The Lord of Spirits Podcast – Episode: The Devil(s)

Date: June 28, 2024
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick (B), Fr. Stephen De Young (C)
Theme: Exploring "the Devil" and Devil-like figures in Scripture and Second Temple Jewish literature, clarifying misconceptions, and understanding their relevance to Orthodox Christian spiritual life.

Episode Overview

This episode investigates the multiplicity of devil-like figures mentioned in Scripture and Second Temple Jewish sources—Satan, the Devil, Azazel, Mastema, Belial, and others. The hosts discuss these figures' origins, names, traits, and functions, dispel common misconceptions (such as the "Miltonian" understanding of Satan’s fall), and show how these traditions inform Orthodox Christian beliefs about evil and spiritual warfare. The episode concludes with a call for spiritual discernment over esoteric speculation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Talk About Multiple “Devils”? (00:00–12:40)

• There is not a single, universally-agreed list of devil figures in ancient Jewish/Christian texts; various sources offer different names and images.
• The church wrestles with patterns and traditions, not a taxonomy of evil beings.

"If you look at it as an attempt to make a kind of science of demonology, then you're going to miss what this is all about." — Fr. Andrew (13:10)

2. Succession Myth versus Biblical Narrative (19:26–29:50)

• Ancient pagan religions promoted the idea that the ruling god overthrows a predecessor (succession myth). The Hebrew Scriptures’ story is a counter to this—God is not usurped, and rebellion against Him fails.
• Biblical references, like Isaiah proclaiming “before me no other god,” are statements of God’s eternal, unassailable sovereignty.

“The Hebrew Scriptures counter this story. They're fundamentally undermining the basis of the religious life of Israel’s neighbors.” — Fr. Stephen (29:12)

3. The Devil in the Garden — Interpreting Genesis 3 (30:06–45:19)

• The “serpent” in Eden (Nakash) is not a literal snake, but a multiplex spiritual description: serpent/shining one/crafty—an angelic being, possibly a Seraph.
• The curse means eating "dust"—symbolically, death, not literal dirt; he is cast into the underworld, made the lord of the dead.
• The devil’s "fall" as described by the Fathers: post-creation, out of envy for humanity’s destiny and honor.

"All the Fathers say...after the creation of the world, the devil fell through envy." — Fr. Stephen, citing St. Andrew of Caesarea (39:13)

4. Rebellion & Envy — Differentiating Orthodox from Miltonic Views (40:53–45:19)

• The “Milton” (Paradise Lost) idea of the devil attempting to replace God is foreign to early Christian and Jewish thought.
• The devil's rebellion is not an attempt to overthrow God, but sabotage of God’s dearly loved creation (humanity).

“The devil can’t do anything to God...but he can go after God’s creation...the creation he’s most envious of.” — Fr. Stephen (44:30)

5. Satan as Adversary/Accuser — Multiple Traditions (55:01–72:30)

• “Satan” is originally a role (“the adversary”), not a name: in Job, he’s “the Satan,” an accuser permitted by God.
• Second Temple literature develops figures like Samael ("poison of God") and Satanael as accuser-archangels or angels of death—the “dirty job” angel.
• There is tension and ambiguity about how (and if) Satan and the Devil are the same; in Revelation, the names are sometimes stacked.

Notable Quotes

"He is the accuser of the brethren." — Fr. Andrew (85:30)
"There is kind of a disjunction in the way that's filtered through to popular thinking now, where they think Satan was an okay guy and then Christians turned him into the devil. No." — Fr. Stephen (67:47)

6. Satan’s “Falling”: Not Once, But Twice? (72:34–86:07)

• Passages like Luke 10 (“I saw Satan fall like lightning”) and Revelation 12 are not about a primeval rebellion before creation, but refer to events triggered by Christ’s ministry and victory.
• Some Church Fathers (St. Andrew of Caesarea) explain these as two separate “falls” — one at creation/fall of man, another at Christ's coming, or as two senses of the same figure’s fall.

"He reads it as one figure who falls twice in two different senses. And so the names then...are referring to the two different senses." — Fr. Stephen (82:03)

7. Azazel: The “Devil” You Don’t Know (90:13–123:41)

• Azazel appears in Leviticus 16 (Day of Atonement): one goat for the Lord, one for Azazel, banished to the wilderness (not sacrificed).
• Azazel is a wilderness spirit, later expanded in Second Temple texts (notably 1 Enoch) as the leader of fallen angels who taught forbidden arts (technology, sorcery, seduction) to mankind.
• The annual expulsion of the goat is an incomplete, provisional measure; Jewish apocalypses longed for a “final” Day of Atonement where Azazel is finally bound and destroyed.

“To him ascribe all sin.” — 1 Enoch, read by Fr. Stephen (121:24)

8. Mastema: The Demon of Demons (132:12–136:19)

• Covered in depth in the Jubilees episode; Mastema is the leader of the disembodied giants' spirits, a true fallen human, not angel.
• Negotiates with God that a portion of his demons can remain to test mankind.

9. Belial: The Lawless One (136:26–146:29)

• Aramaic “Beliol” = yokeless, i.e., lawless, without the “yoke” of God’s law/Torah; the “angel of lawlessness” and anti-Messiah in many Second Temple texts.
• Proverbs 6:12: a man of Belial—an archetype of the lawless man.

