sword piercing her heart. Also, this is key to the church's understanding, which goes back at least to Saint Irenaeus of Lyon. So we're talking about mid second century of the Theotokos as the second Eve, Right. That she sort of, as the mother of Christ, feels in a very pointed way as she sees what the world that she and the rest of humanity have created, what that does to her son, what that does to her God. Right. That she experiences that. She experiences that pain, which is like a sword piercing her heart. So that I think is a better and more sort of full orbed picture.

[Caller Anash]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And if you're a woman without biological children. Right. Adopted children, just people you love. Right. In the world, people who are families. Seeing that, I think that's a more full or picture of what's going on there in the text and what it's pointing to.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Does that make sense, Georgia?

[Caller Georgia]

Yeah, that's very helpful. Thank you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You're welcome. Thank you very much for calling. All right, well, we've cleared off our callers, so we're going to roll on with the second half of this episode.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Or scared them off, as the case may be.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's right, we scared them off. Actually, one person in the YouTube chat said they called and then panicked and then hung up. So obviously, Mike is really scary.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Who knows how badly I'll roast you when your call gets put through.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Just as long as you're not 100% confidence and 0% knowledge. Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I will hurt your feelings with my words. People beware.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. All right, well, speaking of Hebrews, and.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You left us on that big cliffhanger, that dire cliffhanger.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's right. That's right of.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, intentional or deliberate or willful or purposeful sins aren't forgiven by Christ in the New Testament either, according to Hebrews 10:26. Well, let's. Let's read that in context.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, Hebrews 10, reading verses 26 through 30. For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and has outraged the spirit of grace? For we know him who said, vengeance is mine, I will repay, and again, the Lord will judge his people.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, taking it in context didn't help, did it?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You were kind of hoping, you know, we read a couple more verses and let you off the hook, right? Nope. No sacrifice for deliberate sins. Just a fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. By the way, the adversary is meeting the Satans.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So.

[Caller Anash]

Huh.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Seems like the New Testament uses the exact same language about what sins are forgiven by Christ's sacrifices the Old Testament uses about the sacrificial system in general.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Huh.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So if we think that the Old Testament sacrificial system only dealt with whoopsies, then that would mean, according to Hebrews at least, that Christ's sacrifice, the forgiveness that comes in. Christ only deals with whoopsies and accidental sins.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Like literally, if you sin on purpose, there is no hope for you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. That's what Hebrews says right there. Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Which you know, listeners, you know who you are.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So. Yeah, and it's not just right, it's not just Hebrews. But here's what's interesting. Here's what's interesting. I am not proposing any kind of conspiracy. I will point out a lot of our English translations soften a lot of these texts, even. Even that Hebrews text. Father Andrew, just read their translation of Hebrews 10, verse 26. Is if we go on sinning deliberately. It doesn't say go on sinning.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

What does it literally say?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It says if we sin deliberately after. If we sin willfully, if we sit on purpose after receiving the knowledge of the truth.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. It's not like there's a certain number of times you have to do It, Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But our friendly English translator has patted that it would keep on sinning. I mean, every once in a while you just got to, you know, knock it off at some point. Right. Well let's, let's look at exhibit B of this, which is in first John, chapter three.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay, Reading verses four through six. Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness. Sin is lawlessness, you know, that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning. No one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. So is it, is it keep on is all that keep on keeping on in, in the Greek.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, keep on keeping on or, or making a practice of. Yeah, no, that's not the original text either.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. So what it more literally would say is everyone who sins also practices lawlessness. And then later on in verse six, no one who abides in him sins. No one who sins has either seen him or known him.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's what the text says.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, that's the literal sense of the text. Although it's interesting. We, we looked at. So this is, we were reading from the esv, which normally pretty good, pretty good. But we, I, I looked this up in the Net Bible, which is kind of a wooden translation, but it's got all those great notes. And the Net Bible doesn't do all that keep on keeping on. It just, it's very direct. It's very much more literal. You know, everyone who sins.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah. So I think we can see that at the very least we don't want unintentional sins in the Old or New Testament to be referring to accidental sins. We gotta at least hope this is referring to something else.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Good news everyone. Good news everyone. It does refer to something else.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes, yes. It's not.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And this isn't.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, I would say the dichotomy is not between whoops, I didn't mean it and yeah, I meant it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Oh, I did that on purpose. Oh, I didn't even realize I did that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, that's not where this, it, it doesn't fall in that line. It falls along the lines of what the Bible calls the high handed sinner. Well, that's the good, I mean that's a literal translation and it shows up that way. You know, sinning with a high hand is how it shows up in the, the King James Bible, which is still my favorite in terms of the way that it sounds and then determining everything.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Else, what is, what is being contrasted with quote, unquote, unintentional sins or involuntary sins versus the opposite. Right. This isn't going to be me retranslating and padding the text. This isn't going to be isogening anything. We're just going to go back to the Torah to see what the Torah means by it and what it contrasts unintentional sins with.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Specifically, we're going to first go to numbers 15, 27, 30.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. If one person sins unintentionally, so whatever that means, he shall offer a female goat a year old for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the person who makes a mistake when he sins unintentionally to make atonement for him. And he shall be forgiven, even shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally for him who is native among the people of Israel and for the stranger who sojourns among them. But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is a native or a sojourner, reviles the Lord and that person shall be cut off from among his people.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. So this text is contrasting the person who sins unintent, quote, unquote, unintentionally, with the person who sins with their hand held high.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Why would they be whole? It's like. So when David decided he's going to commit adultery, he held his hand up in the air.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. He raised his hand because he was sure.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wow, that's. That's a, that's an ancient reference right there. So.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. And so the imagery of the person sitting with their hand held high, the idea is there is that they're taking an oath.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They're sort of swearing to it. They're owning what they're doing. Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Which I mean, even, even in the United States, when someone's taking an oath, don't they do that? They hold their hand up. Raise your right hand. Repeat after me.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You know, but you might say to me, Father Stephen, you might say that's just your interpretation of what it means to be a high handed sinner. Okay, let's go back into the Torah again.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Deuteronomy 29, 18, 20. Get a little more detail on this person.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. Beware, lest there be among you a man or woman or clan or tribe whose heart is turning away today from the Lord our God to go and serve the gods of those nations. Beware, lest there be among you a root bearing poisonous and bitter fruit. One who, when he hears the words of this sworn covenant blesses himself in his heart, saying, I shall be safe, though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart. This will lead to the sweeping away of moist and dry alike. The Lord will not be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the Lord and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and the curses written in this book will settle upon him and. And the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I love that translation of does it matter if you're dry? It doesn't matter if you're moist.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well done.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Young, old, rich, poor.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Moist and dry. Arizona, southern Louisiana. That would be moist.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

What is that? Yeah, you're definitely in the moist. Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I want to know what that means.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But we probably don't have time to jump into that. It's a similar set of imagery, right? Yeah. They're in the desert. Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There's a similar set of imagery to the whole hot, cold, lukewarm thing in Revelation.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, this example is someone who's, who's. Who has decided and says in his heart, you know what? I'm fine even though I'm fine even though I know that I'm stubbornly worshiping idols when I should be worshiping the one true God.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

God, yes. He says, you don't know me. I do what I want. Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right, exactly. So right does. What is right? Doesn't care. Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

He raises his hands in the air and raises him like you just don't care.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, because he don't. He just.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Exactly. So that's the high handed sinner, the unrepentant sinner. The sinner who's willing to kind of take an oath on it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That is it. And that is what the Torah is doing. What the Torah is doing repeatedly is the Torah is forbidding the offering of sacrifices for unrepentant sin. You cannot go and offer a sacrifice and receive forgiveness for a sin that you have not repented of by virtue of the sacrifice. Someone else cannot offer a sacrifice for you to get you forgiveness of a sin that you have not repented of. Right. That's not how this works. It's not how any of this works.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And it's not just the Torah that says this. This principle from the Torah is all through the rest of the Old Testament.

