Podcast Summary: The Lord of Spirits

Episode: The Resurrection and the Life
Date: May 13, 2022
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition—What Happens When We Die?

Overview

This episode explores the Orthodox Christian understanding of what happens when we die, drawing on Scripture, the Church Fathers, and ancient Near Eastern worldviews. The Fathers trace the history of afterlife conceptions in Semitic and Greek thought, explore the impact of Christ’s resurrection on the fate of human souls, and clarify Orthodox teaching about paradise, Hades, and the world to come. They dispel common misconceptions—such as the simplistic heaven-or-hell-after-death model—and focus on salvation as a process rooted in resurrection and participation in the divine life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ancient Conception of Death and the Underworld (00:07–18:25)

• All ancient cultures had a strong belief in an afterlife, as evidenced by burial practices and mythologies. No one thought life simply ended at death.
  • "The idea that the human person simply sort of winks out of existence at the moment of death is kind of unthinkable." (Fr. Andrew, 01:21)
• The underworld (Sheol/Hades/Hel) was a gloomy, monstrous place, often full of demons. All dead went there; distinctions like “heaven and hell” weren’t present.
  • "Sheol was pretty much a horror show … it's not that the demons are in charge … you get tossed in with wild animals and wild animals do what they do." (Fr. Stephen, 05:00)
• Norse and other myths parallel these ideas; even the “nicer” regions of the underworld aren’t good—just less bad.
  • "Hell, Hades, Sheol are essentially synonyms … even the good parts are not that great." (Fr. Andrew, 14:53)

2. Biblical Hope and the Uniqueness of the Hebrew Tradition (18:25–44:16)

• The Old Testament adds a unique hope: The state of Sheol isn't ultimately final, and some texts (esp. the Psalms) contemplate rescue from the grave by God.
  • Discussion of the “Sons of Korah” Psalms, especially Psalm 88 (Psalm 87 LXX)—a depiction of the horror of Sheol but with a longing for deliverance.
• Key textual note: The Hebrew word “Rephaim” (giant-dead) is sometimes confusingly rendered “physicians” in Greek, leading to translation oddities.
  • "Will the Rephaim arise and praise thee?" (true Hebrew sense) vs. "Will physicians raise them up?" (Greek translation error, 31:33)
• Early Jewish writings (Enoch) describe four “caves” in the underworld: righteous, wicked, martyrs, and the ignorant, each with different destinies. The expectation is the Messiah will change this arrangement.

3. The Messianic Age and the Shape of Time (43:22–62:42)

• Orthodox eschatology includes multiple “ages”:
  • Pre-expulsion (Paradise),
  • Post-expulsion to Flood,
  • Flood to Messiah,
  • Messianic age (now),
  • Age to come after the last judgment.
• We now live in the Messianic Age. Christ’s incarnation and resurrection have fundamentally changed cosmic reality ("a literal game changer" – 60:38).
• Final judgment is not a “sentence” passed, but the definitive putting of all things in order.
• Misconceptions: The notion that the apostles believed Christ would return within a single human lifespan is historically inaccurate; "ages" are thousands of years.

4. Paradise, Hades, and the Intermediate State _(89:47–123:57)*

• Paradise is not just a synonym for “heaven” but denotes being in the presence of God—wherever that may be (the Eucharistic liturgy, Eden, etc.).
  • "Paradise is wherever God is…" (Fr. Stephen, 93:30)
• Hades remains as an intermediate state for the unrighteous; it is not synonymous with the “lake of fire” or the final condemnation.
  • "We’ve attached the word 'hell' to a mistaken understanding … [but] hell, Hades, Sheol are essentially synonyms." (Fr. Andrew, 14:53)
• The 40-day tradition after death is more about the experience of the bereaved (the sense of “presence/absence”) than a dogmatic statement about the soul’s metaphysical journey.

