The Lord of Spirits Podcast

Episode: "Thunder Gods and the God Who Thundered"

Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick (B), Fr. Stephen De Young (C)
Date: August 25, 2022
Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition—A Deep Dive into Thunder Gods (Baal, Zeus, and Thor), their Stories, Worship, and Meaning, and How the True God Stands Apart

Episode Overview

In this episode, Fr. Andrew and Fr. Stephen take a sweeping tour through the figures of Baal, Zeus, and Thor, exploring their identities, stories, and cults across biblical, ancient Near Eastern, classical Greek, and Norse traditions. They explain how these storm deities were perceived and worshipped, how the God of Israel interacts with and subverts their myths, and clarify critical differences between the true God and the storm gods of paganism. The episode also investigates how Christian tradition has responded to and even assimilated the stories of such deities—concluding with a robust critique of scholarly claims that Yahweh emerged as a "storm god" among others.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Why Thunder Gods?

• The hosts note that while past episodes touched on Baal, Zeus, and Thor, this episode offers a concentrated, comparative exploration.
• The approach is chronological: Baal → Zeus → Thor, tracking their evolution and the biblical response.

2. Baal: The Old Testament Thunder God and Arch-Rival

[02:58–47:46]

Who is Baal? What Does the Name Mean?

• Baal (pronounced "ba-al" but commonly just "Baal") initially means "lord" or "master" in early Semitic languages and was a title that eventually became a name for a specific god.
• Used generically for pagan gods (“the Baals”—[06:45]) as well as a proper name.

Baal’s Family and Mythos

• Baal is the son of El (the generic Semitic word for "God") and brother (and husband) to the violent goddess Anat ([12:06]).
• The Baal Cycle, an epic myth from Ugarit, describes:
  • Insurrection: Baal revolts against the reigning gods Yam (the sea) and Nahar (the river), representing chaos ([14:41–18:14]).
  • Victory and Worship: Baal defeats Yam, but El remains passive and retreats ([18:07–19:44]).
  • Biblical Parallels: Prophets invert these stories (e.g., Ezekiel 28; Psalm 24), with Baal cast down ([19:44–22:32]).
  • Battle with Mot (Death): A vague, fragmentary story with death/sterility as Baal's adversary; Anat rescues Baal via gruesome violence ([22:41–28:31]).
  • Enthronement: Baal builds his palace in the underworld, sometimes involving rituals with bulls or heifers ([29:11–31:44]); biblical writers invert this, giving Christ the victory and enthronement (Daniel 7, Psalm 24).

Baal in the Bible

• Appears frequently, especially as the god of Tyre and Phoenicia ([20:22–21:03], [34:57]).
• His worship is associated with fertility cults, sexual rituals, and child sacrifice, directly opposed by the prophets.
• Most famous biblical clash: Elijah vs. the Prophets of Baal—demonstrates that Yahweh, not Baal, controls rain/lightning ([36:02–42:12]).
  • "Maybe he's going to the bathroom, maybe he's on vacation" – Elijah’s mocking of Baal’s priests ([41:24]).
  • The competition ends with Yahweh sending fire (lightning) to consume the sacrifice and rain returning ([42:05]).

Baal’s Later Identifications

• Assimilated into Greek (as Zeus) and Babylonian (as Bel/Marduk) pantheons ([43:10–46:42]).
• Worship persists in Syria/Lebanon/Iraq until at least the 3rd century AD ([47:00]).

3. Zeus: Thunder, Succession, and the Greek Inheritance

[49:36–100:21]

Indo-European and Near Eastern Roots

• Zeus’ name comes from Indo-European root dyeus ("sky" or "god"), as in Latin deus, Lithuanian dievas, and Greek Zeus ([65:36–67:46]).
• Greek religion isn’t a pure, isolated tradition—it fuses Indo-European, Near Eastern (esp. Canaanite), and local elements ([56:45–58:00], [63:08–65:06]).

Succession Myth and Divine Relationships

• Zeus becomes preeminent via a "succession myth" (Kronos → Zeus; comparable to El → Baal), constructed by literary figures such as Hesiod ([78:49–80:33]).
• Hesiod systematizes multiple variant traditions into "three generations" of gods (Ouranos–Kronos–Zeus), stitching together Indo-European sky/earth, Canaanite-style council, and Minoan king-hero narratives ([73:19–80:07]).
• Alternative ancient views persist, e.g., some late Greek writers see Kronos and Zeus as both ruling in council—which is closer to Near Eastern patterns ([81:03–81:55]).