[Caller Anash]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So for example.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Psalm 51, or in the Greek Psalm 50, verses 16 through 19. This is a famous.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. Which our caller referenced earlier.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And solemn passage.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's always hard for me to read any translation of this out loud, because there's one in my head. Every Orthodox priest has this in his head. It's usually not the one in front of him. All right, starting with verse 16. For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it, you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart, O God you will not despise. Do good to Zion in your good pleasure, build up the walls of Jerusalem. Then will you delight in. Right. Sacrifices and burnt offerings. And whole burnt offerings. Then bulls will be offered on your altar, which, I mean, Anash said earlier. It's like, well, you know, what about where it says in the psalm, sacrifices of God are broken spirit, a broken contrite heart, O God you will not despise. For whatever reason, a lot of people, they remember that bit and then forget the last verse which says, and then we're going to do sacrifices. And it's not a metaphor because it talks about, like bulls being offered on the altar, you know, actual animals being sacrificed.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah. This is again, one of those really horrible logic fails because that's very common from a lot of our evangelical and some of our Protestant friends. Alas, to get that, oh, sacrifice is your contrite heart. Right. Whereas what David is, is clearly saying is that after his repentance, Right. God doesn't just want the sacrifice, he wants his repentance. And then after his repentance, then he will go and offer the sacrifice, which is exactly what the Torah says you're supposed to do. And by the way, David is here saying he is going to offer sacrifices for things he did on purpose.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. And traditionally this, this previously psalm is held to be his repentance for the sin with Bathsheba.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But, yeah, this is the keep reading thing. It's. It's the same problem when Protestants come to you and say, you shouldn't ask saints to pray for you, because there's one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. And if you just read a few more verses, St. Paul says, therefore I desire that intercessions be made for all men.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, no.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Therefore, because there's one mediator. That's why St. Paul says to make intercessions. And they will literally quote you that one mediator thing to say the exact opposite of what St. Paul was saying, that you shouldn't ask for intercessions.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so the same thing, here they are quoting to you this thing that God desires delight and sacrifice that he Wants a contrite, noble spirit to say the opposite, that God. No, no. Don't do sacrifices, which is the opposite of what David is saying here. If you read a couple more verses, yeah, people, you can read more than one verse at a time. I believe in you. I believe in you. Yeah. Sacrifice is the last step of repentance. Okay. Sacrifice is a meal. We've talked about sacrifice. It's a meal of reconciliation.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You have squashed the beef. Now you break bread together.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Repentance is all of the action to make things right that precedes that sacrifice, that meal.

[Caller Anash]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's what repentance is. So the sacrifice is not, in and of itself, repentance. The sacrifice becomes. The sacrifice performs its function of reconciliation because of your repentance. And so, in keeping with what David is saying here, we've mentioned. I think I've only ever done it in vague terms, actually on this show, although there's a lot of this show. But, yeah. So the meal is the end, right. And it's the repentance that precedes the meal that makes the meal effective in reconciliation. So, Father Andrew, I'm going to need you to grunt every about 30 seconds for the rest of the podcast. Just so I know I'm still connected.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I could just go, huh?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Huh? Huh? Oh, really?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You could cough lightly. Anything. Anything, really.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The chat is wondering if. If we are. It just says Father, so it could be either you or me. They want to know if. If we're tea or coffee, guys. What? Which are you? Your coffee. Yeah, I'm. I'm mostly coffee.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You want tea, boy, wake up and smell the coffee.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I'm mostly coffee, but I do drink tea every so often, and it's usually Earl Grey, which, of course, started because of Captain Picard, but. But when I tasted. I realized I actually liked it, so. But I'd never heard of it before.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I do drink unsweetened iced tea. What is cold? Cold and bitter. Like my soul unsweet.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I haven't they deported you yet?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, no, it's. I have to go to extreme measures, like in east. Like down here in South Louisiana, it's not as big a thing.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, but are you serious?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like, when I lived in East Texas. Oh, yeah. Everybody down here is liquored up all the time. When I lived in East Texas, though, like, I had. I had the scam figured out, right? Because if you asked for unsweet tea, people would look at you like you were the worst abomination from the pit of hell. Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, so.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What I would do is I would ask for it, and then when they started to make the face, I would be like, I like to add my own sweetener.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, nice.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And then they'd be like, oh, oh, okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, you want to get.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I remember. So, I mean, I'm moving back to North Carolina, and honestly, there are certain elements. People may not believe this, but there are certain elements of Pennsylvania cuisine, which I will miss. However, no offense, Pennsylvania, but I think, on balance, North Carolina kind of wins on this. And one of the things, of course, that is everywhere there is. In almost any restaurant, you can simply go in and order tea. And they understand that that means iced, and they understand that that means sweet to such an extent that a friend of mine who is from Shelby, North Carolina, which is not, you know, like the kids from Shelby go to Gastonia to party. While the kids from Gastonia are in Charlotte to party, he visited New York City. He sat down at a restaurant, and he ordered tea, and they brought him out a cup of hot water and a tea bag, and they. He was dumbfounded. He had no idea what even was.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Even supposed to do with that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That equipment at all. So I don't know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

For an outsider's perspective, for those of you who have not spent time in the south, across a vast swath of the American south, when you go into restaurants, they will bring you a hummingbird feeder as an oper. That is what happens.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No, I drink unsweetened iced tea. I drink it unsweetened, cold, and bitter.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, Just like your heart.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, exactly.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But I want sludge. I want syrupy sludge in the bottom of my teeth.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Like, if I want to drink Kool Aid, I just drink Kool Aid. Okay. Like these hybrid drinks.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So someone in the chat is saying, don't order sweet tea in Canada. You'll be sorely disappointed. I mean, that kind of goes without saying.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. What would you. What would you eat with it? Like, sweet tea and poutine. Like, what. What is even happening here?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Poutine. Yeah. Any Canadians in the chat tonight?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So I'm feeling. I'm feeling reliable with the connection. So let's soldier ahead.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay. You know, it was really cold and bitter. A lot of the Israelites.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And so that's way to youth pastor, that one.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. What we find in the prophets, right, Is what we find in the prophets is we get to this phase in the history of the northern kingdom of Israel, sort of the final phase of their existence, and the southern kingdom of Judah, where they are so unrepentant and so advanced in their unrepentant wickedness that God no longer wants sacrifices from them. God rejects their sacrifices and he even tells them through the prophets to stop offering them. And we referred to this I know, a few times on the show in the past in general, but tonight we're going to actually look at a few of those passages, starting with in Isaiah chapter 1.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Alrighty. Isaiah chapter 1, starting with verse 11. What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices, says the Lord. I have had enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of well fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls or of lambs or of goats. When you come to appear before me, who is required of you? This trampling of my courts bring no more vain offerings. Incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and the calling of convocations, I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed feasts, my soul hates. They have become a burden to me. I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you. Even though you make many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, that's cool. No, that imagery at the end, you have to imagine that the prayer posture that you'll see a lot of orthodox Christians use during the Lord's prayer, where they have their hands held out and sort of cupped, that was already a common prayer posture at this point. And so the imagery is that they're spreading out their hands to pray in that prayer posture, but their cupped hands are full of human blood. So it's even more metal than you thought, maybe. And so he doesn't accept, right? And this isn't just the sacrifices, right? This is the sacrifices, this is the Sabbath, right? This is the feasts that God told them to do, right? He's telling them to stop doing right, all of it, right? Because they are unrepentant, right? Because they are guilty, they are high handed sinners, right? They have not repented. And so not only do the sacrifices not do anything right, but doing them anyway, doing them in this hypocritical way right, is in itself an abomination before God is itself a slap in God's face. To think that somehow he doesn't notice, or that somehow you're receiving forgiveness automatically or whatever it is you're thinking, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

This is almost to kind of paganize, you know, your relationship with God.

[Caller Anash]

So.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But it's not just Isaiah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's also, for example, amos, amos, chapter five, verse 21. I hate, I despise your feasts and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies. Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. And the peace offerings of your fattened animals, I will not look upon them. Take away from me the noise of your songs to the melody of your harps I will not listen. But let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like an ever flowing stream. It's interesting. It's not just sacrifices he doesn't want. He's also not interested in, you know, songs and music. So the people who think this is all like, it's an anti ritual thing, well, you better stop singing in church too, you know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Now you. Yeah, and feel free, like if you see the local worship team, just hit him with Amos 5:23.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I have a request. Could you sing that song? It's Amos 5:23.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It says take away from me the noise of your songs.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, good praise for it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Verse 24 there. Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like an ever flowing stream. Gets used all the time politically. And you know what's odd? I've never heard that used politically in the context of disingenuous worship.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And it could be. I mean you could craft a politically. Like, America claims to be a Christian nation, but we're unrepentantly wicked. Right. I mean you could, you could. That's a launching point for something. Right? But yeah, that's usually not how it's quoted. Right, but so what's the idea? Let justice roll down. Is saying what? Justice, the correct order of things. You need to repent, need to put things right. Okay. That's what you need to do first. Then come and celebrate the feasts, Then come and bring me the sacrifices, then come and sing me the psalms right after the repentance has happened. Okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So the sacrifices don't magically do the repentance for you. Yeah, the repentance comes first.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Then the worship. More on this theme from Jeremiah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Who was not a bullfrog. At least not this one.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Cheeriest. One of the cheeriest books in the Bible. Okay. Jeremiah, chapter 7, starting with verse 21. Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat the flesh. For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices, but this command I gave them, obey my voice and I will be your God. And you shall be my people and walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Now this is an interesting one.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Works righteousness.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because if you stop at the end of verse 22, you'd be awful confused. The day I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers and command them concerning bird offices and sacrifices like he literally did.