"Belial...being lawless, uncontrolled." — Fr. Stephen (138:05)
“A naughty person...the man of Belial." — Fr. Andrew (143:00)

10. All Together Now: Are There Really Many Devils? (149:55–174:05)

• The NT often refers to “the evil one” without specificity; many names/patterns could designate the same reality from different perspectives.
• Identity for spirits is ambiguous: as non-bodied, chaotic beings, their existence and mode-of-action differ fundamentally from human personhood.
• The scriptural aim is not precision demonology, but spiritual discernment and resistance to evil influences.

Notable Quotes

“It’s to help us identify those spirits, to help us discern those spirits.” — Fr. Stephen (182:31)

11. Practical Application: Spiritual Warfare is Not Esoteric Knowledge (183:01–198:28)

• The “devil” figures are not conceptual curiosities, but descriptions of the kinds of temptations and corruptions that Christians must discern and fight.
• Envy, slander, rebellion, seduction, lawlessness, chaos, parasitism—these are works of the devil manifest in personal and communal life.
• True spiritual warfare is not about secret knowledge or exposing conspiracies, but about Christian virtue and love: “Put on the whole armor of God.” (Ephesians 6)

Notable Quotes

“The point of talking about devils, the point of talking about evil spirits, is not so that we gain some esoteric knowledge.” — Fr. Andrew (197:04)
“You can’t do any of this non-deliberately...It only happens when we make a conscientious effort to pursue it, to work on it, to get better at it...and we can cling to what is good, we can flee from what is evil.” — Fr. Stephen (206:45)

Notable and Memorable Moments

• Meta-commentary and humor:
  Early in the episode, playful banter (“You do have to say everything that comes into your head, Fr. Andrew, just because I do.” — C, 04:47) and pop-culture references (to Marvel handbooks, anime, Hellraiser, Baphomet, and Frank Peretti).
• Etymology deep dive:
  • Meaning of “diabolos” (throwing apart) vs. “symbolon” (putting together).
  • “Belial” from Aramaic beliol, “yokeless.”
  • “Naughty” as a translation for Belial in KJV (143:00–146:13).

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 00:00–12:40 | Introduction & scope: why study the “devil(s)” | | 19:26–29:50 | Succession myth vs. biblical narrative | | 30:06–45:19 | Genesis 3—the serpent, envy, and rebellion | | 55:01–72:30 | Satan traditions, accuser role, Samael, ambiguity | | 72:34–86:07 | Jesus saw “Satan fall,” double fall theory, Revelation 12 | | 90:13–123:41 | Azazel—the goat demon, Day of Atonement, Second Temple expansion | | 132:12–136:19 | Mastema—the demon of demons | | 136:26–146:29 | Belial—the lawless one, NT and OT uses | | 149:55–174:05 | Are there many devils? Spiritual identity ambiguity | | 183:01–198:28 | Application—discernment, real spiritual warfare | | 206:01–end | Practicing spiritual discernment in daily life |

Summary Table: Major Devil Figures

| Name | Description/Origin | Primary Scriptural/Literature Source | Major Themes/Traits | |-----------|-------------------|--------------------------------------|--------------------| | The Devil | Envious arch-rebel; lord of death | Genesis 3; Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28 | Envy, rebellion | | Satan | The (spiritual) adversary accuser | Job; Zechariah; Revelation | Accusation, testing | | Azazel | "Goat spirit" of the wilderness; leader of fallen angels | Leviticus 16; 1 Enoch | Seduction, forbidden knowledge, wilderness, origin of evil | | Mastema | Leader of demonized Nephilim spirits | Jubilees | Parasitism, testing humanity | | Belial | The lawless one, anti-Messiah | 2 Corinthians; many pseudepigrapha | Lawlessness, chaos | | Leviathan/Behemoth | Monsters, analogical use | Job, Psalms; apocrypha | Chaos, tyranny |

Tone and Language

• Conversational, witty, irreverently reverent: The hosts combine scholarship, poise, and humor, always circling back to what matters for the Christian’s spiritual life.

“If you're here for weird esoterica, welcome—but God willing, we've executed a good bait and switch here!” — Fr. Andrew (187:42)

Conclusion

The myriad names and stories around the devil(s) reflect overlapping traditions, differing cultural contexts, and ways that evil manifests and tempts humanity. The Orthodox Christian focus is not pedantic demonology, but cultivating discernment and vigilance—fighting evil through “putting on the whole armor of God,” and refusing both sensationalism and secular reductionism.

Memorable Closing Call

"Start learning how to see spiritually what’s going on in us and around us. And through some disciplined effort, get good at clinging to what is good and fleeing from what is evil." — Fr. Stephen (208:18)

For further exploration:

• "The Priest Shall Make Atonement" (previous episode on sacrificial rituals, including the Azazel goat)
• Christology series (on Yehoel, the Angel of the Lord)
• Jubilees episode (for details on Mastema)
• “The Giants” episode (for pre-flood angelic rebellion)

Contact: lordofspirits@ancientfaith.com
Live episodes: 2nd and 4th Thursdays, 7pm Eastern

End of summary.