The Lord of Spirits

Episode 132: Stole Something? Kill a Goat!

Date: January 27, 2026

Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Podcast Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition

OVERVIEW

This episode focuses on peeling back misconceptions about the Old Testament sacrificial system—specifically sin offerings—and their relationship to the work of Christ and repentance within Orthodox Christianity. The priests aim to challenge “transactional” and “substitutionary” ideas often read into the Biblical text, particularly those absorbed from evangelical and Protestant traditions. They guide listeners through a close reading of Leviticus 4 and related passages, unraveling common misunderstandings about sacrifice, repentance, sin, and forgiveness, connecting these ideas from Torah through the Prophets to the New Testament.

Through engaging dialogue, Bible readings, and listener questions, the hosts emphasize that true repentance, personal action to set things right, and authentic relationship with God—not mere ritual or substitution—are central to both ancient Israelite practice and Christian doctrine.

MAIN DISCUSSION TOPICS

1. Setting the Stage ([00:00]–[10:00])

• Opening and Banter: The priests joke about audio quality and podcast history, before turning to the night’s theme.
• Topic Announcement: “We’re going to be wading into the relationship between the sacrificial system of the Torah and the work of Christ in the Gospels—especially sin offerings, what they did, and how they work.”
  — Fr. Andrew [05:03]

2. Reading Leviticus 4: Sin Offerings ([10:10]–[15:22])

• Long passage read aloud: Sin offerings for different groups—priests, congregation, leaders, common people—are explained with detailed ritual steps for sacrificing bulls, goats, and lambs. All involve laying hands on the animal, slaughter, and specific blood/fat rituals.
• Key Point: No mention in Leviticus 4 of placing sins “onto” sacrificed animals.

“That was a pregnant pause there, Fr. Stephen. You were going to sleep well.”
— Fr. Andrew, after the lengthy reading [15:25]

3. Misconceptions About the Sacrificial System ([15:36]–[43:00])

i. Misconception #1: Sins Imputed to the Sacrifice

• Evangelicals (and some Orthodox/Catholics influenced by their environment) often assume sin is transferred to the animal by laying hands on it.
• Refutation: Laying on of hands does not mean “imputing sin”—as shown by other passages (e.g., Numbers 8:5–13) where the Levites themselves are “sacrificed” symbolically by laying on hands, but no sins are mentioned.
• The only explicit “sin transfer” is to the goat for Azazel (“scapegoat”) on the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16)—and that animal is not sacrificed.
• “[T]here’s not a place in the Old Testament where sins are placed on an animal and then it is sacrificed.”
  — Fr. Stephen [17:12]

ii. Misconception #2: Substitutionary Death

• The idea that the animal “dies in your place” as a substitutionary punishment is examined.
• Refutation: Many sins (e.g., theft) are not punishable by death in Torah; instead, they require restitution. Thus, animal sacrifice cannot be a substitute for a death penalty that was never required.
• Killing the animal is not ritualized or the essence of “sacrifice”; what the priest does after the death is key.

“We need to get away from this idea that sacrifice...means killing a thing...within the context of the scriptures, sacrifice does not mean killing a thing.”
— Fr. Andrew [35:17]

iii. Misconception #3: Sacrifice Only for “Unintentional” Sins

• Some claim sin offerings address only “accidental” or “involuntary” sins.
• Refutation: Many sins addressed are clearly deliberate. Torah and 1 John both acknowledge genuine “culpability.” The sacrificial system always presupposed repentance, not mere error correction.

“...there is a concept of culpability in the Bible...There’s a difference between an error and a sin.”
— Fr. Stephen [44:44]

4. The Meaning of “Unintentional” vs. “High-Handed” Sins ([76:01]–[81:35])

• Numbers 15:27–30 contrasts unintentional sin (for which atonement is available) with “high-handed” sin—open, defiant, unrepentant wrongdoing (for which there is “no sacrifice”).
• “The imagery...is that they’re taking an oath...they’re owning what they’re doing.”
  — Fr. Stephen [78:18]
• Willful (“high-handed”) sinners cannot expect atonement through ritual or sacrifice; repentance is foundational.

5. Prophets & The Primacy of Repentance Over Ritual ([90:59]–[100:00])

• Readings from Isaiah 1, Amos 5, Jeremiah 7, Malachi 1 reinforce God’s rejection of sacrifices from the unrepentant and negligent—the rituals are not “mechanical” and have no effect without real repentance.

“Bring no more vain offerings...even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.”
— Isaiah 1 [91:43]

• The intention is a “meal of reconciliation;” ritual alone has no magic power—personal effort to repair the breach (repentance) must come first.