[Caller Anash]

Hmm.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay, so how do we understand this?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He literally did.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. The point that's being made here is not God never wanted sacrifices from them at all.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. There's just an order.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The point was. Yes. What did I tell? I told you I wanted you to live in this way, and those sacrifices and stuff were part of living in that way.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But they're not a replacement for it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Offering sacrifices. Right. Seeking regular forgiveness is not a substitute for repentance and is not the same thing as repentance.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Repentance is getting things back in order, recommitting to following in God's ways, making the reparations you need to make. Right. Making the amends you need to make, doing the things you need to make up for what you've done then. Right? Then the sacrifices, then the worship, then those things have their part. You make things right first, then you worship. It's almost like you know what Christ said? You're on your way to give your offering. You realize someone has something against you, you stop, you make that right first, then you go and offer the sacrifice. Right. It's almost like this is remarkably consistent through the whole Bible, huh? Almost. And speaking of the whole Bible, if you got one of them Protestant Bibles, last book of the Old Testament, Malachi.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Alrighty. Malachi, chapter one, starting with verse 10. Oh. That there were one among you who would shut the doors, that you might not kindle fire on my altar in vain. I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord of hosts. And I will not accept an offering from your hand. For from the rising of the sun to its setting, my name will be great among the nations. And in every place, incense will be offered to my name. And a pure offering for my name will be great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts. So is this a contrast? Like, Israel's not doing it right, but the nations are going to be doing it? Is that the idea here?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, yeah. So the verse 10 is talking about like, I wish one of you would just go to the temple and shut it all down.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right? Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Just lock the doors, turn out the lights. Right. It's over. Right. But the Lord is going to be worshiped, truly worshiped by the nations. Right. Prophetically.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But that's going to follow the idea. The implication here is that's going to follow the same order, meaning the nations are going to repent. It's not that the nations are going to continue to be idolatrous and sexually immoral and keep doing all the things they're doing at the time Malachi is written. They're just going to start offering sacrifices to Yahweh. So it'll be all good. Right, right. No, that's the problem with Judah. Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's that they're going to actually repent and then come and offer worship.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And this is one of the very early. You get some more of this in the New Testament, this jealousy idea that God brings the. The other nations to repentance in order to provoke Judah to jealousy so that they will also repent. The goal is that they would repent as well. Right. And return to worship God. It's also interesting to me though, that a lot of our evangelical friends will say things like, if possible, if it makes sense, you should always interpret biblical passages literally. They're all about the literal interpretation of the Bible. Not all.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Which is why they're all, you know, using incense in their services.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right, exactly. But somehow when we get to Malachi, chapter one, verse 11, in every place, incense will be offered to my name and a pure offering, the whole offering incense and offering a sacrifice everywhere. Well, that, I mean, it's clearly just a metaphor that can't be literal. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you gotta have allegory for some passages. Right. Like, clearly, this is the one. Yeah. So, so why, why are we going through this? Well, where we've arrived at here is that the sacrificial system in the Old Testament, Old Testament religion, the religion of ancient Israel, Right. Was never transactional. It was never sort of mechanical.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. You couldn't just sort of buy forgiveness by offering the right sacrifice.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. It was never this system where you plug in certain inputs, you get the same outputs no matter what. Right. Because like in the prophets, Father Andrew just read, right. The people of Israel and Judah are continuing to put in the same inputs, Right? And God is saying, you're not going to get the outputs you want. The results you get from those inputs are no longer going to be good. In fact, they're going to be exactly what you don't want. Right. So it was never this transactional mechanical system.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And that was the point that these distinctions that we've been talking about like, quote, unquote, involuntary sin. That's what these distinctions were aimed at, were aimed at breaking the idea for the Israelites that God or salvation or faithfulness, religion, whatever label you want to put on it, they're almost all kind of a little bit anachronistic, but whatever label you want to put on that, that that was not mechanical.

[Caller Anash]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Breaking that idea in their terms, you know, they didn't have a lot of mechanisms, but in their time, but for them, it would have been more magical, the idea that, you know, you do the correct incantation or do the correct thing and it produces this result automatically.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But for us, mechanical, it was breaking and shattering, that idea. And so in the forthcoming third half, we're going to talk about, hey, if we've now learned from the whole Bible by looking at the sacrificial system that faithfulness to God is not something true religion is not something that's mechanical and transactional, does that have any effects on any other parts of theology?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, on that second cliffhanger, we're going to take our second and final break. And we'll be right back.

[Narrator]

Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment to take your calls on the next part of the Lord of Spirits. Give them a call at 855237. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Elizabeth has a problem. She wants to pray in church more than anything, but every time she tries to pray, her feet start tapping. How can she pray if she can't stand still? When a dragon appears on the monastery's land and the only solution is prayer.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Elizabeth worries even more.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

She turns to the abbess and the saints for help. Through their guidance and intercession, Elizabeth learns.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That our whole bodies have a place in prayer.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And sometimes our spiritual weaknesses can be.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

A gift that God uses for great good.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

This wonderfully fun story, illustrated to capture the hearts of busy children, was inspired by the life of the 6th century Saint Elizabeth the Wonder Worker. You can find a saint's guide to praying with your [e-mail] that's store.ancientfaith.com.

[Narrator]

We're back now with the Lord of Spirits with Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 858-552-3-72346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Hey, is that the first children's book that has ever been advertised on this show?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, which is ironic since this show is not for children.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But but it was a children's book about a dragon.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So I mean, I mean, we do. We do have a new producer that is less prone to the. The salty language, shall we say? That's true sailor talk. So it is a little more kid friendly than it used to be, maybe.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's right. That's right, exactly. Let's all give up, have a moment of sadness that we no longer have Trudy the Tank Richter on board. Oh, well, so. But we are getting a caller.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So is this the coward from the. The chat or is it. And they finally found a spine?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, no, this is. We've got William of Tennessee, so. William of Tennessee. I don't know if. If Mike. Oh, did you just hang up, William? Or Mike just hung. Hung him up. See, look at that. I'm looking at the call board and just disappears. No, wait, he might be back. He might be back. So exciting that the. The. The anticipation. Are you there, William?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What is Dagan doing over there, man? He's dropping me. He's dropping collars. Get it together, man.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Sorry. William, are you there? I am.

[Caller Anash]

Can you hear me, Father?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes, we hear you. Welcome, welcome.

[Caller Anash]

I'm just one of those people who called in just to say ditto but was missed in the second half.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Caller Anash]

No, actually, the question actually came up in the. This end of the second half in regards to the offering of incense and how that relates to the sacrificial system. So it's been reiterated multiple times that a sacrifice is a meal that's consumed. Incense seems to be in an interesting place. I'm not aware of anywhere in the Old Testament that incense is used as a sin offering. But at the very least, the pagans tried to force Christians to offer incense sacrifices to the gods, even though incense isn't quite a meal. But also we have the incense that we will sense the icons with, and we see that as something different than the sacrifice of the Eucharist. So what the heck is going on with incense and sacrifice?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

What is going on? Well, I mean, if you look at the sacrifices in the Old covenant, then you'll notice there's a pattern between the eaten sacrifices and the incense sacrifice. And that is that. And correct me if I get any of this wrong, Father, I'm just going from memory here, that is that the various kinds of sin offerings and so forth are offered so that those doing that offering are purified so that incense can be offered. Right. So there's a purifying effect of the sin offerings and so forth so that the incense can be offered to God. Right. So that's. And the incense is offered on the. Inside the actual tent, whereas the other sacrifices are offered outside of that holy of holies. And then, of course, you know that as a. That maps also into the temple when that's built. Is that all correct, Father? Am I getting that right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The words of the late, great Charlie Murphy. Wrong? No.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, man. I thought it was right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, I don't know. It was weird. Like, there are a couple of things. So, like, incense wasn't offered in the holy of Holies. Incense was offered in the holy place.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's where the altar of incense was.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay, right. And that was the. That was the baseline. So the incense offering was the baseline. That commandment comes earlier than the sacrifices.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so that happens at morning and evening.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay, yes. Right. Like vespers and orthros.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. And so in terms of the offering of incense, right. We're burning something and the smoke is rising. You have to think of it in terms of like a whole burnt offering, a sacrifice, an animal sacrifice. That's a whole burnt offering. How is that given to God? It is burnt. The smoke arises to God. And the Scriptures describe God's receiving of it as a sweet fragrance in his nostrils. Right. So the idea is through the smell, that God is receiving it. We even say this. We say this in the liturgy, maybe. Unless you're in a parish where the liturgy, they skip the litany before the Lord's Prayer, but if they don't. One of the petitions, we talk about the Eucharist in those terms. Actually, we talk about Christ receiving the Eucharist as a savor of spiritual sweetness or an aroma.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

In our more recent translations.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, they changed to aroma. Before that it was odor.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Odor. Yeah, I know. Aroma is.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They changed it to savor, and now I guess it's aroma.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Aroma is better. Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But so there's that language. So you can see how that there's a direct parallel there with incense. Right. We offer the incense to God. Okay. So the purificatory thing is actually after the fact, not before the fact.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So when we are offering incense in the Orthodox Church, the priest says the prayer of offering the incense, which is incense. We offer thee, O Christ, our God, as a Savior of spiritual sweetness, receive it upon thy most Holy and ID altar, and send down and return upon us the grace of Thine all Holy Spirit. Right. I'm just doing for memory, but I've kind of done that a few thousand times literally now.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Pretty close.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. So we're offering. Right. When we're sensing the icon of a saint or we're sensing a human, right. We're sensing the bishop or clergy or laity, we are not offering the incense to them, right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, it's offered to God.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That prayer is the offering of incense. We are offering the incense to Christ. So that's the worship element. We're offering the incense to Christ as a savor of spiritual sweetness, as we say in the prayer. Right. But the offering in the offering, in the process of burning it, it produces smoke. And so within all sacrificial ritual, this is another thing that parallels animal sacrifice. Once the thing has been offered as a gift. Right. To the divine. So I'm just talking about sacrificial ritual in general. Now, the byproduct of that offering is seen as holy. And in being holy, it now has purificatory effect. So in the case of animal sacrifices, like the goat for Yahweh, the sin offering on the day of atonement, that is the blood. The blood. That is the byproduct drain when you're offering the animal to God, the blood has now become sacred, and that blood can now be used to purify the sanctuary.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Or in the case of the sin offerings of Leviticus 4, that blood is smeared. That word smear there is kefir, right? Kapur, atonement.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