Zeus’ Roles and Disturbing Parallels

• Zeus’ mythic deeds: storm-god, cloud-rider, shape-shifting rapist (i.e., impregnating mortal women in animal form), father of "demi-gods"—mirroring Genesis 6's "sons of God" stories ([83:06–87:29]).
  • "[Zeus] is portrayed in a lot of these stories as a shape-shifting rapist… And you're doing that to get away from the way Christianity has supposedly oppressed women?" – Fr. Stephen, [83:06]
• Titans and Giants: The Titanomachy and Gigantomachy parallel biblical giants, watcher angels, and Nephilim stories (e.g., the Titans are imprisoned in Tartarus; see 2 Peter's reference, [88:40–89:08]).
• Daniel and Revelation subvert these myths: The “beast from the sea” is not chaos defeated by civilization, but represents empires like Greece and Rome as the true chaos monsters ([90:10–91:44]).
• Zeus = Baal = The Devil: By the time of the New Testament, Jews and Christians identify these storm gods as versions of the devil ([95:17]).
• Alexander the Great syncretizes Baal as Zeus Boanerges ("Zeus the Thunderer") at Syrian shrines ([95:38–96:16]).
• Gospel Allusion: "Boanerges," the “sons of thunder” (James and John), is a play on local Zeus/Baal cults—Jesus is rebuking vengeance, not endorsing it ([96:22–100:21]).

4. Thor: Thunder God in the Northern Mists

[102:03–156:41]

Thor—What Do We Really Know?

• Virtually everything we know about Norse mythology is through Christian Icelanders, not pagan sources ([105:23–116:34]).
• Only a handful of textual fragments exist from “pre-Christian” pagans; the rest—especially the sagas and Eddas—are authored by Christians, centuries after the “Viking Age” ([110:36–125:15]).
• Modern Neo-pagan worship of Thor is new, not an "unbroken ancient tradition": "Norse neo-paganism is a modern religion. It's a new religion. It's not an ancient religion." (Fr. Andrew, [116:34])

Thor’s Identity and Myths

• Name literally means "thunder": Old English Thunar, etc. ([133:53–134:11]).
• Depicted in Norse myths as red-bearded, strong, brutish, not too bright; patron of farmers and sailors ([137:15–139:16]).
• Married to Sif (always depicted with golden hair; phrase used in skaldic poetry to mean "gold") ([137:40]).
• Weapons: hammer Mjolnir, iron gloves, magic belt; owns magical goats that revive after being eaten ([139:58–140:07]).
• Famous stories:
  • Thrym’s Lay: Thor in drag, retrieving his stolen hammer (a comical tale, highlighting the Norse gods’ lack of dignity and consistent with Christian lampooning) ([140:49–143:31]).
  • Fishing for Jormungandr: Battles the world serpent, barely avoids ending the world ([143:31–145:45]).
  • Ragnarok: At the world's end, Thor slays the serpent but is poisoned and dies; the gods perish, few return ([145:45–147:48]).

Christian Reinterpretation and Appropriation

• Christian writers make the Aesir (Norse gods) legendary human ancestors—euhemerization; their stories are used as literature, not religion ([124:14–125:15], [129:36–130:40]).
• St. Olaf: After Christianization, the imagery/power of Thor is absorbed into the depiction of Christian saints (e.g., red beard, killer of giants) ([153:57–155:20]).
• Most of what survives is literary, not records of rituals or worship ([148:22–150:34]).

5. Is Yahweh just another Storm God? Scholarly Consensus Examined

[159:06–176:14]

• Modern critical scholars often assert that Yahweh developed from a storm god, citing supposed evolutionary development from polytheism to monotheism ([159:15–160:44]).
• This theory is debunked by the hosts:
  • "Current scholarly consensus is that Yahweh is a storm god... That scholarly consensus is based on nothing. There is no actual basis for it." – Fr. Stephen [160:19–160:39]
• Yahweh's earliest attestation is as a God of the southern desert (the Shasu Bedouins), not among Canaanite pantheons.
• Yahweh’s name (verb "to be" in causative form) means "He who causes to be"—i.e., the creator ([170:06]).
• Nowhere, neither in Canaanite nor Israelite sources, does Yahweh appear as the same god as Baal, nor is he assimilated into those pantheons.
• The similarities in language and imagery (storm, cloud-rider, defeating chaos monsters) are polemical and subversive: “It’s not that Yahweh is just another storm god–the biblical texts proclaim that He is the true God, subverting and inverting the storm god’s stories” ([177:07–177:34]).
• Israel’s neighboring pagans never recognize Yahweh as another name for their gods—quite the opposite; there’s deep antipathy ([181:09–181:45]).
• The use of "Elohim" as an intensive plural ("God of gods"), not simply a “royal we” or sign of polytheism ([173:06–175:07]).