6. New Testament: Hebrews and 1 John on Sin and Repentance ([70:00]–[76:00], [73:41], [75:01])

• Hebrews 10:26: “If we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins...”
• 1 John 3:4–6: (Literal reading) “Everyone who sins also practices lawlessness... No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him.”
• Greek does not say “keep on sinning” (as softened in most translations), but “sins”—emphasizing willfulness (high-handedness) as the problem.
• The division is not between “accidentally” and “on purpose,” but between the penitent and the defiant sinner.

7. Q&A Highlights

Listener Q: Did Christ End Ritual? ([53:55]–[60:20])

• Evangelical claim: Christ ended all ritual (“why I love Jesus but hate religion”).
• Refutation: Worship is ongoing; forms and specifics change but sacrificial, liturgical worship continues in new, deeper ways (e.g., Eucharist). To discard “Old Testament” worship is to miss the continuity of God’s revelation.

Listener Q: Genesis 3:16 and Women’s “Punishment” ([63:11]–[69:47])

• The struggle of “toil in childbirth” and man’s struggle with the ground both reflect the same post-Fall condition: the world and its original gifts remain, but are now experienced through struggle, pain, and spiritual hardship.

Listener Q: Incense and Sacrifice ([107:02]–[115:33])

• Incense is a sacrifice, but of a different category—parallel to the “sweet savor” offerings, offered to God, with the byproduct (smoke) as purificatory. Not a sin offering itself, but an “ascending” scented offering, with deep connections to Old and New Testament worship.

Listener Q: Psalm 87/88 and God’s Wrath on Christ ([116:16]–[127:16])

• “Wrath” in Scripture: Not always God’s emotional anger, but denotes the suffering and alienation from God that results from disorder and sin. Christ endured the cursed condition and its consequences—not as penal substitution (not “God punishing Christ instead of us”) but by experiencing the full effects of a broken world, though he was without sin.

8. The Transactional vs. Relational Religion ([128:08]–End)

Substitutionary Atonement & Repentance

• No “Transaction” or “Deal” with God: The “substitutionary” idea (Christ did X so we don’t have to) is a transactional caricature foreign to the Bible and Orthodoxy. True repentance always remains necessary.

“Any kind of penal substitutionary atonement requires Christ to have died a spiritual death...[But] Christ by his physical death, takes away both our physical and spiritual death.”
— Fr. Stephen [135:28]

• Debate on “Assurance”: Protestant claims to “assurance of salvation” are often founded on the “transactional” idea—do “the thing,” be “saved,” regardless of actual relationship or repentance. In Orthodoxy, assurance comes from the continued work of repentance and union with Christ, not from a one-time “deal.”
• Illustration: “If you cheat on your wife, then come home and say it’s OK because you offered a goat, she’s not going to be satisfied. True reconciliation requires real action and repair, not a mere ritual or transaction.”

— Paraphrased [157:00]

• Zacchaeus as Model: Real repentance included not just sorrow but restitution.

Orthodox Position Summed:

• The entire thrust of Old and New Testaments is about right relationship, repentance, and ongoing faithfulness—not one-off acts or substitutes. Mechanistic “justification by payment” formulas distort the Biblical vision.

Memorable Quotes:

“If you say repentance isn’t necessary, you’ve arrived at an absurd point and you need to question...”
— Fr. Stephen [153:15]

“If you’re living a life where you’ve decided to repent and you’re doing it even if you keep sinning, then you are being faithful...and that is a place of assurance.”
— Fr. Andrew [162:04]

NOTABLE MOMENTS & TIMESTAMPS

• The “Scapegoat” Problem: [17:17–20:05]
• Numbers 8/Levites and Sacrifice: [22:59–26:24]
• Exodus 22 Restitution Law: [30:48–33:38]
• Sacrifice ≠ Killing: [34:40–36:20]
• Hebrews 10 & Deliberate Sin: [70:00–73:41]
• Psalm 51 and Sacrifice: [81:52–86:25]
• Zacchaeus’ Repentance Modeled: [159:34–160:07]
• “Religion” vs. “Relationship” Irony: [162:01–172:01]
• Pastoral Assurance (“No One Who Loves God...Will Be Lost”): [173:39–180:13]

FINAL TAKEAWAYS

• Ritual, sacrifice, and worship are not “deals” with God but acts of communion, humility, and restoration—always requiring personal repentance and reconciliation.
• The Orthodox view harmonizes Old and New Testament teachings, rejecting transactional, forensic, or strictly substitutionary models of atonement in favor of healing, relationship, and transformation in Christ.
• Assurance of salvation is found not in a contract, but in sincere, ongoing repentance, participation in Christ’s life, and trust in God’s love and mercy.

“God is not trying to sift people out to send them to hell. He's trying to bring people to salvation. ...All you have to do is not say no.”
— Fr. Stephen [178:32–180:13]

[End of Summary]