On the altar. Right. It's used to purify the altar, and then the rest is poured out.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So in the same way with incense you don't have. Incense doesn't produce blood, it produces smoke. And so the smoke, because the incense has been offered to Christ, it has now left the realm of the profane into the realm of the sacred. And now the smoke is made holy by it being incense being offered to God. That smoke now has purificatory effects. And so when we sense things with the smoke, the smoke has the purifying effect because it is the smoke generated by incense that has been offered to Christ. Okay, that's it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right, so then what is the significance of the fact that, like, animals are offered further out and the incense kind of further in, in the tabernacle and temple?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because you can't do a whole burn offering inside a tent. Okay, so it's in the courtyard.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Gotcha, Gotcha. All right, William, does that. Does that cover it?

[Caller Anash]

I think so. So incense is a sacrifice. It is consumptive. It's offered to Christ, but we don't use it as a sin offering. We use blood because life is in the blood. Is that about right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right, right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. It's not consumed, though. Like, incense is not consumed. It's not eaten.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, it's consumed by. Via the nose.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. I mean.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right, yeah. In the same way that God could. It's consumed by the fire, technically.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and it's. And it's within, like, it's all within this matrix of hospitality. Right. That's what's going on in sacrifice is. Is this sense of hospitality being offered.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But, yeah, incense offering is not a sin offering.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, right, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It is a. It is a different type of offering.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Caller Anash]

So thank you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right. Thank you very much for calling. We have. We actually have the caller who called in and panicked and hung up. So it's. It's David from Minnesota. David, welcome to Lord of Spirits podcast.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Have you removed the yellow streak from your back, sir?

[Caller Anash]

No. No.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay.

[Caller Anash]

I was too frozen in shock.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, you are in Minnesota, so I would expect you to be frozen about now.

[Caller Anash]

Oh, yeah, it's frigid. It's frigid outside.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There's ice everywhere up there, so I'm very happy.

[Caller Anash]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So what's on your mind?

[Caller Anash]

So I come from a, like, Pentecostal background with a guy who is a glutton for Martin Luther and Calvin. Like, our pastor would just read them a lot, so he loved the whole wrath on Jesus thing. And you guys were kind of talking a little bit of the sin thing at the beginning. Right. Psa, penal substitutionary atonement. It's hard to get out of your head, but I just had a single question about a specific verse in Psalm 87 in the Greek text Saint Augustine and Saint Athanasius interpret. Now, I've tried reading it. I just realized that my brain is not smart enough to comprehend what they're saying. But it's. When it says in verse 8, upon me hath thine anger fixed itself, and all thy ways hast thou aimed at me. They did apply that to Jesus. I didn't understand how it worked in the sense of, like, I know that it's not, you know, if wrath in orthodox theology is approaching glory unworthily, Christ can't be unworthy. So I just wanted to hear you guys 2 cents on what that means and how that applies to Christ.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. All right, so that's. Yeah, Psalm 87 in Septuagint and 88 in the Hebrew numbering. What's going on there, Father? We are going to actually talk about penal substitution, substitutionary atonement and all of that in the third half. So you are tracking with us.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

There was no need to run away. We were already with you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caller Anash]

I mean, I've read Father Steven's dissertation. I've watched, I've listened to the atonement episode, like the priesthood episodes, like, multiple times, trying to get this in my head. I'm just, you know, I was taught this from when I was like 2 till when I was like 22.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So it's kind of put into your head is a grid and then you read everything else through it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. In the immortal words of a great poet from nearby Reading, Pennsylvania, shake it off. Shake it off.

[Caller Anash]

Why?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So what's up with all. With all that, Father?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Why though?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So, I mean, what. So what. What they're doing is they're. They're proof texting, Right. They're just trying to say, ah, see, here's a verse that says Christ experienced God's wrath sort of, if you read it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In a certain kind of way.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So the, the wrath is not just defined as experiencing God's holiness unworthily. Right. God's holiness when experienced unworthily is experienced as wrath. That is a correct statement. But this is using wrath in a. In a different sense. And that sense is related to the idea. And if you want more on this, go back to our episode on blessings and curses that we have this idea in our head of blessings and curses being this sort of very external thing. Right. So you do the things God wants you to do, and so he blesses you, or you do the things God doesn't want you to do, and so he curses you. And that's not really what's going on with the way the Bible talks about being in a state of blessedness or being in a state of state of being cursed or anathema. And so essentially, to do the short version, being blessed means that you are living your life in a way that is in accord with God's justice, meaning the order within creation, that you have aligned yourself correctly with God, with your fellow human beings, with creation in such a way that is being in a blessed state. Right. Justice is when everything is in its proper place, working correctly. That includes you. Right. And working together in harmony includes you curse it. Being in a cursed state.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Means that you are at odds with. Right. You're trying to move in a different direction. You're going against the grain. Right. Kind of in the bad religion sense. You're. Right, you're. You're trying to move in a different direction. You are, therefore you are at odds with your Fellow man, you are at odds with God. You are at odds with the creation itself around you, right? And that, because of the order of creation, inevitably produces destruction and chaos, right? And that's why you're in this cursed state. And God's wrath is often used, for example, in Romans 1, it's used in this way to describe a person who is in that state, right? There are different ways. So, for example, if you were describing that person who's in that cursed state, if you're describing their relationships with other humans, right, you might say they're at war with other humans. They're at war with their brother. They hate their brother. They're jealous of their brother, they are bitter toward their. There are all these words you'd use, right, to describe the relationships between them and other people while in that state, or if you're describing their relationship to the material world around them, like the created order, right? There are various ways you could describe it. And one of the way. But one of the ways in which that person's relationship with God is described is that they are under God's wrath, right? That they are experiencing. And. And God's wrath is not this external thing where it's like God's mad at you and so he's throwing fire from heaven at you or something, right? God, when he talks about his wrath in the scriptures and the prophets, Even in Romans 1, when St. Paul is talking about it, he talks about it in terms of nature itself, right? So think about when Moses talks about this in Deuteronomy, when the people are going into the land, he says, the land itself, right? The. The wasps, the bees, right? The animals, right? They're all going to fight with you against the giant clans because of their wickedness, right? Or think about in the last few psalms, right? The wind, the rain, the lightning is going to come against you, right? Like nature itself will turn. Will turn against you in your wickedness. So when we understand that all this is to get you a question, we understand that Solomon, Persona Christi, right? Meaning that this is in some way reflective of the experience of Christ. Christ, though he did not have any of the wickedness or sin, right? That would normally bring this state about for someone. He experienced that not just in his death, but in his life on earth, right? His life on earth. He was rejected, right? He was homeless. He was traveling from place to place. He was mocked by people. He was disbelieved by people. All of this leading up to eventually his suffering, his humiliating and tortuous death, right? All of these things that happened to him. So, and this is the way St. Paul talks about Christ being right, accursed and cursed is everything that hangs on a tree. Christ experienced the results of that, the fruit of that. Right. Even though he had not. He had not sinned, he had not contributed to the evil, the corruption of the world, but he experienced its effects nonetheless.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so God's wrath there is being described compared to the waves of the sea, right towards the flood waters.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Christ experienced what that is like. Right. For the worst of sinners, even though he was without sin while he was on earth. Right. So the problem here with PSA Is not that, yes, Christ suffered obviously unjustly because he was righteous, and he suffered the fate of the unrighteous.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No one disputes that. The question is whether he did that instead of you. That's the question with penal substitution. Yeah, well, that's the question with substitution is whether he did that instead of you. And then penal substitution in particular is. Is all of that a punishment from God, an external punishment from God rather than just the consequence of the world? Because a big part of what's going on in the case of Christ is that there's this inversion happening, right? Christ suffers that state, not because the world is just and the creation is in the beautiful order in which God created it and he is wicked. It's an inversion of that. God's creation has become so corrupt and twisted and unjust and out of order that when Christ, as the righteous one, enters into it, he is completely at odds with it. Right. So it is a parallel experience, but actually an inversion of that experience. But the question, and we'll get into this a little as we continue in this half, is, is that substitutionary? Is Christ doing that so you don't have to.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Is he doing that instead of you? And then also, how does that relate to the idea of external punishment?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yep. Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That makes sense.