6. How Christianity Digests Pagan Story—Polemic, Correction, and Baptism

[187:02–193:45]

• The relationship is never simple continuity but deliberate correction, inversion, and polemic: Christian proclamation is "Who among the gods is like unto thou, O Lord? No one, no one at all." ([192:10])
• Christianity is content to use and retell pagan tales—not as religion but as story, cultural folklore, and even poetic raw material (per St. Basil the Great’s teaching on Greek literature [191:35]).
• The task is not to run from the pagan but to baptize and subvert: "The true rider of the clouds is the Son of Man, who is Christ. The true commander of the weather is Yahweh, not Baal, not Zeus, not Thor." ([190:13])

7. Past the Memes and Fandoms: A Call to Deep Engagement

[195:04–206:18]

• Fr. Stephen critiques how the modern “consensus” forms in scholarship and culture, reducing everything to internet fandom, hero worship, and simplistic narratives.
• We have unprecedented access to Christian tradition, scripture, and learning—every Orthodox Christian (every Christian!) should be responsible for real engagement, not just mindless tribalism.
• "The church today should be the strongest it's ever been... Our ancestors would be desperate just to own a Bible in a language they could read." ([203:35])
• The opportunity is to become the most mature generation of Christians yet, or to be lost amidst internet distractions.
• "You're not just working on doing the best we can, like Snorri, to understand our newfound Christian faith. We have this wealth available to us. And if we take advantage of it, if we stop getting distracted by all the stupidities that come along with the Internet... this can be the time where Christianity, real Christianity, historic Christianity blossoms and comes forth and becomes a force in the world as it never has before." – Fr. Stephen ([204:58])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Time | Quote / Moment | Attribution | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------------------| | 41:24 | "Maybe he's going to the bathroom, maybe he's on vacation..." (Elijah mocking Baal’s prophets) | Fr. Stephen | | 83:39 | "You want to worship a shape-shifting rapist? ... And you're doing that to get away from the way Christianity has supposedly oppressed women?" | Fr. Stephen | | 160:19 | "Current scholarly consensus is that Yahweh is a storm god... That scholarly consensus is based on nothing. There is no actual basis for it." | Fr. Stephen | | 192:10 | "'Who among the gods is like unto thou, O Lord? No one, no one at all.' So understanding all that, then we can make an application of this kind of thing ourselves as we interpret this world and its stories and use them for preaching the gospel." | Fr. Andrew | | 203:35 | "Our ancestors would be desperate just to own a Bible in a language they could read." | Fr. Stephen | | 204:58 | "We have this wealth available to us. And if we take advantage of it... this can be the time where Christianity ... becomes a force in the world as it never has before." | Fr. Stephen |

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:58–47:46]: Baal—origins, myth cycle, biblical encounters, later transformations
• [49:36–100:21]: Zeus—Indo-European/Greek development, succession myth, scriptural subversions, identification with the devil
• [102:03–156:41]: Thor—problems with sources, Christianization, major myths, modern reinterpretation
• [159:06–176:14]: Yahweh and the "storm god" debate; scholarly consensus critiqued; the uniqueness of the God of Israel
• [187:02–206:18]: How Christianity digests pagan mythology; responsibility for deep engagement in faith

Final Takeaway

This episode journeys from the ancient tablets of Ugarit to the icy sagas of Iceland, revealing how thunder gods—Baal, Zeus, Thor—were not merely rivals or forerunners to biblical faith but key foils in the drama of revelation. The Christian tradition meets paganism not with fear or simplistic rejection, but with deep knowledge, subversion, and fulfillment: the God who thunders is not like the gods who thunder. The episode ends with a rallying call to Orthodox Christians (and all Christians) to go deeper, put aside fandom tribalism, and embrace the fullness of their spiritual inheritance.

For further engagement:

• Referenced book for Norse mythology: Norse: A Guide to the Gods and Heroes by Caroline Larrington
• Deep-dive into ancient storm gods: Revisit earlier Lord of Spirits episodes on the divine council, dragons, and chaos
• Reach out: Email lordofspirits@ancientfaith.com or join the show’s Facebook discussion group

End of Detailed Summary