5. What is the Soul? Micro- and Macro-Souls _(109:00–122:23)*

• The ancient worldview sees “soul” (anima/nephesh/psyche) as the life principle—and all living things (plants, animals, humans) have souls of various kinds.
  • "A soul is what makes a living thing alive... It literally means 'life'." (Fr. Stephen, 111:03)
• Macro-souls: Larger collectives (families, churches, nations) can have a common “soul”—a “way of being” larger than the sum of their members.
  • "When we talk about souls… there are levels of life below [humans] and levels above that within the creation." (Fr. Stephen, 122:16)
• Modern individualism and materialism makes us struggle to even think this way.

6. The Resurrection and the Life of the World to Come _(130:58–157:04)*

• The Christian hope is not just “going to heaven” but the bodily resurrection and transformation of the whole cosmos.
  • "Our destiny is to be rejoined to our body. Right. Being separated from the body is not good or better." (Fr. Stephen, 136:17)
• Gnostic/Platonic influences (focusing solely on the “soul” going to heaven, or the “beatific vision”) are rejected by authentic Christian tradition.
• Multiplicity is Good: Christianity allows for difference, multiplicity, and complexity—saints are many and diverse, and that is the fullness of God’s image, not a Platonic simplicity.

7. Final Judgment, Eternal Condemnation, and Repentance _(149:02–174:49)*

• The “lake of fire”, “outer darkness” etc., are metaphors and symbols for the state of exclusion from the divine life. This is dehumanization, not mere pain.
• These images are addressed primarily to Christians and serve not as threats for outsiders, but as motivation for repentance—not for speculation about “how many are saved.”
  • "Hell is for Christians... Hell is for me as a possibility." (Fr. Stephen)
• Universalism: It’s not ours to know or declare whether all are saved—our focus is on possibility, responsibility, and repentance.
  • "You can't be a universalist and be a Christian." (Fr. Stephen, 162:28)
  • "Keep thy mind in hell and do not despair." (St. Silouan, 157:44)
  • "Struggle with all your power to gain paradise and do not listen to those who say that everyone will be saved. This is a trap of Satan so that we won't struggle." (St. Paisius the Athonite, 162:41)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "There’s no tale without a teller, but there’s also no tale without a hearer." (Fr. Andrew, 156:42)
• "Paradise is wherever God is. When we gather [for the Liturgy], we're gathering not just with the people here... the church is always full." (Fr. Stephen, 93:30, 95:08)
• "Our destiny is to be rejoined to our body. Being separated from the body is not good or better." (Fr. Stephen, 136:17)
• "Multiplicity is fine." (Fr. Stephen, 143:17)
• "The Holy Spirit is the atmosphere of the world to come." (Fr. Stephen, 150:02)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Ancient Underworld Conceptions: 00:07–18:25
• OT Psalms/Interpretation of Sheol: 18:25–44:16
• Eschatology & Ages: 43:22–62:42
• Paradise, Hades, and the Soul after Death: 89:47–123:57
• Explaining the Soul (Micro/Macro): 109:00–122:23
• Resurrection, Multiplicity, and Final Things: 130:58–157:04
• Pastoral/Evangelistic Takeaways: 165:22–174:49

Conclusion: What Should Christians Do?

• Do not obsess over cosmic geography or the number of the saved.
• Focus on what Christ's resurrection has achieved for you now.
• The “Intermediate State” is not your final form! The Christian hope is for resurrection and participation in the renewed cosmos.
• Repentance is an ever-present necessity, not because of threat, but because of the real possibility of self-destruction and the invitation to real, divine life.
• "Keep thy mind in hell and do not despair." (St. Silouan)

For Listeners New and Old

• This episode provides a tour-de-force on the Orthodox Christian view of death, the soul, and final things—clarifying misconceptions and imparting hope and purpose rooted in Christ’s resurrection.
• It’s both catechesis and comfort, urging a life of repentance and hope for both the living and the dead.

For follow-up questions, contact the hosts at lordofspirits@ancientfaith.com or leave a voicemail at speakpipe.com/LordOfSpirits.