[Caller Anash]

Yeah. Yeah. So I just want to literally, like two second two sentence read.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Caller Anash]

Glory is not always going. No, not glory. Wrath is not always experiencing God's glory unworthily. It can also just being at odds with creation in some sense. Yes, yes. Okay, cool. So, okay, that actually explains a lot.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. And Romans. Romans 1 is a good place to go over there. St. Paul starts with, now the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all the wickedness of man. And he goes on to talk about the unnatural acts that the Gentiles have been committing, Right. In terms of sexual immorality, idolatry.

[Caller Anash]

Right. Okay, that makes sense.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yep.

[Caller Anash]

That puts A lot of things in place for me. So that's the idea of like the whole he gave them over to their unnatural desires. That's unsentious wrath, even though he's not doing it right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He gave them what they thought they wanted as a punishment.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yep, yep. Alrighty. Well, thank you very much for. For regaining your courage, David, and calling in from Girded up your loins frozen north.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right, it's the third half.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, let's talk about substitutionary atonement. I mean, we basically kind of laid out how the whole sacrificial system is not actually transactional and so therefore salvation. Yeah, salvation is not transactional either. So, yeah, let's talk about substitutionary atonement and all the various kinds of. I don't know, it's sort of the stuff that needs to be the brambles that need to be swept clear, I think, from a lot of minds of Westerns. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So, yeah. So salvation, not transactional.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And this is one of the core problems with the idea of substitutionary atonement of any kind. I said we'd come back to this. Right. Because sometimes you get these guys, they're my brothers and sisters in Christ, they're orthodox Christians who say things like, well, we don't believe in penal substitution, but we do believe in substitution. And that doesn't mean anything, really.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Doesn't mean. Yeah. And also sometimes, frankly, it's based on translations of Church fathers that are not done by orthodox Christians and are done by people who have other theology that is not compatible with orthodox theology.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, yes. If you come at me with a bunch of quotes from the Church fathers from Shaf, I'm going to point out to you that Shaf had a particular point of view. Right. But yeah, I've started asking this question a lot. When you get these people trying to proof text Church fathers, right, where they'll say like. And it's proof texting because they'll be, oh, look, see, he used the word wrath or, oh, look, he used to the word propitiation. Or, oh, look, you use the word punishment. Right. My response to that is, I guarantee you that Church father did not use any of those words because he was not writing in English.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, exactly.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. So there's. There's some other word behind there. We have to look at that word and we have to look at how that father uses that word before we could even have this discussion.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so most of the people, frankly, trying to have that discussion can't have that discussion because they're monolingual Americans. Yeah, sorry, right. Like at a certain point and this is going to make me sound like an arrogant jerk, but what else is new? And I don't care. I don't care. Okay, look, at some point you have to accept if you only know English and you can only read the church fathers in the Bible in translation, you are going to have to at some point find some people who actually know the original languages, who you trust and just believe them about what it says. Yeah, okay. You are not equipped. You don't have to go and learn those languages. But if you're not going to go and learn those languages, you're not entitled to an opinion on this. You aren't, you can't have one. You're not capable of doing the work to develop an informed opinion on it. So you have to believe someone who does have an informed opinion. You don't get to lone ranger this. If you want to go and do the work and learn the language and study, and study that church father and how he uses that word and do that. Great dissertation topic. Good. That's a great thing to do. We need more people doing that. Okay, yeah, but if you're not going to do that, shut up. Shut up on social media. Stop causing trouble. Stop trying to cause factions in the church. That's a sin. That's a grievous sin. Okay, just stop. You're not a teacher. Stop trying to be one. You have to learn before you can teach. If you don't want to learn, cool, peace be with you. But don't try and teach. Okay, minor rant, done. Address your address, your, your comments on what an arrogant jerk I am to father [e-mail] so, yeah, but no, so the, and that's not. The people I was just writing about are not the people who say we believe in substitution but not penal substitution. Let me be clear. Those are nice good hearted people. Worst thing they're guilty of is some very soft ecumenism. They're trying to, they're trying to throw the, the other people the A bone. Right? Maybe I could come with you a little ways. But you can't. Because the core of the idea of substitution. Right. Really ultimately, in terms of the New Testament, this comes down to the preposition I pair. And whether you translate that as an idea like instead of or in place of or. If you translate that as in behalf of or with benefit toward.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And when you read the New Testament, the church fathers, and they're using that in terms of Christ and His death. They don't use it to mean instead of or in place of. They use it to mean in behalf of or for the benefit of. Right. So people will say, and some of these people even proof text a quote that just says, like, Christ died for our sins.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, for.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There can mean a lot of different things.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. Died for our sins. Doesn't mean our sins made us worthy of death and he died instead of us. Necessarily. It doesn't necessarily mean that. Right. Even if you think it means that, it doesn't necessarily mean that it can equally mean he died in behalf of us. Right. He died on our behalf in order to purify us from our sins, for example.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yep. Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So those are possible meanings. Once you have possible meanings, you then find means to decide. Right. What the actual meaning is out of those possible meanings. But so let's. Let's take a look at this idea. This whole substitution idea is a transaction by definition.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's a transaction. And in the case of Christ's death. So we're talking about substitutionary atonement now. And so any kind of substitutionary atonement is a view of atonement that views atonement as being about Christ's death. That in itself is a problem. We're not going to go into that right now.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. I mean.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, we can't do everything in one episode.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No. Just as a sidebar, like, what is atonement? Go see your atonement episode.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know, called priesthood. Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So atonement involves a lot more than only Christ's death. Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But any substitution. When anybody's talking about substitutionary atonement, that's what they're talking about. Right. No one uses substitutionary atonement to say Christ lived through childhood and adolescence so that you don't have to. Right. So any kind of atonement view that's based on, like, recapitulation, like you find in St. Irenaeus or Saint Athanasius, obviously is not substitutionary. Right. Where Christ lived through all the phases of human life and thereby purified them.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Clearly that's not. Instead of you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's. But so they're. That's why we say you de facto isolate the idea of atonement to Christ's death. When you do this, as we've talked about a bunch of. On this show, this is a distinction that's found all through the Church fathers, but as with a lot of things, it is precise exposition of the Orthodox faith. St. John of Damascus lays this out Very clearly.

[Caller Anash]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That there is physical death and there is spiritual death. And this distinction is critically important for a whole bunch of things. That's why we keep bringing it up on the show. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God. We need to be very clear. And this is why we can't believe in any kind of penal substitutionary atonement. Right. Any kind of penal substitutionary atonement requires Christ to have died a spiritual death.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Which means that he was damned or that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That his human soul was separated from God.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

His human soul was separated from God, which means either, like, there's two ways, or you could go for both. Actually, there's two ways to be utterly heretical about this. You know, there's. There's. You can be an historian, you know, or actually maybe a pollinarian, I don't know. Or, you know, you can mess up your trinitarian theology. Yeah, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So you either have to have God the Son being separated from God the Father, or God. So you break the Trinity or Jesus.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The man separated from Christ. God.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. Christ. Humanity is separated from his divinity, in which case you're probably an historian or William Lane Craig, an apollinarian.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And he literally says this in his book.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Believes in penal substitutionary atonement because again, fractally wrong has to be wrong about everything.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So, so, yes, Omni heritage. So if you're going to say that, you know, Christ died so that we don't have to, if you're going to accept that it's Christ died, spiritual death, then you have basically entered into deeply heretical zone. Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That is what penal substitutionary atonement is, Right. Saying that Christ died a spiritual death so that we don't have to.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Now the other way you could say, well, he. He died a physical death so that we don't have to. But I've done way too many funerals to believe that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. Christ did die a physical death. Christ's death was a physical death. His human soul was separated from his human body, but it was not so.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That we wouldn't have to, because we're all going to die. Except for those.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because I'm still going to die a physical death.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, right, right. So clearly that didn't work, you know, if that's what was right going on.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So that is it. That is at work. People propose that sometimes, but I don't think they've thought it through about the fact that I still physically die. So then there's not a substitution there. Right? There's. There can't be a substitution. But also, by the way, I just want to hammer this home. This is why the argument sometimes advanced by Muslims and some Unitarians, how can God die? This is why that argument is stupid.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. I mean, again, you are a Nestorian.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Die.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, no, no, with them, it's because die means when we say Christ died. When we say God died on the cross, which we do say, what do we mean? We mean that his human soul was separated from his human body, right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

He had a physical death, a material death. Physical death.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So any Muslim or Unitarian who wants to explain to me how if God took a human soul and human body, he could not possibly separate the two of them can come explain that to me. Otherwise, your how can God die? Argument is stupid. It's stupid because.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, both.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I hate to tell you, but both Muslims and Unitarians believe in an afterlife, meaning neither of them think die means cease to exist. Die for them means the same thing. It means for me. Your human soul is separated from your human body. So their argument is stupid. It makes no sense. Right. It's just an incoherent dir. Right? Like, no one should take that seriously. And I mean that literally. I mean, if someone makes that argument to you, laugh at them, then explain why it's dumb. But you should laugh first. You should, because that's the only way we're gonna get them to stop saying that dumb thing is public shaming. It's a powerful tool. Anyway, St. Gregory Palmas summarizes the actual orthodox view very well. He says that Christ, by his physical death. He uses the terms physical and spiritual death, like St. John does.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Christ, by his physical death, takes away both our physical and spiritual death.

[Caller Anash]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We. How does he take away our physical death? Not by us not dying. Right. So, see, the substitution doesn't work. Christ dies physically. And because of Christ's physical death, he takes away our physical death. How? In the Resurrection, right? Our soul and our body are reunited. And how does he take away our spiritual death? Not by dying a spiritual death. He only dies a physical death. But he takes away our spiritual death in that our souls are reunited to God. Our human souls are reunited to God because our humanity is united to God in Christ's person. To show you how clueless some of these penal substitution guys are online, these crypto Protestants, I have seen them quote this from St. Gregory Palamas as if it proves penal substitution.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wow.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Those are the people I was telling earlier to shut up. They're literally posting quotes that refute their position, as if they support their position. That's how little they understand what they're talking about. Okay, am I potentially embarrassing people and being mean to them? Yes, because they need to repent and stop doing what they're doing. They are causing factions within the church. It's online, so it's only semi real, but it's still factions. They're confusing people.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And it needs to stop.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. I mean, you know, if. If the fact that pretty much any clergyman who responds to some. To you about these kinds of things says, no, we do not believe in penal substitutionary atonement, that is wrong. That is false. If you know better than everyone else, all the leadership of the church that actually bothers to respond to you about this, then maybe you're the one that's wrong, you know, like, because Orthodoxy has actual authority and if you're the one restoring the gospel, you kind of sound more like Joseph Smith than you do like one of the church fathers, you know, if you got to restore the gospel. Anyway, where were we?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

What about repentance, Father Stephen? What's that all about?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Why do we have to do that? If Jesus paid it all, if this is substitutionary. Right. Why is there. Why is there repentance in the Torah? If the sacrificial system. Right, we already talked about that a little bit. If that was substitutionary. Right, but there's stuff about repenting all through the New Testament. Let's just talk about the New Testament. Repent.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. That is literally how the Gospel is summarized when it's first being preached. Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What must I do to be saved? They say it acts.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Repent.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The apostles say repent and be baptized.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Repent and believe in the Lord Jesus. Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Which means. And what is repentance? It's been defined by the, you know, thousands of years of Israelite tradition up to that point. It doesn't just mean, stop sinning and don't do it anymore. That's not all that repentance is. Yes, stop, don't do it anymore. But there are actually specific actions of repentance that have to be taken.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, but so just like it doesn't make any sense to say, right, we talked about this in terms of like stealing the ox. Right. Well, if you believe that the sacrificial system is substitutionary, then, well, the thing you killed took the penalty for that sin, which was apparently death, but is now apparently also making restitution. But. Right, we Talked about how that makes no sense. But that same dynamic happens right within. Sorry, guys. Evangelicalism especially.

[Caller Anash]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But in some other forms of Protestantism too, that accept penal substitution, it obviates repentance, meaning like Christ paid the penalty for that sin. They'll frequently say, all my sins, past, present, future ones I haven't even done yet. He's already paid the price for them. So what does it mean for me to repent?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, and like that's what you just said is not. I mean, for some it is probably something of a caricature. But I can tell you that within the kind of evangelicalism I was raised with, and it was not some weird little sect I was part of, kind of mainstream Baptist ish evangelicalism, it was.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I don't know why they all had AK47s at the church services, but exactly those, other than that, pretty amazing.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It was absolutely taught you should live a good life. But if you had this moment of sincere repentance, and we'll talk about some of this in a second here, if you had this moment where you turned around, you, you said, I'm lost in my sins. Jesus is Lord of my life, I place all my hope in you. If you get saved, then nothing you do after that can change your eternal destiny. It was described this way to me. It was preached by many preachers in that world that you could go live a life of sin after that and you would still go to heaven when you die. Now some, some of the, the better ones would also say, but if you do go live in that life of sin, then that proves you never really meant it. Yeah, you know, but, but there was this idea of like, it doesn't matter what you do after that, there's nothing you can do to change it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know, and that was supposed to be, that was supposed to assure you, like, oh, phew. And, and you know, I understand what that's reacting to. It's reacting to this caricature, although not completely a caricature, but mostly a caricature of what they think Roman Catholicism is about. Where you're living in this constant anxiety. Like, am I in the state of grace? Am I out of state of grace? Am I in a state of grace? Am I out of state of grace? I don't want to get hit by a bus on my way to confession and die. You know, like that sort of sense of, I don't know, at any moment, you know, and so like this was supposed to make you have assurance or, you know, to put it really in what it really means, it's to make you feel better so that you don't feel anxious about all this kind of stuff. Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But even beyond. Right. So you are focusing there mainly on the positive element of living a good life and doing good things. Right. But even just focusing for a sentence on repentance as such. What does it mean if you believe that Christ paid the penalty for it? What does it mean to repent? Yeah, I mean, it kind of means, well, I feel bad about it. I'm going to try not to do that again.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Or, or, or.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But if I do do that again, that's already forgiven too.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, it's, it just means if, frankly, for a lot of them, it means just believe, like agree really hard deep down in your heart.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. But that's not repenting, that's believing. That's a different thing.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Those are different verbs.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. I mean. Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So all those calls to repent end up being kind of weirdly meaningless. Right. In the New Testament. Because here's the thing. As soon as. And I have this experience, because I'm not a Protestant and I talk to Protestants, as soon as I start talking, Protestants will protest. You'll see. See the YouTube comments below this video over the next few days.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. Or even in the chat right now.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right now, this is a straw man. This is a caricature, right? They're. They're going to be saying all this. We believe in repentance. We believe you have to show contrition and be sorry for your sins. We believe you have to turn from sin. We don't. We believe repentance means something. Right? Okay. As soon as you say that to me in real time, I'm not getting into it in the comments with you, sorry. Say that in real time. I'm going to say to you, okay, so if someone sins, someone sins. They believe they've. They have come to faith in Christ, but they commit a sin and they don't repent of it for whatever reason, does that mean they're not forgiven? And they're going to tell me no. They're going to tell me no. So you can sit and talk all you want, guys, about how you believe repentance is necessary. Right? And however you want to describe it, is feeling bad, trying not to do it again, however you want to describe it as it's necessary. But when I push the word necessary to meaning you won't be forgiven, meaning you're not saved anymore because you sinned and didn't repent, you're going to tell Me? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Okay. So this is not a straw man or a caricature. This is what your view boils down to. This is where your view goes. If you push on it. And I know because I've pushed on it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

With plenty of Protestants. And that's where it always goes. It always goes to, well, no, it isn't really necessary.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. And the reason.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But when I come out and say it's not necessary for you, you put straw man. Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, and the reason why is because they'll often say stuff like, well, if that's necessary, if it's required, then that means you think you can add something to your salvation. Like what you just did was not the work.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. And in fact, that's the reality. If you're consistent and follow this through the way like Calvinists do, because they're kind of ruthless about consistency. If you follow this through like Calvinists do, they'll tell you you trying to repent of your sins is not only a sin. Right. Why would that be a sin? Because you're not trusting in Christ.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

To pay the penalty for your sins. You're trying to do it yourself. So if you make acts of repentance, not only are those sins, but the consistent Calvinist will tell you that's an unforgivable sin.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Proof you were never forgiven.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's a sin that can't be forgiven. Why can't it be forgiven? Because you're not trusting in Christ to have paid the price for it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, it's one of these elements. It's an element of traditional Calvinism, what they would call perseverance of the saints, which, in the kind of semi Calvinist background that I had, is described with the phrase once saved, always saved, where basically your free will is operative up until the point when you, quote, get saved. And then after that, your free will can't do anything about that. You know?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. And when I say when I talk about not repenting here. Okay. To head this off too. I'm not talking about quote unquote, life of unrepentant sin. I'm not saying you claim you are a Christian at some point, but, you know, everybody sees you three days a week riding in a parade, flute down the street, fornicating and offering incense to Zeus. That's not what I'm talking about. Mardi Gras coming up here. Stuff happens anyway.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

A parade flute.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I'm just working that out of my head. Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So. Right, right. That's not. I'm Talking about just you don't repent. I'm talking about like you're a Christian. Right. And you know what? You have this bad habit of telling lies to get out of trouble. And when confronted about it, you kind of feel bad about it, but you keep doing it and you never really repent. That's what I'm talking about.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

None of you Protestants are going to tell me that you not repenting of that is going to send you to hell. I'm not saying it will. Right. But that, that, that repents of that is necessary for salvation. Right. That's the kind of non repentance I'm talking about. Right. Just. Just own it. You don't believe repentance is required for salvation. Right. The problem is the New Testament really makes it sound like it is. In fact, the New Testament really makes it sound like that's the main thing about it, about salvation is repentance, not just once, but ongoing. As Martin Luther said in the first of the 95 theses, when our Lord said repent, he meant our whole life should be one of repentance.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That. That's what the New Testament seems to say. And so if your view comes to, well, repentance isn't really necessary.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And especially if it comes to actually you trying to do acts of repentance and reconciliation is a sin. Now we've really turned things on our head.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There is a point at which evangelical theology says that the one unforgivable sin is trying to do good and please God.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's kind of weird, guys.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And if you don't believe it ever gets to that. A couple months ago, the President of the United States said he was trying to end wars because that was his best shot at getting into heaven. And a whole bunch of prominent evangelicals took to the Internet to say this proves he's not a Christian. This is what proves he's not a Christian. That he thinks you could do good things to please God and get into heaven. Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That was amazing.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That out of all of the behavior he's had in his life, that's the one that will send you to hell. Right. That should tell you you've arrived at an absurd point and you need to question. We're kind of through the looking glass here. What the Bible sort of. I mean, you guys are all about the plain meaning of scripture. That's kind of the opposite of the plain meaning of scripture, man. You gotta admit. Right. Maybe something has gone wrong here.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. And. And if you want, let's look at a particular, very famous biblical text. And see if this text makes any sense with this idea of penal substitution, this transactional idea of forgiveness. And that is 1 John 1 verse.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

9, which, I mean, all of us who grew up kind of Baptist, we all memorize this verse a lot. 1 John 1:9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So I have to say the way that I was raised to interpret this verse is that this verse is about becoming a Christian, going from unbeliever to believer. That that's what it's about. But weirdly enough, it actually says we there at the beginning. And who is the actor is he talking to?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So you have to imagine that St. John is an unbeliever. Right. You have to not read the first eight verses of the Epistle, which he is writing to a church of Christians. Who are his disciples? Who are his children in the Lord and the we is he and them. Yeah, the Christians. That's who he's talking to.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So if this sentence is directed toward Christians and you believe penal substitutionary atonement is true, what can it possibly mean? Because it is a conditional statement. If, then.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

If we confess our sins, then then.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. And it's interesting to note that the language there is cleanse, which. That's atonement language. That's purification language.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's the language he uses throughout 1 John. He talks about us being cleansed and purified by the blood of Christ.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's not about. And he's not using language of paying.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Off, paying off, or satisfying, warding off God's wrath. None of that. It's about us being cleansed by the blood of Christ, being purified and cleansed from sin. But this is an if then statement.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So if Christ took the penalty for all of them, past, present, and future, what could it possibly mean? That if you confess them, you will be forgiven them.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. So, I mean, this is like there's someone actually in the chat right now asking, what does it mean to repent? This is one example of that. So confessing your sins is part of what repentance is? You know, to repent. To repent, quite simply, is to live the way that God made us. To live, to be faithful rather than to be unfaithful. Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And to take actions that remediate the sin that you committed.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. It's not like I changed my mind or I think differently than I used to. Yeah, you should think differently than you used to. But like, if you don't do anything, I mean, that's the kind of thing that's, you know, St. James calls faith without works, which is dead.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. And we all know this. Okay? Real world. Real world. This is the example I use. I always use the example of adultery. A man goes and commits adultery. Right. Cheats on his wife.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Do you think if he comes home and says, let's say he's an ancient Israelite, oh, honey, I cheated on you, but don't worry, I went and I offered a goat as a sacrifice, so we're all good. You think that's going to work?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Or modern day, he comes home, he says, well, you know, honey, I slept with another woman, but I really prayed on it. And Christ died for that sin too. And we're good. I'm forgiven.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Does that work? See, really forgiven. See, really purified and cleansed from sin.

[Caller Anash]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And by the way, I'll be fair. Let's say he's Orthodox and he says, well, honey, I went to church and I confess that sin to the priest and I've been forgiven, so we're good. That doesn't work that way either. Right. And the Orthodox church doesn't teach that that works that way. Right. That person's repentance. Right. Is the majority of it is him confessing that to his wife, what he has done, and then doing the hard work over the course of years to try to rebuild that relationship and get her trust back.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And him being very accepting of the consequences, being accepting of her distrust, being accepting of her pain and anger and not pushing back or defending himself against it. Right. All of that is his repentance. And then at the end of that, at the end of that journey, when he's reconciled with his wife, that is when he has really achieved and experienced forgiveness. If you want a Bible example.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

People like Bible examples. Zacchaeus, Christ goes to eat with Zacchaeus. He could have walked in his door and said, today salvation has come to this house because Christ is salvation.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But that's not when he says it. He comes and he eats with Zacchaeus. And Zacchaeus, who is a tax collector, stands up and says, half of what I have, I am going to give away to the poor and everything I have stolen, I'm going to pay back five times.

[Caller Anash]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That second part being what's required of him from the Torah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He says he's going to do that. And then when he says he is going to do that, that's when Christ says to say, salvation has come to this house because he too, is a child of Abraham. That's when Christ says it. Because that is Zacchaeus repenting. The repentance is those actions to make right what he has done wrong insofar as it's in his power to do it right. And different things require different things to fix. That's why there's different penalties for different sins in the Torah. There's different prescriptions to deal with different sins. That's why when you confess different sins to a priest, you receive different instructions and different guidance in dealing with them. Right. Because the goal is repentance. Goal is justice. The goal is repairing.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The situation, healing the situation. That's what forgiveness is. And repentance leads to forgiveness.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. You can't just say, oh, well, we're. Technically, it's been taken care of.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah. So I'm going to, you know, I'm gonna go old school here, Father Andrew.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because I know it's almost bedtime for you. I know I'm gonna go old school. I'm gonna do something we haven't done for a long time on this show. I'm gonna call it audible. Uh. Oh, And a whole section of our material is going to go into another episode.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, we haven't done this in a long time.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. See, old school.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, you know, the reason we haven't done it in a long time is because you've gotten better about your scripting.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Maybe, or you've got better about keeping me on task in general. That could be it as well.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You never know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. So we have somewhere. But I think this is a good play. I think we've got a through line for this episode.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Absolutely.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There's some other related things we're going to talk about, but we could build another episode around that. So you're not losing out on anything.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, you're not. You're not.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You're just gonna have to be patient with this. This material.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think. Okay, so for. I think the place that I'm landing at the end of this episode is number one. I think that a lot of the errors of trying to understand what's going on in the sacrificial system in the Old Testament and then how it's interpreted and applied and expanded on and transformed in the New Testament in many cases comes, frankly from a lack of liturgical context. A lot of the people doing this interpretation do not have liturgical. Well, I mean, everyone has a liturgical thing that they're doing, but it's been so kind of deracinated, you know, all of the liturgical tradition of Christianity, most of it maybe has been set aside, especially by evangelicals. Although it's interesting. It's interesting. Some are now kind of trying to recapture some of that. You know, that's something that we talk a lot about on the Areopagus podcast, is this sort of appropriation, this attempted appropriation of liturgical elements, but. Or other elements from Christian history. But I think that when you don't have a liturgical Christianity, then frankly, you have a lot of blind spots in terms of reading the liturgics that is in the Scriptures. Right. And so like. Like the. To me, the. The locus classicus for that is, you know, putting sins on an animal that is being sacrificed to God. And as you have pointed out, that is nowhere in the Scriptures. That is simply never there. You have to read into it in one way or another. Like, the only time that sins are ever put on an animal explicitly is the goat for Azazel in the Day of Atonement ritual. And that goat is not sacrificed. It is sent off into the wilderness. You can't say it's being sacrificed, because if it is being sacrificed, then that means God is literally telling the children of Israel to make a sacrifice to a demon that lives in the wilderness. And that is not what he's telling them to do. So I think that there's a blind spot there, and that's why the kind of liturgical details like that are not as clear, because the matrix within which to interpret and understand liturgics is simply not present to bring this home, especially to the kind of Christianity I was raised in. And to make reference again to that video that I just went and looked. It has like 35 million views on YouTube or something like this. And it's why, though. I know, right? Right. It's titled why I Hate Religion But Love Jesus. This is based on, number one, it's a complete misunderstanding of the word religion. Ridiculous misunderstanding the word religion. But it's based on this idea that, you know, a lot of Christians will say, I don't have a religion, I have a relationship. I don't have a religion, I have a relationship. You know, and so obviously, relationship is a good thing and religion is a bad thing, and religion is, you know, this ritualistic, dead religion, you know, or whatever, whatever. And relationship is something else. However you want to define how that works. But here's the thing is And I understand why that's being said. I understand and I affirm the sincerity behind it. Like, I know, I know the people who say that, why they say it. But the irony is when you have this transactional model of what sacrifices and salvation are about, then isn't that what you're calling religion, like you're making a deal with God. Whereas relationship is much more fulsome, has a lot more going on to it within a relationship. You can't just say, well, look, I paid you off, dear, now you need to forgive me. Now a relationship means that there has to be change of life, repentance, right? Relationship, you know, the shared meal is an intimacy based on everything being in the right order. And of course, you know, like within a marriage, marital intimacy is based on everything being in the right order. You can't just say, look, I did, I did this X, Y and Z for you. And so therefore our relationship is fine. Which is literally what people who believe in a transactional model of salvation, that is literally what they believe. Now whatever the X, Y and Z that has to be done for everything to be fine might vary from one tradition to another. Whatever it is you have to do to satisfy God varies from one tradition to another. But it is still a transactional approach. That is religion, quote unquote, not relationship. So I mean, that's the irony is this whole I have a relationship, not a religion thing by its own terms, it's doing the opposite thing. But and here's where I want to end people who do that, most of them, even if in their, the theology that they speak and like, you know, you press them on it. Father Stephen, as you've mentioned, even if the theology that they speak is still this kind of transactional model and like, no, you can't do anything to contribute to your salvation, that would actually be kind of a sin if you try to do these works of repentance in, you know, bring about forgiveness, whatever. Even the people who might say that, they still know that they need to live in repentance, they still do that. Only the most kind of antinomian weirdos don't, right? They're still, they still have a sense you need to live your life, right? And there's something wrong with you if you don't. And they still feel the existential brokenness and wounding if they don't. And they still try to put it back together if it gets broken. In other words, they understand that repentance is necessary and they're still doing it even if their theology in some Cases may say, you don't need to do that. Why do you, Once saved, always saved, what's wrong with you? And so there's this kind of multiple personality disorder going on now. I believe that all faithfulness to God, even if it's done within a theological framework that is messed up, is faithfulness to God. And God will judge to whatever extent you know he's going to save someone within that. That's for him to judge. I'm not saying that that validates the theology. It doesn't. But the truth is that there is an integrated way, and that is what historic Christianity, orthodox Christianity is. You know, this. This sense of, well, I know I'm saved and I don't have to do anything more. And the weird tension that exists between that and I need to get my life right, there doesn't need to be a tension. And it doesn't mean, contrary to the caricature that some have so that they can have what they call assurance. It doesn't mean you live in this constant anxiety. Am I in a state of grace? Out of state of grace? My experience as an orthodox Christian for almost 30 years does not include that idea. Because the way of damnation is not, whoops, I sinned. Or, you know, like, truly accidentally, or even like, I had a fall. No, no, no, no. The way of damnation is the sinner with a high hand. The sinner who says, you know what? I know I'm sinning and I'm gonna keep sinning. Not just, oh, man, I keep sinning. God help me not to sin again today. That's repentance. Even if you fall every single day, you get up every single day, that's repentance. It's the sinner who says, I don't care. This is the way that I'm going to live. I'm not going to change. I'm not even going to try to change. That's the sinner with the high hand. That's the sinner who's in really deep trouble. Not the person who keeps sinning. It's the person who decides not to repent. And so if you're living a life where you've decided to repent and you're doing it even if you keep sinning, then you are being faithful. You are fulfilling the commandments of God. And that is a place of assurance. And it's a much better place of assurance than, well, I know everything's fine. I don't have to bother now, because you know what that's predicated upon? It's predicated usually upon the idea of that, you know, that you were sincere at some particular moment and you don't really know if you were really, really sincere. Did I really mean it? I knew a lot of people that went and got baptized multiple times or kept quote, unquote, rededicating their lives to Christ because they couldn't be sure that they were really sincere at that moment. Now, maybe I'll do it this time, but it's actually much easier to answer the question, am I continuing to repent? It's not a psychological game. It's did I get up and start again? Okay, I did. My father confessor told me I did. I'm doing it. That's assurance. That's assurance. That's peace. That's real peace. And that's a piece that actually connects with the 3D life of the Christian on the ground. So those are my big takeaways from this conversation today.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So I'm going to take that baton and I'm going to push it way farther. So there are people, this isn't just folks in the evangelical world. There are folks in the Orthodox Church who are, shall we say, overly assured of their salvation. Don't take the idea that they need to live a Christian life seriously. Right. That's the thing that happens. Unlike evangelicalism and ideas like what's saved, always saved, they don't actually have the theology to back that up, which kind of makes it even weirder. But guess what? Those folks aren't going to listen to this three hour plus podcast. So those are, those are the kind of folks we're mostly talking to. And what's really inspiring this for me is not so much what Father Andrew said, though. I'm taking off from that. But some questions I've been getting lately when I do Q&As online and stuff, and I feel free to pick on and make fun of people, but these are people I'm not picking on or making fun of. These. These are people who, you know, what I have left of a heart goes out to, you know, like, I got, I got a question from somebody. How much detail do I have to give in my confession of a sin in order to be forgiven? And, and I've had people, you know, constantly, when you're a priest and you hear confessions, is this a sin? I'm not sure if this is a sin. Is this something I need to confess?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And in terms of what Father Andrew was just talking about, there's a lot of, especially on the Internet, when you see evangelicals And Orthodox Christians getting into it, right? There's all of this pushback against. Because so often what the evangelical tries to use as a trump card against the orthodox Christian is assurance of salvation, claiming they have it and we don't, right? And the kind of smug way that's put online, right, which isn't the reality, I understand, of actual evangelical Christians, but that smug way it's put online then gets this pushback from Orthodox circles of like, no, you can't be assured of your salvation, right? And I worry about how the folks who are asking me those kind of questions hear that, hear Orthodox people in public spaces again and again saying, you can't be assured of your salvation, right? Over and over again. And so this, this isn't even like the idea of scrupulosity like that you find in. In Roman Catholicism where people are overly concerned with their own sins because it's not from a neurotic level. It's from like a pained level. It's from a level of fear that in the end, when they stand before the judgment seat of Christ, right, that they're. They're going to be condemned. And no person should have that. No person should have that. That kind of fear that leads to despair about the Christian life. No one should be super worried about that. I see a lot of it. I've had to. Here's another example on a practical level, I've had to put a moratorium on confessions right after Pascha. I've had people who I received into the church, like, baptized for the remission of their sins on Holy Saturday, want to come Wednesday of Bright Week to confession, right? Like, we can't take a while to celebrate Christ's victory over sin and death and Hades and the fact that our sins have been blotted out by his blood. We can't even celebrate that a week or two before we're back to being concerned that we're going to go to hell for the horrible thing we've done, right? That that's not normal. That's not really repentance, right? Real repentance and assurance. All this is found in knowing God, right? Christ said, that's life. Life is to know God and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent. That's what Christ says. That's life. God wants you, whoever you are listening to this. God wants you to have eternal life. That's what God wants. It's what he desires. And that's not what he wants and desires in a passive way. Hey, I can prove that Christ lived, suffered, died a horrific death. So that you could have eternal life. Okay, he didn't do that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You could arrive on the Day of Judgment. And, oh, you got close. He didn't do that so he could nitpick your life on that day and find some reason to exclude you. Quite the opposite. Because it's not just what Christ did. It's what the Holy Spirit has been doing in your life, your whole life. You as a person, your whole life, from conception, what God, the Holy Spirit has been doing in your life continuously to try to bring you to salvation. That's why. That's how I know. Because all of that is real. That's what God's goal is. God's goal on the Day of Judgment. There could be lots of different types of people, but one type of person there will not be, not a single one, is a person who loved God with all his heart, did everything he could to follow Jesus Christ as best he understood, and is condemned. That person will not exist on the Day of Judgment. And that means it can't be you. So the assurance comes in knowing that God loves you. Everyone, even Esau. Sorry, Calvinists.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He loves you. He wants you to have eternal life. He has literally moved heaven and earth. For that to happen, all you have to do is not say no and yes. I know over the course of your life, you've said no a whole bunch of times. Me too. In little ways and big ways. You've said no to what he wanted to do to your salvation. But here's the thing. You're still alive and listening to me now, so you have another chance to say yes. Your no is not final. None of them are. And he doesn't want them to be. God is not trying to sift people out to send them to hell. He's trying to bring people to salvation. So don't worry about the transactions. When you come to confessions, make your best confession. Do the best you can on that day. It's never going to be perfect. Not once are you going to have a perfect confession. Not once are you going to have a perfect act of contrition. Not once are you going to remember all your sins. Not once are you going to really be fully 100% honest with your spiritual father. I know. I'm not either. Okay. God isn't looking at that as a reason to exclude you. He's looking at that as a step in the right direction. Let's take the next one and the next one and the next one and the next one. Because the road is all leading in one direction. So that's what I have to say tonight.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Amen. Well, that's our show for tonight. Thank you for tuning in everyone. If you didn't happen to get through to us live, you can still get in touch. You can email us at Lord of Spirits at Ancient. You can message us at our Facebook page or you can leave us a [e-mail] LordOfSpirits and if you have basic questions about Orthodox Christianity or you need help finding a parish in the 3D world, go to orthodoxintro.org Join us for.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Our live broadcast on the 2nd and 4th Thursdays of the month at 6pm Eastern, 3pm Pacific. You see, my problem is this. I'm dreaming away wishing that heroes, they truly exist.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And if you are on Facebook you can follow our page, you can join our big old discussion group, leave ratings and reviews and share this show with a friend of yours.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And finally, be sure to go to ancientfaith.com support and help make sure we and lots of other AFR podcasters stay on the air. I cry watching the days can't you see I'm a fool in so many ways.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Thank you, good night and may God bless you all.

[Narrator]

You've been listening to the Lord of Spirits with Orthodox Christian priests, Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung, a listener supported presentation of Ancient Faith Radio. And I beheld and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders, and the number of them was 10,000 times 10,000 and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and Blessing. Revelation, chapter 5, verses 11 through 12.